Perhaps the abuse was so huge to the victim, so traumatic and life changing, that it is always present to one degree or another, coloring everything. Perhaps it some how defines who they are today, and by retelling it they reassure themselves that they are not there now, that it was bad, but it happened then, not today.
I have friend who lost a fiance in a bad car accident which she survived. She has retold the story of the accident many times, I think to try to explain who she is to herself as well as to others. If you don't know this about her, you don't know her at all...
I think, in telling the story over again, it helps reduce the sting, it starts to have less power in your life. It also can help you gain perspective and understanding, particularly if you are discussing it with other people who have had similar experiences and there is a give and take dialogue going on.
Beyond that, in this particular forum - because it played such a huge and traumatic role in the lives of so many who were involved in TWI, we often draw on our experience to explain why we have a particular point of view.
I think it depends on the context in which the abuse is discussed. If someone is tells the story as background leading into a point to the story, that's one thing. If they're just saying it for sympathy or to hear themselves type, that's another. I don't generally engage or have a lot of respect for the latter.
People work through things differently and some are just more graceful at it than others.
Aye, there is that too. And yet, I think, as we start to let go of that hope and accept that there will be no resolution - we begin to find that which we have been looking for all along. What we are looking for, we will ultimately only find within ourselves first.
99.9 perecent of the people I know, have no idea of what happened to me as a child or that I was even invovled in TWI, nevertheless what happened to me in TWI. Come to my house for dinner and I can and will discuss a wide range of topics with you from pirates of old to the piracy problem growing today, to autism, politics (I will probably just smile and nod a lot even if I don't agree) gardening and growing herbs and if you're into cards or board games of some sort, I will be right there playing hard and laughing and talking the loudest.
I know a few people here on the forum, none of them know my full story of what happened to me in TWI. Only I know and my husband. So I know even with what I have posted, I have severely held back and I have held back when in the company of ex TWI people. Why? I don't know. I figured I didn't want to share the exact details. It's humilating, it stirs up the anger, the rage. When my life was treated like it didn't matter, when I was pushed to a point I was pushed to, when I was allowed to be "FONDLED" (I am learning to hate that word) and I was told to put up with it, that if a better looking brother in Christ did it that I probably wouldn't mind, so quite being a respector of persons, when I was told I would DIE, that God would forsake me and the devil would kill me if I had the gall to leave a commitment because my WOW VET (a program for WOW VETS in Tennessee 1981-1983) brother wouldn't keep his freaking hands off my breasts, I was still too ashamed to speak up even though I knew I was not in the wrong.
Why bring it up? It is the very essence of TWI. It was the very core attitude most men held against women. And this forum allows such sharings. To speak of TWI and it's short comings is to speak of the horrors that it held for many of us. If this was a gardening forum or a gourmet cooking forum, such sharings would be hmmm odd. But not here.
Do I think about these things everyday? Hell no. I had totally put TWI out of my mind until I came back and started reading again and started thinking about what happened and I am now dealing with it.
BTW, I don't consider myself a victim. If you ever met me in person, you would see that. I am pretty bold when I have to be and sometimes when I don't need to be (ooops). I am reasonably sane, I own a home, I have one child in college studying to be a doctor and another doing extremely well. I am not meek and mild and I am great at my employment. I survived and will continue to survive.
Sometimes sharing allows us to explore things, feelings and memories we hadn't before. It is a pruning.
This stuff never goes away. We don't get over it, we learn to live with it. We don't get over people dying, we learn to live with the person's death and change the way we live. Sexual abuse is like that. It is that deep, it is that traumatic that dealing with it will shape our lives. It is not a simple disappointment or set back. It is a life altering experience that strikes at the very soul of the invidual.
TWI was rife with it. It needs to be shared. For all those who are out there reading, for those who think they are alone with what happened to them, for those spouses of women dealing with what happened to them, they can see they are not alone and can hopefully now start learning how to pick up their own pieces and go on. The worse any one can think is that they were alone. Or that they caused it or they did something wrong. Now they know it's not them because of the stories that get shared here.
Abuse (sexual or otherwise) is abnormal behavior. It not only violates...it leaves a mark.. One feels like they are the only one with the mark. Until you find out others have the same mark.
It is part of the support in surviving and eventually, hopefully thriving to discuss it. Death has its phases, being diagnosed with cancer has the same thing. The living left from a death can only relate to those who have also dealt closely with death....Others cannot relate.
Post abuse is not too different in that it almost demands a support structure to scaffold ones way back to accepting themelves and a myriad of other psychological issues.
I know where of I speak... but I have nw moved to the place of listening more and sharing less of my crazy early life. Some here know about it, but none the less, when the time finally came that I could talk to someone who ouldn't judge my craziness, I was relieved.
I bring it up each time a VPW fan tried to imply he was a martyr, infallible, or worth our unchallanged loyalty even years after the exposure.
I do not bring it up for attention, to be a victim or to get sympathy. I bring it up for balance. When someone writes about their loyalty to the end that they “do not care” what they heard about VPW, or if anyone suggests it is a rumor, or if they say it is hearsay. I witnessed it, therefore I bring it up as I can be a first person witness.
I bring it up to help others understand WHO they are worshiping, WHAT kind of man they have decided to follow, even after death. I bring it up to help break blind alliance so perhaps someone out there may/can be set free.
Since, it is being discussed again I have gotten e-mails from newbies who knew something wasn’t right but never got to talk to someone who was there – so-to-speak.
These are my reasons.
To me, from the point of empowerment:
There is strength in helping others and a journey to go from being a cripple to a warrior. The story may first be told as almost a feeler – will people believe me? Will they bash me? Will they blame me because I have a vagina? Then, a few people connect and there is a small group of healing people becoming emboldened, as they are able to discuss it without rebuff. Then, one day you get rebuffed or suffer a strong rebuke and it is a little painful and makes one wobble and nearly crawl back into the silence, but you have already brought it up and found part of the strength of the abuse is in the secret of it.
So, timidly you fight back and give voice to the girl/woman who was brutally injured. And after a few times – or many times you do not fear the unbelievers. And soon you can confront your attacker – in person— in a letter – or in a private place where you merely YELL at the memory. Soon, you find yourself across the bridge, the one that started out as victim then ended as a warrior, or lecturer, or rape counselor, or rape volunteer. You become someone who can help others on the journey to health.
The scoffers fade, they still whine and point fingers but you barely hear their squeal, and their rebuke does not matter. It does not hurt. And you are healed and truly can help others. If it bothers others to read it, well either they lack empathy, or are tired of it, do not believe you, or are ignorant of the vile depth of the offense and the lingering after effects . None of these things will stop one who KNOWS they have reached other cripples and took them across the bridge to health. It is such a joy to cross this bridge. It is such a rough and painful journey.
First of all I have never been a victim from any sexual abuse, be it rape, child molestation etc. And I don't fully undertand what must go on in the abused one's mind after going through such a horrible experience.
What I am trying to understand is why people post their experience about how they were abused, not just once or twice but over and over, doesn't that kinda take you back to where you are reliving it again and again. Would you not just want to deal with it and then move on.......but they feel the need to share it over and over again how they were abused and I just want to know , how come?
There is a good reason at the start for your question that follows. I don't either. And, no matter how much you try to put yourself in a victim's place mentally, to try to understand how horrible the victim's experience was, you can't really know. More importantly, posting accounts instead of just talking about how "so many" suffered makes a big difference in believability.
Your question is actually a very good one. One would wonder why a victim would want to relive a horrible experience, and risk getting hurt more by others in the process. Maybe it would be to help some of us non victims understand better.
Where I get pasted is my assertion that there are not all that many actual accounts such as your post might imply; and I think it is probably for the reasons you gave....reliving the hurt, getting hurt more by others, a resulting mistrust of others that can be very understandable, and so on. Often it is just people talking about the subject. Sometime after I have heard someone refer to all the testimony that has been given, and ask where is it, I have been told I should be able to look it up myself, or just discounted with a response like "If you wont believe my (second hand) recounting of someone's experience, you wouldn't believe her direct testimony" as a reason why I don't get to see/hear that firsthand testimony. That kind of response makes me wonder if it exists, even though I can otherwise try to understand how difficult it must be for someone to relive an experience that was horrible beyond anything I have gone through.
If an actual testimony, like we see at the start of Sunesis' post on page 7 of the "Does TWI need to be good" thread is just the "tip of the iceberg", then if someone DOES think it important to relive their actual experience to others, maybe it is because they see the importance and/or believe that there are people who can honor the trust given to them. If neither of us has experienced abuse, then we need these accounts to understand "the other side". Maybe...just maybe...a victims way of thinking can sometimes be to help the rest of us understand.
because if the water is pure...there cannot be one molecule of contaminant.
Leaders in TWI represented TWI as the closest thing to heaven this side of the clouds..when in fact it was hell for some people.
Does it matter that it was not hell for a lot of others...yes...becaue if we only elevate the "not hell" experience, we call the water pure when it isn't.
calling it a victim's way of thinking might need to be viewed as a whistler blower's way of thinking.
To label it as a victim is (Im sure not intentional) is loaded with a lot of insinuation...
nobody like the whiny poor me selfish thing, but the "victims" we have seen here are strong and not selfish. Stronger than many frankly....because for everyone that speaks up, we know statistically there are many who are not speaking up for very complicated reasons.
If I continue to be quiet while I know bad things are happening, I might as well be consenting to them.
zat help?
obviously...speaking up has contexts...such as the difference between speaking up in TWI vs. speaking up against a gang member in your neighborhood....the method must be weighed, but nonetheless, its what that "mentality" is that cowgirl was asking about ----I think..
The first....For example...when we found out about the Lawsuit by Paul Allen against LCM and others, we copied the opening legal documents and sent them to every believer in New Mexico....because Tom Horrocks...our leader at the time lied ---extreme miniimization to the max -- about the lawsuit. He lied about several things. We were not silent. We mailed the paperwork to the 48 families here at that time.
but its not a victim mentality---more of a whistle blower mentality.
Was the woman who busted ENRON a "victim" she lost her retirement too. I think she was a hero...a whistle blower, and she probably talks about it now and then...maybe not as much
but to isolate speaking about criminal acts to only the "victims of sex abuse" speaking up also minimizes the concept of right and wrong....this comes back to the boundary issues mentioned on another thread.
the whole title "victim of ....XYZ..." sorta dilutes the actual crime...IT IS A CRIME.. IT IS PROSECUTABLE in most cases.
Talking about it builds some kind of strength and momentum to enforce the idea that the perp was definatley WRONG...not just a poor misguided soul.
If we don't talk about it then what???
what would happen if they never talked about leaving English oppression in the 15/1600's ?
what would happen if the discrimination of blacks and women and other minorities wasn't talked about?
what would happen if we never talked about the things that are important to us?
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SafariVista
it doesn't go away.....
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excathedra
i don't know
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ChattyKathy
I asked myself and others the same question and I still don't know the answer but it's a darn good question Cowgirl.
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Oakspear
I'm just guessing here, but maybe the need to post their experience repeatedly would not be necessary if others didn't deny such things happened.
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Bramble
Perhaps the abuse was so huge to the victim, so traumatic and life changing, that it is always present to one degree or another, coloring everything. Perhaps it some how defines who they are today, and by retelling it they reassure themselves that they are not there now, that it was bad, but it happened then, not today.
I have friend who lost a fiance in a bad car accident which she survived. She has retold the story of the accident many times, I think to try to explain who she is to herself as well as to others. If you don't know this about her, you don't know her at all...
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Abigail
I think, in telling the story over again, it helps reduce the sting, it starts to have less power in your life. It also can help you gain perspective and understanding, particularly if you are discussing it with other people who have had similar experiences and there is a give and take dialogue going on.
Beyond that, in this particular forum - because it played such a huge and traumatic role in the lives of so many who were involved in TWI, we often draw on our experience to explain why we have a particular point of view.
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ChasUFarley
I think it depends on the context in which the abuse is discussed. If someone is tells the story as background leading into a point to the story, that's one thing. If they're just saying it for sympathy or to hear themselves type, that's another. I don't generally engage or have a lot of respect for the latter.
People work through things differently and some are just more graceful at it than others.
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pawtucket
The undying hope for resolution
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ChattyKathy
I can say I see it differently today than I ever have and I'm encouraged for myself selfishly.
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Abigail
Aye, there is that too. And yet, I think, as we start to let go of that hope and accept that there will be no resolution - we begin to find that which we have been looking for all along. What we are looking for, we will ultimately only find within ourselves first.
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FullCircle
99.9 perecent of the people I know, have no idea of what happened to me as a child or that I was even invovled in TWI, nevertheless what happened to me in TWI. Come to my house for dinner and I can and will discuss a wide range of topics with you from pirates of old to the piracy problem growing today, to autism, politics (I will probably just smile and nod a lot even if I don't agree) gardening and growing herbs and if you're into cards or board games of some sort, I will be right there playing hard and laughing and talking the loudest.
I know a few people here on the forum, none of them know my full story of what happened to me in TWI. Only I know and my husband. So I know even with what I have posted, I have severely held back and I have held back when in the company of ex TWI people. Why? I don't know. I figured I didn't want to share the exact details. It's humilating, it stirs up the anger, the rage. When my life was treated like it didn't matter, when I was pushed to a point I was pushed to, when I was allowed to be "FONDLED" (I am learning to hate that word) and I was told to put up with it, that if a better looking brother in Christ did it that I probably wouldn't mind, so quite being a respector of persons, when I was told I would DIE, that God would forsake me and the devil would kill me if I had the gall to leave a commitment because my WOW VET (a program for WOW VETS in Tennessee 1981-1983) brother wouldn't keep his freaking hands off my breasts, I was still too ashamed to speak up even though I knew I was not in the wrong.
Why bring it up? It is the very essence of TWI. It was the very core attitude most men held against women. And this forum allows such sharings. To speak of TWI and it's short comings is to speak of the horrors that it held for many of us. If this was a gardening forum or a gourmet cooking forum, such sharings would be hmmm odd. But not here.
Do I think about these things everyday? Hell no. I had totally put TWI out of my mind until I came back and started reading again and started thinking about what happened and I am now dealing with it.
BTW, I don't consider myself a victim. If you ever met me in person, you would see that. I am pretty bold when I have to be and sometimes when I don't need to be (ooops). I am reasonably sane, I own a home, I have one child in college studying to be a doctor and another doing extremely well. I am not meek and mild and I am great at my employment. I survived and will continue to survive.
Sometimes sharing allows us to explore things, feelings and memories we hadn't before. It is a pruning.
This stuff never goes away. We don't get over it, we learn to live with it. We don't get over people dying, we learn to live with the person's death and change the way we live. Sexual abuse is like that. It is that deep, it is that traumatic that dealing with it will shape our lives. It is not a simple disappointment or set back. It is a life altering experience that strikes at the very soul of the invidual.
TWI was rife with it. It needs to be shared. For all those who are out there reading, for those who think they are alone with what happened to them, for those spouses of women dealing with what happened to them, they can see they are not alone and can hopefully now start learning how to pick up their own pieces and go on. The worse any one can think is that they were alone. Or that they caused it or they did something wrong. Now they know it's not them because of the stories that get shared here.
That is just my opinion.
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washingtonweather
Abuse (sexual or otherwise) is abnormal behavior. It not only violates...it leaves a mark.. One feels like they are the only one with the mark. Until you find out others have the same mark.
It is part of the support in surviving and eventually, hopefully thriving to discuss it. Death has its phases, being diagnosed with cancer has the same thing. The living left from a death can only relate to those who have also dealt closely with death....Others cannot relate.
Post abuse is not too different in that it almost demands a support structure to scaffold ones way back to accepting themelves and a myriad of other psychological issues.
I know where of I speak... but I have nw moved to the place of listening more and sharing less of my crazy early life. Some here know about it, but none the less, when the time finally came that I could talk to someone who ouldn't judge my craziness, I was relieved.
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Dot Matrix
I bring it up each time a VPW fan tried to imply he was a martyr, infallible, or worth our unchallanged loyalty even years after the exposure.
I do not bring it up for attention, to be a victim or to get sympathy. I bring it up for balance. When someone writes about their loyalty to the end that they “do not care” what they heard about VPW, or if anyone suggests it is a rumor, or if they say it is hearsay. I witnessed it, therefore I bring it up as I can be a first person witness.
I bring it up to help others understand WHO they are worshiping, WHAT kind of man they have decided to follow, even after death. I bring it up to help break blind alliance so perhaps someone out there may/can be set free.
Since, it is being discussed again I have gotten e-mails from newbies who knew something wasn’t right but never got to talk to someone who was there – so-to-speak.
These are my reasons.
To me, from the point of empowerment:
There is strength in helping others and a journey to go from being a cripple to a warrior. The story may first be told as almost a feeler – will people believe me? Will they bash me? Will they blame me because I have a vagina? Then, a few people connect and there is a small group of healing people becoming emboldened, as they are able to discuss it without rebuff. Then, one day you get rebuffed or suffer a strong rebuke and it is a little painful and makes one wobble and nearly crawl back into the silence, but you have already brought it up and found part of the strength of the abuse is in the secret of it.
So, timidly you fight back and give voice to the girl/woman who was brutally injured. And after a few times – or many times you do not fear the unbelievers. And soon you can confront your attacker – in person— in a letter – or in a private place where you merely YELL at the memory. Soon, you find yourself across the bridge, the one that started out as victim then ended as a warrior, or lecturer, or rape counselor, or rape volunteer. You become someone who can help others on the journey to health.
The scoffers fade, they still whine and point fingers but you barely hear their squeal, and their rebuke does not matter. It does not hurt. And you are healed and truly can help others. If it bothers others to read it, well either they lack empathy, or are tired of it, do not believe you, or are ignorant of the vile depth of the offense and the lingering after effects . None of these things will stop one who KNOWS they have reached other cripples and took them across the bridge to health. It is such a joy to cross this bridge. It is such a rough and painful journey.
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Lifted Up
There is a good reason at the start for your question that follows. I don't either. And, no matter how much you try to put yourself in a victim's place mentally, to try to understand how horrible the victim's experience was, you can't really know. More importantly, posting accounts instead of just talking about how "so many" suffered makes a big difference in believability.
Your question is actually a very good one. One would wonder why a victim would want to relive a horrible experience, and risk getting hurt more by others in the process. Maybe it would be to help some of us non victims understand better.
Where I get pasted is my assertion that there are not all that many actual accounts such as your post might imply; and I think it is probably for the reasons you gave....reliving the hurt, getting hurt more by others, a resulting mistrust of others that can be very understandable, and so on. Often it is just people talking about the subject. Sometime after I have heard someone refer to all the testimony that has been given, and ask where is it, I have been told I should be able to look it up myself, or just discounted with a response like "If you wont believe my (second hand) recounting of someone's experience, you wouldn't believe her direct testimony" as a reason why I don't get to see/hear that firsthand testimony. That kind of response makes me wonder if it exists, even though I can otherwise try to understand how difficult it must be for someone to relive an experience that was horrible beyond anything I have gone through.
If an actual testimony, like we see at the start of Sunesis' post on page 7 of the "Does TWI need to be good" thread is just the "tip of the iceberg", then if someone DOES think it important to relive their actual experience to others, maybe it is because they see the importance and/or believe that there are people who can honor the trust given to them. If neither of us has experienced abuse, then we need these accounts to understand "the other side". Maybe...just maybe...a victims way of thinking can sometimes be to help the rest of us understand.
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washingtonweather
because if the water is pure...there cannot be one molecule of contaminant.
Leaders in TWI represented TWI as the closest thing to heaven this side of the clouds..when in fact it was hell for some people.
Does it matter that it was not hell for a lot of others...yes...becaue if we only elevate the "not hell" experience, we call the water pure when it isn't.
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Dot Matrix
WW
Yes indeed.
It is like dating a man who raped two women. But he had 24 women he dated and did not rape.
He is still a rapist.
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washingtonweather
I have said this since Waydale -- Silence is Consent.
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washingtonweather
I need to add this after some thought.
calling it a victim's way of thinking might need to be viewed as a whistler blower's way of thinking.
To label it as a victim is (Im sure not intentional) is loaded with a lot of insinuation...
nobody like the whiny poor me selfish thing, but the "victims" we have seen here are strong and not selfish. Stronger than many frankly....because for everyone that speaks up, we know statistically there are many who are not speaking up for very complicated reasons.
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Dot Matrix
WW
I do not get what you mean
Silence is consent?
What if you are knocked out?
Help?
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washingtonweather
If I continue to be quiet while I know bad things are happening, I might as well be consenting to them.
zat help?
obviously...speaking up has contexts...such as the difference between speaking up in TWI vs. speaking up against a gang member in your neighborhood....the method must be weighed, but nonetheless, its what that "mentality" is that cowgirl was asking about ----I think..
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Dot Matrix
It didn't help me.
Sorry
I took a stupid pill
You mean to keep silent about talking about the rape is to give consent -- so girls discuss it?
Or you mean when the guy raped you if you didn't speak "no" you gave the rapist consent.
Cause I see the first.
The second would not be right, so I think I am having a brain "f@rt" trying to get your meaning
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washingtonweather
The first....For example...when we found out about the Lawsuit by Paul Allen against LCM and others, we copied the opening legal documents and sent them to every believer in New Mexico....because Tom Horrocks...our leader at the time lied ---extreme miniimization to the max -- about the lawsuit. He lied about several things. We were not silent. We mailed the paperwork to the 48 families here at that time.
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Dot Matrix
Got it
You Rock!
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washingtonweather
but its not a victim mentality---more of a whistle blower mentality.
Was the woman who busted ENRON a "victim" she lost her retirement too. I think she was a hero...a whistle blower, and she probably talks about it now and then...maybe not as much
but to isolate speaking about criminal acts to only the "victims of sex abuse" speaking up also minimizes the concept of right and wrong....this comes back to the boundary issues mentioned on another thread.
the whole title "victim of ....XYZ..." sorta dilutes the actual crime...IT IS A CRIME.. IT IS PROSECUTABLE in most cases.
Talking about it builds some kind of strength and momentum to enforce the idea that the perp was definatley WRONG...not just a poor misguided soul.
If we don't talk about it then what???
what would happen if they never talked about leaving English oppression in the 15/1600's ?
what would happen if the discrimination of blacks and women and other minorities wasn't talked about?
what would happen if we never talked about the things that are important to us?
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