Wow, interesting. As I was progressing reading your post, I had thought about Ruth and then you mentioned her. I got into a debate on another forum where someone said that God allowed a Moabitess into the lineage of Christ. I asked how many Moabites had Hebrew names as far as I know, Ruth is a Hebrew name.
It is interesting to note then that no Moab was allowed or had any inheritance in Israel, and yet Jesus came from the line of a Moabite.
Wow, interesting. As I was progressing reading your post, I had thought about Ruth and then you mentioned her. I got into a debate on another forum where someone said that God allowed a Moabitess into the lineage of Christ. I asked how many Moabites had Hebrew names as far as I know, Ruth is a Hebrew name.
It is interesting to note then that no Moab was allowed or had any inheritance in Israel, and yet Jesus came from the line of a Moabite.
Ruth is a Hebrew name? Interesting. Though it is possible her real name was something else and it was translated Ruth in Hebrew, or that she was given a Hebrew name at some point after her marriage.
Also, think about HOW Ruth became part of the lineage of David and Jesus - She seduced her second husband. Crafty on one hand, and yet for a woman in those days, marriage was of the utmost importance because a woman had no money or property of her own.
Over and over again, God told Israel not to intermarry with "strangers". The definition of strangers seems to change throught the OT, but the theme remained.
Over and over again, Israel intermarried with strangers, ignoring this commandment of God. Sometimes there were horrendous consequences for this. Often, there was hypocrasy as well. For instance, Moses was married do a Midianite, yet later killed a man and his wife, because he married a Midianite.
Yet, if you trace the lineage of Jesus, you will find that there were a number of "strangers" in his geneology.
Over and over again, God told Israel not to intermarry with "strangers".
Yet, if you trace the lineage of Jesus, you will find that there were a number of "strangers" in his geneology.
Is there a lesson to be learned from that?
I'm certain that there are several good reasons why God did this, or why it was "allowed" to happen (depending on you school of thought) and consequently there is probably a "lesson" in the mix.
My first thought inclination is that this mixed blood line makes that half of Jesus that was human more human. I mean if his bloodline had been pure as the driven snow all the way back to Abraham then perhaps the fact that although he was tempted in all things like as we are and yet did not sin, might not have had as much significance. His human half was flawed on a blood level and yet he still did not sin. It's kind of akin to an American heinze 57 mutt gutter kid being elected President. No body thought he should be there, no one thought he was good enough, but yet there he was...and he sinned not.
Another thought, by having the blood of so many strangers in his veins doesn't that kind of make him a personal real live representative of all those nations? Perhaps redeming them? An Ammonite and a Moabite is forever exluded from Isreal but not the family of God? A subtle message perhaps?
Abi, I was wondering, in that book you are reading or have read, did the author make any mention of Miriam the sister of Moses? I have at the moment a "general" curiosity.
Thanks,
love ya
Interesting thoughts, Eyes! I was going to add some more to this tonight, but got caught up in chat. I will have to see what tomorrow brings. :)
****Posted by ABIGAIL, who forgot Sushi had been on his computer************
Thanks!
I would love to hear your thoughts when you have time. It is an interesting issue. I had quite forgotten that Ruth wasn't a member of the right house.
Abi, I was wondering, in that book you are reading or have read, did the author make any mention of Miriam the sister of Moses? I have at the moment a "general" curiosity.
Thanks,
love ya
Thanks!
I would love to hear your thoughts when you have time. It is an interesting issue. I had quite forgotten that Ruth wasn't a member of the right house.
love ya
He does not mentiona Miriam. Although he mentions some of the more well-known women of the bible, his forcus was more on the lesser known women.
However, Miriam has been incorporated into the Seder Supper for Passover. We have a cup called Miriam's cup, in memory of her role in saving Moses' life. Did you have a particular question regarding her?
He does not mentiona Miriam. Although he mentions some of the more well-known women of the bible, his forcus was more on the lesser known women.
However, Miriam has been incorporated into the Seder Supper for Passover. We have a cup called Miriam's cup, in memory of her role in saving Moses' life. Did you have a particular question regarding her?
I have always held a certain interest in the women of the bible, mostly Esther and Ruth as they are "big" players but I was also interested in Miriam because she was such a brave woman, a woman of strong conviction. But so little is actually told about her. Such as why did Miriam never marry? It was a patriarchal (sp) society and reproduction was a very big deal in those days. Miriam was probably considered a good catch being the sis of Moses. So why did she remain single? Did I miss something in the Bible?
I am guessing so correct me if I am wrong, and forgive me if unintentionally offend but you are Jewish are you not? Does not the Jewish religion have a book similar to the Bible? The Torah (sp) or Talmud? I know that the stories of the OT Bible are among other things of a history of Israel how much of the Jewish book correlates, or expounds the Bible? Does your book tell us more about Miriam or others?
I am sorry for bringing this up in a public forum. I have tried to ask some of these questions before and have been met with silence. I am not being sarcastic but I know I sound pretty stupid. You would think that I could remember the name of the book.
Anyway I am looking for an honest discussion here. Actually I am hoping to learn something.
Well, here I was, trying to decide which section of the book to pick from next and then I saw your post. :)
I'm going to reorganize your post, in my resopnse, and handle the easier questions first.
I am guessing so correct me if I am wrong, and forgive me if unintentionally offend but you are Jewish are you not? Does not the Jewish religion have a book similar to the Bible? The Torah (sp) or Talmud? I know that the stories of the OT Bible are among other things of a history of Israel how much of the Jewish book correlates, or expounds the Bible?
Yes I am Jewish and no I am not offended by your questions, nor do you need to apologize. The primary Jewish religious book is basically the same as the Christian OT Bible. It is arranged in a somewhat different order, and the one I am reading out of has some slightly different translations, numbering for verses, etc., but essentially it is the same. The Torah is the first five books of the O.T. The Talmud is the enitre O.T. Then there are the Midrash, which are hundreds and hundres of years of Rabinical arguments about what it all means and 'oral traditions' that never made it into the Talmud. Some of those oral traditions (which can now be found in written format) are not referred to in the Bible at all, others expound upon biblical stories.
CLICK HERE is a link that will give you some information on Miriam.
I will add a few exercpts below:
Miriam was a prophetess, as the Torah states clearly (Exod. 15:20). Our Sages tell us that the spirit of prophecy came to her when she was still a child. Her earliest prophecy was that her mother was going to give birth to a son who would free the Jewish people from Egyptian bondage. This is one of the reasons why she was also called Puah, meaning "Whisperer," for she was whispering words of prophecy
Miriam's Well," as it became known - a rolling rock that accompanied the Jewish people on their wanderings - provided fresh water in the desert, not only for the people, but also for their cattle and sheep. It also made the desert bloom with green pastures and beautifully scented flowers. Small wonder the people loved and respected this wise, G-d fearing and saintly prophetess.
Needless to say, the G-d fearing mother and daughter risked their lives in doing what they did, and they were to be rewarded with the two most distinguished "houses" (dynasties) of the Jewish people: that of Kehunah (Priesthood) --bestowed upon Yocheved's son Aaron, and that of Royalty, bestowed upon David, who was a descendant of Miriam. Miriam was only five years old when she became her mother's helper in delivering Jewish babies, but she was already quite competent(Exod. R. 1:17).
Miriam was the wife of Hur, a leading nobleman of the tribe of Judah. Together with Aaron, Hur was appointed to the leadership of the people, while Mosheh went up Mount Sinai for forty days to receive the Torah and bring down G-d's Tablets. Hur was murdered by the worshippers of the Golden Calf when he opposed them and tried to prevent them from committing that grievous sin. Hur and Miriam were the grand-parents of Betzalel, the chief architect of the Sanctuary (Mishkan).
And CLICK HERE is another article that briefly mentions a number of women in the bible. I really like the author's closing sentences about Miriam:
In her merit, we were redeemed from slavery. And in the merit of women of faith today, the entire world will be redeemed of its darkness.
The primary Jewish religious book is basically the same as the Christian OT Bible. It is arranged in a somewhat different order, and the one I am reading out of has some slightly different translations, numbering for verses, etc., but essentially it is the same. The Torah is the first five books of the O.T. The Talmud is the enitre O.T. Then there are the Midrash, which are hundreds and hundres of years of Rabinical arguments about what it all means and 'oral traditions' that never made it into the Talmud. Some of those oral traditions (which can now be found in written format) are not referred to in the Bible at all, others expound upon biblical stories.
Oh wow! You have no idea how many misunderstandings you have just cleared up! I have asked over and over again about the distinctions between those two and never gotten a straight answer, Thank you!
I love that the Talmud expands on what is written in the Bible. It fills in some more pieces of the puzzle. I find that this is similar with the Koran. I spent a good portion of my first year out WOW learning different point of view of OT history from a Saudi Arabian in Jonesboro Arkansas. It is wierd how God takes the most unlikely of situations and makes things work. Anyway the Saudi's are desendants of Abraham and Hagar. So of course they have "the other side of the story". It was fascinating stuff. At the end of the year Mohamid and I came to the conclusion that there is only one almighty God, call him any name you like but there is still only one. Despite our different backgrounds we realized that we worshipped the same God. It was very enlightening for me and him I think.
I am finding a similarity here to my experience in Arkansas. Of course I know that Christianity is an offshoot of Judeism (sp?) so they start out worshipping the same God. But Judeism gives me "the rest of the story". It stands to reason that the Jewish people would have kept more of the history than the Christians as Christians didn't consider it "their" history.
At any rate Thank you again for filling in the blanks on Miriam. So now I have a few more questions. What is the "Loshan-Hora?" I read it in the first link and I think I get the gist but I want to be certain. Tell me more about this "Inner Bible" How does it relate to women in the "church" today? Is this "Inner Bible" concept something that has been around for a while? In other words is it something that Jesus would have taught or been taught?
I am fairly certain that the Jewish religion does not adhere to "Saints" the way that Catholics do, but are there some men and women throughout history that the religion recognizes as worthy of special rememberance and respect, outside of the obvious biblical characters I mean. (Joan of Arc for example, I am certain that you noticed my signature line. She is a woman that I greatly respect for her belief in God. Her faith was incredibly strong. But I do not "elevate" her to sainthood and worship or pray to her. Sainthood is God's call. I am certain she was a child of His. But I can respect her and aspire to develope some of her more godly qualities. Kinda understand what I'm asking?)
Now the second link you gave me...wow! I can't remember reading anything so comprehensive and yet so beautiful at the same time. The concept of this Shechina is akin to the concept of the goddess in many ancient religions. (At least it seems so from what I read) I must admit that I was surprised to read that women are not thought of with the same "second class citizen" attitude that is so prevalent in many other religions. A very radical thought is beginning to take shape in my mind. Perhaps what Christianity needs to rescue it from the puritanical dark ages is a healthy slap in the face with an honest look at their history. Hmmm, just a thought.
Abi, Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. You have no idea how much you are helping me by filling in some blanks. I just love seeing things fit together and knowing the history of a thing, or a geneology is necessary to get a complete picture.
I'm really glad you enjoyed the articles. That website is run by a Chassidic Jews, they are ultra-orthodox, which means they practice very strictly. They also have a deeply spiritual side and are the only group of Jews that proselytizes (sp). I have a lot of respect for them and have learned a great deal from them.
I find that this is similar with the Koran. I spent a good portion of my first year out WOW learning different point of view of OT history from a Saudi Arabian in Jonesboro Arkansas.
I would be very interested in learning more about the Koran. I had a number of Moslem friends growing up, but back then we were more interested in the cute boys and latest fashion trends. They have all since grown up, of course, and most of them have gone back to their birth countries.
What is the "Loshan-Hora?"
It refers to gossip and slander, negative speech.
Tell me more about this "Inner Bible" How does it relate to women in the "church" today? Is this "Inner Bible" concept something that has been around for a while? In other words is it something that Jesus would have taught or been taught?
I am not 100% certain, but I think "Inner Bible" is sort of a figure of speech specific to that article. I think it is simply a reference to the women in the Bible who have gotten so little attention over many generations of a dominated society. It is a way to remind both men and women, that women are equally important.
I am fairly certain that the Jewish religion does not adhere to "Saints" the way that Catholics do, but are there some men and women throughout history that the religion recognizes as worthy of special rememberance and respect, outside of the obvious biblical characters I mean. (Joan of Arc for example, I am certain that you noticed my signature line. She is a woman that I greatly respect for her belief in God. Her faith was incredibly strong. But I do not "elevate" her to sainthood and worship or pray to her. Sainthood is God's call. I am certain she was a child of His. But I can respect her and aspire to develope some of her more godly qualities. Kinda understand what I'm asking?)
There are Rabbi's, wise men (sometimes referred to as sages) and women who are looked up to for their scholarly knowledge, good deeds, etc. How much emphasis is placed upon them, how much would be taught about them would, probably depend on what specific subject you are researching. We do not do weekly teachings in the same way TWI or many churches do. Rather, we work our way through the O.T. over and over again, one week at a time. It is a cycle, so that every year it starts over again. This Friday, we will read the same verses that were read a year ago this Friday.
Teaching, studying, etc., is a separate thing from the Sabbath services. You can join study groups, you can study on your own, you can study on-line. The temples often offer various classes that you are free to take or not as you choose. It is truly a no pressure atmosphere, with lots of room for debate and discussion.
Now the second link you gave me...wow! I can't remember reading anything so comprehensive and yet so beautiful at the same time. The concept of this Shechina is akin to the concept of the goddess in many ancient religions. (At least it seems so from what I read) I must admit that I was surprised to read that women are not thought of with the same "second class citizen" attitude that is so prevalent in many other religions. A very radical thought is beginning to take shape in my mind. Perhaps what Christianity needs to rescue it from the puritanical dark ages is a healthy slap in the face with an honest look at their history. Hmmm, just a thought.
Jewish people are often very proud of their equal treatment of women, and it is something to be proud of. But, if you take an honest look at O.T. laws, you will find they do not always play in a woman's favor so well. That being said, there are a number of scholars who would say historically, the Jewish people were often "ahead of their time" in this area. (i.e. even though the O.T. laws make women seem a bit like property, they still offered women more protections than women had in other cultures during that period of time). We continue to make strides in this area, with teachings such as the ones I linked you too, that remind us that although the O.T. appears very patriarchal, those partriarchs would have been in a heap of trouble if it weren't for the women who were their mothers, sisters and wives.
I find the Shechina studies very fascinating. The Chassidics, who are the only ones who really publicly and openly teach anything in depth about it (as part of Kabbalah - sp), do not view it as godess worship or polytheism. They simply view the Shechina as a female aspect of a many faceted God. Some of the Jewish groups outside of the Chassidics view this as something that borders on, if not crosses the line into goddess worship. Yet, despite this, they also sing a welcoming song to her every Friday night in the temple, often without even being fully aware of what they are doing or what the song means - although I think this too is begninning to change, thanks to the internet. :)
That being said, it is clear from the O.T. that the Jewish people did believe in many Gods and Goddesses, hence they repeatedly got in trouble for worshipping them, so it is not surprising to see those teachings still prevelant within Judaism in some form or fashion. Also, it is entirely likely that a number of the rituals, traditions, and O.T. stories came from cultures that worshipped other gods, cultures that the people of the O.T. assimilated into throughout the ages. This can perhaps be seen in Genesis where God says "let US make man in OUR image" and "lest man become like US".
I would be very interested in learning more about the Koran. I had a number of Moslem friends growing up, but back then we were more interested in the cute boys and latest fashion trends. They have all since grown up, of course, and most of them have gone back to their birth countries.
I wish that they translated the Koran into English but they do not. As I recall however we would open up the Bible and he would open up his Koran to the same acount of history and we would compair what each said concerning an event or group of people or any number of other things. The Koran diverges sharply from biblical accounts after the OT. It also documents historical events that occured in a region or to a people that did not include the Israelites. Its kind of like getting a history book that related only the events that occured to General Grants army and then another book that only related the events that occured to General Lee. They would diverge or substantiate each other on some accounts but others would have no corresponding event.
I am not 100% certain, but I think "Inner Bible" is sort of a figure of speech specific to that article. I think it is simply a reference to the women in the Bible who have gotten so little attention over many generations of a dominated society. It is a way to remind both men and women, that women are equally important.
I really love the way they addressed the issue. Well done.
There are Rabbi's, wise men (sometimes referred to as sages) and women who are looked up to for their scholarly knowledge, good deeds, etc. How much emphasis is placed upon them, how much would be taught about them would, probably depend on what specific subject you are researching. We do not do weekly teachings in the same way TWI or many churches do. Rather, we work our way through the O.T. over and over again, one week at a time. It is a cycle, so that every year it starts over again. This Friday, we will read the same verses that were read a year ago this Friday.
This is a really refreshing concept in some ways. But it also seems a bit restrictive. Are the Jewish people encouraged to read and study material outside of their Talmud?
Teaching, studying, etc., is a separate thing from the Sabbath services. You can join study groups, you can study on your own, you can study on-line. The temples often offer various classes that you are free to take or not as you choose. It is truly a no pressure atmosphere, with lots of room for debate and discussion.
Do they let anyone take their classes or is it a Jewish only thing? I might have to look some up if they will let me.
I find the Shechina studies very fascinating. The Chassidics, who are the only ones who really publicly and openly teach anything in depth about it (as part of Kabbalah - sp), do not view it as godess worship or polytheism. They simply view the Shechina as a female aspect of a many faceted God. Some of the Jewish groups outside of the Chassidics view this as something that borders on, if not crosses the line into goddess worship. Yet, despite this, they also sing a welcoming song to her every Friday night in the temple, often without even being fully aware of what they are doing or what the song means - although I think this too is begninning to change, thanks to the internet. :)
That being said, it is clear from the O.T. that the Jewish people did believe in many Gods and Goddesses, hence they repeatedly got in trouble for worshipping them, so it is not surprising to see those teachings still prevelant within Judaism in some form or fashion. Also, it is entirely likely that a number of the rituals, traditions, and O.T. stories came from cultures that worshipped other gods, cultures that the people of the O.T. assimilated into throughout the ages. This can perhaps be seen in Genesis where God says "let US make man in OUR image" and "lest man become like US".
I'm with you this is some interesting stuff. I have been talking to a Wicca follower from work for a while now. She explains her goddess in much the same way you just explained Shechina. The Wicca have both a male and a female aspect of their god/goddess. Both are venerated with roughly the same respect. Some other religions have only the goddess. Yet others only the male or god side of the pair.
I find it most interesting that as you say/quote God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" I personally question if that is really a King James "ism" as we were taught as it is not the only time that God refers to other gods. He never disputes that there are more and he does not ever qualify that the Devil is the only other one. God says on more than one occassion to Israel not to worship any other gods before Him. "Gods" plural. Our God just happens to be the big dog on the block. This is His world and everyone of the others are here at His indulgance.
It is certain that with all of the interaction through trading, marrying and just plain socializing a great deal of ideas got swapped between Israel and everyone else.
I must say I like the way that you think Abi, you don't keep you mind or your beliefs in a gilded doctrinal cage. It's good to think outside the box! I cruzed around that site for a while...they are pretty insightful. It is intersting that for very strict Jews they seem to be pretty progressive, like the way that they view women.
Zoar was outside the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah from what I can see some how but it leaves questions
Hi Roy sweetie!
If I remember correctly the only reason that Zoar was saved was because Lot was old and out of shape and because he had waited too long to leave Sodom. So much so that the Angels had to transport him and his family outside of the city without any of their belongings. He was told that he had to be in the mountains by dawn and it was already well past midnight. So Lot begged the Angel to allow him and his family to go to the "small city" Zoar (Zoar means little) that was not far away and stay there until it was all over. Well God told the Angel that he would spare Zoar for Lot's sake.
So it was by no "good deed" or anything on the part of the populace of Zoar that they were spared the same fate as their four sister cities.
If the Moabite, are to be forever excluded from Israel that does not mean they are excluded from God.
Very good, Roy, I would agree and so would the author of the book. One of the conclusions he draws in the book is that the idea of relgious "tolerance" is there in the Bible - that there were times of intolerance, yes, but also times of tolerance.
Eyes explained the Zoar section in very similar fashion to what the author did, as well. Jonathan Kirsch takes some lierary liberties though, and imagines that when Lot and his family reached Zoar, the town was still standing, but had been abandonded by the inhabitants, perhaps because they saw what occured in Sodom and Gomorrah. His reasoning for this, is that he is trying to understand why Lot and his daughters eventually fled to the mountains, after succesfully negotiating for permission to go to Zoar instead.
I don't know if the book is available in a download or not. I picked it up at a local bookstore. I would think it would be available at the library as well.
Eyes, do you know if the Moslem's believe in "original sin" and a messiah? And if they do believe in a messiah, is it a spiritual one or a worldly king? Also, I am curious as to their take on Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac and the reason why Sarah was so adamant that Hagar and Ishmael leave. :) Not that I have any questions or anything - HA
This is a really refreshing concept in some ways. But it also seems a bit restrictive. Are the Jewish people encouraged to read and study material outside of their Talmud?
Do they let anyone take their classes or is it a Jewish only thing? I might have to look some up if they will let me.
Oh sure. The shabbat service is just one part of the entire "community" of Judaism. There is great emphasis on education, whatever area interests you. Plus, as I said, there are volumes upon volumes of oral traditions and rabbinical arguments debating what it all means.
It isn't intended to restrictive - it is really more methodical. A way of working your way through all of it. And, it is kind of cool to think that all over the world, on the same evening, Jewish people everywhere are reading the same section, pondering its meaning, lighting candles, etc.
As for letting anyone take their classes - again, I do not know for a certainty, but I think many would be open to it, particularly if you were to inquire at a Reform synagogue. Here, you can take classes at the Synagogue and there are also free seminars on the college campus. Chabad has on-line classes. I've never taken one, but I somehow doubt they would limit them to only Jewish people.
Learning is very much encouraged, converstion is less encouraged. The Jewish people see it this way - - We are all, Jew or not, God's children.
I'm with you this is some interesting stuff. I have been talking to a Wicca follower from work for a while now. She explains her goddess in much the same way you just explained Shechina. The Wicca have both a male and a female aspect of their god/goddess. Both are venerated with roughly the same respect. Some other religions have only the goddess. Yet others only the male or god side of the pair.
Some would argue Christianity has its Goddess as well, either in the form of Mary for the Catholics, or Holy Spirit for some of the other denominations. I think, when you get right down to it, man craves that female figure in a God, to balance the male. Me, I read my bible and I have no doubt there are other spiritual beings besides God.
I find it most interesting that as you say/quote God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" I personally question if that is really a King James "ism" as we were taught as it is not the only time that God refers to other gods.
It is NOT a King James "ism", though I do think that is what TWI taught. The plural usages are in the various Torah translations as well. The Kabbalah says of these verse, that God was conversing with the angels/spirit beings. This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but it could take all day to write it all out. :)
He never disputes that there are more and he does not ever qualify that the Devil is the only other one. God says on more than one occassion to Israel not to worship any other gods before Him. "Gods" plural. Our God just happens to be the big dog on the block. This is His world and everyone of the others are here at His indulgance.
Judaism does not believe in a devil in the same manner Christians do. There are verses that refer to idols from other religions as "gods that are not gods," however, that does not eliminate the idea that other cultures may have worshipped other spiritual beings, nor does it mean other spiritual beings (other gods) do not exist. Or it could be that we have all always worshipped the same God in different ways.
It is intersting that for very strict Jews they seem to be pretty progressive, like the way that they view women.
Yes. They have practices that would be frowned upon by many of the feminists, but when you examine the great heart behind those practices and the high regard they have for women, it doesn't strike me as chuavanistic (sp) at all. In many ways, they have more respect for women than is often found in the secular realm.
Very little attention has been paid to Zipporah. We know she was Moses wife, but we know little about who she was as an individual. One of the few verses that mentions her is below.
Exodus 4:24ff "At a night encampent on the way, the Lord encountered him [Moses[ and sought to kill him. So Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched his legs with it, saying, "You are truly a bridgeroom of blood to me!" and when He let him alone, she added, "A bridegroom of bllod because of teh circumcision."
It is a very difficult verse, both the sages of old and the more conteporary scholars have a difficult time knowing what to do with this verse. God trying to kill Moses!?! I know, TWI would have attributed that to the Devil, via idiom of permission. Judaism does not believe in the devil. Even if there were a devil, Judaism would never grant him the power to supercede God's will.
The traditional explanation is that God sought to kill Moses because he failed to keep the covenant by circumcising his son. Zipporah is said to be a Midianite (there is a later reference regarding Moses having a wife who is a Cudange - whether this second reference is to Zipporah or another wife is unclear). Circumcision was a ritual that was not specific only to the Jewish people. Midianites also circumcised their children, as did Egyptians and some of the people of Canaan - but not at such a young age. There is an old oral tradition that says Moses and his father-in-law struck a deal regarding how the children would be raised and when they would be circumcised.
Another theory links these verses to the Goddess Isis. Isis was the wife and sister of Osiris, who was killed by his jealous brother, Seth, who tricked him into lying down inside a wooden chest then sealed the chest and placed it in the Nile. Seth later dismembers Osiris' body and scatters the pieces. Isis manages to track down all of the remains of Osiris, but one, his penis.
One argument in the Midrash suggests there is a link between circumcision and the practice of sacrificing children that once existed. As the Israelites put the blood of a lamb on their doorposts on the evening of Passover, when the first born of the Egyptians were killed, so the ritual of circumcision is something of a blood offering to God.
But anyway you look at it, it was Zipporah who saved Moses' life that night. In fact, throughout his life, time and time again he was spared by women. First, his sister, then Pharoh's daughter, and here Zipporah.
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Wow, interesting. As I was progressing reading your post, I had thought about Ruth and then you mentioned her. I got into a debate on another forum where someone said that God allowed a Moabitess into the lineage of Christ. I asked how many Moabites had Hebrew names as far as I know, Ruth is a Hebrew name.
It is interesting to note then that no Moab was allowed or had any inheritance in Israel, and yet Jesus came from the line of a Moabite.
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Abigail
Ruth is a Hebrew name? Interesting. Though it is possible her real name was something else and it was translated Ruth in Hebrew, or that she was given a Hebrew name at some point after her marriage.
Also, think about HOW Ruth became part of the lineage of David and Jesus - She seduced her second husband. Crafty on one hand, and yet for a woman in those days, marriage was of the utmost importance because a woman had no money or property of her own.
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Abigail
Over and over again, God told Israel not to intermarry with "strangers". The definition of strangers seems to change throught the OT, but the theme remained.
Over and over again, Israel intermarried with strangers, ignoring this commandment of God. Sometimes there were horrendous consequences for this. Often, there was hypocrasy as well. For instance, Moses was married do a Midianite, yet later killed a man and his wife, because he married a Midianite.
Yet, if you trace the lineage of Jesus, you will find that there were a number of "strangers" in his geneology.
Is there a lesson to be learned from that?
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Eyesopen
I'm certain that there are several good reasons why God did this, or why it was "allowed" to happen (depending on you school of thought) and consequently there is probably a "lesson" in the mix.
My first thought inclination is that this mixed blood line makes that half of Jesus that was human more human. I mean if his bloodline had been pure as the driven snow all the way back to Abraham then perhaps the fact that although he was tempted in all things like as we are and yet did not sin, might not have had as much significance. His human half was flawed on a blood level and yet he still did not sin. It's kind of akin to an American heinze 57 mutt gutter kid being elected President. No body thought he should be there, no one thought he was good enough, but yet there he was...and he sinned not.
Another thought, by having the blood of so many strangers in his veins doesn't that kind of make him a personal real live representative of all those nations? Perhaps redeming them? An Ammonite and a Moabite is forever exluded from Isreal but not the family of God? A subtle message perhaps?
Just thinking.
love ya
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lovematters
A subtle message indeed.
That's vey wise eyes.
It's true.
The gals in Jesus lineage knew what they wanted and went after it and they weren't shy about getting nasty.
Doncha spect that Bathsheba knew that King David (her next door neighbor) would sooner or later check out her bare butt?
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Sushi
Interesting thoughts, Eyes! I was going to add some more to this tonight, but got caught up in chat. I will have to see what tomorrow brings. :)
****Posted by ABIGAIL, who forgot Sushi had been on his computer************
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Eyesopen
Abi, I was wondering, in that book you are reading or have read, did the author make any mention of Miriam the sister of Moses? I have at the moment a "general" curiosity.
Thanks,
love ya
Thanks!
I would love to hear your thoughts when you have time. It is an interesting issue. I had quite forgotten that Ruth wasn't a member of the right house.
love ya
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Abigail
He does not mentiona Miriam. Although he mentions some of the more well-known women of the bible, his forcus was more on the lesser known women.
However, Miriam has been incorporated into the Seder Supper for Passover. We have a cup called Miriam's cup, in memory of her role in saving Moses' life. Did you have a particular question regarding her?
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Eyesopen
I have always held a certain interest in the women of the bible, mostly Esther and Ruth as they are "big" players but I was also interested in Miriam because she was such a brave woman, a woman of strong conviction. But so little is actually told about her. Such as why did Miriam never marry? It was a patriarchal (sp) society and reproduction was a very big deal in those days. Miriam was probably considered a good catch being the sis of Moses. So why did she remain single? Did I miss something in the Bible?
I am guessing so correct me if I am wrong, and forgive me if unintentionally offend but you are Jewish are you not? Does not the Jewish religion have a book similar to the Bible? The Torah (sp) or Talmud? I know that the stories of the OT Bible are among other things of a history of Israel how much of the Jewish book correlates, or expounds the Bible? Does your book tell us more about Miriam or others?
I am sorry for bringing this up in a public forum. I have tried to ask some of these questions before and have been met with silence. I am not being sarcastic but I know I sound pretty stupid. You would think that I could remember the name of the book.
Anyway I am looking for an honest discussion here. Actually I am hoping to learn something.
Thanks for responding.
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Abigail
Well, here I was, trying to decide which section of the book to pick from next and then I saw your post. :)
I'm going to reorganize your post, in my resopnse, and handle the easier questions first.
Yes I am Jewish and no I am not offended by your questions, nor do you need to apologize. The primary Jewish religious book is basically the same as the Christian OT Bible. It is arranged in a somewhat different order, and the one I am reading out of has some slightly different translations, numbering for verses, etc., but essentially it is the same. The Torah is the first five books of the O.T. The Talmud is the enitre O.T. Then there are the Midrash, which are hundreds and hundres of years of Rabinical arguments about what it all means and 'oral traditions' that never made it into the Talmud. Some of those oral traditions (which can now be found in written format) are not referred to in the Bible at all, others expound upon biblical stories.
CLICK HERE is a link that will give you some information on Miriam.
I will add a few exercpts below:
Miriam was a prophetess, as the Torah states clearly (Exod. 15:20). Our Sages tell us that the spirit of prophecy came to her when she was still a child. Her earliest prophecy was that her mother was going to give birth to a son who would free the Jewish people from Egyptian bondage. This is one of the reasons why she was also called Puah, meaning "Whisperer," for she was whispering words of prophecy
Miriam's Well," as it became known - a rolling rock that accompanied the Jewish people on their wanderings - provided fresh water in the desert, not only for the people, but also for their cattle and sheep. It also made the desert bloom with green pastures and beautifully scented flowers. Small wonder the people loved and respected this wise, G-d fearing and saintly prophetess.
Needless to say, the G-d fearing mother and daughter risked their lives in doing what they did, and they were to be rewarded with the two most distinguished "houses" (dynasties) of the Jewish people: that of Kehunah (Priesthood) --bestowed upon Yocheved's son Aaron, and that of Royalty, bestowed upon David, who was a descendant of Miriam. Miriam was only five years old when she became her mother's helper in delivering Jewish babies, but she was already quite competent(Exod. R. 1:17).
Miriam was the wife of Hur, a leading nobleman of the tribe of Judah. Together with Aaron, Hur was appointed to the leadership of the people, while Mosheh went up Mount Sinai for forty days to receive the Torah and bring down G-d's Tablets. Hur was murdered by the worshippers of the Golden Calf when he opposed them and tried to prevent them from committing that grievous sin. Hur and Miriam were the grand-parents of Betzalel, the chief architect of the Sanctuary (Mishkan).
And CLICK HERE is another article that briefly mentions a number of women in the bible. I really like the author's closing sentences about Miriam:
In her merit, we were redeemed from slavery. And in the merit of women of faith today, the entire world will be redeemed of its darkness.
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Eyesopen
Oh wow! You have no idea how many misunderstandings you have just cleared up! I have asked over and over again about the distinctions between those two and never gotten a straight answer, Thank you!
I love that the Talmud expands on what is written in the Bible. It fills in some more pieces of the puzzle. I find that this is similar with the Koran. I spent a good portion of my first year out WOW learning different point of view of OT history from a Saudi Arabian in Jonesboro Arkansas. It is wierd how God takes the most unlikely of situations and makes things work. Anyway the Saudi's are desendants of Abraham and Hagar. So of course they have "the other side of the story". It was fascinating stuff. At the end of the year Mohamid and I came to the conclusion that there is only one almighty God, call him any name you like but there is still only one. Despite our different backgrounds we realized that we worshipped the same God. It was very enlightening for me and him I think.
I am finding a similarity here to my experience in Arkansas. Of course I know that Christianity is an offshoot of Judeism (sp?) so they start out worshipping the same God. But Judeism gives me "the rest of the story". It stands to reason that the Jewish people would have kept more of the history than the Christians as Christians didn't consider it "their" history.
At any rate Thank you again for filling in the blanks on Miriam. So now I have a few more questions. What is the "Loshan-Hora?" I read it in the first link and I think I get the gist but I want to be certain. Tell me more about this "Inner Bible" How does it relate to women in the "church" today? Is this "Inner Bible" concept something that has been around for a while? In other words is it something that Jesus would have taught or been taught?
I am fairly certain that the Jewish religion does not adhere to "Saints" the way that Catholics do, but are there some men and women throughout history that the religion recognizes as worthy of special rememberance and respect, outside of the obvious biblical characters I mean. (Joan of Arc for example, I am certain that you noticed my signature line. She is a woman that I greatly respect for her belief in God. Her faith was incredibly strong. But I do not "elevate" her to sainthood and worship or pray to her. Sainthood is God's call. I am certain she was a child of His. But I can respect her and aspire to develope some of her more godly qualities. Kinda understand what I'm asking?)
Now the second link you gave me...wow! I can't remember reading anything so comprehensive and yet so beautiful at the same time. The concept of this Shechina is akin to the concept of the goddess in many ancient religions. (At least it seems so from what I read) I must admit that I was surprised to read that women are not thought of with the same "second class citizen" attitude that is so prevalent in many other religions. A very radical thought is beginning to take shape in my mind. Perhaps what Christianity needs to rescue it from the puritanical dark ages is a healthy slap in the face with an honest look at their history. Hmmm, just a thought.
Abi, Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. You have no idea how much you are helping me by filling in some blanks. I just love seeing things fit together and knowing the history of a thing, or a geneology is necessary to get a complete picture.
Thanks again! :)
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Abigail
I'm really glad you enjoyed the articles. That website is run by a Chassidic Jews, they are ultra-orthodox, which means they practice very strictly. They also have a deeply spiritual side and are the only group of Jews that proselytizes (sp). I have a lot of respect for them and have learned a great deal from them.
I would be very interested in learning more about the Koran. I had a number of Moslem friends growing up, but back then we were more interested in the cute boys and latest fashion trends. They have all since grown up, of course, and most of them have gone back to their birth countries.It refers to gossip and slander, negative speech.
I am not 100% certain, but I think "Inner Bible" is sort of a figure of speech specific to that article. I think it is simply a reference to the women in the Bible who have gotten so little attention over many generations of a dominated society. It is a way to remind both men and women, that women are equally important.There are Rabbi's, wise men (sometimes referred to as sages) and women who are looked up to for their scholarly knowledge, good deeds, etc. How much emphasis is placed upon them, how much would be taught about them would, probably depend on what specific subject you are researching. We do not do weekly teachings in the same way TWI or many churches do. Rather, we work our way through the O.T. over and over again, one week at a time. It is a cycle, so that every year it starts over again. This Friday, we will read the same verses that were read a year ago this Friday.
Teaching, studying, etc., is a separate thing from the Sabbath services. You can join study groups, you can study on your own, you can study on-line. The temples often offer various classes that you are free to take or not as you choose. It is truly a no pressure atmosphere, with lots of room for debate and discussion.
Jewish people are often very proud of their equal treatment of women, and it is something to be proud of. But, if you take an honest look at O.T. laws, you will find they do not always play in a woman's favor so well. That being said, there are a number of scholars who would say historically, the Jewish people were often "ahead of their time" in this area. (i.e. even though the O.T. laws make women seem a bit like property, they still offered women more protections than women had in other cultures during that period of time). We continue to make strides in this area, with teachings such as the ones I linked you too, that remind us that although the O.T. appears very patriarchal, those partriarchs would have been in a heap of trouble if it weren't for the women who were their mothers, sisters and wives.
I find the Shechina studies very fascinating. The Chassidics, who are the only ones who really publicly and openly teach anything in depth about it (as part of Kabbalah - sp), do not view it as godess worship or polytheism. They simply view the Shechina as a female aspect of a many faceted God. Some of the Jewish groups outside of the Chassidics view this as something that borders on, if not crosses the line into goddess worship. Yet, despite this, they also sing a welcoming song to her every Friday night in the temple, often without even being fully aware of what they are doing or what the song means - although I think this too is begninning to change, thanks to the internet. :)
That being said, it is clear from the O.T. that the Jewish people did believe in many Gods and Goddesses, hence they repeatedly got in trouble for worshipping them, so it is not surprising to see those teachings still prevelant within Judaism in some form or fashion. Also, it is entirely likely that a number of the rituals, traditions, and O.T. stories came from cultures that worshipped other gods, cultures that the people of the O.T. assimilated into throughout the ages. This can perhaps be seen in Genesis where God says "let US make man in OUR image" and "lest man become like US".
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Eyesopen
I wish that they translated the Koran into English but they do not. As I recall however we would open up the Bible and he would open up his Koran to the same acount of history and we would compair what each said concerning an event or group of people or any number of other things. The Koran diverges sharply from biblical accounts after the OT. It also documents historical events that occured in a region or to a people that did not include the Israelites. Its kind of like getting a history book that related only the events that occured to General Grants army and then another book that only related the events that occured to General Lee. They would diverge or substantiate each other on some accounts but others would have no corresponding event.
I really love the way they addressed the issue. Well done.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Abigail
God loves you my dear friend
I read #1 post but not all the replies so if this as been said before I am sorry to say the same thing to whoever may of said these words earier
If the Moabite, are to be forever excluded from Israel that does not mean they are excluded from God.
Zoar was outside the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah from what I can see some how but it leaves questions
but back to this book it sounds like a good book
is it on the net to download or is it only in paper form
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Eyesopen
This is a really refreshing concept in some ways. But it also seems a bit restrictive. Are the Jewish people encouraged to read and study material outside of their Talmud?
Do they let anyone take their classes or is it a Jewish only thing? I might have to look some up if they will let me.
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Eyesopen
I'm with you this is some interesting stuff. I have been talking to a Wicca follower from work for a while now. She explains her goddess in much the same way you just explained Shechina. The Wicca have both a male and a female aspect of their god/goddess. Both are venerated with roughly the same respect. Some other religions have only the goddess. Yet others only the male or god side of the pair.
I find it most interesting that as you say/quote God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" I personally question if that is really a King James "ism" as we were taught as it is not the only time that God refers to other gods. He never disputes that there are more and he does not ever qualify that the Devil is the only other one. God says on more than one occassion to Israel not to worship any other gods before Him. "Gods" plural. Our God just happens to be the big dog on the block. This is His world and everyone of the others are here at His indulgance.
It is certain that with all of the interaction through trading, marrying and just plain socializing a great deal of ideas got swapped between Israel and everyone else.
I must say I like the way that you think Abi, you don't keep you mind or your beliefs in a gilded doctrinal cage. It's good to think outside the box! I cruzed around that site for a while...they are pretty insightful. It is intersting that for very strict Jews they seem to be pretty progressive, like the way that they view women.
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Eyesopen
Hi Roy sweetie!
If I remember correctly the only reason that Zoar was saved was because Lot was old and out of shape and because he had waited too long to leave Sodom. So much so that the Angels had to transport him and his family outside of the city without any of their belongings. He was told that he had to be in the mountains by dawn and it was already well past midnight. So Lot begged the Angel to allow him and his family to go to the "small city" Zoar (Zoar means little) that was not far away and stay there until it was all over. Well God told the Angel that he would spare Zoar for Lot's sake.
So it was by no "good deed" or anything on the part of the populace of Zoar that they were spared the same fate as their four sister cities.
Love ya
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Abigail
Very good, Roy, I would agree and so would the author of the book. One of the conclusions he draws in the book is that the idea of relgious "tolerance" is there in the Bible - that there were times of intolerance, yes, but also times of tolerance.
Eyes explained the Zoar section in very similar fashion to what the author did, as well. Jonathan Kirsch takes some lierary liberties though, and imagines that when Lot and his family reached Zoar, the town was still standing, but had been abandonded by the inhabitants, perhaps because they saw what occured in Sodom and Gomorrah. His reasoning for this, is that he is trying to understand why Lot and his daughters eventually fled to the mountains, after succesfully negotiating for permission to go to Zoar instead.
I don't know if the book is available in a download or not. I picked it up at a local bookstore. I would think it would be available at the library as well.
Good to see you. :)
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year2027
God first
Beloved Eyesopen
God loves you my dear friend
thank you Eyesopen that fixes with my understanding it been a while since I read about that period of time
love you too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
God first
Beloved Abigail
God loves you my dear friend
it blesses me that you agree and I like the ideal of tolerance or intolerance.
I will look at my local bookstore
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Abigail
Eyes, do you know if the Moslem's believe in "original sin" and a messiah? And if they do believe in a messiah, is it a spiritual one or a worldly king? Also, I am curious as to their take on Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac and the reason why Sarah was so adamant that Hagar and Ishmael leave. :) Not that I have any questions or anything - HA
Oh sure. The shabbat service is just one part of the entire "community" of Judaism. There is great emphasis on education, whatever area interests you. Plus, as I said, there are volumes upon volumes of oral traditions and rabbinical arguments debating what it all means.
It isn't intended to restrictive - it is really more methodical. A way of working your way through all of it. And, it is kind of cool to think that all over the world, on the same evening, Jewish people everywhere are reading the same section, pondering its meaning, lighting candles, etc.
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Abigail
As for letting anyone take their classes - again, I do not know for a certainty, but I think many would be open to it, particularly if you were to inquire at a Reform synagogue. Here, you can take classes at the Synagogue and there are also free seminars on the college campus. Chabad has on-line classes. I've never taken one, but I somehow doubt they would limit them to only Jewish people.
Learning is very much encouraged, converstion is less encouraged. The Jewish people see it this way - - We are all, Jew or not, God's children.
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Abigail
It is NOT a King James "ism", though I do think that is what TWI taught. The plural usages are in the various Torah translations as well. The Kabbalah says of these verse, that God was conversing with the angels/spirit beings. This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but it could take all day to write it all out. :)
Judaism does not believe in a devil in the same manner Christians do. There are verses that refer to idols from other religions as "gods that are not gods," however, that does not eliminate the idea that other cultures may have worshipped other spiritual beings, nor does it mean other spiritual beings (other gods) do not exist. Or it could be that we have all always worshipped the same God in different ways.Yes. They have practices that would be frowned upon by many of the feminists, but when you examine the great heart behind those practices and the high regard they have for women, it doesn't strike me as chuavanistic (sp) at all. In many ways, they have more respect for women than is often found in the secular realm.
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Abigail
Zipporah
Very little attention has been paid to Zipporah. We know she was Moses wife, but we know little about who she was as an individual. One of the few verses that mentions her is below.
Exodus 4:24ff "At a night encampent on the way, the Lord encountered him [Moses[ and sought to kill him. So Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched his legs with it, saying, "You are truly a bridgeroom of blood to me!" and when He let him alone, she added, "A bridegroom of bllod because of teh circumcision."
It is a very difficult verse, both the sages of old and the more conteporary scholars have a difficult time knowing what to do with this verse. God trying to kill Moses!?! I know, TWI would have attributed that to the Devil, via idiom of permission. Judaism does not believe in the devil. Even if there were a devil, Judaism would never grant him the power to supercede God's will.
The traditional explanation is that God sought to kill Moses because he failed to keep the covenant by circumcising his son. Zipporah is said to be a Midianite (there is a later reference regarding Moses having a wife who is a Cudange - whether this second reference is to Zipporah or another wife is unclear). Circumcision was a ritual that was not specific only to the Jewish people. Midianites also circumcised their children, as did Egyptians and some of the people of Canaan - but not at such a young age. There is an old oral tradition that says Moses and his father-in-law struck a deal regarding how the children would be raised and when they would be circumcised.
Another theory links these verses to the Goddess Isis. Isis was the wife and sister of Osiris, who was killed by his jealous brother, Seth, who tricked him into lying down inside a wooden chest then sealed the chest and placed it in the Nile. Seth later dismembers Osiris' body and scatters the pieces. Isis manages to track down all of the remains of Osiris, but one, his penis.
One argument in the Midrash suggests there is a link between circumcision and the practice of sacrificing children that once existed. As the Israelites put the blood of a lamb on their doorposts on the evening of Passover, when the first born of the Egyptians were killed, so the ritual of circumcision is something of a blood offering to God.
But anyway you look at it, it was Zipporah who saved Moses' life that night. In fact, throughout his life, time and time again he was spared by women. First, his sister, then Pharoh's daughter, and here Zipporah.
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Eyesopen
My dear Roy it is always a pleasure to talk to you and an even greater pleasure to actually assit you in something.
God Bless you my lovely friend
And a bunch of "Eyes" kisses blowing your way, not sure if they are holy or anything but they can be soggy, does that count?
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