twi's current and past president's personnal behavior do not affect twi's doctrine

[Bolshevik]

Some of these derailed threads seem to come to this. Does the life (professional and personal) of church leadership such as in twi affect the doctrine of the church? Does their lives therefore affect the way the followers think, make decisions and behave?

Edited April 17, 2007 by Bolshevik

[T-Bone]

I would say so… Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say." Sometimes we hear variations of that like "Actions speak louder than words." I even remember hearing VPW say he'd rather see a sermon than hear one – it does sound good to spout that stuff off doesn't it. Rather than say their behavior affected TWI's doctrine - perhaps it would be closer to the truth to say their doctrine was a melding of their behavior and sermons. This in turn is assimilated by followers and would definitely affect how they think, make decisions, and behave. It goes along the lines of what Jesus said in the gospels.

Matthew 5:17-20 NASB

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day did the same thing. Their behavior invalidated the righteous demands of Scripture and was in effect their real message.

Edited April 16, 2007 by T-Bone

[Jim]

Some of these derailed threads seem to come to this. Does the life of church leadership such as in twi affect the doctrine of the church? Does their lives therefore affect the way the followers think, make decisions and behave?

Non sequitur, in that the lives of church leadership *can* affect the way followers think even if it doesn't affect official doctrine.

In traditional churches, the life of leadership has little to nothing to do with doctrine.

In non-traditional churches, where one charismatic leader focuses the entire drive of the church, that individual becomes both the official and unofficial doctrine. For example, how many TWI believers tried Drambouie because it was VPW's drink of choice? Perhaps not a doctrine issue, but an example of how the flock was led by insignificant issues.

[mstar1]

Some of these derailed threads seem to come to this. Does the life of church leadership such as in twi affect the doctrine of the church

To me it IS the doctrine of the church especially in a first generation group that is the work of one charismatic founder.....

Regardless of where we were told the comma goes or how many were crucified, It was modeled to us to be arrogant, aggressive, self centered, self important and generally overly concerned with our own 'rightness'. That was the 'tupos', and why so many 'leaders' (gag) became clones of either Wierwille or Martindale, in everything from the way the acted and dressed to what they talkked about to what they thought about and their general belief that they were the center of the universe

Yea Yea 4 crucified, JCING, blah blah blah, what many people really learned was to become know it alls, it was unwritten doctrine, but doctrinal nonetheless that believers were to place undo reverene to those above them in the chain, and feel superior to thos below them

[waysider]

Personally, I couldn't care less if she sits cross-legged on a purple carpet and prays to the almighty horned toad in the sky.

But, if you are going to preach that homosexuality is devil posession and then proceed to practice it, isn't that a bit like saying"Hey, look at me! I'm posessed!"? Mind you, now, it has not been documented conclusively that such is,in fact, the reality of what is actually going on.

[Free Soul]

The hardened heart brought about by continual sin sure as he** did spread outwardly, & we were all affected by it to one degree or another; what we thought was "taking a stand" was really arrogance mixed with fear of the higher ups.

Just out of curiosity, did anyone ever stand up in a major meeting & say "Hey, this is really fu**ed up!" Did anyone ever have a moment of clarity like that?

I'm not saying I would have - I was just as blinded as anyone.

[markomalley]

Some of these derailed threads seem to come to this. Does the life (professional and personal) of church leadership such as in twi affect the doctrine of the church? Does their lives therefore affect the way the followers think, make decisions and behave?

It seems to me that you are asking three questions.

1. Does the life (professional and personal) of church leadership affect the doctrine of that church?

2. Did the life (professional and personal) of TWI leadership affect TWI doctrine?

3. Does the behavior of leadership affect the way that followers think, make decisions and behave?

Those three questions have some interesting answers:

First, the behaviors can, but do not always affect doctrine. A couple of examples where it has:

• The Church of England. Although members will deny it, the reason why the Church of England split from Rome was so that Henry VIII could get his divorce. Once he got his divorce, it became easier and easier to grant divorces to the followers.
  
• The Great Schism of 1054. Part of the rationale for the schism was that the Bishop of Rome (a/k/a the Pope, a/k/a the Patriarch of the West) was attempting to exert more control over the Eastern Patriarchates (Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria). After that schism, the view on centralized administration in the West (i.e., Rome) became more and more tightly controlled, while the patriarchates of the east remained essentially autonomous. It's a little more complex than that, but there is definitely an evolution.
  

But, on the other hand, it doesn't always need to be that way: there are numerous examples out there were sinful, fallen individuals have still managed to uphold, publicly, correct doctrine (in the terms of the group to which the doctrine refers), regardless of their private sins.

Second, did this happen in TWI?

Well, it seems apparent, based on others' inputs, that some of the doctrinal points were adjusted in TWI to accommodate the particular foibles of the leadership. I'm sure others will do a far better job in outlining the details of this than I ever could.

Third, does the behavior of leadership affect the way that followers think, make decisions and behave?

Undoubtedly, particularly when the leaders end up adjusting their doctrine to accommodate the sins of that leadership. If leadership endorse and promote homosexuality in order to justify their homosexual behavior, the followers, if they remain followers, will adjust their personal beliefs...and potentially their personal behaviors...in accord with that teaching. If leadership teach that giving 15% is the minimum, followers who remain orthodox to that teaching will feel guilt if they give less than that 15%.

The question, in my mind, should reflect how much emphasis is placed on orthodoxy within a given faith group.

[Jeaniam]

Non sequitur, in that the lives of church leadership *can* affect the way followers think even if it doesn't affect official doctrine.

In traditional churches, the life of leadership has little to nothing to do with doctrine.

In non-traditional churches, where one charismatic leader focuses the entire drive of the church, that individual becomes both the official and unofficial doctrine. For example, how many TWI believers tried Drambouie because it was VPW's drink of choice? Perhaps not a doctrine issue, but an example of how the flock was led by insignificant issues.

I know there were many followers of TWI who tried to be a carbon copy of VPW (copied his jokes about thin India paper in the Bible, drank Drambouie, etc.). I always thought the gift of holy spirit was at least in part to enable me to be more myself than a carbon copy of VPW. I mean that the unique 'Christ in me' was designed specifically for me, jeaniam, and wouldn't fit any other believer; and was designed to magnify and enhance the good things about my personality to the end that I was fully equipped for my unique role in the Body of Christ, which no one else (not even VPW) could do as well as I could. BTW I do drink Drambouie, but I started drinking it pre-TWI.

BTW, Mark, in recent years when Charles and Diana wanted a divorce, one of the obstacles was that the official position of the Church of England is that divorce is a sin; a position of remarkable hypocrisy considering its origin.

Edited April 21, 2007 by Jeaniam

[TheInvisibleDan]

Non sequitur, in that the lives of church leadership *can* affect the way followers think even if it doesn't affect official doctrine.

In traditional churches, the life of leadership has little to nothing to do with doctrine.

I don't quite agree. How "leadership" of even the traditional churches conduct themselves can effect a positive or negative impact upon their congregation.

Church scandals have not been limited to cults.

Danny

[rascal]

I dunno...lets ask Jim Jones congregation...or David Koresche...OOPS we can`t!

I`d say quite definately the leaders personal havior affects the spiritual healthiness of the doctrine.

There are reasons why we were warned about false prophets.

[pond]

being a christian to me means following the Christ our Saviour as LORD.

One principle of his teaching is to serve and love one another. to worship and Seek HIM.

If one needs an organized religion to learn the bible or to serve , (the bible does encourage that we felowship and be together to worship God) then how does the teachings of the bible change?

they do not it is still Christ as LORD.

people change they have throughout history wanted kings, wanted men to tell them what to do.

it is a type of idol worship that is hard to overcome. it is the LACK of trusting in an invisable God.

so as far as behaviour affecting doctrine, in theory it is impossible , as Gods words are truth and able to overcome any issue.

but people struggle with TRUTH! and blame either God and HIS truth or other people, who may or may not be speaking the truth.

false teachings or sayings are part of what we are to LEARN about, from whom? The teacher Jesus christ and our own holy spirit.

God is just not into blame, He really does have it all covered, the problem isnt HIS people being right or wrong on doctrines or prophecys , the problem is people who chose to deny God and follow men.