I will weigh in only my half cents here. My son plays paintball with a freshman in college who is a wiccan. He comes from a wealthy family and seems to play for fun. he has never proselytized my son. we have explained to our son the varying degrees of intensity regarding pagan religion...there are a fairnumber of wannabe "driuds" in New mexico---along with all our alien beilevers--but thats another thread.
tThe few times my son has asked him about whether he does spells or not, he has replied "yes, but only for good"
Either way, we talk about it and explain to our son that using spells for good or bad is not the best method or most sure method for attaining results. We have discussd the idea that using bad spells and cures are unacceptable and in some cases implies criminal intent.
We have talked more after different questions come up, but it seems in the case of this young man more of an amusement and less a "way of thinking".
Ya'll might be surprised to know that many Wiccans believe that spellwork done with out someone's express desire or permission is manipulative magic(as in black, some would call it.) And the witch/spellcaster who does a spell 'gone wrong' is still responsible for the mess, even if they intended good, and receives that return for the mess they made.
This causes many to be cautious in such matters.
You also might be surprised to know that many Wiccans also believe that Chrisrtian prayer is a form of spell work( Wiccans often pray to their dieties)--trying to affect change on a spiritual plane, and that Christians who pray for Wiccans ( or anyone really) to change and become Christian with out that persons permission are trying to override that person's free will--it is a form of manipulative( some would say black) magic.
Most Wiccans believe in a law of returns-- so if what you are putting out there is manipulative, then what you get back will be, too.
I believe this explains a great deal of my negative TWI experience.
Witnessing is seen as interfering in a person' journey to the diety/spirituality (what have you, that is right and fulfilling for them. People should search for themselves.
I have known a few Wiccans/Pagans/Witches/whatever...and they are generally good people. One was a long-time girl scout leader who never discussed it. Another was a friend of mine who is now a grandmother and comes from a long line of I guess "pagans", believing that it predates Christianity in her family. Another was a guy that called himself a Wiccan and was just a jerk.
Overall, I've never met someone who I would consider dangerous because of their beliefs in spells or their worship of nature. Quite the contrary; I've found them to be some of the least aggressive and more balanced people I've known. Most of the world's religions started out with some form of nature worship. I don't think Christians should be critical of a religion that predates theirs just because it's different. Yes, any religion can become a cult and damaging to it's followers, but that doesn't mean everything but one specific group is bad.
If I'm not mistaken, the ARE a few GSers here who have some connection with wicca... I recall at least two, but would rather not suggest them by name, in case I would be incorrect....
I've NOT known any wiccans in real life... and I'd be reluctant to personally look into wicca, even though I've heard similar things about wiccans being peaceful, non-aggressive types.
Ya'll might be surprised to know that many Wiccans believe that spellwork done with out someone's express desire or permission is manipulative magic(as in black, some would call it.) And the witch/spellcaster who does a spell 'gone wrong' is still responsible for the mess, even if they intended good, and receives that return for the mess they made.
This causes many to be cautious in such matters.
You also might be surprised to know that many Wiccans also believe that Chrisrtian prayer is a form of spell work( Wiccans often pray to their dieties)--trying to affect change on a spiritual plane, and that Christians who pray for Wiccans ( or anyone really) to change and become Christian with out that persons permission are trying to override that person's free will--it is a form of manipulative( some would say black) magic.
Most Wiccans believe in a law of returns-- so if what you are putting out there is manipulative, then what you get back will be, too.
I believe this explains a great deal of my negative TWI experience.
Witnessing is seen as interfering in a person' journey to the diety/spirituality (what have you, that is right and fulfilling for them. People should search for themselves.
So then from what they think, praying and getting a desired result can be considered spell work? Is that what doing spells is about, making a change?
I have met a Wiccan or two from time to time. They seemed okay, just an average person with a different religion. When I asked, they said not all Wiccans were witches and not all did spells. I guess it was an assumption on my part that all Wiccans were witches.
So let me ask, if anyone, regardless of their religious brand prays for something bad or asks their God for something bad to happen to someone, is that considered black magic? Would that be the manipulative part you are talking about? What about if someone like LCM uses God to curse and condemn people because he doesn't agree with them. Besides bad Christianity, how does that rate on the scale of being manipulative and black (bad) spell work? Or maybe it doesn't relate?
Just out of curiosity, it is early morning, and I haven't had enough coffee but this strange thought ran through my mind. What is the difference between a coven and a twig fellowship then? Are there any similarities?
I've known some Christians who did some really terrible things too! Maybe we should stay away from all Christians and from Christianity, cause a couple of those dudes were really bad news!
For that matter, I knew some white men who were just awful! Better stay away from them as well!!!
How about this as a novel idea for people who were once involved with TWI:
How about respecting the person's freedom of religion and freedom of association, as long as, in the practice of his/ her religion, he/ she inherently disrespects your rights to yours?
Me, personally, I've known several Wiccans throughout my life. While their beliefs and practices are definitely NOT my cup of tea, I haven't noted that any of them were evangelistic at all in their beliefs. Yes, more than happy to answer questions, but definitely not pushing them down your throat.
Seems to me that most who are out to condemn others for their beliefs need to yank the plank from their own eye and fix themselves and their internal groups, before criticizing others.
I find it funny that somebody preaches about material abundance while driving a wow-mobile.
I find it funny that somebody preaches inner peace, but needs tranquilizers to get to sleep at night.
I find it funny that somebody judges others about sexual purity but gets his/ her needs filled by prostitutes (paid or otherwise).
(No, none of the above are TWI slams...they can fit multiple groups)
Bottom line: live the life that you are advertising, clean your own house, and then start judging others.
Again, this is HARDLY an endorsement of Wicca or Paganism in general; rather, this is an endorsement of their right TO BE Wiccans or other varieties of Pagans.
Regarding evangelism among Wiccans, in general they don't proselytize, although there are certainly exceptions to that.
Regarding "spell work" - it's an effort to change reality in some way, whether it's to bring health, physical prosperity, good grades, parking spots (hey! kinda like "believing ), protection, etc. Some believe that the way to affect this change is by praying to the Goddess or lesser deities, some think that the Wiccans personal power does the changing, but I'm oversimplifying. They put prayer in the same category since in some sense, reality is being changed.
The Wiccans I've met seem to reflect the general population in that some are wonderful people, some are utter @ssh*les. I've never heard of anyone being beaten, let alone to death, by Wiccans, although I'm sure that there are Wiccans who are violent, justr as there are Christians who are.
If your religious beliefs are such that any religion that doesn't have Jesus as its savior is by definition dangerous in that it leads you away from the God of the bible, then you may have a point. But there are many such religions.
If I'm not mistaken, the ARE a few GSers here who have some connection with wicca... I recall at least two, but would rather not suggest them by name, in case I would be incorrect....
I've NOT known any wiccans in real life... and I'd be reluctant to personally look into wicca, even though I've heard similar things about wiccans being peaceful, non-aggressive types.
I'd be one. I'm not exactly a Wiccan, which is a specific type of pagan, but I do consider myself a pagan, and I have celebrated the wheel of the year with Wiccans (as well as other flavors of pagan)
A couple of years before "getting into the Word" I considered myself to be pagan - the reverence of the earth and living things, respect for others, and acknowledgement of the cycles and patterns for life were part of what drew me to it. I didn't belong to a coven or anything of the sort - it consisted mostly of me reading about some of the teachings and practices - integrating them into my life. The "turn off" to me was I didn't exactly buy into the "Earth is our mother" thing - some of that was a little hard to swallow.
Other pagans or wiccians I've met - I've had similar experiences with them. Some were very "earthy" people, hippie-like, while others wore suits. I've met some who are certified clinical chaplains - so there is some organization to the wiccian group, but I don't understand exactly how they achieved that. Anyhow, they were a joy to talk with and learn from - they were less pushy than some of the "Christians" I've known and some even believed in God, as well as the wiccan/pagan beliefs.
How about this as a novel idea for people who were once involved with TWI:
How about respecting the person's freedom of religion and freedom of association, as long as, in the practice of his/ her religion, he/ she inherently disrespects your rights to yours?
Me, personally, I've known several Wiccans throughout my life. While their beliefs and practices are definitely NOT my cup of tea, I haven't noted that any of them were evangelistic at all in their beliefs. Yes, more than happy to answer questions, but definitely not pushing them down your throat.
Seems to me that most who are out to condemn others for their beliefs need to yank the plank from their own eye and fix themselves and their internal groups, before criticizing others.
I find it funny that somebody preaches about material abundance while driving a wow-mobile.
I find it funny that somebody preaches inner peace, but needs tranquilizers to get to sleep at night.
I find it funny that somebody judges others about sexual purity but gets his/ her needs filled by prostitutes (paid or otherwise).
(No, none of the above are TWI slams...they can fit multiple groups)
Bottom line: live the life that you are advertising, clean your own house, and then start judging others.
Again, this is HARDLY an endorsement of Wicca or Paganism in general; rather, this is an endorsement of their right TO BE Wiccans or other varieties of Pagans.
HEY!! Welcome back bro! Good to see you!
-----------
Yeah, Oakspear, I thought I remembered you saying something like that before...
So then from what they think, praying and getting a desired result can be considered spell work? Is that what doing spells is about, making a change?
I have met a Wiccan or two from time to time. They seemed okay, just an average person with a different religion. When I asked, they said not all Wiccans were witches and not all did spells. I guess it was an assumption on my part that all Wiccans were witches.
So let me ask, if anyone, regardless of their religious brand prays for something bad or asks their God for something bad to happen to someone, is that considered black magic? Would that be the manipulative part you are talking about? What about if someone like LCM uses God to curse and condemn people because he doesn't agree with them. Besides bad Christianity, how does that rate on the scale of being manipulative and black (bad) spell work? Or maybe it doesn't relate?
Just out of curiosity, it is early morning, and I haven't had enough coffee but this strange thought ran through my mind. What is the difference between a coven and a twig fellowship then? Are there any similarities?
Cursing would be a very bad thing to do, with dire consequences for the curser. There might be Wiccans who would attempt one, or non Wiccan witches. It would be a desperate last measure, I would think, as in a life or death type issue. I don't know of anyone who has cursed another--the Wiccans/ witchy types I know would more likely do protection spells, or a binding spell, to keep the person away. Or restraining orders.
I'm not very familiar with covens, though I know some folks in the local one and have attended a few open circle things with them. They are not accepting new members, and I wouldn't be interested anyway. I have heard that they have a rigorous study schedule. They wouldn't consider anyone under 18, and determine if someone is a 'proper' person because someone with huge needs and problems should take care of those first. I do not know if the local group is authoritarian or democratic in nature. I could be wrong, but I think the high priestess is high priestess in the coven's business, not of the members personal lives.
The rituals I have attended had nothing to do with cursing or specific people--they were raising energy for the earth, for healing etc or celebrating.
Sometimes the local coven does Saturday seminars at a local new age store as a way of giving. Not to gain members--they are closed to new membership.
I sometimes meet with a couple friends for Wheel of the Year holidays. I suspect many such tiny groups exist, then dissolve, then start again.... There are larger organizations that do ordain clergy, I believe there are a few ordained pagans in the state who do weddings etc.
One thing that would be different than a twig--covens don't meet several times a week, or live together to my knowledge. No one will inspect your sock drawer.They might actually have different beliefs/dieties and practices in their private worship, but in the coven they have agreed to do things a certain way and use certain symbols /tools in common. Wicca is not a revealed or confessed belief system, more one of shared practices.
So let me ask, if anyone, regardless of their religious brand prays for something bad or asks their God for something bad to happen to someone, is that considered black magic? Would that be the manipulative part you are talking about? What about if someone like LCM uses God to curse and condemn people because he doesn't agree with them. Besides bad Christianity, how does that rate on the scale of being manipulative and black (bad) spell work? Or maybe it doesn't relate?
I am not a Wicca but a very good friend of mine is...so I will try to clear up this misconception. First off the Wicca religion as previously noted does not have a "Head guru" like most organized religions. There are local priests and priestesses but they only represent the particular coven that they are associated with. Hence there is no single belief system persay. They all have a single Wicca Crede, which for the most part is adhered to but nowhere in the crede does it dictate who or when magic or spells are to be employed.
So to make the statement that Wicca's believe that Christian prayer is a form of spell casting is not an accurate statement. In general Wicca's believe that most honest prayer, Christain or otherwise, is a supplication to a person's god or gods. A request if you will for intercession from a higher plain of existance as such that would be considered a type of spell. But as we all know not everyone prays like this, many just mouth the words. In addition to this if the prayer is accompanied with candle lighting then candle magic is involked to enhance the prayer, or if it is said in a specific building or special place that has a "place of power" then it is again enhanced. As I said a blanket statement just serves to confuse those that don't know.
Of course if a request for intercession is in the negetive sense, i.e. to hurt someone it of course would fall under the same guildlines. Does this make the Wicca belief wrong, or evil? I don't think so. I actually respect their desire to return to the old religions of respect for the earth and worship of a duel god. Their beliefs dont hurt anyone. Now I of course cannot speak for the individual. There are bad apples in every religion. (TWI just put them all into leadership).
Bramble adds some very good information as well.
As I understand it, Covens only open up membership to those that are invited to become a member. This weeds out the curious that have seen too many movies and the potential bad seed that only wants to stir trouble. And Bramble is correct in that the Priestess or Priest is more concerned with the overall Coven not in getting into everyones business.
WrdsNwrks had a very negative and scary experience with Wiccans. I am not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying those violent and manipulative acts are not hallmarks of the religion, and that that group doesn't sound Wiccan at all to me.
Anyone getting involved in a new group should be cautious and use common sense safety measures, like meeting in a public places, telling someone where you are going, who you are meeting etc.
If I sounded skeptical it is because I have read too many Jack Chick tracts!
Well I might get slammed for saying this, but I hope not. It's just my opinion. But for me I would still stay away from it. I don't care how much you sugar coat this stuff, if it's not from God, the father of our Lord (not getting preachy, just clarifying which God I believe all good comes from) than where is the power coming from?
Wiccans worship creation don't they? God reveals Himself through His creation, and I think it's a cheap shot for Christians to say that people are worshiping creation because they have a heart for animals, as some Christians I know have done. That being said, I've had a couple of experiences with the dark side of the spiritual realm (and no I'm not nuts) and what may seem innocent can be a devouring beast.
On a side note ever see Witchboard with Tawny Kitean (sp?) Man that's a scary movie. About people playing with an Ouija board. I know some people may think it's a silly movie and camp, but I tell ya, that movie scared the hell out of me!
Just a note: a person is a Wiccan, the religion is called Wicca.
They all have a single Wicca Crede, which for the most part is adhered to but nowhere in the crede does it dictate who or when magic or spells are to be employed.
Not to be pedantic (okay, I am being pedantic ) the Wiccan Rede is generally stated as "An it harm none, do as you will" - but that simple statement is interpreted in many, many, different ways, but generally is understood to mean "no spells to hurt people" ...generally
So to make the statement that Wicca's believe that Christian prayer is a form of spell casting is not an accurate statement
It is not the opinion of all Wiccans, but it is the opinion of some, I have no idea what percentage. I have heard it out of the mouths of most of the Wiccans that I know, and seen it on several websites. For all I know there may be no otehr Wiccans in the world that believe this though.
One thing that you can be sure of with Wiccans is that they don't all agree on everything.
well if the spells really worked -- shouldn't there be more Wiccans -- I don't mean that cynically, but from a marketing standpoint, if it is really great--doesn't it get attention?
Just a note: a person is a Wiccan, the religion is called Wicca.
Not to be pedantic (okay, I am being pedantic ) the Wiccan Rede is generally stated as "An it harm none, do as you will" - but that simple statement is interpreted in many, many, different ways, but generally is understood to mean "no spells to hurt people" ...generally
It is not the opinion of all Wiccans, but it is the opinion of some, I have no idea what percentage. I have heard it out of the mouths of most of the Wiccans that I know, and seen it on several websites. For all I know there may be no otehr Wiccans in the world that believe this though.
One thing that you can be sure of with Wiccans is that they don't all agree on everything.
Wicca/ Wiccan sorry just going with spell check on that one. It says there is no such word as "Wiccan". So no insult intended.
I have the Wicca Rede (Sorry bout the "C" it was a fat finger thing) in front of me. I know what is says. But as I said my friend the Wicca(n) said that not all follow everything on it.
As far as the statement concerning Christian prayer, I was actually answering someone else and I believe what I said basically is that since not all practice or adhere to the same set of beliefs a blanket statement like that is not accurate. (Just what you just said).
Well I might get slammed for saying this, but I hope not. It's just my opinion.
I know I won't slam you, you stated your opinion in a pretty respectful manner.
But for me I would still stay away from it. I don't care how much you sugar coat this stuff,
I don't know that any of us are sugar-coating anything, just telling you what is
if it's not from God, the father of our Lord (not getting preachy, just clarifying which God I believe all good comes from) than where is the power coming from?
Now if you have the opinion that all good comes from the biblical God, you probably believe that all evil comes from Satan/The Devil (correct me if I assume incorrectly), so it sounds like you are suggesting that the power comes from Satan.
Wiccans in particular and pagans in general don't believe in the God of the bible. Some subscribe to a variety of creation myths, some don't. Some believe that "the power" comes from gods and goddesses, some add other spirit beings, some believe that there is a universal energy that can be tapped into and manipulated by various methods. Some reject the very idea of the biblical God, some see him as just one aspect of the divine. In short, there's a variety of opinions about it.
Wiccans worship creation don't they?
Hmmm...yes and no. Certainly Wiccans revere nature and respect it. Some see it as a manifestation of the divine, or a blueprint, or a reflection. Again, wide difference of opinion. But the term "worships creation" communicates something different than the typical Wiccan believes.
God reveals Himself through His creation, and I think it's a cheap shot for Christians to say that people are worshiping creation because they have a heart for animals, as some Christians I know have done.
I agree, it is. Many folks on one end of the political spectrum try to mischaracterize animal lovers or environmentalists.
That being said, I've had a couple of experiences with the dark side of the spiritual realm (and no I'm not nuts) and what may seem innocent can be a devouring beast.
Yes indeed. there's a lot that can be said about that subject.
On a side note ever see Witchboard with Tawny Kitean (sp?) Man that's a scary movie. About people playing with an Ouija board. I know some people may think it's a silly movie and camp, but I tell ya, that movie scared the hell out of me!
It's been my experience that Hollywood depictions of witchcraft and spiritualism are mainly hype and b.s.
well if the spells really worked -- shouldn't there be more Wiccans -- I don't mean that cynically, but from a marketing standpoint, if it is really great--doesn't it get attention?
edited for spelling
Good point
In my opinion spells work about as often as prayer does.
Wicca/ Wiccan sorry just going with spell check on that one. It says there is no such word as "Wiccan".
"Spell" check? ^_^ Sounds Wiccan!
So no insult intended.
None taken
I have the Wicca Rede (Sorry bout the "C" it was a fat finger thing) in front of me. I know what is says. But as I said my friend the Wicca(n) said that not all follow everything on it.
Gotcha. Sounds like we're agreeing but expressing it differently
As far as the statement concerning Christian prayer, I was actually answering someone else and I believe what I said basically is that since not all practice or adhere to the same set of beliefs a blanket statement like that is not accurate. (Just what you just said).
Oaks, some believe, some believe some believe. Isnt't there some universal truth to the Universe? Or does it all hinge on what we believe? I'd like to believe there is no devil.
But that does not stop him/it from existing. And doing harm. and deceiving people. I don't believe wisdom hinges itself on mankind. But on the Word. Through God we get our wisdom. Lucifer tried to over take Him. If we try to do that than we are no different than what little creep originally tried to do. It's not that God is some great badass. It's just He is trying to protect us from our own silly (ignorant) mistakes.
OT
Ya know, I got some weird church group up the street from me. the Christiedelphians? Alwawys keep to themsleves. Not a problem but no contribution to our community at all. Weird. Usually church groups invite people over for Easter dinner, or do some community stuff. This group is really weird. Like the Way. Focas inward, not outword doing stuff ya know?
Oaks, some believe, some believe some believe. Isnt't there some universal truth to the Universe? Or does it all hinge on what we believe? I'd like to believe there is no devil.
But that does not stop him/it from existing. And doing harm. and deceiving people. I don't believe wisdom hinges itself on mankind. But on the Word. Through God we get our wisdom. Try to overtake him? You are no different than what Lucifer originally tried to do. It's not that God is some great badass. It's just He is trying to protect us from our own silly (ignorant) mistakes.
How, exactly does one determine which group, religion, denomination, etc. has that one universal truth? Or is it not possible that all groups have parts of the universal truth and none have all of it? Or is it possible that many of us have the same truths but use different labels and terminology to describe them?
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washingtonweather
I will weigh in only my half cents here. My son plays paintball with a freshman in college who is a wiccan. He comes from a wealthy family and seems to play for fun. he has never proselytized my son. we have explained to our son the varying degrees of intensity regarding pagan religion...there are a fairnumber of wannabe "driuds" in New mexico---along with all our alien beilevers--but thats another thread.
tThe few times my son has asked him about whether he does spells or not, he has replied "yes, but only for good"
Either way, we talk about it and explain to our son that using spells for good or bad is not the best method or most sure method for attaining results. We have discussd the idea that using bad spells and cures are unacceptable and in some cases implies criminal intent.
We have talked more after different questions come up, but it seems in the case of this young man more of an amusement and less a "way of thinking".
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Bramble
Ya'll might be surprised to know that many Wiccans believe that spellwork done with out someone's express desire or permission is manipulative magic(as in black, some would call it.) And the witch/spellcaster who does a spell 'gone wrong' is still responsible for the mess, even if they intended good, and receives that return for the mess they made.
This causes many to be cautious in such matters.
You also might be surprised to know that many Wiccans also believe that Chrisrtian prayer is a form of spell work( Wiccans often pray to their dieties)--trying to affect change on a spiritual plane, and that Christians who pray for Wiccans ( or anyone really) to change and become Christian with out that persons permission are trying to override that person's free will--it is a form of manipulative( some would say black) magic.
Most Wiccans believe in a law of returns-- so if what you are putting out there is manipulative, then what you get back will be, too.
I believe this explains a great deal of my negative TWI experience.
Witnessing is seen as interfering in a person' journey to the diety/spirituality (what have you, that is right and fulfilling for them. People should search for themselves.
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Mister P-Mosh
I have known a few Wiccans/Pagans/Witches/whatever...and they are generally good people. One was a long-time girl scout leader who never discussed it. Another was a friend of mine who is now a grandmother and comes from a long line of I guess "pagans", believing that it predates Christianity in her family. Another was a guy that called himself a Wiccan and was just a jerk.
Overall, I've never met someone who I would consider dangerous because of their beliefs in spells or their worship of nature. Quite the contrary; I've found them to be some of the least aggressive and more balanced people I've known. Most of the world's religions started out with some form of nature worship. I don't think Christians should be critical of a religion that predates theirs just because it's different. Yes, any religion can become a cult and damaging to it's followers, but that doesn't mean everything but one specific group is bad.
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Rocky
If I'm not mistaken, the ARE a few GSers here who have some connection with wicca... I recall at least two, but would rather not suggest them by name, in case I would be incorrect....
I've NOT known any wiccans in real life... and I'd be reluctant to personally look into wicca, even though I've heard similar things about wiccans being peaceful, non-aggressive types.
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WordWolf
My interactions with them have tended to be more laissez-faire, types,
that is, they didn't judge me nor want my judgement.
Other than that, they've been cordial, and occasionally evidenced
notable mutual respect.
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FullCircle
So then from what they think, praying and getting a desired result can be considered spell work? Is that what doing spells is about, making a change?
I have met a Wiccan or two from time to time. They seemed okay, just an average person with a different religion. When I asked, they said not all Wiccans were witches and not all did spells. I guess it was an assumption on my part that all Wiccans were witches.
So let me ask, if anyone, regardless of their religious brand prays for something bad or asks their God for something bad to happen to someone, is that considered black magic? Would that be the manipulative part you are talking about? What about if someone like LCM uses God to curse and condemn people because he doesn't agree with them. Besides bad Christianity, how does that rate on the scale of being manipulative and black (bad) spell work? Or maybe it doesn't relate?
Just out of curiosity, it is early morning, and I haven't had enough coffee but this strange thought ran through my mind. What is the difference between a coven and a twig fellowship then? Are there any similarities?
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Abigail
I've known some Christians who did some really terrible things too! Maybe we should stay away from all Christians and from Christianity, cause a couple of those dudes were really bad news!
For that matter, I knew some white men who were just awful! Better stay away from them as well!!!
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markomalley
How about this as a novel idea for people who were once involved with TWI:
How about respecting the person's freedom of religion and freedom of association, as long as, in the practice of his/ her religion, he/ she inherently disrespects your rights to yours?
Me, personally, I've known several Wiccans throughout my life. While their beliefs and practices are definitely NOT my cup of tea, I haven't noted that any of them were evangelistic at all in their beliefs. Yes, more than happy to answer questions, but definitely not pushing them down your throat.
Seems to me that most who are out to condemn others for their beliefs need to yank the plank from their own eye and fix themselves and their internal groups, before criticizing others.
I find it funny that somebody preaches about material abundance while driving a wow-mobile.
I find it funny that somebody preaches inner peace, but needs tranquilizers to get to sleep at night.
I find it funny that somebody judges others about sexual purity but gets his/ her needs filled by prostitutes (paid or otherwise).
(No, none of the above are TWI slams...they can fit multiple groups)
Bottom line: live the life that you are advertising, clean your own house, and then start judging others.
Again, this is HARDLY an endorsement of Wicca or Paganism in general; rather, this is an endorsement of their right TO BE Wiccans or other varieties of Pagans.
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Oakspear
Regarding evangelism among Wiccans, in general they don't proselytize, although there are certainly exceptions to that.
Regarding "spell work" - it's an effort to change reality in some way, whether it's to bring health, physical prosperity, good grades, parking spots (hey! kinda like "believing
), protection, etc. Some believe that the way to affect this change is by praying to the Goddess or lesser deities, some think that the Wiccans personal power does the changing, but I'm oversimplifying. They put prayer in the same category since in some sense, reality is being changed.
The Wiccans I've met seem to reflect the general population in that some are wonderful people, some are utter @ssh*les. I've never heard of anyone being beaten, let alone to death, by Wiccans, although I'm sure that there are Wiccans who are violent, justr as there are Christians who are.
If your religious beliefs are such that any religion that doesn't have Jesus as its savior is by definition dangerous in that it leads you away from the God of the bible, then you may have a point. But there are many such religions.
I'd be one. I'm not exactly a Wiccan, which is a specific type of pagan, but I do consider myself a pagan, and I have celebrated the wheel of the year with Wiccans (as well as other flavors of pagan)Link to comment
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ChasUFarley
A couple of years before "getting into the Word" I considered myself to be pagan - the reverence of the earth and living things, respect for others, and acknowledgement of the cycles and patterns for life were part of what drew me to it. I didn't belong to a coven or anything of the sort - it consisted mostly of me reading about some of the teachings and practices - integrating them into my life. The "turn off" to me was I didn't exactly buy into the "Earth is our mother" thing - some of that was a little hard to swallow.
Other pagans or wiccians I've met - I've had similar experiences with them. Some were very "earthy" people, hippie-like, while others wore suits. I've met some who are certified clinical chaplains - so there is some organization to the wiccian group, but I don't understand exactly how they achieved that. Anyhow, they were a joy to talk with and learn from - they were less pushy than some of the "Christians" I've known and some even believed in God, as well as the wiccan/pagan beliefs.
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Rocky
HEY!! Welcome back bro! Good to see you!
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Yeah, Oakspear, I thought I remembered you saying something like that before...
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Bramble
Cursing would be a very bad thing to do, with dire consequences for the curser. There might be Wiccans who would attempt one, or non Wiccan witches. It would be a desperate last measure, I would think, as in a life or death type issue. I don't know of anyone who has cursed another--the Wiccans/ witchy types I know would more likely do protection spells, or a binding spell, to keep the person away. Or restraining orders.
I'm not very familiar with covens, though I know some folks in the local one and have attended a few open circle things with them. They are not accepting new members, and I wouldn't be interested anyway. I have heard that they have a rigorous study schedule. They wouldn't consider anyone under 18, and determine if someone is a 'proper' person because someone with huge needs and problems should take care of those first. I do not know if the local group is authoritarian or democratic in nature. I could be wrong, but I think the high priestess is high priestess in the coven's business, not of the members personal lives.
The rituals I have attended had nothing to do with cursing or specific people--they were raising energy for the earth, for healing etc or celebrating.
Sometimes the local coven does Saturday seminars at a local new age store as a way of giving. Not to gain members--they are closed to new membership.
I sometimes meet with a couple friends for Wheel of the Year holidays. I suspect many such tiny groups exist, then dissolve, then start again.... There are larger organizations that do ordain clergy, I believe there are a few ordained pagans in the state who do weddings etc.
One thing that would be different than a twig--covens don't meet several times a week, or live together to my knowledge. No one will inspect your sock drawer.They might actually have different beliefs/dieties and practices in their private worship, but in the coven they have agreed to do things a certain way and use certain symbols /tools in common. Wicca is not a revealed or confessed belief system, more one of shared practices.
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Eyesopen
I am not a Wicca but a very good friend of mine is...so I will try to clear up this misconception. First off the Wicca religion as previously noted does not have a "Head guru" like most organized religions. There are local priests and priestesses but they only represent the particular coven that they are associated with. Hence there is no single belief system persay. They all have a single Wicca Crede, which for the most part is adhered to but nowhere in the crede does it dictate who or when magic or spells are to be employed.
So to make the statement that Wicca's believe that Christian prayer is a form of spell casting is not an accurate statement. In general Wicca's believe that most honest prayer, Christain or otherwise, is a supplication to a person's god or gods. A request if you will for intercession from a higher plain of existance as such that would be considered a type of spell. But as we all know not everyone prays like this, many just mouth the words. In addition to this if the prayer is accompanied with candle lighting then candle magic is involked to enhance the prayer, or if it is said in a specific building or special place that has a "place of power" then it is again enhanced. As I said a blanket statement just serves to confuse those that don't know.
Of course if a request for intercession is in the negetive sense, i.e. to hurt someone it of course would fall under the same guildlines. Does this make the Wicca belief wrong, or evil? I don't think so. I actually respect their desire to return to the old religions of respect for the earth and worship of a duel god. Their beliefs dont hurt anyone. Now I of course cannot speak for the individual. There are bad apples in every religion. (TWI just put them all into leadership).
Bramble adds some very good information as well.
As I understand it, Covens only open up membership to those that are invited to become a member. This weeds out the curious that have seen too many movies and the potential bad seed that only wants to stir trouble. And Bramble is correct in that the Priestess or Priest is more concerned with the overall Coven not in getting into everyones business.
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Bramble
WrdsNwrks had a very negative and scary experience with Wiccans. I am not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying those violent and manipulative acts are not hallmarks of the religion, and that that group doesn't sound Wiccan at all to me.
Anyone getting involved in a new group should be cautious and use common sense safety measures, like meeting in a public places, telling someone where you are going, who you are meeting etc.
If I sounded skeptical it is because I have read too many Jack Chick tracts!
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markomalley
Rocky,
Thanks
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RottieGrrrl
Well I might get slammed for saying this, but I hope not. It's just my opinion. But for me I would still stay away from it. I don't care how much you sugar coat this stuff, if it's not from God, the father of our Lord (not getting preachy, just clarifying which God I believe all good comes from) than where is the power coming from?
Wiccans worship creation don't they? God reveals Himself through His creation, and I think it's a cheap shot for Christians to say that people are worshiping creation because they have a heart for animals, as some Christians I know have done. That being said, I've had a couple of experiences with the dark side of the spiritual realm (and no I'm not nuts) and what may seem innocent can be a devouring beast.
On a side note ever see Witchboard with Tawny Kitean (sp?) Man that's a scary movie. About people playing with an Ouija board. I know some people may think it's a silly movie and camp, but I tell ya, that movie scared the hell out of me!
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Oakspear
Just a note: a person is a Wiccan, the religion is called Wicca.
Not to be pedantic (okay, I am being pedanticOne thing that you can be sure of with Wiccans is that they don't all agree on everything.
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
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washingtonweather
well if the spells really worked -- shouldn't there be more Wiccans -- I don't mean that cynically, but from a marketing standpoint, if it is really great--doesn't it get attention?
edited for spelling
Edited by washingtonweatherLink to comment
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Eyesopen
Wicca/ Wiccan sorry just going with spell check on that one. It says there is no such word as "Wiccan". So no insult intended.
I have the Wicca Rede (Sorry bout the "C" it was a fat finger thing) in front of me. I know what is says. But as I said my friend the Wicca(n) said that not all follow everything on it.
As far as the statement concerning Christian prayer, I was actually answering someone else and I believe what I said basically is that since not all practice or adhere to the same set of beliefs a blanket statement like that is not accurate. (Just what you just said).
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Oakspear
Wiccans in particular and pagans in general don't believe in the God of the bible. Some subscribe to a variety of creation myths, some don't. Some believe that "the power" comes from gods and goddesses, some add other spirit beings, some believe that there is a universal energy that can be tapped into and manipulated by various methods. Some reject the very idea of the biblical God, some see him as just one aspect of the divine. In short, there's a variety of opinions about it.
Hmmm...yes and no. Certainly Wiccans revere nature and respect it. Some see it as a manifestation of the divine, or a blueprint, or a reflection. Again, wide difference of opinion. But the term "worships creation" communicates something different than the typical Wiccan believes.I agree, it is. Many folks on one end of the political spectrum try to mischaracterize animal lovers or environmentalists.Yes indeed. there's a lot that can be said about that subject. It's been my experience that Hollywood depictions of witchcraft and spiritualism are mainly hype and b.s. Good pointIn my opinion spells work about as often as prayer does.
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Oakspear
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likeaneagle
Never/Nor will I sacrifice to a living thing or a dead God, nor will I worship myself...
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RottieGrrrl
Oaks, some believe, some believe some believe. Isnt't there some universal truth to the Universe? Or does it all hinge on what we believe? I'd like to believe there is no devil.
But that does not stop him/it from existing. And doing harm. and deceiving people. I don't believe wisdom hinges itself on mankind. But on the Word. Through God we get our wisdom. Lucifer tried to over take Him. If we try to do that than we are no different than what little creep originally tried to do. It's not that God is some great badass. It's just He is trying to protect us from our own silly (ignorant) mistakes.
OT
Ya know, I got some weird church group up the street from me. the Christiedelphians? Alwawys keep to themsleves. Not a problem but no contribution to our community at all. Weird. Usually church groups invite people over for Easter dinner, or do some community stuff. This group is really weird. Like the Way. Focas inward, not outword doing stuff ya know?
Edited by RottieGrrrlLink to comment
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Abigail
How, exactly does one determine which group, religion, denomination, etc. has that one universal truth? Or is it not possible that all groups have parts of the universal truth and none have all of it? Or is it possible that many of us have the same truths but use different labels and terminology to describe them?
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