Isnt't there some universal truth to the Universe? Or does it all hinge on what we believe?
Perhaps there is. If there is such a thing I believe that different religions are perceiving but a part of it.
I'd like to believe there is no devil. But that does not stop him/it from existing. And doing harm. and deceiving people.
And I have no problem with you believing that the Devil exists. My belief system does not include a devil.
I don't believe wisdom hinges itself on mankind.
Me neither, but we're the ones perceiving it and interpreting it.
But on the Word. Through God we get our wisdom.
Something we disagree about
Lucifer tried to over take Him.
Something esle we disagree about.
If we try to do that than we are no different than what little creep originally tried to do.
We're looking at things from different angles, different perspectives. From my perspective I'm not trying to take over from a God that I do not believe exists. I can se where from youyr perspective it would look that way.
It's not that God is some great badass. It's just He is trying to protect us from our own silly (ignorant) mistakes.
I'm sure that that's comforting. Not for me though.
Ya know, I got some weird church group up the street from me. the Christiedelphians? Alwawys keep to themsleves. Not a problem but no contribution to our community at all. Weird. Usually church groups invite people over for Easter dinner, or do some community stuff. This group is really weird. Like the Way. Focas inward, not outword doing stuff ya know?
Heard of them, know zip about them
According to the New Testament. The ONE Universal truth. Is through His Lord Jesus Christ. And I don't know about the rest of you guys. But I NEED a savior to save my butt. Not to be smart, but there is NO WAY I am going to heaven on my own works. Christ died for me. Payment made. I don't know any other religion that teaches that.
When I posted earlier, I was not trying to be judgemental or even assign some spiritual aspect to the discussion.
I was simply stating a personal experience that was part of my life many years ago.
My friend was an out-patient with diagnosed schizophenia and took very powerful meds. by RX.
He was very artistic, pacifistic, and had a heart of gold. He was in a fragile state.
When he met these people, he became obsessed with the satanic bible and coven type activity.
There was talk on his part of small animal sacrifise but I never saw any evidence that this was factual.
One of my loving twig mates was kind enough to tell him they knew he was posessed.
I just tried to help him see that he needed to slow down a bit and think about what he was becoming involved with.
This was early '70s and this stuff was quite popular at that time. Remember the Stones album with the 3D cover?
When he died, the police quite naturally interviewed me. They asked me if he was involved with any of this activity and I told them he was.When I pointed out to them that his suicide note was not written in what appeared to be his own handwriting(I had known him for 15 years), they seemed to shrug it off. I don't know any thing about suicide notes but it seemed weird to me.
Of course, my involvement with TWI required that I put it all in my past and move on. Obviously, I was not able to completely do that because here I am 35 years later recounting the event.
I felt I had to say that because even after all these tears, I still miss the big doofus.
When I was a kid there was this story going around that if you went into the bathroom and said Bloody Mary into the mirror three times she would appear. For years I would sing inside my head for fear I would think her name and make it happen.
I had a teacher in junior high school that died when one of the students who professed to be a witch put a spell on her. The teachers car got stuck on train tracks and a train hit her. We all stayed away from that student the rest of our school time together.
I then heard a little bit about Wicca and it sounded like a peaceful group that didn't partake in black magic and such but those things I'd experienced as a youth and the fact that twi taught us it was all from the devil has kept me from even looking into it in fear I would bring something upon myself.
This has been an interesting thread, thank you for how you have interacted with each other and allowed us to learn rather than be angry towards each other in defense of your views making it hard to read through and gain understanding.
I will probably still not put any time into researching it but I also respect Oak and feel a person proves them self out in their actions which speaks louder than anything.
How is Wicca defined then? Can it be identified by a collection of beliefs and ideas or is it a container for different beliefs, religions? Or both?
I was thinking - the basic values and ethics of any religion is what I look at. I don't think all religions are right, some are wrong IMO and some, maybe all, use different kinds of filters and metaphors for understanding things in life that we'd like to understand but that are difficult to do so.
Like Aleister Crowley. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" he wrote. That's a dangerous philosophy if I end up involved in someone else's wilting in ways I don't like. He also wrote "Love is the law, love under will". He was big on will, "Thelema". And sex. What I've read about him, he sounds like a sick freak drug addict, and there's people at the roots of Wicca (modern Wicca, is there such a thing?) like Gerald Gardner who came up with the "Book of Shadows", a journal like collection of personal spells and - stuff? - that some Wiccans write and use. Gardner worked with Crowley's ideas it seems. What's the mean? I don't know enough at this point to understand the way I'd like to.
But then I've read about Wiccans who are more like mystical environmentalists or naturalists, who's beliefs woudn't hurt a fly.
I've always had a hard time getting a handle on Wicca, so the input's interesting here. I have concerns about it, but I'm not sure if the concern is about Wicca itself or the things that end up under it's name, "umbrella" style.
Myself, the spells don't concern me, it's the people that put them together, "cast" them. Same as how right now there could be a room full of Christians somewhere praying for all the evil people in the world to die or be killed, or something. I think however we view "evil", we know it when we encounter it. It's always "bad" to the person encountering it, whatever they encounter.
How is Wicca defined then? Can it be identified by a collection of beliefs and ideas or is it a container for different beliefs, religions? Or both?
Many things that aren't Wiccan get confused with Wicca--for instance Satanic Bible, the animal sacrifice stuff, Quija board( which I personally believe is like announcing to everyone at a crowded bar that your home is always unlocked, come on over any time). Those may be witchcraft but not Wicca. Or they get confused with TV shows like Charmed or movies like the Craft which show fantasy or malevolent witchcraft.
Some Wiccans are really into spells, other never or rarely are interested.
Wicca is somewhat an umbrella term, with traditions being somewhat like denominations of Christianity. So Gardnerian Wiccans would use a Gardnerian book of shadows. Most Wiccan make their own, in fact the whole scrap book thing is very popular among some Wiccans. A coven would have a common one, but individaul members probably have their own personal one.
I don't know numbers, I don't think anyone does, but I would guess that far more Wiccans are not involved in any organized group or coven. Solitaries, families, small groups of friends, nothing on paper that can be counted.
Religious Tolerance .org has some good definitions, but since this is not a revealed with a set scripture religion there are many differences.
Tried to post this above but it didn't format correctly.
From religious tolerance: Their beliefs include:
Wiccan Deities: Beliefs differ: Most Wiccans believe that a creative force exists in the universe, which is sometimes called "The One" or " The All". Little can be known of this force.
Most regard the Goddess and the God as representing the female and male aspects of the All. These deities are not "out there somewhere;" they are immanent in the world.Many regard various pagan Gods and Goddesses (Pan, Athena, Diana, Brigit, Zeus, Odin, etc.) as representing various aspects of the God and Goddess.
The term "Wicca" normally implies that the person's religion is based upon Celtic spiritual concepts, deities, and seasonal days of celebration. Some Wiccans include beliefs, practices and symbols from ancient Pagan religions (e.g. Egyptian, Greek, various mystery religions, Roman, Sumerian) or upon Aboriginal religions (Native American Spirituality, Shamanism). Some Wiccans are actually agnostics, who take no position on the existence of a supreme being or beings. They look upon the Goddess and the God as archetypes, based on myth.It cannot be stressed enough that Wiccans have no supernatural being in their pantheon of deities who resembles the Christian-Muslim Satan. [/font]
Respect for Nature: Wicca is a natural religion, grounded in the earth. All living things (including stars, planets, humans, animals, plants, rocks) are regarded as having a spirit. Many Wiccan rituals deal with bringing harmony and healing to nature. Wiccans tend to share a great concern for the environment.
Gender equality: Wiccans celebrate the sexual polarity of nature. For example, the fertilizing rain is one manifestation of the male principle; the nurturing earth symbolizes the female. Females are respected as equal (and sometimes at a slightly higher rank) to males. A priestess is often the most senior person among coven -- a local group of Wiccans. They aim for a female-male balance in most of their covens (local groups), although men are typically in the minority.
Human sexuality: Sexuality is valued, and regarded as a gift of the Goddess and God, to be engaged in with joy and responsibility, and without manipulation. Wiccans generally accept the findings of human sexuality researchers that there are three normal, natural, and unchosen sexual orientations: heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality. Some Wiccans celebrate "the Great Rite" which involves ritual sexual intercourse. However, it is consensually performed by a committed couple in private.
Afterlife: Wiccans have a wide range of beliefs. Some believe in ancient legends of a Summerland where souls go after death. Here, they meet with others who have gone before, review and integrate their previous lives on earth, and are eventually reincarnated into the body of a new born.
Some believe that after many such cycles -- perhaps some as female and others as male; some lives with a high standard of living and others in poverty; some in positions of power and others suffering oppression -- that the individual accumulates sufficient experience to go on to another level of existence about which we know nothing.
Some see an individual's personality, memory, abilities, talents, etc. as functions of the human brain, which degrades and disintegrates at death. They no not anticipate any form of continuity after death. Other Wiccans anticipate continuity after death in some very narrow senses: That the molecules that go to make up our bodies may in turn be incorporated in other living entities;That our influences on children, friends, and society in general will continue to have influences on the next generations.
Three-fold Law (a.k.a. the Law of Return) The law states that:
"All good that a person does to another returns three fold in this life; harm is also returned three fold."
This belief strongly motivates each Wiccan to avoid attempting to dominate, manipulate, control, or harm another person.
When I was a kid there was this story going around that if you went into the bathroom and said Bloody Mary into the mirror three times she would appear. For years I would sing inside my head for fear I would think her name and make it happen.
No no no Chatty. That's not how you do it! You go into the bathroom, turn out the lights and close your eyes and chant. "I believe in Mary WORTH! I believe in Mary Worth!" 50 times. Than when you open your eyes.........AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! she might scratch you too.
No no no Chatty. That's not how you do it! You go into the bathroom, turn out the lights and close your eyes and chant. "I believe in Mary WORTH! I believe in Mary Worth!" 50 times. Than when you open your eyes.........AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! she might scratch you too.
Thanks for the link WW, that was a fun read. Geez is this a total "girlie" thing or what? I got in trouble in the 5th or 6th grade for leading a group of girls into the bathroom and doing that. LOL! Now they would probably send me to counceling or some such nonsense.
Quantum theory and the theory of relativity arose because there were holes in peoples understanding of the natural world. Prior, many scientist thought all was known. These theories are young, and in time will be modified or thrown out entirely. But they work for now.
This guy jumped from energy to "you can control things with your mind." What a salesman.
So are you going to do the bucket in the closet thing, or just pee in the kitchen sink?
Girl,
I miss the sweet PM's we were sending back and forth. I'm kind of on the edge right now with this VA Tech thing and my nephew safe at home for a few more days only to go back to hell again.
Thanks for the hugs in your words and your avatar just makes me feel lighter all by itself.
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washingtonweather
I guess I would go where I can hedge my bets.
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Eyesopen
Hmmmm...well if it is its not working, someone withhold the paycheck!
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Oakspear
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waysider
When I posted earlier, I was not trying to be judgemental or even assign some spiritual aspect to the discussion.
I was simply stating a personal experience that was part of my life many years ago.
My friend was an out-patient with diagnosed schizophenia and took very powerful meds. by RX.
He was very artistic, pacifistic, and had a heart of gold. He was in a fragile state.
When he met these people, he became obsessed with the satanic bible and coven type activity.
There was talk on his part of small animal sacrifise but I never saw any evidence that this was factual.
One of my loving twig mates was kind enough to tell him they knew he was posessed.
I just tried to help him see that he needed to slow down a bit and think about what he was becoming involved with.
This was early '70s and this stuff was quite popular at that time. Remember the Stones album with the 3D cover?
When he died, the police quite naturally interviewed me. They asked me if he was involved with any of this activity and I told them he was.When I pointed out to them that his suicide note was not written in what appeared to be his own handwriting(I had known him for 15 years), they seemed to shrug it off. I don't know any thing about suicide notes but it seemed weird to me.
Of course, my involvement with TWI required that I put it all in my past and move on. Obviously, I was not able to completely do that because here I am 35 years later recounting the event.
I felt I had to say that because even after all these tears, I still miss the big doofus.
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ChattyKathy
When I was a kid there was this story going around that if you went into the bathroom and said Bloody Mary into the mirror three times she would appear. For years I would sing inside my head for fear I would think her name and make it happen.
I had a teacher in junior high school that died when one of the students who professed to be a witch put a spell on her. The teachers car got stuck on train tracks and a train hit her. We all stayed away from that student the rest of our school time together.
I then heard a little bit about Wicca and it sounded like a peaceful group that didn't partake in black magic and such but those things I'd experienced as a youth and the fact that twi taught us it was all from the devil has kept me from even looking into it in fear I would bring something upon myself.
This has been an interesting thread, thank you for how you have interacted with each other and allowed us to learn rather than be angry towards each other in defense of your views making it hard to read through and gain understanding.
I will probably still not put any time into researching it but I also respect Oak and feel a person proves them self out in their actions which speaks louder than anything.
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socks
How is Wicca defined then? Can it be identified by a collection of beliefs and ideas or is it a container for different beliefs, religions? Or both?
I was thinking - the basic values and ethics of any religion is what I look at. I don't think all religions are right, some are wrong IMO and some, maybe all, use different kinds of filters and metaphors for understanding things in life that we'd like to understand but that are difficult to do so.
Like Aleister Crowley. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" he wrote. That's a dangerous philosophy if I end up involved in someone else's wilting in ways I don't like. He also wrote "Love is the law, love under will". He was big on will, "Thelema". And sex. What I've read about him, he sounds like a sick freak drug addict, and there's people at the roots of Wicca (modern Wicca, is there such a thing?) like Gerald Gardner who came up with the "Book of Shadows", a journal like collection of personal spells and - stuff? - that some Wiccans write and use. Gardner worked with Crowley's ideas it seems. What's the mean? I don't know enough at this point to understand the way I'd like to.
But then I've read about Wiccans who are more like mystical environmentalists or naturalists, who's beliefs woudn't hurt a fly.
I've always had a hard time getting a handle on Wicca, so the input's interesting here. I have concerns about it, but I'm not sure if the concern is about Wicca itself or the things that end up under it's name, "umbrella" style.
Myself, the spells don't concern me, it's the people that put them together, "cast" them. Same as how right now there could be a room full of Christians somewhere praying for all the evil people in the world to die or be killed, or something. I think however we view "evil", we know it when we encounter it. It's always "bad" to the person encountering it, whatever they encounter.
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Bramble
The satanic bible is not Wiccan. I'm not sure who it belongs to, probably the same crowd that does the Black Mass, which isn't Wiccan either.
Wiccans don't believe in Satan as faar as i know. Satan is Christian.
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Bramble
Many things that aren't Wiccan get confused with Wicca--for instance Satanic Bible, the animal sacrifice stuff, Quija board( which I personally believe is like announcing to everyone at a crowded bar that your home is always unlocked, come on over any time). Those may be witchcraft but not Wicca. Or they get confused with TV shows like Charmed or movies like the Craft which show fantasy or malevolent witchcraft.
Some Wiccans are really into spells, other never or rarely are interested.
Wicca is somewhat an umbrella term, with traditions being somewhat like denominations of Christianity. So Gardnerian Wiccans would use a Gardnerian book of shadows. Most Wiccan make their own, in fact the whole scrap book thing is very popular among some Wiccans. A coven would have a common one, but individaul members probably have their own personal one.
I don't know numbers, I don't think anyone does, but I would guess that far more Wiccans are not involved in any organized group or coven. Solitaries, families, small groups of friends, nothing on paper that can be counted.
Religious Tolerance .org has some good definitions, but since this is not a revealed with a set scripture religion there are many differences.
Tried to post this above but it didn't format correctly.
From religious tolerance: Their beliefs include:
Wiccan Deities: Beliefs differ: Most Wiccans believe that a creative force exists in the universe, which is sometimes called "The One" or " The All". Little can be known of this force.
Most regard the Goddess and the God as representing the female and male aspects of the All. These deities are not "out there somewhere;" they are immanent in the world.Many regard various pagan Gods and Goddesses (Pan, Athena, Diana, Brigit, Zeus, Odin, etc.) as representing various aspects of the God and Goddess.
The term "Wicca" normally implies that the person's religion is based upon Celtic spiritual concepts, deities, and seasonal days of celebration. Some Wiccans include beliefs, practices and symbols from ancient Pagan religions (e.g. Egyptian, Greek, various mystery religions, Roman, Sumerian) or upon Aboriginal religions (Native American Spirituality, Shamanism). Some Wiccans are actually agnostics, who take no position on the existence of a supreme being or beings. They look upon the Goddess and the God as archetypes, based on myth.It cannot be stressed enough that Wiccans have no supernatural being in their pantheon of deities who resembles the Christian-Muslim Satan. [/font]
Respect for Nature: Wicca is a natural religion, grounded in the earth. All living things (including stars, planets, humans, animals, plants, rocks) are regarded as having a spirit. Many Wiccan rituals deal with bringing harmony and healing to nature. Wiccans tend to share a great concern for the environment.
Gender equality: Wiccans celebrate the sexual polarity of nature. For example, the fertilizing rain is one manifestation of the male principle; the nurturing earth symbolizes the female. Females are respected as equal (and sometimes at a slightly higher rank) to males. A priestess is often the most senior person among coven -- a local group of Wiccans. They aim for a female-male balance in most of their covens (local groups), although men are typically in the minority.
Human sexuality: Sexuality is valued, and regarded as a gift of the Goddess and God, to be engaged in with joy and responsibility, and without manipulation. Wiccans generally accept the findings of human sexuality researchers that there are three normal, natural, and unchosen sexual orientations: heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality. Some Wiccans celebrate "the Great Rite" which involves ritual sexual intercourse. However, it is consensually performed by a committed couple in private.
Afterlife: Wiccans have a wide range of beliefs. Some believe in ancient legends of a Summerland where souls go after death. Here, they meet with others who have gone before, review and integrate their previous lives on earth, and are eventually reincarnated into the body of a new born.
Some believe that after many such cycles -- perhaps some as female and others as male; some lives with a high standard of living and others in poverty; some in positions of power and others suffering oppression -- that the individual accumulates sufficient experience to go on to another level of existence about which we know nothing.
Some see an individual's personality, memory, abilities, talents, etc. as functions of the human brain, which degrades and disintegrates at death. They no not anticipate any form of continuity after death. Other Wiccans anticipate continuity after death in some very narrow senses: That the molecules that go to make up our bodies may in turn be incorporated in other living entities;That our influences on children, friends, and society in general will continue to have influences on the next generations.
Three-fold Law (a.k.a. the Law of Return) The law states that:
This belief strongly motivates each Wiccan to avoid attempting to dominate, manipulate, control, or harm another person.
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washingtonweather
I do think its funny google has pegged us for candle adds now.
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RottieGrrrl
No no no Chatty. That's not how you do it! You go into the bathroom, turn out the lights and close your eyes and chant. "I believe in Mary WORTH! I believe in Mary Worth!" 50 times. Than when you open your eyes.........AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! she might scratch you too.
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ChattyKathy
You're freaking me out.
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WordWolf
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/ghosts/bloodymary.asp
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RottieGrrrl
Thanks for the link WW, that was a fun read. Geez is this a total "girlie" thing or what? I got in trouble in the 5th or 6th grade for leading a group of girls into the bathroom and doing that. LOL! Now they would probably send me to counceling or some such nonsense.
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ChattyKathy
Thanks wolf of the Word,
I will check it out later.
Haven't posted to you in forever.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I have some nice wicca furniture... :)
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excathedra
i just hate frikkin religion
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ChattyKathy
"Kathy, come out!"
:o
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RottieGrrrl
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!
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ChattyKathy
That freaked me out also.
I ain't never going into the bathroom again. :ph34r:
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satori001
"Believing Equals Receiving"
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Belle
If you pop your blackheads in a black light they turn neon orange......
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Eyesopen
So are you going to do the bucket in the closet thing, or just pee in the kitchen sink?
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Bolshevik
Wow, satori001, just like PFAL.
Quantum theory and the theory of relativity arose because there were holes in peoples understanding of the natural world. Prior, many scientist thought all was known. These theories are young, and in time will be modified or thrown out entirely. But they work for now.
This guy jumped from energy to "you can control things with your mind." What a salesman.
Thanks, that was very interesting.
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ChattyKathy
Girl,
I miss the sweet PM's we were sending back and forth. I'm kind of on the edge right now with this VA Tech thing and my nephew safe at home for a few more days only to go back to hell again.
Thanks for the hugs in your words and your avatar just makes me feel lighter all by itself.
(((((you)))))
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