I am surprised, shocked and dismayed that Mike is applying five senses knowledge to the issue of mirrors when it is totally obvious he really should be busying himself finding Mr. Weirwille's thoughts on every aspect of mirrors.
Perhaps studying mirrors from the standpoint of their use in more abject flattery and worship of Mr. Weirwille, his unsurpassed place in history, his importance to the proper function of the universe, his unappreciated stature as an effervescent oracle of philosophical vigor. And certainly with enough parsing, Mr. Weirwille's obsessively detailed thoughts on the only right way to clean mirrors could be found, absorbed, appreciated, retemorized, repeated, dissected, applied and reflected upon like sparkling diadems.
After all, a man whose intense philosophical introspection on the issue of the only correct way of emptying and sanitising porto-potties and the appropriate number of sheets of toilet paper to use certainly must have expounded on mirrors at one point or another, especially the careful detailed cleaning and appropriate maintanance thereof!
Mike, you disappoint me! How quickly even YOU forget the roots of your personhood, the foundation of the very meaning of your sallow existence, the man who taught you everything that you know!
There's other classic quotes from that thread, but this one caused me to have to *clean the screen*!
Well DMiller, it's a healthy thing to hear a different point of view without instantly thinking they are wrong. I would still be in twi if I weren't willing to change my mind and hear a different point of view (thank you Waydale!!!!!!!!!!!). Of course different points of view expressed in an obnoxious way take more patience.
But back to topic....re-evaluate to a degree. More like chunking it all and starting over. My biggest challenge in Bible study right now is keeping my mouth shut (Greek, Hebrew, yada, yada). Why confuse or mislead them with something that did it to me? That is my course for now. I may put some twi stuff back later. I may not.
Another spot -- you're right. It IS healthy to welcome and consider opposing viewpoints.
However -- given the indoctrination handed down by twi, it was something I rarely indulged in.
When I first left, I tried a few other churches. Why?? I don't know.
Perhaps a sense of wanting to belong, perhaps a sense of *duty*,
or perhaps just an ingrained thing from childhood. Who knows?? I don't.
But regardless of *whatever-the-reason-was*, I attended the new groups with an attitude.
I walked into the service with my Bullinger Bible (complete with notes from twi classes),
and sat in the back waiting for them to say something contradictory,
to what I had (cough!!) already determined to be true.
Needless to say -- I was missing out on the main purpose of the service.
It took me a while to leave the attitude behind, and see the main purpose of the service.
Twi did a good job of messing with my head, convincing me that they (and ONLY they) were right.
True story ---
A friend of mine (wonderful cello player) suggested I check out one of the Baptist churches here in town.
She attended it occassionally and I was impressed that she liked it,
because she comes from a Oneness Pentecostal background.
(FYI -- Oneness Pentecostal teaches that Jesus is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all rolled into one).
For her to suggest a trinitarian church piqued my interest, so I went one Sunday.
Imagine my surprise, when I walked in and saw 4 or 5 ex-way folks there!
They were all glad (and surprised) to see me. No condemnation or any of that crap.
After the service they introduced me to the pastor, and told him I played fiddle, mandolin, banjo, and guitar.
The pastor never asked about what I thought about the sermon, or the service that day.
He started talking music, he was interested in me as a person.
He broke the ice that twi had placed upon my heart.
It was from that point on that I started realizing that these folks are people -- just like me.
It was at this point I saw that they have ideas and beliefs as well -- though not necessarily the one's I hold.
Are they right and I'm wrong? Am I right and they are wrong?
These days I don't care about that.
While I can still be opinionated about certain things,
it's much easier (these days) to consider what other's think,
and see their viewpoint as valid, rather than dismissing it summarily.
I saw a bumper sticker on a car here the other day, and it says it all.
My husband has begun attending the church that I dragged the kiddoes to for years after leaving twi. He rarely attended before, but when he did....we would go sit ramrod straight WAITING to be offended by the doctrine...determined to pick apart every inaccuracy.
Well I finally gave up trying to handle 7 small kids in church by myself....and quit as well...
The two youngest this year started begging their Daddy to attend...they drag him there each sunday....we have come to realise.......that there is so much there to enjoy when we quit being insufferable, arrogant know it alls
Mark could not attend last sunday and asked me to take the little girls...the youngest wanted to be sung happy birthday to.
Well I went...it has been probably 4 or 5 years since I attended. Well it came time for the *joys and concerns* to be presented ... and someone made mention that *Cathy* was here...like they do to acknowledge and greet a visitor... Well the guy at the front of the church running the meeting looked up spotting me and said *aw Cathy??? why she`s family* and waved his hand in a dismissing guesture.
I have to tell you, that was one of the nicest things anybody has ever said to me. Here these people...that I had been so arrogant with, so stifly dissaproving of during our early post cult days...so vital in our healing.....people whom I was uncomfortable around remembering how harsh and judgemental I was as we were determined to bring these fools around to OUR way of thinking years ago.....in spite of or rudeness and our idiosyncracies...our incomprehensible behavior and wierd beliefs....and only having attended sporadically for years now....They STILL considered me family...and MEANT it!!!
I cannot explain how moved I was. Only that I want to go back and sit with my *church family* sing together, pray together, share joys and concerns together and read the scripture together.
Mike isn't derailing in my opinion. Although I didn't expect his appearance (nobody expects...) his belief that PFAL is revelation from God, or whatever the exact phrasing is (sorry Mike, I've not read all your recent posts) isn't any more circular than a belief in an inerrant original text of the bible that no one has or will ever have. Although i do think that the evidence of plagiarism is pretty solid proof that Wierwille borrowed, cut & pasted, etc. and didn't receive PFAL theopneustos. Mike knows my opinion, knows I disagree with him, and I know that he disagrees with him. Let him play with the rest of us.
I'm not in this discussion except to say that mirrors DO NOT REVERSE LEFT AND RIGHT. They simply reflect.
What's on your left stays on your left. Lift your left hand in front of a mirror and the hand on your left in the mirror raises. It only makes sense that the same would be true for top and bottom. (The problem comes from thinking it's backwards because we are so used to things being reversed when we meet a person and shake hands.)
A mirror is not a lens....
I'm sure there was a point in bringing up this mirror thingie - and I can imagine that it's going to have to do with wrong perceptions due to habit or whatever.
OK - done - carry on with re-evaluating your perceptions of God and the Bible.
Have you ever thought of re-evaluating your perceptions on mirror reflection? I can help.
I'm talking about a re-reflection on mirrors.
*******
Thank you much, modcat5, Raf, and Oak.
*******
Oakspear,
You wrote: "...his belief that PFAL is revelation from God... isn't any more circular than a belief in an inerrant original text of the bible that no one has or will ever have."
I agree. I've never claimed to have a derivation or a proof, and I have pointed this out often. Thinking logically within a system is required, but logically deriving the system is impossible.
***
You wrote: "...Although i do think that the evidence of plagiarism is pretty solid proof that Wierwille borrowed, cut & pasted, etc. and didn't receive PFAL theopneustos."
You're assuming that theopneustos only comes in a "divine dictation" style or mode.
Dr has testified much that his teachers got some revelations from God and that he merely put them all together. The direct revelation Dr got was more often on the lines of knowing what to collect and what not to collect. There were several varieties in the style or mode of revelation that went into PFAL, and I've posted here on all of them at various times. Dr specified all this for us on tapes and in writing, that is was NOT just the divine dictation thing that happened.
*******
Again, I thank all of the above for their decent approach to conversation, and Paw too, for letting me post.
Mike - I have too much on my plate to take on a guru. I have two girls that need my attention far more than I need to re-evaluate the workings of mirrors.
As far as re-evaluating the other parts of my life and beliefs goes - I'm way ahead of you. I've made some recent mistakes - which only means I have more lessons to learn.
You and I have been down the PFAL road and the subsequent fork - I'll let you follow your path and I'll follow mine.
My answer can pretty much be formed from bits of others' posts:
Soon after I left, it was almost like a veil was lifted from my eyes and most of the twi doctrine simply unraveled before my eyes... --Groucho Marx, Jr.
The number of errors undermined any trust that I might have had in either man's ability to accurately teach the bible. -- Oakspear
It was at this point I saw that they [other people] have ideas and beliefs as well -- though not necessarily the one's I hold. Are they right and I'm wrong? Am I right and they are wrong? These days I don't care about that. --Bolshevik
About all I can manage these days is *Love God and Love my neighbor* It is simple and it works for me after all of the years of *straining at gnats* --Rascal
OK somebody once asked [For those who have changed their beliefs, how did the circumstances of your exit from TWI influence your subsequent religious/spiritual beliefs?]
Mine came the other way round. It was a change of beliefs that influenced my exit from the way. I doubt however, if I would have had the balls to change my beliefs if circumstances had not happened the way they did.
I was clergy and a corps grad. In the mid 80's C Geer read the POP paper and then called a clergy meeting at HQ where he reamed out the board of trustees and they basically went along. In the hub-bub lots of my peers were trying to figure out who to stand with and who has the most accurate understanding of the word.
I took it one step further and asked myself, why I even believed there was "a word" or why I believed the bible was the word of god. The answer was I only believed it because of some preacher from Ohio that I'd listened to many years ago. I decided I needed better evidence than that. So I decided not to stay with the way at all.
Turns out I never did find the evidence and I found that when I stopped looking for answers to every question my life got a whole lot better.
My husband and I left in 89 after receiving L@y's Sunday morning ranting tape. You know the one where he talks about how great he was. Our local leadership was fired for absolutely no Godly reason and we knew the leaders at HQ were not doing God's word. I also had serious problems with some of the doctrinal issues especially the abortion issue. It was very evident that the leaders at HQ were not living love and that the ministry was basically finished IMHO.
I began re-evaluating what I learned from PFAL when the Ex-Way group I was involved with started teaching new things. I saw how what they taught made more sense than what I had heard before and fit with the Bible better. But then the group started getting into the same "we are right and everybody else is wrong" mentality that TWI had, and when I questioned that, I was "asked" to leave. I went through a period of time where I didn't know what I believed anymore, but slowly I came to form opinions by, (1) reading the Bible IN CONTEXT and not taking isolated verses out of it; and (2) considering what other viewpoints said (horror of horrors!) and seeing what made the most sense. My current belief system is based, not on the "revelation" or "anointing" of one person, but things that many Biblical scholars have recognized for many many years. The primary subject that Jesus spoke about is the coming Kingdom of God, and everything else in the Bible is more easily understood in light of that. For further detail and elaboration, see my website, www.godskingdomfirst.net. I'm not selling anything, I just put it together so that anyone could read systematically what I have come to believe. And for the first time in my life I can say that I believe what I do because I've checked it out, not because somebody or some group told me what I had to believe.
Looks like you spent some time under VF's group. Am I right?
I only ask because I spent some time there too, and I see a lot of similarities.
Actually I was with the group in Syracuse, NY. It was the leader of that group that first taught about the Kingdom of God among the Ex-TWI groups in NY. VF embraced it but the leader in Syracuse soon split from VF and anyone else who disagreed with him, and that's when I got out of ex-TWI-land. I still like most of what VF is teaching though.
We left soon after we heard what happened at the clergy meeting in Nov. '86.
I never was much of a study bug but my hubs sure was and with all that free time he examined every "jot and tittle" of what we had been taught. He bulldozed his wall of beliefs but I could only handle one brick at a time.
I would argue with him every step of the way not because I was so sure twi's version of Christianity was right, but because I wasn't about to jump on someone else's bandwagon. After Twi I was all bandwagoned out. T-Bone was never one of those "I'm the head, dam n it!" husbands anyway and never tried to force me into changing my beliefs.
There's alot of doctrine we don't agree on...he's pretty much a trinitarian and I'm pretty much not...but we agree on the things that matter, like salvation and no adultry or stealing...ten commandments-type stuff.
I spent more time than I ever cared to doing word studies and underlining things in the bible during my twi tenure. I was a Christian long before I got into twi and I always had a strong prayer life, so those things didn't change.
When something didn't make sense to me in twi I just figured it was because I wasn't spiritual enough. When we left I turned my brain back on and decided if something didn't make sense to me, I'd either throw it on the turd pile or in the "farther along we'll know all about it" room.
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waysider
Thanks, Mike
That helped me a great deal.
I now understand how to use the "ignore" feature.
(Something I hadn't even considered until now.)
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dmiller
Thanks for that link Mike!
A blast from the past!!
Where's Larry P2 anyway (these days)?? ;)
There's other classic quotes from that thread, but this one caused me to have to *clean the screen*!
Sorry for the de-rail. Back to topic. :D
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dmiller
Another spot -- you're right. It IS healthy to welcome and consider opposing viewpoints.
However -- given the indoctrination handed down by twi, it was something I rarely indulged in.
When I first left, I tried a few other churches. Why?? I don't know.
Perhaps a sense of wanting to belong, perhaps a sense of *duty*,
or perhaps just an ingrained thing from childhood. Who knows?? I don't.
But regardless of *whatever-the-reason-was*, I attended the new groups with an attitude.
I walked into the service with my Bullinger Bible (complete with notes from twi classes),
and sat in the back waiting for them to say something contradictory,
to what I had (cough!!) already determined to be true.
Needless to say -- I was missing out on the main purpose of the service.
It took me a while to leave the attitude behind, and see the main purpose of the service.
Twi did a good job of messing with my head, convincing me that they (and ONLY they) were right.
True story ---
A friend of mine (wonderful cello player) suggested I check out one of the Baptist churches here in town.
She attended it occassionally and I was impressed that she liked it,
because she comes from a Oneness Pentecostal background.
(FYI -- Oneness Pentecostal teaches that Jesus is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all rolled into one).
For her to suggest a trinitarian church piqued my interest, so I went one Sunday.
Imagine my surprise, when I walked in and saw 4 or 5 ex-way folks there!
They were all glad (and surprised) to see me. No condemnation or any of that crap.
After the service they introduced me to the pastor, and told him I played fiddle, mandolin, banjo, and guitar.
The pastor never asked about what I thought about the sermon, or the service that day.
He started talking music, he was interested in me as a person.
He broke the ice that twi had placed upon my heart.
It was from that point on that I started realizing that these folks are people -- just like me.
It was at this point I saw that they have ideas and beliefs as well -- though not necessarily the one's I hold.
Are they right and I'm wrong? Am I right and they are wrong?
These days I don't care about that.
While I can still be opinionated about certain things,
it's much easier (these days) to consider what other's think,
and see their viewpoint as valid, rather than dismissing it summarily.
I saw a bumper sticker on a car here the other day, and it says it all.
Minds Are Like Parachutes ~~~
They ONLY Function When Open
:)
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rascal
PRECISELY Dave :)
My husband has begun attending the church that I dragged the kiddoes to for years after leaving twi. He rarely attended before, but when he did....we would go sit ramrod straight WAITING to be offended by the doctrine...determined to pick apart every inaccuracy.
Well I finally gave up trying to handle 7 small kids in church by myself....and quit as well...
The two youngest this year started begging their Daddy to attend...they drag him there each sunday....we have come to realise.......that there is so much there to enjoy when we quit being insufferable, arrogant know it alls
Mark could not attend last sunday and asked me to take the little girls...the youngest wanted to be sung happy birthday to.
Well I went...it has been probably 4 or 5 years since I attended. Well it came time for the *joys and concerns* to be presented ... and someone made mention that *Cathy* was here...like they do to acknowledge and greet a visitor... Well the guy at the front of the church running the meeting looked up spotting me and said *aw Cathy??? why she`s family* and waved his hand in a dismissing guesture.
I have to tell you, that was one of the nicest things anybody has ever said to me. Here these people...that I had been so arrogant with, so stifly dissaproving of during our early post cult days...so vital in our healing.....people whom I was uncomfortable around remembering how harsh and judgemental I was as we were determined to bring these fools around to OUR way of thinking years ago.....in spite of or rudeness and our idiosyncracies...our incomprehensible behavior and wierd beliefs....and only having attended sporadically for years now....They STILL considered me family...and MEANT it!!!
I cannot explain how moved I was. Only that I want to go back and sit with my *church family* sing together, pray together, share joys and concerns together and read the scripture together.
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Bolshevik
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Oakspear
Mike isn't derailing in my opinion. Although I didn't expect his appearance (nobody expects...) his belief that PFAL is revelation from God, or whatever the exact phrasing is (sorry Mike, I've not read all your recent posts) isn't any more circular than a belief in an inerrant original text of the bible that no one has or will ever have. Although i do think that the evidence of plagiarism is pretty solid proof that Wierwille borrowed, cut & pasted, etc. and didn't receive PFAL theopneustos. Mike knows my opinion, knows I disagree with him, and I know that he disagrees with him. Let him play with the rest of us.
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Raf
Agreed. I ain't in his fan club, but he deserves his say (much as I despise what he has to say).
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doojable
I'm not in this discussion except to say that mirrors DO NOT REVERSE LEFT AND RIGHT. They simply reflect.
What's on your left stays on your left. Lift your left hand in front of a mirror and the hand on your left in the mirror raises. It only makes sense that the same would be true for top and bottom. (The problem comes from thinking it's backwards because we are so used to things being reversed when we meet a person and shake hands.)
A mirror is not a lens....
I'm sure there was a point in bringing up this mirror thingie - and I can imagine that it's going to have to do with wrong perceptions due to habit or whatever.
OK - done - carry on with re-evaluating your perceptions of God and the Bible.
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Mike
Hi dooj,
Have you ever thought of re-evaluating your perceptions on mirror reflection? I can help.
I'm talking about a re-reflection on mirrors.
*******
Thank you much, modcat5, Raf, and Oak.
*******
Oakspear,
You wrote: "...his belief that PFAL is revelation from God... isn't any more circular than a belief in an inerrant original text of the bible that no one has or will ever have."
I agree. I've never claimed to have a derivation or a proof, and I have pointed this out often. Thinking logically within a system is required, but logically deriving the system is impossible.
***
You wrote: "...Although i do think that the evidence of plagiarism is pretty solid proof that Wierwille borrowed, cut & pasted, etc. and didn't receive PFAL theopneustos."
You're assuming that theopneustos only comes in a "divine dictation" style or mode.
Dr has testified much that his teachers got some revelations from God and that he merely put them all together. The direct revelation Dr got was more often on the lines of knowing what to collect and what not to collect. There were several varieties in the style or mode of revelation that went into PFAL, and I've posted here on all of them at various times. Dr specified all this for us on tapes and in writing, that is was NOT just the divine dictation thing that happened.
*******
Again, I thank all of the above for their decent approach to conversation, and Paw too, for letting me post.
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doojable
Mike - I have too much on my plate to take on a guru. I have two girls that need my attention far more than I need to re-evaluate the workings of mirrors.
As far as re-evaluating the other parts of my life and beliefs goes - I'm way ahead of you. I've made some recent mistakes - which only means I have more lessons to learn.
You and I have been down the PFAL road and the subsequent fork - I'll let you follow your path and I'll follow mine.
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Mike
.
But what about THE MIRRORS???
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WordWolf
They can follow their own path.
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T-Bone
Hmmmm...let me reflect on that one awhile.
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Ham
and generally,, light chooses the angle of refraction which minimizes the amount of time for it to reach point B after leaving point A.
Well, if it travels through two mediums, anyway..
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TheHighWay
My answer can pretty much be formed from bits of others' posts:
Soon after I left, it was almost like a veil was lifted from my eyes and most of the twi doctrine simply unraveled before my eyes... --Groucho Marx, Jr.
The number of errors undermined any trust that I might have had in either man's ability to accurately teach the bible. -- Oakspear
It was at this point I saw that they [other people] have ideas and beliefs as well -- though not necessarily the one's I hold. Are they right and I'm wrong? Am I right and they are wrong? These days I don't care about that. --Bolshevik
About all I can manage these days is *Love God and Love my neighbor* It is simple and it works for me after all of the years of *straining at gnats* --Rascal
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doojable
I have mirrors in my house. They work. 'Nuff said.
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rascal
Well done highway!
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My3Cents
OK somebody once asked [For those who have changed their beliefs, how did the circumstances of your exit from TWI influence your subsequent religious/spiritual beliefs?]
Mine came the other way round. It was a change of beliefs that influenced my exit from the way. I doubt however, if I would have had the balls to change my beliefs if circumstances had not happened the way they did.
I was clergy and a corps grad. In the mid 80's C Geer read the POP paper and then called a clergy meeting at HQ where he reamed out the board of trustees and they basically went along. In the hub-bub lots of my peers were trying to figure out who to stand with and who has the most accurate understanding of the word.
I took it one step further and asked myself, why I even believed there was "a word" or why I believed the bible was the word of god. The answer was I only believed it because of some preacher from Ohio that I'd listened to many years ago. I decided I needed better evidence than that. So I decided not to stay with the way at all.
Turns out I never did find the evidence and I found that when I stopped looking for answers to every question my life got a whole lot better.
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gladtobeout
My husband and I left in 89 after receiving L@y's Sunday morning ranting tape. You know the one where he talks about how great he was. Our local leadership was fired for absolutely no Godly reason and we knew the leaders at HQ were not doing God's word. I also had serious problems with some of the doctrinal issues especially the abortion issue. It was very evident that the leaders at HQ were not living love and that the ministry was basically finished IMHO.
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Mark Clarke
I began re-evaluating what I learned from PFAL when the Ex-Way group I was involved with started teaching new things. I saw how what they taught made more sense than what I had heard before and fit with the Bible better. But then the group started getting into the same "we are right and everybody else is wrong" mentality that TWI had, and when I questioned that, I was "asked" to leave. I went through a period of time where I didn't know what I believed anymore, but slowly I came to form opinions by, (1) reading the Bible IN CONTEXT and not taking isolated verses out of it; and (2) considering what other viewpoints said (horror of horrors!) and seeing what made the most sense. My current belief system is based, not on the "revelation" or "anointing" of one person, but things that many Biblical scholars have recognized for many many years. The primary subject that Jesus spoke about is the coming Kingdom of God, and everything else in the Bible is more easily understood in light of that. For further detail and elaboration, see my website, www.godskingdomfirst.net. I'm not selling anything, I just put it together so that anyone could read systematically what I have come to believe. And for the first time in my life I can say that I believe what I do because I've checked it out, not because somebody or some group told me what I had to believe.
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washingtonweather
cool website Mark!
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Raf
Mark,
Looks like you spent some time under VF's group. Am I right?
I only ask because I spent some time there too, and I see a lot of similarities.
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Mark Clarke
Actually I was with the group in Syracuse, NY. It was the leader of that group that first taught about the Kingdom of God among the Ex-TWI groups in NY. VF embraced it but the leader in Syracuse soon split from VF and anyone else who disagreed with him, and that's when I got out of ex-TWI-land. I still like most of what VF is teaching though.
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tonto
We left soon after we heard what happened at the clergy meeting in Nov. '86.
I never was much of a study bug but my hubs sure was and with all that free time he examined every "jot and tittle" of what we had been taught. He bulldozed his wall of beliefs but I could only handle one brick at a time.
I would argue with him every step of the way not because I was so sure twi's version of Christianity was right, but because I wasn't about to jump on someone else's bandwagon. After Twi I was all bandwagoned out. T-Bone was never one of those "I'm the head, dam n it!" husbands anyway and never tried to force me into changing my beliefs.
There's alot of doctrine we don't agree on...he's pretty much a trinitarian and I'm pretty much not...but we agree on the things that matter, like salvation and no adultry or stealing...ten commandments-type stuff.
I spent more time than I ever cared to doing word studies and underlining things in the bible during my twi tenure. I was a Christian long before I got into twi and I always had a strong prayer life, so those things didn't change.
When something didn't make sense to me in twi I just figured it was because I wasn't spiritual enough. When we left I turned my brain back on and decided if something didn't make sense to me, I'd either throw it on the turd pile or in the "farther along we'll know all about it" room.
Thanks for listening. Back to poodles...
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