The best thing a "reformed, repentant" abuser can do if they wanted to help is to tell us how they operate, not how the National Child Abuser Listing should be changed. They can tell us what it was that made them pick their victim, what they search for in parental/child relationships that makes one child easier than another. They can tell us how these predators wait and lurk. What does the predator learn about the child and how do they learn it? What jobs do they get in order to gain access to children. Do they come in contact with the children's parents? Do they try to gain the trust of the child and parents and hey, maybe even school officials? How do they cover their tracks? What lies do they tell the children to be able to touch them and have the child remain quiet about it afterwards? Do they use threats of killing the child, or do they threaten to kill the child's family or do they (oh and many of them do do this) themselves tell the child that if Mom and Dad and their Pastor find out what happened, no one would love them anymore because now they are dirty? There you have the abuser himself putting that stigma of being damaged goods and not society.
This was why I posted my disappointment in the beginning because I wanted to engage in a way that I could understand from a real person rather than stats why I was chosen as a baby to abuse and why I was chosen again as an adult.
I already know what I think I understand and in my case I was a bastard child born from a rape and thus my grandpa didn't consider me his blood so why not use me for his sexual needs for 5 years of my life, after all I was damaged goods at birth and he had a witch wife that never put out so why not let me service him. I say that in anger and disgust because he was a sick f%$& and that's the bottom line!
And as an adult it was obvious I was over the top in personal desires so why not take advantage of me for his personal needs since I was already screwed up and trying to do my best but had proven I could be controlled so why not just continue to use me for the service I had been imprisoned in before. I say that in anger and disgust because again he was a sick f@*+ and that's the bottom line!
But I wanted to engage with a person that could not reach out and touch me but who I thought could help me see into his sickness of soul and mind so that I could understand because try as I might there is still a part of inside me that needs to know. I've been told and do believe it was not my fault and I did not bring it on me but I wanted more understanding. Simple as that!
And this has nothing to do with my realizing boundaries if that makes sense.
it will reappear itself. I don't shut the door on the past.
I don't go to the meetings anymore, but I'm always welcome dry or drunk.
I don't need the meetings any more.
The whole deal, which was more then meetings,
was a big enough punch in the face to wake me up.
And live soberly without being tempted.
I don't run from a beer but I don't drink it.
Others can have all they want to and be with me and still I will not drink.
I know the consequences.
This anothen needs to get to the place that he can look at a little girl and not even have one sexual thought. I think it can be done. But I don't know, I haven't worked in this area any. But God is big enough to heal anything. It's a matter of is one willing to be healed.
Time is short.......
(I'm talking to my nephew overseas also so delays are for this reason)
You have a good understanding of this subject as best I can see and I do know that even if a drunk gives up the booze they will remain a dry drunk if they don't understand what drove them to hide behind the booze in the first place.
Thank you and I don't share that for the attention but for the understanding of anyone that may wish to read me and think it through. I guess that is why I get so angry at times here because I understand my intentions and not always understand everyone else's. Then I go into shame I could have hurt someone in my need to stop the presses at times.
No doubt all due to who and what I have been through.
I was a victim at age 12. That was the absolute end of my childhood. I started drinking after that to self medicate (I stole from any liquer cabinet I could get near). It's a wound that scabs over but never heals
Rationalize it anyway you want, the change of society, sign of the times, Longevity of life. Our laws say its wrong as do many other countries laws. Within a prison population where does a child molestor fit in? - at the absolute bottom of the feeding pole. I understand child predators have the shortest lives of anyone in a prison population. Even our convicted murderers, rapists, robbers have standards and these people don't even meet up to that standard
I sent Kathy a PM, and she has asked/given permission for me to post it here. For reasons of my own, I will not post the entire message, but I will put forth excerpts and I will put forth some other parts with changes.
Understanding such a dark mind won't help you heal - it will simply repulse you. The dark mind of a predator will not help you heal, because he will continue to heap the blame on you. He will continue to refer to you as the one who was the aggressor, you as the one who failed somehow, as the one who deserves the shame. He will reinforce what you already wrongfully believe somewhere inside of you. He cannot take responsibility upon himself - how could he? How could a mind allow itself to comprehend the damage he had selfishless and willingly inflicted on an innocent child? It can't - so it blames instead. In a sense, the blaming of the victim is the predators built in self-defense mechanism - it's survival instinct. The predator doesn't see his victim as a real human being, he sees his victim as an object, a thing. He has to, in order for his mind to allow him to do what he does and not be repulsed by who he is.
Hearing he too was abused as a child still won't help you heal - it will only further play on your emotions. Yes, it is very likely he was abused as a child in some form or fashion. Yes that is a terrible, terrible, thing. Unfortunately, knowing that does not fix the dark and twisty places of his mind. Knowing that does not heal him. Knowing most likely won't even heal you.
Your predator usually choses you out of convenience - he has access to you. It could just as easily been another child, it had nothing to do with who you were, and everything to do with being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Everything to do with access. You were more readily accessable than some other child.
It is hard to let go of that mindset, no? Hard to write it off as "wrong place, wrong time". Hard to see it as something random that could have happened to another child instead of you. I think, in some sense, probably because we so desperately need to make sense out of something that is so senseless, we have to own the responsiblity as our own. We have to accep the blame somehow, because if we have no blame - if we have no responsiblity in being a victim as a child - then we have no control. If we can chose to be the victim, it gives us some sense of control.
For those of us who were repeat victims, into adulthood - I will also share this though it may not apply to everyone, I think it will apply to some. . .
It was the loss of personal boundaries as a child, that made you such easy prey as an adult. Your boundaries were destroyed as a child. There was a loss of a true sense of self too. And then there was the blame the predatory heaped on us. A blame we continue to accept into adulthood because it does give us some sense of control, it in weird sort of way.
If it weren't for those things, you would NEVER as an adult, have tolerated what you did. As an adult, you play a role it what goes on. You allow it, therefore, on some level, you too are responsible. You too are a "part of the dance." I am not saying you deserve it - on the contrary, no one deserves such treatment and no one should put up with it.
To heal, you have to find all the hidden places and thoughts that tell you, you do deserve it, you should put up with it, etc. and eliminate them.
You make statements about being a "used for sex" by men all your life. That is your personal image of yourself. That image is part of why you allow it. When YOU no longer see yourself that way, you will no longer tolerate such horrible treatment. When you can instead say - these men wrongfully abused me, instead of I was their sex toy then you will begin to change your self-image and you will see your entire life change, really. I know, sounds simple, but in practice it is harder.
Oh, by the way. The abuse I suffered from a Boy Scoutmaster. A trusted friend of the family. a pillar of the community, a sexual predator..
Sorry to hear you experienced such pain in your life. Glad you found your way to deliverance.
I have read some of Anothen's stuff on other sites. They guy is not here for help, he seems to be looking for something more in the lines of vidication of which I will not give. The fact that he has not even come out here to prove his remorse shows much to me. If I had been him and had read all the responses to my original post I would have tried to prove my remorse. Show my sorrow for what I have done. Nope nothing from him. What he did only caused a 9 year old slight embarassment and she is recovering nicely. At least that's how he has rationalized it in his mind. His conscience is seared with a hot iron. It will take much for this man to get deliverance, and I don't think it's available here.
The guy should have been castorated. I know that's harsh, but we are talking about innocent children.
Kathy did you ever consider that your friend was the perpetrator in this situation? Might be the reason for her reaction. Just a thought. Those poor children. To suffer that at the hand of a parent.`
No because her little girl had told me when her father had said "time to go to bed" and I saw her little body stiffen up as he walked past her that "daddy tickles me and I don't like it". It was within days of that I watched her baby brother and spoke up to the mother. I should have done it when the little girl said what she did but I kept wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt because I had known him for years and never in my wildest imaginations would have thought he would do something like that to his children.
Good point though, very good point.
Abi,
Thank you!
(now I must be away again as much as I'd rather stay here with y'all)
I have an experience to relate. When one of my sons was three years old, a fourteen year old neighbor boy molested him under the house in the crawl space. Fondled his genitals he did. Mt wife caught him in the act and sent the boy home, and made no big deal over it with my son. When I came home from a long day of sheetrocking, I was told about what happened. I was furious and ashamed and ....ed off that I'd not been able to protect my son and I had murder in my heart. The boy was actually out in the street kicking a soccer ball around. I went out and called him over to the fence and he came, sheepishly. When he got to me, I quickly put both of my hands around his throat and began to strangle him. He turned red and then purple and the veins in his neck were bulging as terror was in his bulging eyes. I wanted to kill him! And, I think I came close, but, in my mind I asked God what He would rather have me do, and, I released the death grip but I still held him by his shirt while I ripped into him verbally. I told him that he was lucky he wasn't dead, and I yelled many things calling him a faggot pedophile piece of s h i t and every other thing in the book. And I am not saying that this was what God told me to do. The only thing I think I did right was to not kill him on the spot. I released the boy and went into the house and allowed my fury and adrenalin to subside. My wife and I decided to not make any more mention of it to our son other than to tell him to never let anyone touch him like that again. We told the neighbor boys parents but did not call the police. The boy, as it turns out had been molested by a Catholic "priest", and this thing went to the top of their church, and the boy underwent intense counseling.
Our opinion, as far as our own son was concened, was that we didn't think that we should have made a big deal of it, but rather to just let it slide from his memory, which it did, and, he has grown up as a normal healthy boy. That's what we chose. We figured that if the authorities and the counselors got involved, that my son would think that he did some terrible thing and that he was some kind of a pervert. And so, we did what we did and it is done. His very young age was the major factor in that decision. The nine year old girl was just too old. But I for one am completely and totally glad that my son has no knowledge of the incident and that it is far far behind him.
I'm so sorry your family had to suffer that even if not as bad as it could have been.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
How could a mind allow itself to comprehend the damage he had selfishless and willingly inflicted on an innocent child? It can't - so it blames instead. In a sense, the blaming of the victim is the predators built in self-defense mechanism - it's survival instinct.
We have to accept the blame somehow, because if we have no blame - if we have no responsibility in being a victim as a child - then we have no control. If we can choose to be the victim, it gives us some sense of control.
If it weren't for those things, you would NEVER as an adult, have tolerated what you did. As an adult, you play a role it what goes on. You allow it, therefore, on some level, you too are responsible. You too are a "part of the dance." I am not saying you deserve it - on the contrary, no one deserves such treatment and no one should put up with it.
When you can instead say - these men wrongfully abused me, instead of I was their sex toy then you will begin to change your self-image and you will see your entire life change, really. I know, sounds simple, but in practice it is harder.
Abi,
I only brought parts of your post here but I wanted to tell you what I've been thinking of since you PM'd me.
That point about it being survival instinct for the abuser to blame the victim is pretty dang eye opening for me and through my therapy I never heard that or if I did I wasn't ready to hear it.
I did learn that accepting some of the blame did give me some sense of having control in the situation though and do know this to be true but must have lapses into my old groves of thinking.
And no, I would never have allowed the dance to continue as an adult (after the initial rape) had I not felt I deserved and was apparently just meant to serve in that capacity since it had always been with me (well since a little thing, so it seemed like always).
Part of being used and abused in a sexual way is clouded with personal desires and that one is probably too bold to have just said but I wanted to add it for consideration of others that might be sorting thru things in their own lives. But no doubt had I not been introduced to sex at not much older than a toddler I would have a different world in this area of my life.
Part of being used and abused in a sexual way is clouded with personal desires and that one is probably too bold to have just said but I wanted to add it for consideration of others that might be sorting thru things in their own lives. But no doubt had I not been introduced to sex at not much older than a toddler I would have a different world in this area of my life.
No not too much. Because we are going to get here eventually, aren't we? It is the part few ever discuss publicly, but at some point, it does need to be discussed, it does need to be acknowledged. I cannot say for a certainty what you mean by "personal desires", but I can speak on this from my own experience and some observations.
Young teenaged girls, as they develop a womanly body and discover they are sexually attractive, learn that there is power in their sexuality. Horny teenaged boys would do just about anything to get a piece, sadly, so would far too many adult men. They begin to experiment with that power, not understanding the full effect of it. Some wind up in very very bad situations as a result, others are luckier. Eventually most figure out that such power is not to be abused - that there are serious consequences to abusing such power, not just for the male, but probably even more so for the girl. Some girls are lucky enough to have mothers who will openly and honestly discuss this power with them, will set boundaries for them and teach them how to set boundaries for themselves.
But for a girl who has been sexually abused - especially when that sexual abuse took place over a long period of time, reining in such power is very difficult, because we feel as if it is the only power we have. We view ourselves not as well rounded people but as a sexual being, a sexual object. And in the end, doesn't it feel better to be in a position to say "yes", than to be taken by force? If we have already been taught our only option is to agree or be forced, then the only option - the only way to take back some control, is to say yes. And how much more control do we have, if we pick first? If we chose the man before one can choose us?
And then there are the feelings of guilt and shame that are intermingled with our natural desire to have sex. Feelings that were instilled in us as young children, in part for some - because they were to young to understand what was going on - because they felt pleasure from the experience and are ashamed of that pleasure. So guilt and shame ultimately become tangled with sexual desire. How does one then learn to feel sexual desire without feeling guilty and ashamed? Without feeling slutty?
Our bodies were designed to feel pleasure from sexual stimulation - there is no shame in that, it is something that was also beyond our control.
So yeah, our natural desire for sex gets all tangled together with feelings regarding power, control, guilt, and shame. Heavy duty stuff - not easily unravelled.
And so, I am happy to report that my son is okay, and very heterosexual and dosn't seem to show any signs of mental abuse that would normallly come with such a situation.....Thank God Almighty....
No not too much. Because we are going to get here eventually, aren't we? It is the part few ever discuss publicly, but at some point, it does need to be discussed, it does need to be acknowledged. I cannot say for a certainty what you mean by "personal desires", but I can speak on this from my own experience and some observations.
Young teenaged girls, as they develop a womanly body and discover they are sexually attractive, learn that there is power in their sexuality. Horny teenaged boys would do just about anything to get a piece, sadly, so would far too many adult men. They begin to experiment with that power, not understanding the full effect of it. Some wind up in very very bad situations as a result, others are luckier. Eventually most figure out that such power is not to be abused - that there are serious consequences to abusing such power, not just for the male, but probably even more so for the girl. Some girls are lucky enough to have mothers who will openly and honestly discuss this power with them, will set boundaries for them and teach them how to set boundaries for themselves.
But for a girl who has been sexually abused - especially when that sexual abuse took place over a long period of time, reining in such power is very difficult, because we feel as if it is the only power we have. We view ourselves not as well rounded people but as a sexual being, a sexual object. And in the end, doesn't it feel better to be in a position to say "yes", than to be taken by force? If we have already been taught our only option is to agree or be forced, then the only option - the only way to take back some control, is to say yes. And how much more control do we have, if we pick first? If we chose the man before one can choose us?
And then there are the feelings of guilt and shame that are intermingled with our natural desire to have sex. Feelings that were instilled in us as young children, in part for some - because they were to young to understand what was going on - because they felt pleasure from the experience and are ashamed of that pleasure. So guilt and shame ultimately become tangled with sexual desire. How does one then learn to feel sexual desire without feeling guilty and ashamed? Without feeling slutty?
Our bodies were designed to feel pleasure from sexual stimulation - there is no shame in that, it is something that was also beyond our control.
So yeah, our natural desire for sex gets all tangled together with feelings regarding power, control, guilt, and shame. Heavy duty stuff - not easily unravelled.
I've read this three times and left and came back. Yeah heavy duty stuff. I can tell you at this particular moment in time the pain of having been me is about as overpoweringly painful as it ever has been Abi and even though I hate this moment in time I am also encouraged by the intensity of it. I need to back away a few more minutes please. I just didn't want you to wonder the impact it had on me. This man coming here has certainly made an imprint on me. One that if I am honest will be life giving rather than life sucking.
I've read this three times and left and came back. Yeah heavy duty stuff. I can tell you at this particular moment in time the pain of having been me is about as overpoweringly painful as it ever has been Abi and even though I hate this moment in time I am also encouraged by the intensity of it. I need to back away a few more minutes please. I just didn't want you to wonder the impact it had on me. This man coming here has certainly made an imprint on me. One that if I am honest will be life giving rather than life sucking.
Its okay. Reply, don't reply. I'll keep the dialogue going as long as you want, and I'll drop it when you want.
For some reason God gave me an inner strength to pull myself out of the worse of fires and He still tells me little things just so I won't have to fret about them when I least expect it. Like this morning I decided to run to McDonalds as a treat for their "healthy" breakfast :wacko: and since I had gone to church last night I wasn't going this morning and just thought it sounded good. I went to pull out of the parking lot and I had this feeling to look in my bag and sure enough they hadn't put my complete order in there. I never check that stuff cause even though I may want the food I just don't reckon it be important enough to do. I know some scoff at that "wee small voice" thing but there would be no reason for me to suddenly stop and check my bag. It made my heart smile to think that God cared enough for me to let me know there was food missing.
When those things happen or someone approaches me and tells me what something I did means to them which includes posters here openly and privately it makes me feel I'm not just used merchandise.
I love me more now than I ever have before but that gets tackled at times and I do regret I can't keep that a reality inside me 100% of the time and am working on it.
If I had the perfect setting to be able to act out the things I think would be best for me it would be easier to accomplish all this but I have to work with handicaps. And I know we all have our personal handicaps in varying degrees.
When I told my mother all the things my life has seen when I was down there this past Christmas it was nearly too much for her to take in. That is part of why I need to be there now. She needs to see I am okay and I will be okay regardless.
I have no idea if I said anything at all here Abi, I'm just typing and will hurry and post it before I think about it too much.
You have offered such wisdom and concern for me in private for years now and I felt this one needed to be out in the open because I know I'm not unique and there are others that can learn as well.
This thread has been hard for me to read through--and a learning time, too.Abi and Kathy, your dialogues back and forth are helping someone else-- me.
Kathy, reading your posts all the way through--geesh, you and I could be bookends!
I've gone through the same emotions as you! Wanting to forgive, wanting to try to accept, thinking it would help me to understand the reasons behind my Dad's self-justification. (He "only fondled me"--I want to barf)
But coming to the realizations that I haven't really set my boundaries firmly enough. When i was raped, I was afraid to fight back, because i didn't want to hurt him. How sick is that? (I was also afraid of the gun he'd set down on the dashboard.) I also willingly took the blame my corps roommate informed me that i was guilty of.
I've gone through some wild ranges of emotion on this thread. Feeling the "need" to forgive, fully accept this person as a valid part of this board. And then rage--at him and everybody else like him. And total discust at him.
I wish Oen hadn't left on account of disagreements about this person.
I do believe God forgives. And we are supposed to forgive, also--especially those who harmed us, or it will eat us alive. But also be able to set firm boundaries--I hadn't realized til this thread that I don't really know how to do that.
Satori, your post about missing an opportunity--I'm not sure that would work with someone like him--I agree with everyone here who has stated he'd never really show his hand. Having him openly post about his rationalizations, I dunno, I don't think it would educate us--for me, it just stirred up a lot of bad memories. I also don't think we ran him off. He left because he didn't get the reaction he wanted.
I don't think this is the right place for his confession--not when so many here have been victimes of this type of abuse.
I find the subject matter of this thread to be very disturbing...at first I thought I would simply not read anymore...and thus avoid having to think about any of this...
...but I went ahead and read all the different posts anyway...
The entire matter of sexually assaulting children is beyond sickening...the various responses are a testamony to how much pain people have gone through...and still go through because of this.
I have no words of advice or comfort for anyone...I am at a loss in understanding this...I have never walked in any of your shoes...but my heart is overwhelmed by the intensity of the pain, the anger, the frustrations that people feel and live with.
There seems to be so much that lies just beneath the surface in people's lives...I walk away from this thread with a heavy heart and a renewed understanding of how important it is to protect the children...
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ChattyKathy
This was why I posted my disappointment in the beginning because I wanted to engage in a way that I could understand from a real person rather than stats why I was chosen as a baby to abuse and why I was chosen again as an adult.
I already know what I think I understand and in my case I was a bastard child born from a rape and thus my grandpa didn't consider me his blood so why not use me for his sexual needs for 5 years of my life, after all I was damaged goods at birth and he had a witch wife that never put out so why not let me service him. I say that in anger and disgust because he was a sick f%$& and that's the bottom line!
And as an adult it was obvious I was over the top in personal desires so why not take advantage of me for his personal needs since I was already screwed up and trying to do my best but had proven I could be controlled so why not just continue to use me for the service I had been imprisoned in before. I say that in anger and disgust because again he was a sick f@*+ and that's the bottom line!
But I wanted to engage with a person that could not reach out and touch me but who I thought could help me see into his sickness of soul and mind so that I could understand because try as I might there is still a part of inside me that needs to know. I've been told and do believe it was not my fault and I did not bring it on me but I wanted more understanding. Simple as that!
And this has nothing to do with my realizing boundaries if that makes sense.
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ChattyKathy
(I'm talking to my nephew overseas also so delays are for this reason)
You have a good understanding of this subject as best I can see and I do know that even if a drunk gives up the booze they will remain a dry drunk if they don't understand what drove them to hide behind the booze in the first place.
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FullCircle
I am sorry what you went through, Chatty Kathy. You are worth so much more and deserved so much better.
*hugs*
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ChattyKathy
Thank you and I don't share that for the attention but for the understanding of anyone that may wish to read me and think it through. I guess that is why I get so angry at times here because I understand my intentions and not always understand everyone else's. Then I go into shame I could have hurt someone in my need to stop the presses at times.
No doubt all due to who and what I have been through.
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Out There
I was a victim at age 12. That was the absolute end of my childhood. I started drinking after that to self medicate (I stole from any liquer cabinet I could get near). It's a wound that scabs over but never heals
Rationalize it anyway you want, the change of society, sign of the times, Longevity of life. Our laws say its wrong as do many other countries laws. Within a prison population where does a child molestor fit in? - at the absolute bottom of the feeding pole. I understand child predators have the shortest lives of anyone in a prison population. Even our convicted murderers, rapists, robbers have standards and these people don't even meet up to that standard
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Out There
Oh, by the way. The abuse I suffered from a Boy Scoutmaster. A trusted friend of the family. a pillar of the community, a sexual predator..
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ChattyKathy
(((((you)))))
I'm so sorry.
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Abigail
I sent Kathy a PM, and she has asked/given permission for me to post it here. For reasons of my own, I will not post the entire message, but I will put forth excerpts and I will put forth some other parts with changes.
Understanding such a dark mind won't help you heal - it will simply repulse you. The dark mind of a predator will not help you heal, because he will continue to heap the blame on you. He will continue to refer to you as the one who was the aggressor, you as the one who failed somehow, as the one who deserves the shame. He will reinforce what you already wrongfully believe somewhere inside of you. He cannot take responsibility upon himself - how could he? How could a mind allow itself to comprehend the damage he had selfishless and willingly inflicted on an innocent child? It can't - so it blames instead. In a sense, the blaming of the victim is the predators built in self-defense mechanism - it's survival instinct. The predator doesn't see his victim as a real human being, he sees his victim as an object, a thing. He has to, in order for his mind to allow him to do what he does and not be repulsed by who he is.
Hearing he too was abused as a child still won't help you heal - it will only further play on your emotions. Yes, it is very likely he was abused as a child in some form or fashion. Yes that is a terrible, terrible, thing. Unfortunately, knowing that does not fix the dark and twisty places of his mind. Knowing that does not heal him. Knowing most likely won't even heal you.
Your predator usually choses you out of convenience - he has access to you. It could just as easily been another child, it had nothing to do with who you were, and everything to do with being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Everything to do with access. You were more readily accessable than some other child.
It is hard to let go of that mindset, no? Hard to write it off as "wrong place, wrong time". Hard to see it as something random that could have happened to another child instead of you. I think, in some sense, probably because we so desperately need to make sense out of something that is so senseless, we have to own the responsiblity as our own. We have to accep the blame somehow, because if we have no blame - if we have no responsiblity in being a victim as a child - then we have no control. If we can chose to be the victim, it gives us some sense of control.
For those of us who were repeat victims, into adulthood - I will also share this though it may not apply to everyone, I think it will apply to some. . .
It was the loss of personal boundaries as a child, that made you such easy prey as an adult. Your boundaries were destroyed as a child. There was a loss of a true sense of self too. And then there was the blame the predatory heaped on us. A blame we continue to accept into adulthood because it does give us some sense of control, it in weird sort of way.
If it weren't for those things, you would NEVER as an adult, have tolerated what you did. As an adult, you play a role it what goes on. You allow it, therefore, on some level, you too are responsible. You too are a "part of the dance." I am not saying you deserve it - on the contrary, no one deserves such treatment and no one should put up with it.
To heal, you have to find all the hidden places and thoughts that tell you, you do deserve it, you should put up with it, etc. and eliminate them.
You make statements about being a "used for sex" by men all your life. That is your personal image of yourself. That image is part of why you allow it. When YOU no longer see yourself that way, you will no longer tolerate such horrible treatment. When you can instead say - these men wrongfully abused me, instead of I was their sex toy then you will begin to change your self-image and you will see your entire life change, really. I know, sounds simple, but in practice it is harder.
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FreeAtLast
Sorry to hear you experienced such pain in your life. Glad you found your way to deliverance.
I have read some of Anothen's stuff on other sites. They guy is not here for help, he seems to be looking for something more in the lines of vidication of which I will not give. The fact that he has not even come out here to prove his remorse shows much to me. If I had been him and had read all the responses to my original post I would have tried to prove my remorse. Show my sorrow for what I have done. Nope nothing from him. What he did only caused a 9 year old slight embarassment and she is recovering nicely. At least that's how he has rationalized it in his mind. His conscience is seared with a hot iron. It will take much for this man to get deliverance, and I don't think it's available here.
The guy should have been castorated. I know that's harsh, but we are talking about innocent children.
Kathy did you ever consider that your friend was the perpetrator in this situation? Might be the reason for her reaction. Just a thought. Those poor children. To suffer that at the hand of a parent.`
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ChattyKathy
Free,
No because her little girl had told me when her father had said "time to go to bed" and I saw her little body stiffen up as he walked past her that "daddy tickles me and I don't like it". It was within days of that I watched her baby brother and spoke up to the mother. I should have done it when the little girl said what she did but I kept wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt because I had known him for years and never in my wildest imaginations would have thought he would do something like that to his children.
Good point though, very good point.
Abi,
Thank you!
(now I must be away again as much as I'd rather stay here with y'all)
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J0nny Ling0
Whoa. This thread is deep.
I have an experience to relate. When one of my sons was three years old, a fourteen year old neighbor boy molested him under the house in the crawl space. Fondled his genitals he did. Mt wife caught him in the act and sent the boy home, and made no big deal over it with my son. When I came home from a long day of sheetrocking, I was told about what happened. I was furious and ashamed and ....ed off that I'd not been able to protect my son and I had murder in my heart. The boy was actually out in the street kicking a soccer ball around. I went out and called him over to the fence and he came, sheepishly. When he got to me, I quickly put both of my hands around his throat and began to strangle him. He turned red and then purple and the veins in his neck were bulging as terror was in his bulging eyes. I wanted to kill him! And, I think I came close, but, in my mind I asked God what He would rather have me do, and, I released the death grip but I still held him by his shirt while I ripped into him verbally. I told him that he was lucky he wasn't dead, and I yelled many things calling him a faggot pedophile piece of s h i t and every other thing in the book. And I am not saying that this was what God told me to do. The only thing I think I did right was to not kill him on the spot. I released the boy and went into the house and allowed my fury and adrenalin to subside. My wife and I decided to not make any more mention of it to our son other than to tell him to never let anyone touch him like that again. We told the neighbor boys parents but did not call the police. The boy, as it turns out had been molested by a Catholic "priest", and this thing went to the top of their church, and the boy underwent intense counseling.
Our opinion, as far as our own son was concened, was that we didn't think that we should have made a big deal of it, but rather to just let it slide from his memory, which it did, and, he has grown up as a normal healthy boy. That's what we chose. We figured that if the authorities and the counselors got involved, that my son would think that he did some terrible thing and that he was some kind of a pervert. And so, we did what we did and it is done. His very young age was the major factor in that decision. The nine year old girl was just too old. But I for one am completely and totally glad that my son has no knowledge of the incident and that it is far far behind him.
Oh but man oh man, I almost killed that boy.
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ChattyKathy
Jonny,
I'm so sorry your family had to suffer that even if not as bad as it could have been.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Abi,
I only brought parts of your post here but I wanted to tell you what I've been thinking of since you PM'd me.
That point about it being survival instinct for the abuser to blame the victim is pretty dang eye opening for me and through my therapy I never heard that or if I did I wasn't ready to hear it.
I did learn that accepting some of the blame did give me some sense of having control in the situation though and do know this to be true but must have lapses into my old groves of thinking.
And no, I would never have allowed the dance to continue as an adult (after the initial rape) had I not felt I deserved and was apparently just meant to serve in that capacity since it had always been with me (well since a little thing, so it seemed like always).
Part of being used and abused in a sexual way is clouded with personal desires and that one is probably too bold to have just said but I wanted to add it for consideration of others that might be sorting thru things in their own lives. But no doubt had I not been introduced to sex at not much older than a toddler I would have a different world in this area of my life.
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Abigail
No not too much. Because we are going to get here eventually, aren't we? It is the part few ever discuss publicly, but at some point, it does need to be discussed, it does need to be acknowledged. I cannot say for a certainty what you mean by "personal desires", but I can speak on this from my own experience and some observations.
Young teenaged girls, as they develop a womanly body and discover they are sexually attractive, learn that there is power in their sexuality. Horny teenaged boys would do just about anything to get a piece, sadly, so would far too many adult men. They begin to experiment with that power, not understanding the full effect of it. Some wind up in very very bad situations as a result, others are luckier. Eventually most figure out that such power is not to be abused - that there are serious consequences to abusing such power, not just for the male, but probably even more so for the girl. Some girls are lucky enough to have mothers who will openly and honestly discuss this power with them, will set boundaries for them and teach them how to set boundaries for themselves.
But for a girl who has been sexually abused - especially when that sexual abuse took place over a long period of time, reining in such power is very difficult, because we feel as if it is the only power we have. We view ourselves not as well rounded people but as a sexual being, a sexual object. And in the end, doesn't it feel better to be in a position to say "yes", than to be taken by force? If we have already been taught our only option is to agree or be forced, then the only option - the only way to take back some control, is to say yes. And how much more control do we have, if we pick first? If we chose the man before one can choose us?
And then there are the feelings of guilt and shame that are intermingled with our natural desire to have sex. Feelings that were instilled in us as young children, in part for some - because they were to young to understand what was going on - because they felt pleasure from the experience and are ashamed of that pleasure. So guilt and shame ultimately become tangled with sexual desire. How does one then learn to feel sexual desire without feeling guilty and ashamed? Without feeling slutty?
Our bodies were designed to feel pleasure from sexual stimulation - there is no shame in that, it is something that was also beyond our control.
So yeah, our natural desire for sex gets all tangled together with feelings regarding power, control, guilt, and shame. Heavy duty stuff - not easily unravelled.
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markomalley
Anothen,
If you're still looking, you're in my prayers.
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J0nny Ling0
And so, I am happy to report that my son is okay, and very heterosexual and dosn't seem to show any signs of mental abuse that would normallly come with such a situation.....Thank God Almighty....
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ChattyKathy
I've read this three times and left and came back. Yeah heavy duty stuff. I can tell you at this particular moment in time the pain of having been me is about as overpoweringly painful as it ever has been Abi and even though I hate this moment in time I am also encouraged by the intensity of it. I need to back away a few more minutes please. I just didn't want you to wonder the impact it had on me. This man coming here has certainly made an imprint on me. One that if I am honest will be life giving rather than life sucking.
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Abigail
Its okay. Reply, don't reply. I'll keep the dialogue going as long as you want, and I'll drop it when you want.
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ChattyKathy
For some reason God gave me an inner strength to pull myself out of the worse of fires and He still tells me little things just so I won't have to fret about them when I least expect it. Like this morning I decided to run to McDonalds as a treat for their "healthy" breakfast :wacko: and since I had gone to church last night I wasn't going this morning and just thought it sounded good. I went to pull out of the parking lot and I had this feeling to look in my bag and sure enough they hadn't put my complete order in there. I never check that stuff cause even though I may want the food I just don't reckon it be important enough to do. I know some scoff at that "wee small voice" thing but there would be no reason for me to suddenly stop and check my bag. It made my heart smile to think that God cared enough for me to let me know there was food missing.
When those things happen or someone approaches me and tells me what something I did means to them which includes posters here openly and privately it makes me feel I'm not just used merchandise.
I love me more now than I ever have before but that gets tackled at times and I do regret I can't keep that a reality inside me 100% of the time and am working on it.
If I had the perfect setting to be able to act out the things I think would be best for me it would be easier to accomplish all this but I have to work with handicaps. And I know we all have our personal handicaps in varying degrees.
When I told my mother all the things my life has seen when I was down there this past Christmas it was nearly too much for her to take in. That is part of why I need to be there now. She needs to see I am okay and I will be okay regardless.
I have no idea if I said anything at all here Abi, I'm just typing and will hurry and post it before I think about it too much.
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Abigail
Thanks, Kathy. I think this conversation we've been having has been a good thing. :)
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ChattyKathy
You have offered such wisdom and concern for me in private for years now and I felt this one needed to be out in the open because I know I'm not unique and there are others that can learn as well.
(((you)))
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Psalm 71 one
This thread has been hard for me to read through--and a learning time, too.Abi and Kathy, your dialogues back and forth are helping someone else-- me.
Kathy, reading your posts all the way through--geesh, you and I could be bookends!
I've gone through the same emotions as you! Wanting to forgive, wanting to try to accept, thinking it would help me to understand the reasons behind my Dad's self-justification. (He "only fondled me"--I want to barf)
But coming to the realizations that I haven't really set my boundaries firmly enough. When i was raped, I was afraid to fight back, because i didn't want to hurt him. How sick is that? (I was also afraid of the gun he'd set down on the dashboard.) I also willingly took the blame my corps roommate informed me that i was guilty of.
I've gone through some wild ranges of emotion on this thread. Feeling the "need" to forgive, fully accept this person as a valid part of this board. And then rage--at him and everybody else like him. And total discust at him.
I wish Oen hadn't left on account of disagreements about this person.
I do believe God forgives. And we are supposed to forgive, also--especially those who harmed us, or it will eat us alive. But also be able to set firm boundaries--I hadn't realized til this thread that I don't really know how to do that.
Satori, your post about missing an opportunity--I'm not sure that would work with someone like him--I agree with everyone here who has stated he'd never really show his hand. Having him openly post about his rationalizations, I dunno, I don't think it would educate us--for me, it just stirred up a lot of bad memories. I also don't think we ran him off. He left because he didn't get the reaction he wanted.
I don't think this is the right place for his confession--not when so many here have been victimes of this type of abuse.
I don't think I am making much sense..
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ChattyKathy
Yes you made good sense.
And my heart goes out to you for things you have had to endure and carry in your heart.
Being abused and raped is like that flu that goes away completely then returns in 10 days when you thought you were rid of it.
I'm still figuring out those boundaries myself.
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excathedra
i could be wrong, but i took it that satori was referring to he missed an opportunity in his life
never mind, i just went back and read
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GrouchoMarxJr
I find the subject matter of this thread to be very disturbing...at first I thought I would simply not read anymore...and thus avoid having to think about any of this...
...but I went ahead and read all the different posts anyway...
The entire matter of sexually assaulting children is beyond sickening...the various responses are a testamony to how much pain people have gone through...and still go through because of this.
I have no words of advice or comfort for anyone...I am at a loss in understanding this...I have never walked in any of your shoes...but my heart is overwhelmed by the intensity of the pain, the anger, the frustrations that people feel and live with.
There seems to be so much that lies just beneath the surface in people's lives...I walk away from this thread with a heavy heart and a renewed understanding of how important it is to protect the children...
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