I certainly cannot speak for all Moslem's as just as in any other religion there are diverging beliefs. The man that I spoke to considered himself to be a "spiritual" man he called himself Mohamad the Religious. He meant "spiritual" Those that came with him, including a Saudi prince named Hamid all looked to Mohamad for religious guildance. So I was led to believe that he was in effect their spiritual leader here in America.
Anyway he belived that Jesus was one of the great prophets, like Moses. I do not know if all Moslem's believe the rest of this but I am fairly certain that the Saudi's believe it. They still wait for the messiah because their messiah must come from the blood of Abraham and Hagar, not Sarah. The whole thing started when Sarah would not give Ishmael equal benefits as a son of Abraham. Ishmael was after all the bastard son of a servant, and Isaac the legitimate son of the wife.
To this day the battle rages between the nations because of this slight by Sarah towards Ishmael. When Israel claimed to have the messiah and sighted his earthy bloodline as proof the sons of Ishmael of course would not accept it. They felt that the children of Sarah continued to mock them and call them Bastard children. As long as Jesus is hailed as the messiah there can be no true peace between the nations.
We spoke of the original sin but I cannot remember off of the top of my head what their take on it was. If I remember I'll get back to you.
Thanks, Eyes, that does explain a lot. The Jewish translation indicates Sarah caught Ishmael molesting Isaac, but who knows what the heck really happened.
Perhaps as I go through this book, what we will really discover is that the blood of Ishmael and the blood of Isaac was very mingled. Personally, I think we are all related and find the who fight between the two religious sides to be very very sad.
Thanks, Eyes, that does explain a lot. The Jewish translation indicates Sarah caught Ishmael molesting Isaac, but who knows what the heck really happened.
Perhaps as I go through this book, what we will really discover is that the blood of Ishmael and the blood of Isaac was very mingled. Personally, I think we are all related and find the who fight between the two religious sides to be very very sad.
I would love to tear that word "molesting" apart just to see if and where it was used in any writing of the time. Just for fun. It was probably as simple as two boys beating on each other. Although everything that I have read both in and out of the Bible indicates to me that Ishmael felt that he was not being treated fairly (real or perceived). So perhaps he was acting out as jealous children do. I know that the records show that throughout his life he and his kin blamed Isaac and his kin for everything. And I do remember seeing on a documentary type show once about how it was sport between the two tribes to steal each others women and get them with child before returning them. Thus making more "bastards". I am fairly certain that if this were so then Ishmael would have been the one to start it.
Some would argue Christianity has its Goddess as well, either in the form of Mary for the Catholics, or Holy Spirit for some of the other denominations. I think, when you get right down to it, man craves that female figure in a God, to balance the male. Me, I read my bible and I have no doubt there are other spiritual beings besides God.
Ok now my mind is going again outside of the box...remember how in TWI we were taught that God is called a "He" because it was simply easier for the people to equate it? Well...maybe that is actually more correct than even VP claimed it to be. God is spirit. He has no actual form, but he formed/made/created, pick your favorite term, male and female of nearly every species including plant. God is neither male nor female and yet he knew to make both for reproduction. Perhaps he is both...
Maybe that's why the goddess/god diety shows up so much throughout history. It seems to be intertwined in every culture in one form or another. Perhaps in God's attempt to simplify he unwittingly excised the memory of part of his essence from the minds of his people.
Maybe my mind is just running amok again...amok...amok..
It is NOT a King James "ism", though I do think that is what TWI taught. The plural usages are in the various Torah translations as well. The Kabbalah says of these verse, that God was conversing with the angels/spirit beings. This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but it could take all day to write it all out. :)
I am so happy to know this...I just knew it wasn't an "ism" Could God have been talking to other gods. This happened before the Serpent and the woman incident in the Garden, so Satan/Lucifer was not the "god of this world" yet soooo...
Very little attention has been paid to Zipporah. We know she was Moses wife, but we know little about who she was as an individual. One of the few verses that mentions her is below.
Exodus 4:24ff "At a night encampent on the way, the Lord encountered him [Moses[ and sought to kill him. So Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched his legs with it, saying, "You are truly a bridgeroom of blood to me!" and when He let him alone, she added, "A bridegroom of bllod because of teh circumcision."
It is a very difficult verse, both the sages of old and the more conteporary scholars have a difficult time knowing what to do with this verse. God trying to kill Moses!?! I know, TWI would have attributed that to the Devil, via idiom of permission. Judaism does not believe in the devil. Even if there were a devil, Judaism would never grant him the power to supercede God's will.
The traditional explanation is that God sought to kill Moses because he failed to keep the covenant by circumcising his son. Zipporah is said to be a Midianite (there is a later reference regarding Moses having a wife who is a Cudange - whether this second reference is to Zipporah or another wife is unclear). Circumcision was a ritual that was not specific only to the Jewish people. Midianites also circumcised their children, as did Egyptians and some of the people of Canaan - but not at such a young age. There is an old oral tradition that says Moses and his father-in-law struck a deal regarding how the children would be raised and when they would be circumcised.
Another theory links these verses to the Goddess Isis. Isis was the wife and sister of Osiris, who was killed by his jealous brother, Seth, who tricked him into lying down inside a wooden chest then sealed the chest and placed it in the Nile. Seth later dismembers Osiris' body and scatters the pieces. Isis manages to track down all of the remains of Osiris, but one, his penis.
One argument in the Midrash suggests there is a link between circumcision and the practice of sacrificing children that once existed. As the Israelites put the blood of a lamb on their doorposts on the evening of Passover, when the first born of the Egyptians were killed, so the ritual of circumcision is something of a blood offering to God.
But anyway you look at it, it was Zipporah who saved Moses' life that night. In fact, throughout his life, time and time again he was spared by women. First, his sister, then Pharoh's daughter, and here Zipporah.
Even Bullinger holds to the idea that God was going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son. In the next couple of verses Zipporah calls Moses a 'bloody husband' because of the circumcision of his son. Suggesting the blood sacrifice to God.
I would like to hear more on this oral tradition between Moses and his father in law before I make too many more comments.
It is clear that Zipporah saved his butt that day, but it seems almost petty of God to track Moses down like that over a circumcision even if it was representing a blood sacrifice and it is petty of Moses to decline to perform the rite. He leaves it to his wife who is not of Israel and God accepts the sacrifice even though Moses did not give it. Moses gets credit for a sacrifice he did not perform and if he had it would have been under duress not of a pure and loving heart. So what's up with all of that? I don't know...I'm gonna think on it a bit.
Amok...amok...amok....
I'm gonna catch that little "amok" if it takes a week!
I am so happy to know this...I just knew it wasn't an "ism" Could God have been talking to other gods. This happened before the Serpent and the woman incident in the Garden, so Satan/Lucifer was not the "god of this world" yet soooo...
Just a thought. Amok...amok...amok...
Amok Amok - roflmao.
I don't know that God excised anything from our memories. I think it is more likely that we just lost it along the way - forgot it or had it beaten out of us by over zealot relgious leaders who were more hungry for power than godliness. And yet, despite that, remnants of the godess has remained in some form or fashion.
And while we are running amok amok amok - and who cares iif a thread stays perfectly on topic or strays and comes back anyway - right?
Here's some more amok running for you . .
In the Tanakh I am reading is says thusly ( ;) ) regarding Adam, Eve and the serpent:
"The two of them were naked, the man and his wife, yet they felt no shame. Now the serpent was the shrewdset of wall the wild beasts . . ."
That word naked, in Hebrew is 'arummim' and is a play on the word 'arum' which is translated shrewd. So, one could perhaps read that Adam and Eve were shrewd, but the serpent was more shrewd? They were shrewd and knew no shame, but AFTER they ate, they knew shame. There is a Jewish tradition that says God intended for them to eat - that it was a choice. They could remain shrewd and unashamed (and in a very real sense ignorant, dependant, and stuck in terms of growth) or they could eat and evolve.
Okay, I'm off to do some research on the genealogy of Ishmael if I can find it . ..
On that topic, you mght find it interesting to recall that what Abraham died, both Isaac and Ishmael buried him. Also, Ishmael, like Isaac, was the father of 12 tribes.
Oh yeah, what Ishmael was doing to Isaac - My Tanakh says Sarah saw them playing, King James says Ishmael was mocking Isaac and one of the other translations says he made sport of him. The Hewbrew word is t'sahak. One of it's meanings is "laugh" and can be a play on Isaac's name. However, another meaning is "fondle".
It is used again in Gen 26:8 of Isaac with Rebekah where it says, "Behold, Isaac was "sporting" with Rebekah his wife" - that word sport is also t'sahak.
Perhaps we will never know for certain. Was Sarah really so jealous and petty as to toss them out into the wilderness over childish teasing? Or was Ishmael doing something else? I don't really know. The author of "Harlot by the Side of the Road" seems to argue pretty well that it was molestation. Even that is what took place, it is sad to see thousands of generations later, there is still bad blood because of it.
I don't know that God excised anything from our memories. I think it is more likely that we just lost it along the way - forgot it or had it beaten out of us by over zealot relgious leaders who were more hungry for power than godliness. And yet, despite that, remnants of the godess has remained in some form or fashion.
And while we are running amok amok amok - and who cares iif a thread stays perfectly on topic or strays and comes back anyway - right?
Here's some more amok running for you . .
In the Tanakh I am reading is says thusly ( ;) ) regarding Adam, Eve and the serpent:
"The two of them were naked, the man and his wife, yet they felt no shame. Now the serpent was the shrewdset of wall the wild beasts . . ."
That word naked, in Hebrew is 'arummim' and is a play on the word 'arum' which is translated shrewd. So, one could perhaps read that Adam and Eve were shrewd, but the serpent was more shrewd? They were shrewd and knew no shame, but AFTER they ate, they knew shame. There is a Jewish tradition that says God intended for them to eat - that it was a choice. They could remain shrewd and unashamed (and in a very real sense ignorant, dependant, and stuck in terms of growth) or they could eat and evolve.
Oh I am so happy you said that!! When I was amoking before I deleted a part that posed the view that perhaps the part that is "in His image" is the mental capacities or ability to reason out things. We use only a small portion of our brain, perhaps in our new bodies we are to learn how to use more of it. Did I amok too far out of the box and fall on the floor? :unsure:
I have read before and am believing that 'shrewed' is a more accurate translation of the word. Because it was that they didn't know shame. The word 'naked' also indicates an openness. Without guile if you will, they had no deceipt therefore no reason to hide or be ashamed. They were innocent. Like the two year old running around the house butt a$$ naked. They are innocent.
I have heard the point of view that God intended them to eat as well. But in his opinion they ate too early and in the manner that they did it they committed a sin against Gods law. So before they could eat of the tree of life he had to kick them out or they would live forever, as gods, knowing good and evil and also being in sin, separated forever from God. But by introducing death into the world and allowing mankind to live and then die he could orchastrate salvation for all. To have a man listen to him and keep all of his commandments regardless of the circumstances or outcome was a huge sacrifice. Adam had only a small list of laws, Jesus had a slew of them. This makes me think that perhaps my idea about the blood of Jesus needing to be impure was correct. It made him more of a complete savior. Adam had Eve to help him screw up. Jesus had no-one to help him be perfect, (except God), but Jesus was not made to be responsible for a woman in the manner that Adam was, so perhaps his mixed blood did that part for him. The laws tried to cover every eventuality including the other nations. The blood covered the other nations as well. He truly did die for ALL. Literally as well as figuratively.
And while we are running amok amok amok - and who cares iif a thread stays perfectly on topic or strays and comes back anyway - right?
Okay, I'm off to do some research on the genealogy of Ishmael if I can find it . ..
On that topic, you mght find it interesting to recall that what Abraham died, both Isaac and Ishmael buried him. Also, Ishmael, like Isaac, was the father of 12 tribes.
Oh yeah, what Ishmael was doing to Isaac - My Tanakh says Sarah saw them playing, King James says Ishmael was mocking Isaac and one of the other translations says he made sport of him. The Hewbrew word is t'sahak. One of it's meanings is "laugh" and can be a play on Isaac's name. However, another meaning is "fondle".
It is used again in Gen 26:8 of Isaac with Rebekah where it says, "Behold, Isaac was "sporting" with Rebekah his wife" - that word sport is also t'sahak.
Perhaps we will never know for certain. Was Sarah really so jealous and petty as to toss them out into the wilderness over childish teasing? Or was Ishmael doing something else? I don't really know. The author of "Harlot by the Side of the Road" seems to argue pretty well that it was molestation. Even that is what took place, it is sad to see thousands of generations later, there is still bad blood because of it.
We kind of stay near the topic...kind of...amok....darn thing just keeps jumping....amok...everywhere!
As I recall did not God also bless Ishmael and give him fertile land next door to Isaac? I don't remember anywhere immediately after his birth or even after Sarah kicked them out that God treated Ishmael much different than Isaac. The only major difference was that God made Isaac's line the chosen line.
Whatever problem that Ishmael had with the children of Isaac it had to do with Sarah. It would be horribly petty to keep a grudge that long even if Ishy did grab Isaac's little worm...
I can't remember how old was Ishy when he and mom move out?
According to Josephus, the Arabian nations come from Nebaioth.
Ezekiel 27:21 says of Kedar: "Arabia and all Kedar's chiefs were traders under your rule; they traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats.
According to one article I found, they worshipped, among others (oh, you are going to LOVE this) "the morning star of heaven" [ring familiar from certain writings of the prophets - perhaps the morning star does not refer to a devil, but to the God that some of ishamael's decendent's worshipped. Religiously they were ruled by priestesses and also worshipped an evening star, as well as a sun god and a sky goddess known as Allat - who later became the God called Allah.
The Kedarites are mentioned in several other places in the bible, including a psalm Psalm 120, Isaiah 42:11, Jeremiah 2:10, and Jeremiah 49:28.
It would appear that not much is known about the remainder of the tribes. However, some hisotrians believe the decendants of Mibsam and Mishma intermarried with the Simeonites. This is based on I Chronicles 4:24ff "The sons of Simeon: Nemuel, Jamin, Jarib, Zerah, Shaul; his son Shallum, his son Misbam, his son Mishma.
I have read before and am believing that 'shrewed' is a more accurate translation of the word. Because it was that they didn't know shame. The word 'naked' also indicates an openness. Without guile if you will, they had no deceipt therefore no reason to hide or be ashamed. They were innocent. Like the two year old running around the house butt a$$ naked. They are innocent.
That is precisely what I was thinking. Before they ate, they were as babies. They knew no shame, no right from wrong, not good from evil. But at the same time, they knew no real boundaries either. If they wanted, like a child, they would take.
I have heard the point of view that God intended them to eat as well. But in his opinion they ate too early and in the manner that they did it they committed a sin against Gods law.
That is also what Jewish tradition teaches. That they were supposed to wait until the Sabbath to eat. I sometimes wonder if something would have occured in the interim, or on the Sabbath day, that would have better prepared them to handle the knowledge they were to receive.
So before they could eat of the tree of life he had to kick them out or they would live forever, as gods, knowing good and evil and also being in sin, separated forever from God.
This is where Christianity and Judaism begin to diverge. Most Jewish people do not believe in original sin, but I think both would agree that God did not want them to eat of the tree of life. Nor do Jewish people see the Messiah as a spiritual savior, forever sparing us from the wrath of God. Rather, we believe each man is accountable for his actions. Some Jewish people (me included) believe we were spiritual beings before we were born in human bodies. We were sent here to learn something, and we may return many times before we have learned what it is we need to know.
I can't remember how old was Ishy when he and mom move out?
Tradition has it that Ishy was 15 (that cracks me up, I have a friend who's nickname is Ishy because he was born in Ishpeming) and Isaac was 5.
According to Josephus, the Arabian nations come from Nebaioth.
Ezekiel 27:21 says of Kedar: "Arabia and all Kedar's chiefs were traders under your rule; they traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats.
According to one article I found, they worshipped, among others (oh, you are going to LOVE this) "the morning star of heaven" [ring familiar from certain writings of the prophets - perhaps the morning star does not refer to a devil, but to the God that some of ishamael's decendent's worshipped. Religiously they were ruled by priestesses and also worshipped an evening star, as well as a sun god and a sky goddess known as Allat - who later became the God called Allah.
The Kedarites are mentioned in several other places in the bible, including a psalm Psalm 120, Isaiah 42:11, Jeremiah 2:10, and Jeremiah 49:28.
It would appear that not much is known about the remainder of the tribes. However, some hisotrians believe the decendants of Mibsam and Mishma intermarried with the Simeonites. This is based on I Chronicles 4:24ff "The sons of Simeon: Nemuel, Jamin, Jarib, Zerah, Shaul; his son Shallum, his son Misbam, his son Mishma.
OOOoooh! Now you've done it! I looked up Allat here is what I got:
Allat ~ A pre-Islamic Arabian goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca.
Not much but I'm not done yet.
The "morning star" refered to Lucifer before he fell, and Jesus Christ after he ascended. In the Bible it represents the right hand of the Almighty. So in Ishy's time there technically was not "morning star", or being sitting on the right hand of the Almighty so Biblically speaking it could refer to anyone that was deemed strong enough, smart enough, or just good enough to fill the position.
The sun god and the sky goddess were often seen together throughout many religions. The male sun god was most commonly called Baal and the female sky goddess was called either Ashteroth or Ishtar. They of course had other names that were similar but their functions seldom changed. They always represented the two halves of fertility. The sun and the sky giving life to the earth. In some religions Ishtar became mother earth, or the supreme goddess.
Now the evening star is something that I saw not too long ago but don't remember where I saw the referenc. I will check again.
OOOoooh! Now you've done it! I looked up Allat here is what I got:
Allat ~ A pre-Islamic Arabian goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca.
Not much but I'm not done yet.
The "morning star" refered to Lucifer before he fell, and Jesus Christ after he ascended. In the Bible it represents the right hand of the Almighty. So in Ishy's time there technically was not "morning star", or being sitting on the right hand of the Almighty so Biblically speaking it could refer to anyone that was deemed strong enough, smart enough, or just good enough to fill the position.
The sun god and the sky goddess were often seen together throughout many religions. The male sun god was most commonly called Baal and the female sky goddess was called either Ashteroth or Ishtar. They of course had other names that were similar but their functions seldom changed. They always represented the two halves of fertility. The sun and the sky giving life to the earth. In some religions Ishtar became mother earth, or the supreme goddess.
Now the evening star is something that I saw not too long ago but don't remember where I saw the referenc. I will check again.
I will have to look up the biblical references to the morning star again - it has been along time. I think Jewish tradition links them to a king, perhaps Babylonian?
With regard to the two halves of fertility - my understanding of some of the ancient pagan rites would correspond with this. It is interesting to me, because Judaism does not follow the sun, but the moon. In the Jewish reckoning of time, a day starts when the sun sets. Likewise, the calendar follows the pattern of the moon, and does not follow the same cycle as our 12 month calendar. I have often wondered how many of the Jewish holidays have corresponding pagan ones.
But for now, I must be off "Grey's Anatomy" will be on soon!
This has been really interesting and fun Eyes - thank you. I will come back to it tomorrow or over the weekend. I can't promise my mind won't run amok in the interim though.
I will have to look up the biblical references to the morning star again - it has been along time. I think Jewish tradition links them to a king, perhaps Babylonian?
With regard to the two halves of fertility - my understanding of some of the ancient pagan rites would correspond with this. It is interesting to me, because Judaism does not follow the sun, but the moon. In the Jewish reckoning of time, a day starts when the sun sets. Likewise, the calendar follows the pattern of the moon, and does not follow the same cycle as our 12 month calendar. I have often wondered how many of the Jewish holidays have corresponding pagan ones.
But for now, I must be off "Grey's Anatomy" will be on soon!
This has been really interesting and fun Eyes - thank you. I will come back to it tomorrow or over the weekend. I can't promise my mind won't run amok in the interim though.
It will be interesting to see what Jewish tradition says about the morning star. I will in the meantime see if I can check out the evening star.
I know that many "Christian' holidays have pagan correlations. And other things as well. I'll make a list and get back to you on it.
I'm having a hoot of a time! I am also learning a lot. I'm on the west coast so my shows dont start for a while...I guess I'll watch a movie and run amok for a while... :wacko:
There are fertility gods, who die and have rebirth, related to vegetation, a cycle of birth, growth, death and rebirth.
Tell more, please, Bramble! I started to post this earlier and messed it all up. I will try again.
The Jewish people worship the God YWHW or Yahweh. However, the God in the creation story is Elohim - which is a plural form for the Hebrew word God and and relates to the Let US make man in OUR image. This creation story is very similar to one originating in Mesopotamia. Which came first, I have no idea.
The Canaanites highest God was called El and when Abraham received a blessing from the Canaanite king/priest, it was in the name of El Elyon "God Most High, Maker of heaven and earth".
It wasn't until Moses that God became Yahweh, at which time God told Moses he was previously known to Abrham and Isaac as El Shaddai "God Almighty".
The story of Noah may have originated from the even older Sumero-Babylonia story of Gilgamesh.
Some of the passages found in Proverbs are almost word for word the same as passages found within ancient Egyptian texts.
When the "sons of God" married daughters of men and gave birth to Nephilim - Hebrew scholars say a more accurate rendering would read the sons of the godS married duaghers of men.
And again there is the Shekinah - the goddess aspect to Judaism. Mary and Holy Spirit within Christianity. And as it turns out - at least at some point in history there were Goddesses in the Arabian nations as well. Throughout the O.T., the Jewish people often worshipped goddesses, along side their God. It was only during the reign of King Josiah that goddess worship was really anihilated for a time, and returned again after the destruction of the Temple.
All of this leaves me wondering if we all worship the same God, and simply call him by different names - or if there are many gods. [sorry George, if you are reading - but I simply cannot stick with the notion of no god at all, that is just too damned depressing to me. :) ]
It also leaves me wondering who it was that finally succeeded in eliminating all but the faintest traces of goddess worship from the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity - and how and why.
Dying gods, solar gods, vegetation gods, like Attis, Dionyisus, Mithras, tammus--all have similarities to the Christ. Some are really shocking in their similarities.
The cross is a solar symbol from ancient times, in different forms. One form we all know is the swastika of Nazi fame, but its older meaning was one of abundance and good fortune.
Halos are a solar diety symbol.
There is art that predates Christ but is nearly indistiguishable from a Madonna and child of the Christian era.
Modern Wiccans have a cycle of the year for the god--birth at the winter solstice, he is the lover at Beltaine(May day) and he dies at Samhain( halloween) the final harvest, the blood harvest(animals slaughtered before winter).
All gods are one god--known in pagan circles as soft polytheism. A variation on that is All gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess. Hard polytheism sees each diety as a separate individual. This can be a heated topic in Wiccan forums.
Two scholarly works that touch on some of this --Joseph Campbell's myth books( must reads!) and Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun, though it deals with British myth.
*
One thing i thought about while reading this discussion--the snake was an ancient symbol of regeneration and renewel, since it didn't appear to age. Interesting to me that the snake was the catalyst for change in the garden. Perhaps it could be understood in a more positive light as growth, moving to the next natural part of a cycle...
The Swastika in its original form went the other direction, i.e. clockwise. It is an ancient Hindi symbol that symbolizes regeneration and the cycles of the earth. Each arm has a designation although right now I don't remember them. As a side note the Hindi religion warned Hitler against basterdizing their symbol by turning it against itself and using it for evil. They told him that no good would come of it. As it turns out the Romans also used this symbol. Hitler tried very hard to remake the Roman empire with him as the Emporer.
I still hold to the idea that we all worship one single God with many different aspects. As I understand the names utilized in the Bible each one symbolized the manner in which God was interacting with a group of people or a person. This I know is some of TWI teaching that was plagerized but I think that it may be at least on the right track.
As I said before when I was 'amoking' I think that perhaps God is not strictly a "He" or a "She" as God seems to be all things to all men. Therefore, now this might throw you, is worshipping a goddess idolatry? Hmmm.... Along those lines how can we tell which god is the wrong god? I mean outside of the obvious...do we stick with the 'if it quacks like a duck' mentality...do we judge this other god by his/her fruit? It just seems that it should be simpler.
Interesting thing about the snake...I had forgotten that aspect. Remember that it is a figure of speech but why use such symbolism if it does not apply? Perhaps the snake indicated change but it came too soon? Adam and Eve weren't ready to receive what they did when they ate that fruit. The Jews make a very valid point when considering this issue. Like Abi it makes me wonder what they should have learned before they ate.
Roy, stop...you're making me blush. ...holy cold spiritual shower....
It also leaves me wondering who it was that finally succeeded in eliminating all but the faintest traces of goddess worship from the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity - and how and why.
Goddess worship had been unpopular in cycles. The ancient Babylonians for example were huge goddess worshippers. All of their Ziggurat (sp) towers were built for Ishtar and Baal, but primarily Ishtar as she was mother earth among other things. When Babylon fell their religion was replaced by a single male God.
The original Hindi nation worshipped two gods one of each, until they were conquered by the Moslems. The ancient Celts, both Germanic and Irish/Scottish worshipped the two gods, until they were conquered by the Greeks and then Romans respectively. Some of the culture remained until the Romans became the "Christians".
Catholics are not the same as the original Christians. The Catholic religion is a combination of the Roman religions and the Christian religion. The trinity bears a striking resemblance to the Roman Tirad. Candle lighting for the dead comes from wicca candle magic, confirmation names come from the wicca 'naming', the worship of saints comes from the Pantheon of the gods of all the conquered nations...I could go on but you get the point. A couple of things that came with the Christians was a hatred of homosexuals (which is a long story about a 1st century Bishop that had a major homophobia akin to LCM) and their denegration of the female in the church.
Some of their opinions of females came from the Pauline apistles. We have all read the verses. But it also came with the 1st and 2nd century notion that the fall of man was completely and totally the fault of Eve. This thinking came about because the men of those centuries were reexamining why mankind needed a savior in the first place. The societies that these men were in were patriarchal and some of the men were simply put, chauvanistic (sp). They had way too much testasterone and time on their hands. So if it was Eve's fault then man must be better than women. The word of God was stretched to suit their doctrine and women became the weaker sex.
The leaders of the early church did as most people in power they organized their beliefs and religion to fit their agenda. To hell with the truth.
I would get into it more and if you need clarification let me know but I really have to go to work now.
All gods are one god--known in pagan circles as soft polytheism. A variation on that is All gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess. Hard polytheism sees each diety as a separate individual. This can be a heated topic in Wiccan forums.
Two scholarly works that touch on some of this --Joseph Campbell's myth books( must reads!) and Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun, though it deals with British myth.
*
One thing i thought about while reading this discussion--the snake was an ancient symbol of regeneration and renewel, since it didn't appear to age. Interesting to me that the snake was the catalyst for change in the garden. Perhaps it could be understood in a more positive light as growth, moving to the next natural part of a cycle...
Thanks, Bramble!
I used to have the all gods are one god as part of my tag line - I pulled it from "The Mists of Avalon" which is still one of my favorite books. I have read Joseph Campbell but not Ronadl Hutton. I think I will look for him at the library this weekend.
The snake stuff is especially interesting to me also, because in that context it makes the creation account in Gensis, along with Jewish tradition fit very well.
I still hold to the idea that we all worship one single God with many different aspects. As I understand the names utilized in the Bible each one symbolized the manner in which God was interacting with a group of people or a person. This I know is some of TWI teaching that was plagerized but I think that it may be at least on the right track.
I don't know. I am starting to wonder if the different names don't represent the different names various cultures used in Biblical times, as opposed to the aspect teaching of TWI. Perhaps in those days there was some understanding that "all the gods are one god." Perhaps the different names represent different authors and the name that particular author knew god by. That is one of the theories presented by a number of scholars and it explains some of the contradictions in the O.T. - such as those between Exodus and Deuteronomy.
As I said before when I was 'amoking' I think that perhaps God is not strictly a "He" or a "She" as God seems to be all things to all men. Therefore, now this might throw you, is worshipping a goddess idolatry? Hmmm.... Along those lines how can we tell which god is the wrong god? I mean outside of the obvious...do we stick with the 'if it quacks like a duck' mentality...do we judge this other god by his/her fruit? It just seems that it should be simpler.
No, I do not think worshipping a goddess equates with idolotry. Is there a right god and a wrong god? Or are there simply different ways of recognizing and paying tribute to the one god? Do you think God really cares if we worship him by eating a piece of bread and drinking some wine on sunday vs lighting candles on Friday night vs the many other rituals used to recognize him/her?
Goddess worship had been unpopular in cycles. The ancient Babylonians for example were huge goddess worshippers. All of their Ziggurat (sp) towers were built for Ishtar and Baal, but primarily Ishtar as she was mother earth among other things. When Babylon fell their religion was replaced by a single male God.
The original Hindi nation worshipped two gods one of each, until they were conquered by the Moslems. The ancient Celts, both Germanic and Irish/Scottish worshipped the two gods, until they were conquered by the Greeks and then Romans respectively. Some of the culture remained until the Romans became the "Christians".
Catholics are not the same as the original Christians. The Catholic religion is a combination of the Roman religions and the Christian religion. The trinity bears a striking resemblance to the Roman Tirad. Candle lighting for the dead comes from wicca candle magic, confirmation names come from the wicca 'naming', the worship of saints comes from the Pantheon of the gods of all the conquered nations...I could go on but you get the point. A couple of things that came with the Christians was a hatred of homosexuals (which is a long story about a 1st century Bishop that had a major homophobia akin to LCM) and their denegration of the female in the church.
Some of their opinions of females came from the Pauline apistles. We have all read the verses. But it also came with the 1st and 2nd century notion that the fall of man was completely and totally the fault of Eve. This thinking came about because the men of those centuries were reexamining why mankind needed a savior in the first place. The societies that these men were in were patriarchal and some of the men were simply put, chauvanistic (sp). They had way too much testasterone and time on their hands. So if it was Eve's fault then man must be better than women. The word of God was stretched to suit their doctrine and women became the weaker sex.
The leaders of the early church did as most people in power they organized their beliefs and religion to fit their agenda. To hell with the truth.
I would get into it more and if you need clarification let me know but I really have to go to work now.
Love ya.
Very interesting stuff Eyes and I would love to hear more. Jewish people also have special prayers to honor the dead, as well as a baby naming ceremony, complete with a Hebrew name.
What is even more interesting to me though, is the patriarchal stuff and the "fall of women" caused by chauvaanism. Like I said, O.T. treatment of women would be unacceptable in our day and time - in some ways they were treated like property. However, at the same time, there were protections in place to make sure she had a means of finacial support and security.
Before we go too far amok - and I don't mind going amok at all - I wanted to mention the title of the book. (lest I forget - HA)
Tamar was "the harlot by the side of the road". She was married to Judah's eldest son, who died before giving her children. Under the law, his next eldest son was to perform the duty of a husband and give her children. He didn't have to marry her, though he could if he wanted, but he did have to impregnate her. Judah's second son did not want to do this and spilled his seed on the ground to avoid it. He stood as heir to all of Judah's wealth after his older brother died, but if Tamar were to have sons, the son's would become heirs instead. Judah's second son also died, as a consequence of his refusal to fulfill the law.
Judah sent Tamar back to her family, promising her he would send for her when his youngest son was old enough to fulfill the duty. He broke his promise. Eventually, Tamar "played the harlot" quite literally and Judah paid her for her services, not knowning who she was. She became pregnant by Judah - with twins.
The modern religious world would find Tamar's behavior shocking and immoral - to play a whore and seduce her father-in-law! But one of her son's from her union with Judah is the ancestor of both David and Jesus.
We tend, at times anyway, to view morality issues as black and white. It is either moral or it isn't. Yet time and time again in the bible there are examples of immoral behavior that ultimately lead to something good - that perhaps wasn't really so immoral afterall under the specific set of circumstances.
Before we go too far amok - and I don't mind going amok at all - I wanted to mention the title of the book. (lest I forget - HA)
The modern religious world would find Tamar's behavior shocking and immoral - to play a whore and seduce her father-in-law! But one of her son's from her union with Judah is the ancestor of both David and Jesus.
We tend, at times anyway, to view morality issues as black and white. It is either moral or it isn't. Yet time and time again in the bible there are examples of immoral behavior that ultimately lead to something good - that perhaps wasn't really so immoral afterall under the specific set of circumstances.
Just for the record I think that we have managed to keep this thread somewhat close to the line while still running amok at times. It is so hard to keep a doctrinal thread on track because so much relates to other things.
Anyway I remember this story. I have always thought it was a strange law that if a man died without progeny his brother could fulfil the duty. Not only is it not biologically possible but it just seems kind of disgusting to me. I mean what if you got the only good looking man of the bunch and then he goes and dies and you get to have sex maybe repeatedly with his snaggletoothed brother....yuk! Now if the brother is some handsome Adonis then a person might want to hasten the hubbies demise...I'm sorry I digress...shallow me.. :D
But really I do understand the reason for it but, I don't know...I just don't think that I can just sleep with someone for that purpose. Too much pressure, its one thing to do that because you want to and a whole other matter to be told you have to.
I have heard this section used by some people to show how God was sadistic and a hypocrite because with her husbands death Gods law "forced the woman to be raped by her brother in law" or in this case to become a whore to fulfil a "sadistic God's law".
I do not agree with these sentiments mind you but as you say some people see morality as black and white and they often dont look into the whole story.
I don't know. I am starting to wonder if the different names don't represent the different names various cultures used in Biblical times, as opposed to the aspect teaching of TWI. Perhaps in those days there was some understanding that "all the gods are one god." Perhaps the different names represent different authors and the name that particular author knew god by. That is one of the theories presented by a number of scholars and it explains some of the contradictions in the O.T. - such as those between Exodus and Deuteronomy.
I was kind of thinking in that direction, that each "tribe" had a different name for God because each tribe saw him differently for instance one could have known God as a kind and benevolent being so they called him something that meant that. The next tribe knew God as an all powerful being and so they called him that. And so on...perhaps that is how we got so many names for the same being. In other words perhaps it is both. Obviously they didn't speak the same language so when the children of Isreal were given a description of the local God they named him with a Hebrew word. Does that make any sense?
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Abigail
Thanks, Eyes, that does explain a lot. The Jewish translation indicates Sarah caught Ishmael molesting Isaac, but who knows what the heck really happened.
Perhaps as I go through this book, what we will really discover is that the blood of Ishmael and the blood of Isaac was very mingled. Personally, I think we are all related and find the who fight between the two religious sides to be very very sad.
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Eyesopen
I would love to tear that word "molesting" apart just to see if and where it was used in any writing of the time. Just for fun. It was probably as simple as two boys beating on each other. Although everything that I have read both in and out of the Bible indicates to me that Ishmael felt that he was not being treated fairly (real or perceived). So perhaps he was acting out as jealous children do. I know that the records show that throughout his life he and his kin blamed Isaac and his kin for everything. And I do remember seeing on a documentary type show once about how it was sport between the two tribes to steal each others women and get them with child before returning them. Thus making more "bastards". I am fairly certain that if this were so then Ishmael would have been the one to start it.
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Eyesopen
Ok now my mind is going again outside of the box...remember how in TWI we were taught that God is called a "He" because it was simply easier for the people to equate it? Well...maybe that is actually more correct than even VP claimed it to be. God is spirit. He has no actual form, but he formed/made/created, pick your favorite term, male and female of nearly every species including plant. God is neither male nor female and yet he knew to make both for reproduction. Perhaps he is both...
Maybe that's why the goddess/god diety shows up so much throughout history. It seems to be intertwined in every culture in one form or another. Perhaps in God's attempt to simplify he unwittingly excised the memory of part of his essence from the minds of his people.
Maybe my mind is just running amok again...amok...amok..
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Eyesopen
I am so happy to know this...I just knew it wasn't an "ism" Could God have been talking to other gods. This happened before the Serpent and the woman incident in the Garden, so Satan/Lucifer was not the "god of this world" yet soooo...
Just a thought. Amok...amok...amok...
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Eyesopen
Even Bullinger holds to the idea that God was going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son. In the next couple of verses Zipporah calls Moses a 'bloody husband' because of the circumcision of his son. Suggesting the blood sacrifice to God.
I would like to hear more on this oral tradition between Moses and his father in law before I make too many more comments.
It is clear that Zipporah saved his butt that day, but it seems almost petty of God to track Moses down like that over a circumcision even if it was representing a blood sacrifice and it is petty of Moses to decline to perform the rite. He leaves it to his wife who is not of Israel and God accepts the sacrifice even though Moses did not give it. Moses gets credit for a sacrifice he did not perform and if he had it would have been under duress not of a pure and loving heart. So what's up with all of that? I don't know...I'm gonna think on it a bit.
Amok...amok...amok....
I'm gonna catch that little "amok" if it takes a week!
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Abigail
Amok Amok - roflmao.
I don't know that God excised anything from our memories. I think it is more likely that we just lost it along the way - forgot it or had it beaten out of us by over zealot relgious leaders who were more hungry for power than godliness. And yet, despite that, remnants of the godess has remained in some form or fashion.
And while we are running amok amok amok - and who cares iif a thread stays perfectly on topic or strays and comes back anyway - right?
Here's some more amok running for you . .
In the Tanakh I am reading is says thusly ( ;) ) regarding Adam, Eve and the serpent:
"The two of them were naked, the man and his wife, yet they felt no shame. Now the serpent was the shrewdset of wall the wild beasts . . ."
That word naked, in Hebrew is 'arummim' and is a play on the word 'arum' which is translated shrewd. So, one could perhaps read that Adam and Eve were shrewd, but the serpent was more shrewd? They were shrewd and knew no shame, but AFTER they ate, they knew shame. There is a Jewish tradition that says God intended for them to eat - that it was a choice. They could remain shrewd and unashamed (and in a very real sense ignorant, dependant, and stuck in terms of growth) or they could eat and evolve.
Okay, I'm off to do some research on the genealogy of Ishmael if I can find it . ..
On that topic, you mght find it interesting to recall that what Abraham died, both Isaac and Ishmael buried him. Also, Ishmael, like Isaac, was the father of 12 tribes.
Oh yeah, what Ishmael was doing to Isaac - My Tanakh says Sarah saw them playing, King James says Ishmael was mocking Isaac and one of the other translations says he made sport of him. The Hewbrew word is t'sahak. One of it's meanings is "laugh" and can be a play on Isaac's name. However, another meaning is "fondle".
It is used again in Gen 26:8 of Isaac with Rebekah where it says, "Behold, Isaac was "sporting" with Rebekah his wife" - that word sport is also t'sahak.
Perhaps we will never know for certain. Was Sarah really so jealous and petty as to toss them out into the wilderness over childish teasing? Or was Ishmael doing something else? I don't really know. The author of "Harlot by the Side of the Road" seems to argue pretty well that it was molestation. Even that is what took place, it is sad to see thousands of generations later, there is still bad blood because of it.
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Eyesopen
Oh I am so happy you said that!! When I was amoking before I deleted a part that posed the view that perhaps the part that is "in His image" is the mental capacities or ability to reason out things. We use only a small portion of our brain, perhaps in our new bodies we are to learn how to use more of it. Did I amok too far out of the box and fall on the floor? :unsure:
I have read before and am believing that 'shrewed' is a more accurate translation of the word. Because it was that they didn't know shame. The word 'naked' also indicates an openness. Without guile if you will, they had no deceipt therefore no reason to hide or be ashamed. They were innocent. Like the two year old running around the house butt a$$ naked. They are innocent.
I have heard the point of view that God intended them to eat as well. But in his opinion they ate too early and in the manner that they did it they committed a sin against Gods law. So before they could eat of the tree of life he had to kick them out or they would live forever, as gods, knowing good and evil and also being in sin, separated forever from God. But by introducing death into the world and allowing mankind to live and then die he could orchastrate salvation for all. To have a man listen to him and keep all of his commandments regardless of the circumstances or outcome was a huge sacrifice. Adam had only a small list of laws, Jesus had a slew of them. This makes me think that perhaps my idea about the blood of Jesus needing to be impure was correct. It made him more of a complete savior. Adam had Eve to help him screw up. Jesus had no-one to help him be perfect, (except God), but Jesus was not made to be responsible for a woman in the manner that Adam was, so perhaps his mixed blood did that part for him. The laws tried to cover every eventuality including the other nations. The blood covered the other nations as well. He truly did die for ALL. Literally as well as figuratively.
Hmmm...amok...amok...
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Eyesopen
We kind of stay near the topic...kind of...amok....darn thing just keeps jumping....amok...everywhere!
As I recall did not God also bless Ishmael and give him fertile land next door to Isaac? I don't remember anywhere immediately after his birth or even after Sarah kicked them out that God treated Ishmael much different than Isaac. The only major difference was that God made Isaac's line the chosen line.
Whatever problem that Ishmael had with the children of Isaac it had to do with Sarah. It would be horribly petty to keep a grudge that long even if Ishy did grab Isaac's little worm...
I can't remember how old was Ishy when he and mom move out?
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Abigail
The 12 Tribes of Ishmael from the Bible were:
Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and kedmah.
According to Josephus, the Arabian nations come from Nebaioth.
Ezekiel 27:21 says of Kedar: "Arabia and all Kedar's chiefs were traders under your rule; they traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats.
According to one article I found, they worshipped, among others (oh, you are going to LOVE this) "the morning star of heaven" [ring familiar from certain writings of the prophets - perhaps the morning star does not refer to a devil, but to the God that some of ishamael's decendent's worshipped. Religiously they were ruled by priestesses and also worshipped an evening star, as well as a sun god and a sky goddess known as Allat - who later became the God called Allah.
The Kedarites are mentioned in several other places in the bible, including a psalm Psalm 120, Isaiah 42:11, Jeremiah 2:10, and Jeremiah 49:28.
It would appear that not much is known about the remainder of the tribes. However, some hisotrians believe the decendants of Mibsam and Mishma intermarried with the Simeonites. This is based on I Chronicles 4:24ff "The sons of Simeon: Nemuel, Jamin, Jarib, Zerah, Shaul; his son Shallum, his son Misbam, his son Mishma.
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Abigail
That is also what Jewish tradition teaches. That they were supposed to wait until the Sabbath to eat. I sometimes wonder if something would have occured in the interim, or on the Sabbath day, that would have better prepared them to handle the knowledge they were to receive.
This is where Christianity and Judaism begin to diverge. Most Jewish people do not believe in original sin, but I think both would agree that God did not want them to eat of the tree of life. Nor do Jewish people see the Messiah as a spiritual savior, forever sparing us from the wrath of God. Rather, we believe each man is accountable for his actions. Some Jewish people (me included) believe we were spiritual beings before we were born in human bodies. We were sent here to learn something, and we may return many times before we have learned what it is we need to know.Tradition has it that Ishy was 15 (that cracks me up, I have a friend who's nickname is Ishy because he was born in Ishpeming) and Isaac was 5.
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Eyesopen
OOOoooh! Now you've done it! I looked up Allat here is what I got:
Allat ~ A pre-Islamic Arabian goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca.
Not much but I'm not done yet.
The "morning star" refered to Lucifer before he fell, and Jesus Christ after he ascended. In the Bible it represents the right hand of the Almighty. So in Ishy's time there technically was not "morning star", or being sitting on the right hand of the Almighty so Biblically speaking it could refer to anyone that was deemed strong enough, smart enough, or just good enough to fill the position.
The sun god and the sky goddess were often seen together throughout many religions. The male sun god was most commonly called Baal and the female sky goddess was called either Ashteroth or Ishtar. They of course had other names that were similar but their functions seldom changed. They always represented the two halves of fertility. The sun and the sky giving life to the earth. In some religions Ishtar became mother earth, or the supreme goddess.
Now the evening star is something that I saw not too long ago but don't remember where I saw the referenc. I will check again.
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Abigail
I will have to look up the biblical references to the morning star again - it has been along time. I think Jewish tradition links them to a king, perhaps Babylonian?
With regard to the two halves of fertility - my understanding of some of the ancient pagan rites would correspond with this. It is interesting to me, because Judaism does not follow the sun, but the moon. In the Jewish reckoning of time, a day starts when the sun sets. Likewise, the calendar follows the pattern of the moon, and does not follow the same cycle as our 12 month calendar. I have often wondered how many of the Jewish holidays have corresponding pagan ones.
But for now, I must be off "Grey's Anatomy" will be on soon!
This has been really interesting and fun Eyes - thank you. I will come back to it tomorrow or over the weekend. I can't promise my mind won't run amok in the interim though.
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Eyesopen
It will be interesting to see what Jewish tradition says about the morning star. I will in the meantime see if I can check out the evening star.
I know that many "Christian' holidays have pagan correlations. And other things as well. I'll make a list and get back to you on it.
I'm having a hoot of a time! I am also learning a lot. I'm on the west coast so my shows dont start for a while...I guess I'll watch a movie and run amok for a while... :wacko:
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Bramble
There are fertility gods, who die and have rebirth, related to vegetation, a cycle of birth, growth, death and rebirth.
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Abigail
Tell more, please, Bramble! I started to post this earlier and messed it all up. I will try again.
The Jewish people worship the God YWHW or Yahweh. However, the God in the creation story is Elohim - which is a plural form for the Hebrew word God and and relates to the Let US make man in OUR image. This creation story is very similar to one originating in Mesopotamia. Which came first, I have no idea.
The Canaanites highest God was called El and when Abraham received a blessing from the Canaanite king/priest, it was in the name of El Elyon "God Most High, Maker of heaven and earth".
It wasn't until Moses that God became Yahweh, at which time God told Moses he was previously known to Abrham and Isaac as El Shaddai "God Almighty".
The story of Noah may have originated from the even older Sumero-Babylonia story of Gilgamesh.
Some of the passages found in Proverbs are almost word for word the same as passages found within ancient Egyptian texts.
When the "sons of God" married daughters of men and gave birth to Nephilim - Hebrew scholars say a more accurate rendering would read the sons of the godS married duaghers of men.
And again there is the Shekinah - the goddess aspect to Judaism. Mary and Holy Spirit within Christianity. And as it turns out - at least at some point in history there were Goddesses in the Arabian nations as well. Throughout the O.T., the Jewish people often worshipped goddesses, along side their God. It was only during the reign of King Josiah that goddess worship was really anihilated for a time, and returned again after the destruction of the Temple.
All of this leaves me wondering if we all worship the same God, and simply call him by different names - or if there are many gods. [sorry George, if you are reading - but I simply cannot stick with the notion of no god at all, that is just too damned depressing to me. :) ]
It also leaves me wondering who it was that finally succeeded in eliminating all but the faintest traces of goddess worship from the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity - and how and why.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Eyesopen
God loves you my dear friend
its a pleasure to talk to you too
I enjoyed your assites
God Bless you my lovely friend too
thanks for the bunch of "Eyes" kisses blowing my way
yes I like them soggy
I might have to take a holy cold spiritual shower after this
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Bramble
Dying gods, solar gods, vegetation gods, like Attis, Dionyisus, Mithras, tammus--all have similarities to the Christ. Some are really shocking in their similarities.
The cross is a solar symbol from ancient times, in different forms. One form we all know is the swastika of Nazi fame, but its older meaning was one of abundance and good fortune.
Halos are a solar diety symbol.
There is art that predates Christ but is nearly indistiguishable from a Madonna and child of the Christian era.
Modern Wiccans have a cycle of the year for the god--birth at the winter solstice, he is the lover at Beltaine(May day) and he dies at Samhain( halloween) the final harvest, the blood harvest(animals slaughtered before winter).
All gods are one god--known in pagan circles as soft polytheism. A variation on that is All gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess. Hard polytheism sees each diety as a separate individual. This can be a heated topic in Wiccan forums.
Two scholarly works that touch on some of this --Joseph Campbell's myth books( must reads!) and Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun, though it deals with British myth.
*
One thing i thought about while reading this discussion--the snake was an ancient symbol of regeneration and renewel, since it didn't appear to age. Interesting to me that the snake was the catalyst for change in the garden. Perhaps it could be understood in a more positive light as growth, moving to the next natural part of a cycle...
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Eyesopen
The Swastika in its original form went the other direction, i.e. clockwise. It is an ancient Hindi symbol that symbolizes regeneration and the cycles of the earth. Each arm has a designation although right now I don't remember them. As a side note the Hindi religion warned Hitler against basterdizing their symbol by turning it against itself and using it for evil. They told him that no good would come of it. As it turns out the Romans also used this symbol. Hitler tried very hard to remake the Roman empire with him as the Emporer.
I still hold to the idea that we all worship one single God with many different aspects. As I understand the names utilized in the Bible each one symbolized the manner in which God was interacting with a group of people or a person. This I know is some of TWI teaching that was plagerized but I think that it may be at least on the right track.
As I said before when I was 'amoking' I think that perhaps God is not strictly a "He" or a "She" as God seems to be all things to all men. Therefore, now this might throw you, is worshipping a goddess idolatry? Hmmm.... Along those lines how can we tell which god is the wrong god? I mean outside of the obvious...do we stick with the 'if it quacks like a duck' mentality...do we judge this other god by his/her fruit? It just seems that it should be simpler.
Interesting thing about the snake...I had forgotten that aspect. Remember that it is a figure of speech but why use such symbolism if it does not apply? Perhaps the snake indicated change but it came too soon? Adam and Eve weren't ready to receive what they did when they ate that fruit. The Jews make a very valid point when considering this issue. Like Abi it makes me wonder what they should have learned before they ate.
Roy, stop...you're making me blush.
...holy cold spiritual shower.... 
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Eyesopen
Goddess worship had been unpopular in cycles. The ancient Babylonians for example were huge goddess worshippers. All of their Ziggurat (sp) towers were built for Ishtar and Baal, but primarily Ishtar as she was mother earth among other things. When Babylon fell their religion was replaced by a single male God.
The original Hindi nation worshipped two gods one of each, until they were conquered by the Moslems. The ancient Celts, both Germanic and Irish/Scottish worshipped the two gods, until they were conquered by the Greeks and then Romans respectively. Some of the culture remained until the Romans became the "Christians".
Catholics are not the same as the original Christians. The Catholic religion is a combination of the Roman religions and the Christian religion. The trinity bears a striking resemblance to the Roman Tirad. Candle lighting for the dead comes from wicca candle magic, confirmation names come from the wicca 'naming', the worship of saints comes from the Pantheon of the gods of all the conquered nations...I could go on but you get the point. A couple of things that came with the Christians was a hatred of homosexuals (which is a long story about a 1st century Bishop that had a major homophobia akin to LCM) and their denegration of the female in the church.
Some of their opinions of females came from the Pauline apistles. We have all read the verses. But it also came with the 1st and 2nd century notion that the fall of man was completely and totally the fault of Eve. This thinking came about because the men of those centuries were reexamining why mankind needed a savior in the first place. The societies that these men were in were patriarchal and some of the men were simply put, chauvanistic (sp). They had way too much testasterone and time on their hands. So if it was Eve's fault then man must be better than women. The word of God was stretched to suit their doctrine and women became the weaker sex.
The leaders of the early church did as most people in power they organized their beliefs and religion to fit their agenda. To hell with the truth.
I would get into it more and if you need clarification let me know but I really have to go to work now.
Love ya.
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Abigail
Thanks, Bramble!
I used to have the all gods are one god as part of my tag line - I pulled it from "The Mists of Avalon" which is still one of my favorite books. I have read Joseph Campbell but not Ronadl Hutton. I think I will look for him at the library this weekend.
The snake stuff is especially interesting to me also, because in that context it makes the creation account in Gensis, along with Jewish tradition fit very well.
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Abigail
Eyes,
I don't know. I am starting to wonder if the different names don't represent the different names various cultures used in Biblical times, as opposed to the aspect teaching of TWI. Perhaps in those days there was some understanding that "all the gods are one god." Perhaps the different names represent different authors and the name that particular author knew god by. That is one of the theories presented by a number of scholars and it explains some of the contradictions in the O.T. - such as those between Exodus and Deuteronomy.No, I do not think worshipping a goddess equates with idolotry. Is there a right god and a wrong god? Or are there simply different ways of recognizing and paying tribute to the one god? Do you think God really cares if we worship him by eating a piece of bread and drinking some wine on sunday vs lighting candles on Friday night vs the many other rituals used to recognize him/her?
Very interesting stuff Eyes and I would love to hear more. Jewish people also have special prayers to honor the dead, as well as a baby naming ceremony, complete with a Hebrew name.
What is even more interesting to me though, is the patriarchal stuff and the "fall of women" caused by chauvaanism. Like I said, O.T. treatment of women would be unacceptable in our day and time - in some ways they were treated like property. However, at the same time, there were protections in place to make sure she had a means of finacial support and security.
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Abigail
Before we go too far amok - and I don't mind going amok at all - I wanted to mention the title of the book. (lest I forget - HA)
Tamar was "the harlot by the side of the road". She was married to Judah's eldest son, who died before giving her children. Under the law, his next eldest son was to perform the duty of a husband and give her children. He didn't have to marry her, though he could if he wanted, but he did have to impregnate her. Judah's second son did not want to do this and spilled his seed on the ground to avoid it. He stood as heir to all of Judah's wealth after his older brother died, but if Tamar were to have sons, the son's would become heirs instead. Judah's second son also died, as a consequence of his refusal to fulfill the law.
Judah sent Tamar back to her family, promising her he would send for her when his youngest son was old enough to fulfill the duty. He broke his promise. Eventually, Tamar "played the harlot" quite literally and Judah paid her for her services, not knowning who she was. She became pregnant by Judah - with twins.
The modern religious world would find Tamar's behavior shocking and immoral - to play a whore and seduce her father-in-law! But one of her son's from her union with Judah is the ancestor of both David and Jesus.
We tend, at times anyway, to view morality issues as black and white. It is either moral or it isn't. Yet time and time again in the bible there are examples of immoral behavior that ultimately lead to something good - that perhaps wasn't really so immoral afterall under the specific set of circumstances.
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Eyesopen
Just for the record I think that we have managed to keep this thread somewhat close to the line while still running amok at times.
It is so hard to keep a doctrinal thread on track because so much relates to other things.
Anyway I remember this story. I have always thought it was a strange law that if a man died without progeny his brother could fulfil the duty. Not only is it not biologically possible but it just seems kind of disgusting to me. I mean what if you got the only good looking man of the bunch and then he goes and dies and you get to have sex maybe repeatedly with his snaggletoothed brother....yuk! Now if the brother is some handsome Adonis then a person might want to hasten the hubbies demise...I'm sorry I digress...shallow me.. :D
But really I do understand the reason for it but, I don't know...I just don't think that I can just sleep with someone for that purpose. Too much pressure, its one thing to do that because you want to and a whole other matter to be told you have to.
I have heard this section used by some people to show how God was sadistic and a hypocrite because with her husbands death Gods law "forced the woman to be raped by her brother in law" or in this case to become a whore to fulfil a "sadistic God's law".
I do not agree with these sentiments mind you but as you say some people see morality as black and white and they often dont look into the whole story.
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Eyesopen
I was kind of thinking in that direction, that each "tribe" had a different name for God because each tribe saw him differently for instance one could have known God as a kind and benevolent being so they called him something that meant that. The next tribe knew God as an all powerful being and so they called him that. And so on...perhaps that is how we got so many names for the same being. In other words perhaps it is both. Obviously they didn't speak the same language so when the children of Isreal were given a description of the local God they named him with a Hebrew word. Does that make any sense?
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