VPW was the real deal

[coolchef]

veepee was the real thing

the real sham!

[1 john 3:1]

Excie:

"A few times I have disagreed with some of the things you have said but I never thought to write the words shut up Remember our old line of be slow to speak quick to think and slow to anger (sic) or something to the such

Have to agree here Excie, you owe an apology.

[dmiller]

mc quade

leave a lot of this up to god

and

shut up ;)

@ Apr 5 2007, 01:15 PM) *

Excie:

"A few times I have disagreed with some of the things you have said but I never thought to write the words shut up Remember our old line of be slow to speak quick to think and slow to anger (sic) or something to the such

Have to agree here Excie, you owe an apology.

Apology? Excie winked.

Edited April 8, 2007 by dmiller

[mstar1]

I havent read through this entire thread

but doesnt it seem strange to anyone else at all that Wierwille is being compared to King David ?

Wierwille was just one of hundreds of thousands (millions maybe) of ministers priests and rabbis that is around at any point in time. He was a little charismatic but nothing special, he wasnt even all that good ( fired from his denomination and plagiarised his books and classes) and certainly not honorable at what he did do---and David (David?!?)is the first thing out of the hat to compare him to?

You cant really be serious are you?

wierwille?

He was second rate in his own lifetime in spite of all his scamming and built a small corporation. He wasnt anything even closely (within a few trillion billion lightyears) approaching David no matter how imaginative or VPidolatrous you get

Why not compare him to the high school teachers we read about that have sex with their students, they too must've taught "thousands' of students, At least then you would have a realistic comparison

But cmon King David?

Get Real

Maybe this should be in The Just Plain Silly Forum

[Jeaniam]

i find this tiresome sorry

it could be because i'm thinking of your other post which i responded to, jean

And I responded to your response, Tag, you're it.

[Weout1200]

lonewolf, you have SEROIUS issues.

[johniam]

quote: Having possesion of the ephod simply meant that David had exercised his authority to do so. It did not make him a priest.

I never said he was a priest. What authority did David have at that time? He was a fugitive Saul wanted dead. My point was that he was OK with God and that if God could give direct info to him, then he was definitely a spiritual guy. David got more print than anybody in the OT except possibly Moses and Abraham. That is significant, IMO. As for the thread, comparing VP to David is valid if David was the real deal.

[Abigail]

As for the thread, comparing VP to David is valid if David was the real deal.

And doesn't that sum it up right there.

[WordWolf]

Indeed it does. Frankly, it's worth re-reading a few times until the meaning of that sentence

sinks in....

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

The reason VPW is constantly compared to David is not to show how great VPW was. The reason is because few people in the scriptures can be shown to be such a screw up as David. Because of him, many thousands of people died, many thousands of innocent people. Fewer people had more dirty laundry than David and yet he remains such a hero of the scriptures. Why is that?

Here's a guy who puts a hit out on another believer.

Here's a guy who uses his "position" to sleep with a married woman and then uses his political power to cover it up.

Thanks to this guy, a whole generation of priests are slaughtered and eventually the kingdom was torn apart.

Yet despite all of this, time and time again, God spared his wrath on Israel saying, "For the sake of David my servant". Obviously God must have had a "soft spot" for David. A soft spot, after all of that destruction David is responsible for? Why?

Obviously, God must look at more than just the sin or lack of it in judging a man. VPW is comapred to David because of all the screw ups in his life. Yet God loved David, and God loved VPW too.

There were definitley times when VPW was walking with God. And anyone who walks with God for any duration and understands the scriptures to any degree is convicted of their sin. That's one of the purposes of scripture, to convict us of sin so that we will run from it.

The things VPW did were sin, and he knew it. He struggled with his flesh and felt the condemnation just like anyone who tries to live for God. If VPW didn't care about the scriptures and didn't care about adultery, why would he have wanted a research paper done on adultery? If anything, that's the subject he would have tried to keep his clergy from ever researching.

So again, VPW is not comapred to David to somehow put VPW on par with David. Rather it is to show what a screw up you can be and how sinful you can be and still do great things for God in life.........thank God for that.

Just some thoughts.

Lone Wolf

Edited April 8, 2007 by Lone Wolf McQuade

[Abigail]

The reason VPW is constantly compared to David is not to show how great VPW was. The reason is because few people in the scriptures can be shown to be such a screw up as David. Because of him, many thousands of people died, many thousands of innocent people. Fewer people had more dirty laundry than David and yet he remains such a hero of the scriptures. Why is that?

Because WE make him a hero of the scriptures. Because we gloss over or ignore entirely what David did. Because in Sunday school we were taught David was a hero and slew Goliath and as adults we cannot reconcile the hero David with the man he eventually became. Because we continue to desire to follow man, to have a man teach us - instead of following God, allowing God to teach us. So we worship the patriarchs, we worship the apostles and we ignore the wrongs that were done. Not unlike those who would continue to ignore the wrongs VPW did.

Oh - and the part about for David's sake? God promised David, when he was still young and a hero, that a decendent of David would always sit on the throne of Israel. So, for David's sake - for the sake of the promise made to David, God tolerated much. But eventually, even He could not continue to tolerate and so eventually there was no longer an heir of David to sit on his throne. The Christians believe Jesus was eventually that heir in God's promise to David. The Jews believe that the messiah who has yet to come, will be a decendant of David. I do not know what the Muslim's believe, but it would be interesting to find out.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Abigail

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

Abigail, you said...

Because we gloss over or ignore entirely what David did.

We do? I think everybody here knows what David did.

So when God judges David, do you think he'll get to enter into the kingdom or do you think he'll be tossed into the flames? It's a good thing you aren't God, David wouldn't stand a chance.

Lone Wolf

[rascal]

Lonely, I think that you make an awull lot of assumpyions about vpw....his thoughts his heart his struggles.

Did you know him personally? Did you spend a lot of time with him in private? Your perception that he struggled...is in direct contrast to the accounts of the people who spent time with him on a daily basis.

As far as your assumptions concerning about God`s love for vpw...

Does he hold the same love for the pharacees? the saducees? koresche? Jim Jones? Or any other criminal through out history who hurt people in God`s name???I mean what do you REALLY know of his motives and heart??? Maybe the scriptures he taught were nothing more than a weapon or tool to sate the lusts of his flesh.

The scriptures warned up of false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing...I have yet to see any evidence that he is NOT in this catagory.

Edited April 8, 2007 by rascal

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

lonewolf, you have SEROIUS issues.

I'll keep that in mind.

[Abigail]

Abigail, you said...

We do? I think everybody here knows what David did.

So when God judges David, do you think he'll get to enter into the kingdom or do you think he'll be tossed into the flames? It's a good thing you aren't God, David wouldn't stand a chance.

Lone Wolf

Apparently not, as several expressed surprise. As for how God judges David, I am sure God will judge David with justice tempered with mercy.

But this isn't about eternal life, this isn't about enteral judgement. This is about allowing people to express and work through the pain the endured as the result of a man. Do you think if you deny their pain, if you tell call them liars, seducers, etc. Do you think if you tell them the man that hurt them also did good, you are helping them? Or are you only preserving your own possibly idolatrous (sp) view of the man?

this is about whether or not VPW was the "real deal" - which I don't think has really even been specifically defined. Was he a prophet? I'd say, hell no. Was he a teacher? Yeah, he taught. Was what he taught, taught out of love? out of concern?

I can't speak with any certainty as to what his motives were in the begining. I can only speak to the result of his ministry - that I am knowledgeable about. I think the few who suffered little were very fortuanate indeed. Sadly, there were many many more who suffered greatly.

[GarthP2000]

Lone Wolf McQuade pontificates thusly,

It's a good thing you aren't God, David wouldn't stand a chance.

Yeah, well I'll tell you what. I know if I were to accept any kind of god, I'd want him/her/it to be like Abigail a LOT more than VP Wierwille. ... a helluva lot more!

Give it a rest, dude. Your kraut idol is dead and rotting in his grave, ... as is his theology.

Edited April 8, 2007 by GarthP2000

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

Give it a rest, dude. Your kraut idol is dead and rotting in his grave, ... as is his theology.

Wow, I didn't know we were free to sling racial slurs here at the cafe. The only idol I see around here is peoples hatred for the man.

Lone Wolf

Edited April 8, 2007 by Lone Wolf McQuade

[skyrider]

VPW was the real deal........?????

In Mrs. W's book, Born Again To Serve, she writes of vp's struggles, doubts, uncertainty, pleading for answers, ready to quit..........UNTIL vpw goes to Rev. B.G. Leonard's class, "Gifts of the Spirit" in March of 1953. According to Mrs. Wierwille, her husband was THRILLED (her description) with this new learning.

In fact, vpw and mrs. and don, and two carloads of people (basically vpw's "congregation") went to Calgary, Alberta for Rev. B.G. Leonard's next class in June/July of 1953. Since vpw was considered a grad, he was not included in the class picture of new students.

Rushing home after Rev Leonard's class.....vpw contacted relatives and friends to be a part of these teachings for a class scheduled for October 1953. Following mrs. wierwille's account in her book, vp took Rev. Leonard's class and taught it as his own -- no charts, no syllabus, no handouts. Interesting that "The Way" was incorporated in 1953 and vpw quickly started copyrighting "his material" (something that Rev. Leonard had not done). Also, the early name of the class, "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" was distanced from Leonard's ministry by tweaking some things and changing the name to "Power for Abundant Living." Those Ohio students that sat in Leonard's class in Canada were considered GRADS WHEN THEY SAT THROUGH VP'S OCTOBER CLASS.

Months later, Rev. Leonard found out about wierwille stealing Leonard's class and work.......and thereafter, copyrighted his work and prefaced his books with a plagairism notice.

In looking closely at Rev. Leonard's work and style..........vpw stole Leonard's class, his examples, his class set-up style, his documenting of classes, his class picture, his Canadian Christian Press with American Christian Press, and more.

Mrs. Wierwille's book also details how Dr. E.E. Higgins introduced vpw to Dr. Bullinger's books and research. According to Mrs. Wierwille's historical writing, vpw acquired and consumed every book and bit of research by Dr. Bullinger in searching for truth.....much of which appears in the 1968 filming of pfal.

Was vpw the real deal.........?????

Hardly.

Edited April 8, 2007 by skyrider

[Bolshevik]

The reason VPW is constantly compared to David is not to show how great VPW was. The reason is because few people in the scriptures can be shown to be such a screw up as David. Because of him, many thousands of people died, many thousands of innocent people. Fewer people had more dirty laundry than David and yet he remains such a hero of the scriptures. Why is that?

Here's a guy who puts a hit out on another believer.

Here's a guy who uses his "position" to sleep with a married woman and then uses his political power to cover it up.

Thanks to this guy, a whole generation of priests are slaughtered and eventually the kingdom was torn apart.

Yet despite all of this, time and time again, God spared his wrath on Israel saying, "For the sake of David my servant". Obviously God must have had a "soft spot" for David. A soft spot, after all of that destruction David is responsible for? Why?

Obviously, God must look at more than just the sin or lack of it in judging a man. VPW is comapred to David because of all the screw ups in his life. Yet God loved David, and God loved VPW too.

There were definitley times when VPW was walking with God. And anyone who walks with God for any duration and understands the scriptures to any degree is convicted of their sin. That's one of the purposes of scripture, to convict us of sin so that we will run from it.

The things VPW did were sin, and he knew it. He struggled with his flesh and felt the condemnation just like anyone who tries to live for God. If VPW didn't care about the scriptures and didn't care about adultery, why would he have wanted a research paper done on adultery? If anything, that's the subject he would have tried to keep his clergy from ever researching.

So again, VPW is not comapred to David to somehow put VPW on par with David. Rather it is to show what a screw up you can be and how sinful you can be and still do great things for God in life.........thank God for that.

Just some thoughts.

Lone Wolf

God did not want a King. If God had his way, David would not have been in that position.

vpw should have never been in his position. not have had that power. The whole concept of "MOGFOG" is evil.

Comparing the men proves nothing. These positions of authority were not God's primary will.

[waysider]

I'm not the world's greatest researcher.

Well,OK, I'n not even a researcher---period.

But I have still not been able to find an O.T. account where"God said David was a man after his own heart" as quoted by VP in the PFAL class. I have seen the account that was part of a sermon given by Paul that refers to that but still nothing in the O.T. So here we have Paul making the statement in a specific context. Then we have VP using that statement in yet another context. But still, no point of origin in the O.T. which is the period of time in which David lived.

How many of us remenber the blip in the PFAL class where VP strays from the point at hand and talks about how the flowers were placed on the desk because Mrs. W. thought it would be a nice touch? I, like most people, thought he was extending credit for a good idea. Little did I know that years later it would be posted here by someone who worked behind the scenes at the filming, that these comments were really a backhanded burst of sarcasm aimed at Mrs. W., whom he had just lambasted off camera for suggesting it.

After VP passed, Mrs. W. was heard to utter"He was a mean man." Who would know better than she?

All this is posted here at GSC for anyone who has the genuine desire to find out what kind of man VP was and if he was the "real deal".

[HCW]

Lonely, I think that you make an awull lot of assumpyions about vpw....his thoughts his heart his struggles.

Did you know him personally? Did you spend a lot of time with him in private? Your perception that he struggled...is in direct contrast to the accounts of the people who spent time with him on a daily basis.

As far as your assumptions concerning about God`s love for vpw...

Does he hold the same love for the pharacees? the saducees? koresche? Jim Jones? Or any other criminal through out history who hurt people in God`s name???I mean what do you REALLY know of his motives and heart??? Maybe the scriptures he taught were nothing more than a weapon or tool to sate the lusts of his flesh.

The scriptures warned up of false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing...I have yet to see any evidence that he is NOT in this catagory.

I knew him, spent time w/ him, got to know his family, baby sat his grand kids, worked w/ him, had a reasonably prominent position in "his ministry," had his trust & respect & made decisions that effected "the whole ministry." I'm certainly not the ultimate authority on VPW, but I did know him & he knew me and liked me, so much so that he personally paid the final tuition amount that I needed to graduate from TWC.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a false profit, etc. I also won't put him in a spiritual category as King David of the Bible. What I would say of him is this:

Power corrupts.

And. As it says in Galatians, every man "is drawn away of his own lusts, enticed..."

I just can't see VP as doing his daily thing in the ministry w/ the intent to steal Bible research, bag hot babes & be a real foot while he just didn't give a damn about anything but garnering as much $$$, the worship and the sexual favors of his followers.

What I can see him doing is giving in to the ever so present sexual temptations that are an integral part of leadership in ministry. I then see him as allowing his ego to more than influence more than a few of his decisions on a regular, daily basis.

My own experiences help me come to the conclusion that VPW could have become "the real deal," spiritually. People calling him the MOG for our generation (which basically came from LCM who pushed that opinion widely) seemd to go to his head.

BUT. People who knew VP all his life said he was a hothead, a show-off, a rebel in the NK community with a huge ego. He felt he couild do as he pleased, and did it. One could call his life:

"When keepin' it real (on the Bilble research tip) goes wrong."

[GarthP2000]

I just can't see VP as doing his daily thing in the ministry w/ the intent to steal Bible research, bag hot babes & be a real foot while he just didn't give a damn about anything but garnering as much $$$, the worship and the sexual favors of his followers.

and

People who knew VP all his life said he was a hothead, a show-off, a rebel in the NK community with a huge ego. He felt he couild do as he pleased, and did it.

contradict each other in so many ways. And especially since the 2nd phrase undermines the claim that VPW "didn't start out that way" as regards his selfish & abusive behavior when he started his ministry.

Far more often than not, whatever good people got out of TWI was not because of VPW, but in *spite* of him. (Real deal my a**!)

And McQuade, the term 'kraut' is not a racial slur, but a nationalistic slur, negatively referring to VPW's Germanic heritage. Particularly of Germanic individuals who were sympathetic to Adolph Hitler and his Nazism. And VPW was shown to have said sympathies.

Which shows more of the reason behind all this so-called 'hate' that you seem to see on this board.

[bfh]

Waysider:

I think I Samuel 13:14 might fit the bill re. David.

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

HCW, you said...

I just can't see VP as doing his daily thing in the ministry w/ the intent to steal Bible research, bag hot babes & be a real foot while he just didn't give a damn about anything but garnering as much $$$, the worship and the sexual favors of his followers.

What I can see him doing is giving in to the ever so present sexual temptations that are an integral part of leadership in ministry. I then see him as allowing his ego to more than influence more than a few of his decisions on a regular, daily basis.

My own experiences help me come to the conclusion that VPW could have become "the real deal," spiritually.

I would agree with your perspective 100%.

Lone Wolf

[alfakat]

T

The things VPW did were sin, and he knew it. He struggled with his flesh and felt the condemnation just like anyone who tries to live for God. If VPW didn't care about the scriptures and didn't care about adultery, why would he have wanted a research paper done on adultery? If anything, that's the subject he would have tried to keep his clergy from ever researching.

Lone Wolf

Where the hell-o do you get that kraap??? John S.'s adultery paper had nuttin to do w/ vic....total red herring.

IF vic wanted to really deal w/ his sin, he could have. HE NEVER DID, period. His freaking epitaph be DAMNED. LOne Wolf, you do NOT know of what you speak, that is OBVIOUS.....