psst - that's because someone got a bigger gift than he did!
(as someone who was on the field when that came out - I was GLAD - because if you lived near the limb/branch/twig homes you were getting sucked into everything that came down the pike called a 'gift' - beyond ABS.)
Supposedly some believer on the field had "given" a computer to the limb coordinator, and then was trying to wield undo influence over the limb coordinator. At least, that's the story that came from Craig.
In his typical fashion he over-reacted and mandated NO GIFTS!! And of course, no common sense whatsoever was used.
EVERYTHING that would normally be considered just a nice thing to do for someone else got labeled a GIFT. (oh no, they were trying to GIVE something to us.... EEEEEEEEVVVIIIIIIILLLLL, eeeeeeeeeevvvvviiiiiiiillllll......)
I mean cut flowers for the table at a dinner, as someone mentioned veggies from the garden, whatever. Suddenly EVERY gift was a potential bribe. Holy crap, talk about no trust of your leadership, and no trust of your people.
(I don't remember, though if mandatory free babysitting of the leadership's children or cleaning of their homes was ever considered a gift...)
This is odd, because I distinctly remember our BL mentioning how much easier it was to get his financial reports etc in to HQ because they had been told to e-mail it. This was about 1995. So that means someone at HQ was on the receiving end of the e-mail which would require a computer.
WG, that doesn't mean everyone had a computer at that time. There's a thread from WayDale or early GSpot where it's discussed by those involved. I may have it in my personal archived files.... I'll look.
Anyway, the "no gift" thing would have been nice if it had been handled logically, but it became a pain in the arse. I was tired of being asked to give money all the time and thought a lot of the gifts were way over the top... heck, most of the gifts given to the WC and craiggers were way nicer and way more expensive than anything I'd ever seen in my life.
On the other hand, not being able to give oranges, a piece of gum or pay for a dinner was ridiculous. I got yelled at for offering our local WC tickets to a movie that I got for free. Good grief! I didn't pay for the darn things, the whole branch almost was able to go to the movies with us because of how many free tickets I got. Not only did they turn down the offer, they then yelled at me for putting them in a position to have to turn down the tickets.
Like everything else TWI-related it was just ridiculous.
Supposedly some believer on the field had "given" a computer to the limb coordinator, and then was trying to wield undo influence over the limb coordinator. At least, that's the story that came from Craig.
Why didn't anyone counsel the believer who gave the computer? And why is a limb coordinator having trouble dealing with some believer? LCM once said my brain was like swiss cheese, because my logic was full of holes. I'd like to hear his logical response to my questions.
I mean cut flowers for the table at a dinner, as someone mentioned veggies from the garden, whatever. Suddenly EVERY gift was a potential bribe. Holy crap, talk about no trust of your leadership, and no trust of your people.
(I don't remember, though if mandatory free babysitting of the leadership's children or cleaning of their homes was ever considered a gift...)
It wasn't considered a gift, it was considered a privilege .... in my area, at least. <_<
Anyway, the "no gift" thing would have been nice if it had been handled logically, but it became a pain in the arse.
No doubt. As is evident in the language of the message, it was an ill considered emotional outburst, not a well considered policy change. That outburst became a mandate that lasted 8 or 9 years. Suddenly any act of kindness toward us had to be filtered through a guarded lens of distrust. What is this persons motives? What are my motives? Even if both are pure hearted, I might still be wrong in principle or precedent set. It took a lot of the joy out of simple cheerful giving (and receiving). It's hard to articulate the awkwardness and second guessing this engendered.
On another level, I see this as an example of how Craig tried to get the attention off of himself and made people to look inward and turn any criticism they might have on themselves.
No doubt. As is evident in the language of the message, it was an ill considered emotional outburst, not a well considered policy change.
You just described the lcm regime- both in doctrine and policy.
Ill-considered emotional outbursts became doctrines and policy.
That's how they got "weakness always brings down strength",
"no debt, not even for a house or car", "all corps are to go fulltime and quit their jobs",
"no pets", etc. etc.
That outburst became a mandate that lasted 8 or 9 years. Suddenly any act of kindness toward us had to be filtered through a guarded lens of distrust. What is this persons motives? What are my motives? Even if both are pure hearted, I might still be wrong in principle or precedent set. It took a lot of the joy out of simple cheerful giving (and receiving). It's hard to articulate the awkwardness and second guessing this engendered.
Even PENS AND PENCILS couldn't be given.
Mind you, the corps were being paid subsistence wages in many cases,
and subject to moving without notice, and forced to hunt for a living wage when the corps
was taken OFF fulltime not long after they were forced to quit their jobs,
so sometimes, Christians saw a brother suffering and wanted to do a little something to
alleviate it- but twi MANDATED this was not allowed under any circumstance.
And all the people likely to just disregard senseless rules had either left already or been
driven out already....
On another level, I see this as an example of how Craig tried to get the attention off of himself and made people to look inward and turn any criticism they might have on themselves.
Wouldn't surprise me. He ALWAYS sought to put HIMSELF in the middle of EVERYTHING.
He was the star in AOS, he appeared in High Country Caravan, he'd go onstage when
Acts 29 and other groups were singing, etc. etc.
The most dangerous place to be in twi was between lcm and the limelight.
"Ill-considered emotional outbursts became doctrines and policy!" Wow - that does say it, in a nutshell. All of a sudden, we could not bring flowers from our garden to the LC's table. BUT, we were expected to come regularly to clean and work at their house and yard. What's up with that?Wasn't that a gift too? Except that when I came to clean her house, I could barely do anything because of the lack of cleaning supplies. It was ridiculous. It got to where I snuck in my own rags and cleansers.
I remember that after the gift ban, the card giving competition got real crazy. So, the gift ban didn't really change anything, it just morphed into another form of adulation. One night, we were called to arrange baby sitting last minute and make a command appearance at the LC home ... an important meeting. It turned out to be an a*** reaming because as a group of believers, we had not sent written "thank-yous" to them often enough. We were not showing our respect properly.
Oh my gosh, the CARDS... I'd almost forgotten about the cards....
It was NUTS. And because I had some arts/crafts background I almost always got asked to make the cards. I would have to come up with an idea and submit it to my leadership. Once it was approved I had to hand-make the bloody thing, and it couldn't be just something simple and nice. It had to be some elaborate, multi-layered, sparkly, Bible-quoting, @$$-kissing mess of a thing!
But I'd better be sure I left enough room on the bottom page for everyone to sign!!!
I specifically remember some poor guy not being able to squish his name onto the tiny line provided and getting completely humiliated in front of everyone by the leadership over it.
wow I SO remember giving our computer to a limb coordinator and having him so thankful for our sharing of our abundance....... and putting money in the pot for LCM when he would come teach and acts class or something ...
The first I remember hearing about the gift = bribe stuff was around 1994-95, at least in the corps.
At that time, an elderly aunt and uncle of mine who had no living children, were hoping I would help take care of them in their old age. As my manner was, for many, many years I had looked in on them and did things for them whenever I was in town (I lived 8 hours away). After some time, my aunt took me aside and showed me they made out their will to leave their entire estate, lock, stock, and barrel, to my daughter.
This couple had always been my favorite aunt and uncle. They had lost both of their children in infancy and doted on me as I grew up. They constantly looked out for not only me, but also my other cousins when it came to birthdays and Christmas, and always chauffered us around when we came to visit them in St. Louis, taking us to museums, ballparks, zoos, etc., to make sure we were properly entertained and cared for. Also, when my Dad was on strike or laid off for months at a time, they always made sure we never wanted for anything during those hard times. They were very giving folks.
In their old age, they truly had no one to look after them since both of their children were dead, so I had always been conscious of my responsibility to check in on them as best I could, whenever I was in town. I would have done it whether or not they left my daughter a penny. However, Martindale's rantings caused me to look at the situation with suspicion, and I eventually openly questioned them as to whether they felt they were buying my care. This offended them and hurt them deeply, and though after some time we were back on "good" terms, they disinherited my daughter.
I don't regret the loss of inheritance for my daughter. What I regret is hurting and disappointing people I cared for deeply, and causing them worry for their futures in their old age.
I believe many of Martindale's policies were not only hypocritical, but reflective of his own paranoias. This one in particular.
Simply madness taking over his brain and infiltrating his policies, reverberating in stupidity and hurt .
I believe it was '90 or '91 while I was sponsoring a family at the Indiana Campus that craig decreed no more gifts for the corps - that all of a sudden we were trying to bribe them. It had been my complete pleasure to honor their children on their birthdays with a bouquet of flowers delivered to the campus. The girls would be summoned to the switchboard area to pick up their delivery. I also sent socks for their birthdays or whenever I got a notion to.
The mom of this in residence family was very selfless, so it was my habit to send her favorite shampoo and conditioner every couple or 3 months, whatever it was, so that she wouldn't run out of her favorite shampoo while in residence. Again, my total pleasure to provide. This was in addition to whatever financial commitment I had made.
During their in-residence training is when the no gift policy started. I remember well not being able to send those little gifts that meant so much to both them and me. Couldn't have been later than '91, I don't think.
Looking in on this again, I realize there was absolutely nothing Biblical about this decree. People gave Paul gifts because they loved him. The saints took care of each other when one had a need. We are to do good unto all men, the Word tells us, but especially to the household of faith. The household of faith was not TWI, not the WC, not the BOT, not the MOGFODAT. It was Christians, period. Now some on either side, the giver and the recipient, have undoubtedly abused this no end., but we're human. However, in decreeing no gifts, His Majesty King Craig was flat out contradicting the Bible, and depriving both those who wished to give of the blessing of giving, and those who needed to receive a blessing also.
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Ham
I remember how he felt about computers, "some of you have accepted COMPUTERS (drat), YOU DON'T NEED computers to 'move da word'.."
"You could handle the work you do with pencil and paper.."
and that was running an AREA, or a LIMB.
I think if you can single-handedly run a state wide business with pencil, paper, and a calculator, the business is more than in trouble..
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socks
Help is available. See the *LAW* of Believing thread of dmillers'.
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ChasUFarley
psst - that's because someone got a bigger gift than he did!
(as someone who was on the field when that came out - I was GLAD - because if you lived near the limb/branch/twig homes you were getting sucked into everything that came down the pike called a 'gift' - beyond ABS.)
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polar bear
I remember someone getting yelled at because they gave some corps tomatoes from their garden. It was called a gift.
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TheHighWay
Oh yeah, I remember all that...
Supposedly some believer on the field had "given" a computer to the limb coordinator, and then was trying to wield undo influence over the limb coordinator. At least, that's the story that came from Craig.
In his typical fashion he over-reacted and mandated NO GIFTS!! And of course, no common sense whatsoever was used.
EVERYTHING that would normally be considered just a nice thing to do for someone else got labeled a GIFT. (oh no, they were trying to GIVE something to us.... EEEEEEEEVVVIIIIIIILLLLL, eeeeeeeeeevvvvviiiiiiiillllll......)
I mean cut flowers for the table at a dinner, as someone mentioned veggies from the garden, whatever. Suddenly EVERY gift was a potential bribe. Holy crap, talk about no trust of your leadership, and no trust of your people.
(I don't remember, though if mandatory free babysitting of the leadership's children or cleaning of their homes was ever considered a gift...)
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Watered Garden
This is odd, because I distinctly remember our BL mentioning how much easier it was to get his financial reports etc in to HQ because they had been told to e-mail it. This was about 1995. So that means someone at HQ was on the receiving end of the e-mail which would require a computer.
Huh!
WG
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Belle
WG, that doesn't mean everyone had a computer at that time. There's a thread from WayDale or early GSpot where it's discussed by those involved. I may have it in my personal archived files.... I'll look.
Anyway, the "no gift" thing would have been nice if it had been handled logically, but it became a pain in the arse. I was tired of being asked to give money all the time and thought a lot of the gifts were way over the top... heck, most of the gifts given to the WC and craiggers were way nicer and way more expensive than anything I'd ever seen in my life.
On the other hand, not being able to give oranges, a piece of gum or pay for a dinner was ridiculous. I got yelled at for offering our local WC tickets to a movie that I got for free. Good grief! I didn't pay for the darn things, the whole branch almost was able to go to the movies with us because of how many free tickets I got.
Not only did they turn down the offer, they then yelled at me for putting them in a position to have to turn down the tickets.
Like everything else TWI-related it was just ridiculous.
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VeganXTC
Why didn't anyone counsel the believer who gave the computer? And why is a limb coordinator having trouble dealing with some believer? LCM once said my brain was like swiss cheese, because my logic was full of holes. I'd like to hear his logical response to my questions.
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Belle
It wasn't considered a gift, it was considered a privilege .... in my area, at least. <_<
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shortfuse
No doubt. As is evident in the language of the message, it was an ill considered emotional outburst, not a well considered policy change. That outburst became a mandate that lasted 8 or 9 years. Suddenly any act of kindness toward us had to be filtered through a guarded lens of distrust. What is this persons motives? What are my motives? Even if both are pure hearted, I might still be wrong in principle or precedent set. It took a lot of the joy out of simple cheerful giving (and receiving). It's hard to articulate the awkwardness and second guessing this engendered.
On another level, I see this as an example of how Craig tried to get the attention off of himself and made people to look inward and turn any criticism they might have on themselves.
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WordWolf
You just described the lcm regime- both in doctrine and policy.
Ill-considered emotional outbursts became doctrines and policy.
That's how they got "weakness always brings down strength",
"no debt, not even for a house or car", "all corps are to go fulltime and quit their jobs",
"no pets", etc. etc.
Even PENS AND PENCILS couldn't be given.Mind you, the corps were being paid subsistence wages in many cases,
and subject to moving without notice, and forced to hunt for a living wage when the corps
was taken OFF fulltime not long after they were forced to quit their jobs,
so sometimes, Christians saw a brother suffering and wanted to do a little something to
alleviate it- but twi MANDATED this was not allowed under any circumstance.
And all the people likely to just disregard senseless rules had either left already or been
driven out already....
Wouldn't surprise me. He ALWAYS sought to put HIMSELF in the middle of EVERYTHING.
He was the star in AOS, he appeared in High Country Caravan, he'd go onstage when
Acts 29 and other groups were singing, etc. etc.
The most dangerous place to be in twi was between lcm and the limelight.
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Dot Matrix
What year was this gift thing implimented?
I used to buy gifts for WOW's and corps. I was never told not to do that. Boy, they really went off the deep end.
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excathedra
it'll be a cold day in hell before someone tells me about my giving "practices"
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Oakspear
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coolchef
i remember back in the early 80's a wc couple came to our town as twig leaders
i gave them a car to use for a year and when it broke down 6 months later i was the foot ////
damn fools and so was i for believing it
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Happyasaclam
"Ill-considered emotional outbursts became doctrines and policy!" Wow - that does say it, in a nutshell. All of a sudden, we could not bring flowers from our garden to the LC's table. BUT, we were expected to come regularly to clean and work at their house and yard. What's up with that?Wasn't that a gift too? Except that when I came to clean her house, I could barely do anything because of the lack of cleaning supplies. It was ridiculous. It got to where I snuck in my own rags and cleansers.
I remember that after the gift ban, the card giving competition got real crazy. So, the gift ban didn't really change anything, it just morphed into another form of adulation. One night, we were called to arrange baby sitting last minute and make a command appearance at the LC home ... an important meeting. It turned out to be an a*** reaming because as a group of believers, we had not sent written "thank-yous" to them often enough. We were not showing our respect properly.
And I stayed with this outfit another 2 years!
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TheHighWay
Oh my gosh, the CARDS... I'd almost forgotten about the cards....
It was NUTS. And because I had some arts/crafts background I almost always got asked to make the cards. I would have to come up with an idea and submit it to my leadership. Once it was approved I had to hand-make the bloody thing, and it couldn't be just something simple and nice. It had to be some elaborate, multi-layered, sparkly, Bible-quoting, @$$-kissing mess of a thing!
But I'd better be sure I left enough room on the bottom page for everyone to sign!!!
I specifically remember some poor guy not being able to squish his name onto the tiny line provided and getting completely humiliated in front of everyone by the leadership over it.
Yeah... that was a blessing.
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KoffeeKups
wow I SO remember giving our computer to a limb coordinator and having him so thankful for our sharing of our abundance....... and putting money in the pot for LCM when he would come teach and acts class or something ...
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WordWolf
lcm said that was forbidden.
That was EXPECTED for lcm. See the difference?
One is giving something to someone (who is not lcm) that they will use for the furtherance
of God's Word.
The other is cash given directly to lcm-tax-free, untraceable- for whatever he wanted.
The first one was evil and forbidden,
the second one was expected and required.
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Catcup
The first I remember hearing about the gift = bribe stuff was around 1994-95, at least in the corps.
At that time, an elderly aunt and uncle of mine who had no living children, were hoping I would help take care of them in their old age. As my manner was, for many, many years I had looked in on them and did things for them whenever I was in town (I lived 8 hours away). After some time, my aunt took me aside and showed me they made out their will to leave their entire estate, lock, stock, and barrel, to my daughter.
This couple had always been my favorite aunt and uncle. They had lost both of their children in infancy and doted on me as I grew up. They constantly looked out for not only me, but also my other cousins when it came to birthdays and Christmas, and always chauffered us around when we came to visit them in St. Louis, taking us to museums, ballparks, zoos, etc., to make sure we were properly entertained and cared for. Also, when my Dad was on strike or laid off for months at a time, they always made sure we never wanted for anything during those hard times. They were very giving folks.
In their old age, they truly had no one to look after them since both of their children were dead, so I had always been conscious of my responsibility to check in on them as best I could, whenever I was in town. I would have done it whether or not they left my daughter a penny. However, Martindale's rantings caused me to look at the situation with suspicion, and I eventually openly questioned them as to whether they felt they were buying my care. This offended them and hurt them deeply, and though after some time we were back on "good" terms, they disinherited my daughter.
I don't regret the loss of inheritance for my daughter. What I regret is hurting and disappointing people I cared for deeply, and causing them worry for their futures in their old age.
I believe many of Martindale's policies were not only hypocritical, but reflective of his own paranoias. This one in particular.
Simply madness taking over his brain and infiltrating his policies, reverberating in stupidity and hurt .
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bowtwi
I believe it was '90 or '91 while I was sponsoring a family at the Indiana Campus that craig decreed no more gifts for the corps - that all of a sudden we were trying to bribe them. It had been my complete pleasure to honor their children on their birthdays with a bouquet of flowers delivered to the campus. The girls would be summoned to the switchboard area to pick up their delivery. I also sent socks for their birthdays or whenever I got a notion to.
The mom of this in residence family was very selfless, so it was my habit to send her favorite shampoo and conditioner every couple or 3 months, whatever it was, so that she wouldn't run out of her favorite shampoo while in residence. Again, my total pleasure to provide. This was in addition to whatever financial commitment I had made.
During their in-residence training is when the no gift policy started. I remember well not being able to send those little gifts that meant so much to both them and me. Couldn't have been later than '91, I don't think.
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Watered Garden
Looking in on this again, I realize there was absolutely nothing Biblical about this decree. People gave Paul gifts because they loved him. The saints took care of each other when one had a need. We are to do good unto all men, the Word tells us, but especially to the household of faith. The household of faith was not TWI, not the WC, not the BOT, not the MOGFODAT. It was Christians, period. Now some on either side, the giver and the recipient, have undoubtedly abused this no end., but we're human. However, in decreeing no gifts, His Majesty King Craig was flat out contradicting the Bible, and depriving both those who wished to give of the blessing of giving, and those who needed to receive a blessing also.
What a false prophet! What a lying minister!
WG
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Eagle
WG,
You've got that right.
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