Everytime I think I understand "the scriptures," something happens in my real life relationships that reminds me, I don't know beans, and I was a total idiot for thinkin I did in the first place. :unsure:
What good is "knowing the Bible" if my relationships with others are not good? For me, the Bible is a book about "becoming more like Him," and if I can't translate that into my day by day dealings with other sojourners here on this planet, whose space I happen to share, then what good is my "knowledge."
One of my big disappointments with The Way(on a non-emotional level) was that they never really delivered the goods as promised in regard to an academic understanding of The Word.
Funny thing is, I no longer feel like I need to understand The Bible in a scholarly fashion.
Everything I now feel is important such as Gods' love and forgiveness and treating our fellow earthlings with respect and equality, I learned years before I ever heard of TWI from a person who I refer to simply as MOM.
When I was in TWI I felt certain that I had a great understanding of the Bible.After I left I saw that other Christian churches/doctrines have their reasons for believing scriptures their way...I don't believe there is one definative rightly divided interpretation of the Bible.
Let's see, what about Grace? That is when someone screws up in your mind and you verbally hash them until they're downcast and then tell them how proud you are of them when they apologize. Or is that mercy? I dunno. Only the wisdom of the Fox can discern these things.
PFAL, I took it when I was twelve. When it was over I was asked at a branch picnic what blessed me about it and I said "Four crucified" Honestly, what can a twelve-year-old do with PFAL?
Lone Wolf,
I decided awhile back not to read the bible for a few years. For me it just reminds me of twi, lcm, the fox, way disciple, etc etc. I just haven't been able to read it honestly. It's not God talking to me. It's twi and all their definitions and all their spin on the "truth". Until I can read it objectively, or just like it's me and God, I can't look at it.
I know I said this already, but no, I don't understand it. And that is upsetting.
I took a little sabbatical of reading the Bible after I left TWI. But as time went on, I went back - without TWI's notes, teachings, etc.
What I found, for me, was that God was able to teach me so much more than I ever learned in TWI.
I'd get a thought, an idea and follow it up. I read books by wonderful people like Tillich, Bonhoeffer (amazing man, executed by the Nazis in WWI), Merton, Lewis, etc.
Over the years, I think I have seen much more how the OT is fullfilled in the NT, especially the Gospels and Revelation - oddly enough, the two sections VP never seemed too much interested in.
I also, in TWI, used to wonder what Christians outside of TWI meant, when they talked about a "personal" relationship with Christ. I always had the feeling there was something missing regarding this aspect in TWI. Oh sure, we had God, but Jesus Christ was a named used at the end of a prayer. I always felt there was something more.
Over the years, since I've been out, I now understand.
Yes, TWI some some nice head knowledge going - we all admired it.
But, it was the reality of the Bible, of Christ, that was never taught, because Christ was not the head in TWI, VP, the MOG was - since Christ was absent, the MOG became our mediator so to speak.
Anyway, I would have to say, once the TWI biases and learning left and I was able to let the Holy Spirit work within - then yes, I have learned so much more and understand so much more than I ever did with TWI.
Lately I've been musing on the concept that the Bible is fractal - infinite, a tiny deep reflection of God's mind. The deeper you look, the deeper it becomes. The concept of fractals is facsinating, fractal art is incredible.
I'm glad I've lived long enough to grow enough to understand. I look back at what TWI has to offer now and it is pitifully inadequate.
the knowledge in twi was a *tinkling cymble* and *sounding brass* ...sounds pretty..but worthless because of the lack of love and operation of the two great commandments.
I think twi knowledge served to *puffeth us up*
It takes getting rid of the arrogance that we developed to get on track.
I think that what I took out of the vey experience, was not that I understood the bible, but I could certainly analyze it, pick it apart, structures, figures of speech, greek stuff.. I still could, but I don't care to, at least at the moment.
The Bible has depth at so many levels that I honestly do not believe that it is possible to understand it completely. I believe that it can be understood at various levels of understanding, but it is a very arrogant and unlearned person that says he totally understands the Bible.
As for me, I understand the Bible at a certain level. I see some of what I don't understand, also (but some probably completely escapes my notice).
Like others have noted, though, I needed to put a moratorium on the scriptures for a few years after leaving TWI.
I also had to un-learn a lot of error that was taught me by TWI. THe biggest one I remember is learning the "literal according to usage..." another one is the attempt to make different words synonyms that weren't actually synonyms.
But the most important thing was the development of a relationship between our Lord and myself and nuturing that relationship. Allowing God to enlighten me, rather than dependence upon my own, very limited, intellect in mastering God's words. (the approach that I believe that was encouraged by TWI and some others).
I did learn that I could study the Bible in depth, as a result of my association with TWI. I did learn how to use a lot of the reference materials in the time I was associated with TWI. Credit given where credit is due. However, there is a lot that I had to unlearn. I needed to unlearn the fact that Bullinger, although highly learned, was quite biased in the references he developed. TWI presented Bullinger as providing objective truth...(except on the Trinity, which we all "know" he didn't believe in, but just couldn't express that disbelief. Sort of like Luther...) I had to unlearn that. Bullinger was but an example. Wierwille's works were, when I was in, treated as some of the most masterful reference works ever developed and were considered objective truth. Obviously, they weren't. I had to unlearn both the Bullinger and the Wierwille "private interpretations" that they interjected into the Bible.
Even after all of this, I had the recognition that I could understand the Bible...at least at some level...but it took a lot of work on the part of others to bring me to a level of humility where I could actually let God teach me through His words, vice me trying to be smarter than God through my study and mastery of His words.
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Ti 3:7
That's TWI (as are the six verses before that one).
Sure head knowledge is cool, but TWI didn't even get much of that correct.
Since leaving TWI, I've discovered a whole world of "research" materials out there and loads of really neat, interesting and historical things that give me a greater understanding of the Bible than I ever had in TWI. In fact, I've had to discard and overcome much of what I was taught in TWI because it's so full of crap and errors.
I've loved learning about/from the Nag Hammadi Scrolls, the Dead Sea Scrolls, The Gnostic Gospels, Marcionite from The Invisible Dan, Judaism from Abigail, from SirGuessALot, from Raf, from the two Marks (O'Malley and Sanguetti), etc...... There's so much more to religions and different beliefs than the Bible and learning from those gives one a greater understanding of God, imo. I've also embraced some beliefs outside Christianity and no longer limit God to organized religion and those who call him "God".
BUT, as most folks have said - that's nothing compared to really and truly getting the message of love that Jesus taught:
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I think TWI taught me the keys I needed to be able to research the scriptures (PFAL was a class on keys, if I remember correctly), but I certainly do not claim to understand the whole Bible (or anything close to it). The 'manifold wisdom of God' is such that I can look at a verse once and see one thing, and come back to the same verse a year or two later and see more depth that I missed the first time. I think that TWI taught a great deal of practical information about how to live life, at least I remember learning a lot about how to live love (although I fall short a great deal of the time). I didn't have the privilege of waysider; my parents were very harsh, bitter people, and I had to unlearn most of what they taught me while in TWI, but I agree that the practical side is what matters most to me rather than the head knowledge.
Well, you ask a lot of good questions. I do believe in the bible but I think that how we have today it is very limiting. I also study from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hag Nammadi Library, the Lost Books of the Bible, Kabbalah and other religions and of course the Hebrew language.
I also believe in a Sovereign God therefore I believe everything I've gone through has been for my learning. There are a lot of things in life that I never would have been able to accomplish had I not had Corps training, so I'm thankful I had the opportunity to go through it.
I was listening to a teaching last week and the teacher said, "In this world we are becoming, in the next world we will be". I thought this was a great statement. Everything I've gone through here is preparing what I will be able to be, do, teach and lead later on. So, I'm thankful for all the teaching and learning I get now, even when some of it doesn't feel so great at the time I am going through it.
I really feel that God had his own agenda with those of us who went in the Corp with an open heart to learn. I got a lot out of it myself and have always been glad and thankful I went through it.
Yes, I feel I understand the bible and TWI played a big part in that. VP once said that the best scope of understanding the bible we'll ever get is from reading and rereading the bible; not from classes, word studies, etc. If you get settled into the habit of having your eyes and mind in the bible, THAT'S when God can show you stuff, not so you can be puffed up, just so you can be more peaceful.
I agree with VP that if 2 or more people read the same scripture and come to completely opposite conclusions, then God is not 100% part of that equation, but I've heard many people sum up TWI by saying the bible didn't make sense until TWI.
I don't feel that I need to "understand' the Bible, and certainly will never claim to understand it all..
Before I was in TWI I had a love for my Creator, our Heavenly Father, My God, I had a living a real relationship walking and talking with Him each day.
When I joined TWI I changed that love and relationship into a love for natural "understandings" of a book containing some words of my Father.. And started running out of time to spend with Him each day..
When I left TWI, I realized what I gave up, and how much patience and love my Father had waiting for me to return.
And today, I sit in His lap listening to Him, rather than a book of which the sole purpose was to bring us to back to Him.
I don't feel that I need to "understand' the Bible, and certainly will never claim to understand it all..
Before I was in TWI I had a love for my Creator, our Heavenly Father, My God, I had a living a real relationship walking and talking with Him each day.
When I joined TWI I changed that love and relationship into a love for natural "understandings" of a book containing some words of my Father.. And started running out of time to spend with Him each day..
When I left TWI, I realized what I gave up, and how much patience and love my Father had waiting for me to return.
And today, I sit in His lap listening to Him, rather than a book of which the sole purpose was to bring us to back to Him.
Recommended Posts
Bolshevik
Do I feel I understand the Bible?
I know I don't.
How do I know? A lifetime of ministry classes, fellowships and services. Then going Way Disciple and working on Staff, gearing up for Corps.
Often I walk up to a complete stranger, bring up the Word, and they talk about Faith.
Faith? Same as Believing right? I dunno. . .Maybe. . . Naw. . . Nope.
I know a lot little details and such, but I've missed the big picture.
F-U twi
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Everytime I think I understand "the scriptures," something happens in my real life relationships that reminds me, I don't know beans, and I was a total idiot for thinkin I did in the first place. :unsure:
What good is "knowing the Bible" if my relationships with others are not good? For me, the Bible is a book about "becoming more like Him," and if I can't translate that into my day by day dealings with other sojourners here on this planet, whose space I happen to share, then what good is my "knowledge."
Just my rant.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
One of my big disappointments with The Way(on a non-emotional level) was that they never really delivered the goods as promised in regard to an academic understanding of The Word.
Funny thing is, I no longer feel like I need to understand The Bible in a scholarly fashion.
Everything I now feel is important such as Gods' love and forgiveness and treating our fellow earthlings with respect and equality, I learned years before I ever heard of TWI from a person who I refer to simply as MOM.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
polar bear
I agree with Waysider-
I think understanding love, compassion and forgiveness is much more important than an intellectual knowledge of the Word.
The Way totally missed it on this point.
Maybe the question should be did the Way help you to live life? Not much.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
When I was in TWI I felt certain that I had a great understanding of the Bible.After I left I saw that other Christian churches/doctrines have their reasons for believing scriptures their way...I don't believe there is one definative rightly divided interpretation of the Bible.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Let's see, what about Grace? That is when someone screws up in your mind and you verbally hash them until they're downcast and then tell them how proud you are of them when they apologize. Or is that mercy? I dunno. Only the wisdom of the Fox can discern these things.
PFAL, I took it when I was twelve. When it was over I was asked at a branch picnic what blessed me about it and I said "Four crucified" Honestly, what can a twelve-year-old do with PFAL?
Lone Wolf,
I decided awhile back not to read the bible for a few years. For me it just reminds me of twi, lcm, the fox, way disciple, etc etc. I just haven't been able to read it honestly. It's not God talking to me. It's twi and all their definitions and all their spin on the "truth". Until I can read it objectively, or just like it's me and God, I can't look at it.
I know I said this already, but no, I don't understand it. And that is upsetting.
Edited by BolshevikLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
I took a little sabbatical of reading the Bible after I left TWI. But as time went on, I went back - without TWI's notes, teachings, etc.
What I found, for me, was that God was able to teach me so much more than I ever learned in TWI.
I'd get a thought, an idea and follow it up. I read books by wonderful people like Tillich, Bonhoeffer (amazing man, executed by the Nazis in WWI), Merton, Lewis, etc.
Over the years, I think I have seen much more how the OT is fullfilled in the NT, especially the Gospels and Revelation - oddly enough, the two sections VP never seemed too much interested in.
I also, in TWI, used to wonder what Christians outside of TWI meant, when they talked about a "personal" relationship with Christ. I always had the feeling there was something missing regarding this aspect in TWI. Oh sure, we had God, but Jesus Christ was a named used at the end of a prayer. I always felt there was something more.
Over the years, since I've been out, I now understand.
Yes, TWI some some nice head knowledge going - we all admired it.
But, it was the reality of the Bible, of Christ, that was never taught, because Christ was not the head in TWI, VP, the MOG was - since Christ was absent, the MOG became our mediator so to speak.
Anyway, I would have to say, once the TWI biases and learning left and I was able to let the Holy Spirit work within - then yes, I have learned so much more and understand so much more than I ever did with TWI.
Lately I've been musing on the concept that the Bible is fractal - infinite, a tiny deep reflection of God's mind. The deeper you look, the deeper it becomes. The concept of fractals is facsinating, fractal art is incredible.
I'm glad I've lived long enough to grow enough to understand. I look back at what TWI has to offer now and it is pitifully inadequate.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
the knowledge in twi was a *tinkling cymble* and *sounding brass* ...sounds pretty..but worthless because of the lack of love and operation of the two great commandments.
I think twi knowledge served to *puffeth us up*
It takes getting rid of the arrogance that we developed to get on track.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I'm still kind of on a "sabbatical".
"no new research"
I think that what I took out of the vey experience, was not that I understood the bible, but I could certainly analyze it, pick it apart, structures, figures of speech, greek stuff.. I still could, but I don't care to, at least at the moment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
The Bible has depth at so many levels that I honestly do not believe that it is possible to understand it completely. I believe that it can be understood at various levels of understanding, but it is a very arrogant and unlearned person that says he totally understands the Bible.
As for me, I understand the Bible at a certain level. I see some of what I don't understand, also (but some probably completely escapes my notice).
Like others have noted, though, I needed to put a moratorium on the scriptures for a few years after leaving TWI.
I also had to un-learn a lot of error that was taught me by TWI. THe biggest one I remember is learning the "literal according to usage..." another one is the attempt to make different words synonyms that weren't actually synonyms.
But the most important thing was the development of a relationship between our Lord and myself and nuturing that relationship. Allowing God to enlighten me, rather than dependence upon my own, very limited, intellect in mastering God's words. (the approach that I believe that was encouraged by TWI and some others).
I did learn that I could study the Bible in depth, as a result of my association with TWI. I did learn how to use a lot of the reference materials in the time I was associated with TWI. Credit given where credit is due. However, there is a lot that I had to unlearn. I needed to unlearn the fact that Bullinger, although highly learned, was quite biased in the references he developed. TWI presented Bullinger as providing objective truth...(except on the Trinity, which we all "know" he didn't believe in, but just couldn't express that disbelief. Sort of like Luther...) I had to unlearn that. Bullinger was but an example. Wierwille's works were, when I was in, treated as some of the most masterful reference works ever developed and were considered objective truth. Obviously, they weren't. I had to unlearn both the Bullinger and the Wierwille "private interpretations" that they interjected into the Bible.
Even after all of this, I had the recognition that I could understand the Bible...at least at some level...but it took a lot of work on the part of others to bring me to a level of humility where I could actually let God teach me through His words, vice me trying to be smarter than God through my study and mastery of His words.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Ti 3:7
That's TWI (as are the six verses before that one).
Sure head knowledge is cool, but TWI didn't even get much of that correct.
Since leaving TWI, I've discovered a whole world of "research" materials out there and loads of really neat, interesting and historical things that give me a greater understanding of the Bible than I ever had in TWI. In fact, I've had to discard and overcome much of what I was taught in TWI because it's so full of crap and errors.
I've loved learning about/from the Nag Hammadi Scrolls, the Dead Sea Scrolls, The Gnostic Gospels, Marcionite from The Invisible Dan, Judaism from Abigail, from SirGuessALot, from Raf, from the two Marks (O'Malley and Sanguetti), etc...... There's so much more to religions and different beliefs than the Bible and learning from those gives one a greater understanding of God, imo. I've also embraced some beliefs outside Christianity and no longer limit God to organized religion and those who call him "God".
BUT, as most folks have said - that's nothing compared to really and truly getting the message of love that Jesus taught:
Matt 22:37-40
Edited by BelleLink to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Lovely posts, Sunesis & MarkO. I've nothing to add.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef
no i don't really understand
i wish i did
i am going to start a new thread called
understading the notes in your bible
hope to see some respons just to make sure
i am not the only one who doesn't understand some {most} of the notes i wrote in my bible , the nice leather bound one with the extra wide margines.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jeaniam
I think TWI taught me the keys I needed to be able to research the scriptures (PFAL was a class on keys, if I remember correctly), but I certainly do not claim to understand the whole Bible (or anything close to it). The 'manifold wisdom of God' is such that I can look at a verse once and see one thing, and come back to the same verse a year or two later and see more depth that I missed the first time. I think that TWI taught a great deal of practical information about how to live life, at least I remember learning a lot about how to live love (although I fall short a great deal of the time). I didn't have the privilege of waysider; my parents were very harsh, bitter people, and I had to unlearn most of what they taught me while in TWI, but I agree that the practical side is what matters most to me rather than the head knowledge.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Free Soul
Nope, not any more.
I wish I could start from scratch.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Edi
Well, you ask a lot of good questions. I do believe in the bible but I think that how we have today it is very limiting. I also study from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hag Nammadi Library, the Lost Books of the Bible, Kabbalah and other religions and of course the Hebrew language.
I also believe in a Sovereign God therefore I believe everything I've gone through has been for my learning. There are a lot of things in life that I never would have been able to accomplish had I not had Corps training, so I'm thankful I had the opportunity to go through it.
I was listening to a teaching last week and the teacher said, "In this world we are becoming, in the next world we will be". I thought this was a great statement. Everything I've gone through here is preparing what I will be able to be, do, teach and lead later on. So, I'm thankful for all the teaching and learning I get now, even when some of it doesn't feel so great at the time I am going through it.
I really feel that God had his own agenda with those of us who went in the Corp with an open heart to learn. I got a lot out of it myself and have always been glad and thankful I went through it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
Yes, I feel I understand the bible and TWI played a big part in that. VP once said that the best scope of understanding the bible we'll ever get is from reading and rereading the bible; not from classes, word studies, etc. If you get settled into the habit of having your eyes and mind in the bible, THAT'S when God can show you stuff, not so you can be puffed up, just so you can be more peaceful.
I agree with VP that if 2 or more people read the same scripture and come to completely opposite conclusions, then God is not 100% part of that equation, but I've heard many people sum up TWI by saying the bible didn't make sense until TWI.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
I don't feel that I need to "understand' the Bible, and certainly will never claim to understand it all..
Before I was in TWI I had a love for my Creator, our Heavenly Father, My God, I had a living a real relationship walking and talking with Him each day.
When I joined TWI I changed that love and relationship into a love for natural "understandings" of a book containing some words of my Father.. And started running out of time to spend with Him each day..
When I left TWI, I realized what I gave up, and how much patience and love my Father had waiting for me to return.
And today, I sit in His lap listening to Him, rather than a book of which the sole purpose was to bring us to back to Him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Edi
Well said Trust and Obey. Edi
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.