VPW was the real deal

[WordWolf]

Congratulations!

By skipping most of the thread, you were able to find something to correct!

1 Kings 15:5

For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life-- except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

=============

So,

the entire concept of Israel having ANY king at ALL was against God's expressed will,

and Israel insisted on it over God's clear warnings.

They wanted to imitate the other nations and didn't care that they were defying God in the process.

So, minimizing damage, God gives them the least-objectionable choices,

at the times they're needed-

King Saul and King David.

Despite God's best efforts to keep them from harm while still respecting their rights

to make their own choices-and accept the consequences-

Israel is served poorly by having kings. As God had warned them.

They were so sure a king could "go before them and fight their battles",

but both Saul and David sat back, gave the orders, and sent other men to die instead.

(Whoops....)

David sinned in ONE insident, mainly.

That was the Uriah/Bath-sheba incident.

He takes another man's wife, AND has an innocent man killed.

This is ONE death and ONE ruined marriage.

And for this, David's child dies, and the nation of Israel suffers under his rule.

And God never lets this drop- not even when Jesus' family line is covered in

Matthew 1, where Uriah's mentioned out of the blue.

Looks like God takes sexual sins- and the viewing of His people as DISPOSABLE-

VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY.

Looks like the God of the Old Testament casts a very dim eye towards leaders

who commit even a SINGLE sin where they use undue influence to take the

wife of another. (And an unmarried woman would probably be a WORSE crime...)

How does HE view causing His people to sin sexually,

and perverting the office of a priest?

Ask Hophni and Phineas, Eli's sons.

Ask Eli- for not stopping them, he suffered a loss bad enough to kill him.

(Which it did.)

[waysider]

lone wolf

Thought you said in post #139 that David was NOT the spiritual leader.

What did I miss?

And yeah, God gave the inspiration, but the "hard copy" came to us from fallible human beings. Remember session #2? That's part of the problem with the way TWI conditioned our thinking. We were supposed to hold onto everything they ever taught us and never even take the time to consider that maybe, just maybe, someone elses viewpoint might be just as valid as our own. There were some good lessons I learned in TWI. I won't deny that. But their approach to academic exploration and logical reasoning was deplorable at best. When a person refuses to at least consider the merits of another persons' opinion and, instead, does verbal gymnastics to try to justify there own thinking, it seems to imply an unwillingness to give a serious ear to what the other has to say and suggests that it can't possibly have any merit.

Was VPW the real deal?

Well, he certainly "dealt" us some powerful logic and reasoning lessons in session #7 that had some "real" long lasting effects.

Sidenote: the word "real" is not derived from the same Greek word as "good".

[Danny]

Lonely

If you would just read a little you might understand a little.

I know what that verse says.

If you would just read some of that old testement you might be enlightened.

David did sin more than that. He counted the people and the result of that

was a big old famine. Because he sinned.

At the end of the gospels it says something to the effect that if you would

record every thing that Jesus did it would take all the books in the world.

And the same with Davids life he took bunches of wives and did a lot more

than is recorded. The books only give some of his life. Their must be something wrong with that

verse because it did not show he sinned at all.

If you would read and ask God to open your eyes you might be a changed man.

Than verse does not show that he sinned at all.

I guess he didn't need for JC to come he worked it all out.

Only one without sin.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Danny

[Abigail]

Abigail, you said...

I'm not sure where you are coming from with all of this about David. Your understanding of David being a military leader to Israel and nothing more is "way" off base.

You said David didn't teach:

Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. (Psalm 51:13)

David wrote this after Nathan the prophet came confronted him about Bathsheba. It is a prayer for forgiveness, a bargain with God. The essence is, 'God if you will forgive me, I will teach transgressors Your ways.' But please, document for me where David actually kept this promise?

Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. (Psalm 34:11)

Interesting how the Tanakh has an entirely different translation for this verse. Again for context, this Psalm was written by David when he was faking madness in front of Abimelech. The Tanakh translates this verse as, "Lions have been reduced to starvation, but those who turn to the Lord shall not lack any good". Again, going back to context, David ws faking insanity while praising God. Throughout the O.T. history, you will see various men using the God of Abraham as a threat - an "Our God is bigger than your God" thing.

You said David didn't prophesy: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Ps. 22:1).

How is this prophecy? Because some translations of the NT say these were also Jesus' words? Perhaps they were, perhaps they were not. Doesn't make them prophesy. David spoke these words in anguish when he felt he had been abandonded by God. Jesus was very well educated in the Torah, the Jewish writings. It would not necessarily be unusual for him to quote them while he too was suffering. That doesn't equate with prophecy. If you quote scripture, does that mean the person who wrote the scripture KNEW someday you would quote it? Or are you simply repeating something you read?

My tongue cleaveth to my jaws...they pierced my hands and my feet. (Ps. 22:15,16).

They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. (Ps. 22:18).

Again, the Tanakh renders this differently. I am assuming your main point is the piercing of hands and feet, in the first quote, as an alleged prophecy of what Jesus is to endure. However, in the Tanakh, it is that all my bones are disjointed. But regardless, it still doesn't equate with prophecy. There are numerous times in the bible where similar incidents occur to different people.

For example, Lot offering his daughters to the mob. A similar story is repeated in Judges 19 with a Levite traveler who offers his concubine to a crowd. Likewise, there are numerous examples of younger brothers usurping the birthright of their older brothers. It is completely and more likely, that two people experienced similar horrors, for very different reasons. Particularly because God never refers to David as anything but a King, God does not refer to David as a teacher, a prophet, etc.

They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. (Ps. 69:21).

Again, see above and keep in mind, David endured many persecutions, first by Saul, then by his 3rd born son. You think Jesus would have been ignorant of these words? Do you think the writers of the Gospels were?

By the "Way", all of the above is revelation directly from God, remember? David sounds a little more spiritual than you are apparently willing to give him credit for.

You see it as so, I do not. Use some logic and reasoning. Take Deuteronomy for instance, which according to tradition was written by Moses. How could Moses have written of his own death? There are numerous contradictions throughout the OT, because it was written by different people who were focusing on different things and/or had different agendas. Likewise, there are numerous writings never included in the Bible at all. Men chose what scrolls went in and what scrolls were left out. Portions were written after years and years of oral tradition. The writings were copied and retranslated numerous times throughout the ages. So no, I don't believe what we have today was revealed directly by God.

"He didn't live his life according to the Word"...hmmm, that's not what God had to say about him.

1 Kings 15:5

For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life-- except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

So, are you saying it was okay with God that David sat silent while his oldest son raped his only daughter? Or is it possible the historian was simply making a point about King Jeroboam and how evil he was. Did the historian need to reference every single example of David's transgressions to make his point that Jeroboam was a far worse King than David? You may find it interesting to note, it is not David but King Josiah (who came many generations later) who is credited thus, "And like unto him was there no king before him that turned to the Lord with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him. "

Note the wording there - do those words sound familiar? Again, where do you think Jesus would have learned such words? And again, you will note, although David may have (at least for a time) been a 'man of God', it is only Josiah who truly turned to the Lord with all his heart.

Sheesh, for someone who receives such sterling remarks from God, you're sure ready to drag him outside the city gates and stone him to death. You're so consumed with pointing out what an unspiritual man David was because of the "case of Uriah the Hittite", that you refuse to acknowledge all the good David did. And you do the same thing to VPW. No wonder VPW gets no praise from you. You won't even acknowledge that someone is spiritual when God clearly states that he was. David was a spiritual man, and he was the leader of Israel, therefore he was a spiritual leader. He wasn't the only one, but he was certainly one of them.

You must have reading comprehension difficultes. I have several times acknowledged the good David did, specifically in reference to being the ONLY king who was ever able to unite all 12 tribes. What I won't do is, put him on a pedestal and ignore the bad he did also. I won't whitewash the bad, simply because there was also good. David, and his sons after him (with rare exception) repeatedly failed to follow God - eventually, David's line lost the kingdom altogether as a result.

You assume Davis was a spiritual leader because he was king of Israel. The bible does not say it was so. The entire concept of a "spiritual leaders" is a Christian one. The Hebrews never accepted knew of such a concept.

According to you, David was unspiritual, VPW was unspiritual, but of course, I'm sure you consider yourself spiritual, right?

Lone Wolf

Perhaps you need to define "spiritual". I do not think of myself in those terms. I don't think of PEOPLE in those terms. I think some are more knowledgeable than others. I think some are more compassionate than others. etc. But I do not seek a guru.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Abigail

[Danny]

Lonely as far as the rape thing and David

it's in there and David was suppose to kill him.

i guess we just call that a mistake right.

We wouldn't call it a sin.

Sure VP was without sin it was just rape.

[Danny]

II Samuel 13

[Jeaniam]

I didn`t know that he did that. Sure adds a new perspective to my opinion of this man.

And, yet AFTER all of that (not because of but after) he was referred to as a man after God's own heart.

[cman]

VPW should have died in prison for his crimes.

He not only raped once or one person.

But many.

But he surrounded himself with a protection.

Of which people were involved.

Even after his death and the truth comes out.

Still there remains the protection from some.

Slap the blind with the truth, still they can't see.

Tell it as loving and gracious as possible and still they can not see.

They refuse to not worship this man.

For what reason they do, is not godliness.

Edited April 7, 2007 by cman

[Bolshevik]

So. . .

This thread says that David and VPW are alike in that

1. Both loved God.

2. Both had great natural abilities

3. Both got put in positions where their own human weakness could hurt people for generations

4. God has/will forgive both

[cman]

strike out #1 for vpw

[Bolshevik]

So. . .

This thread says that David and VPW are alike in that

1. Both loved God at some point in their lives.

2. Both had great natural abilities

3. Both got put in positions where their own human weakness could hurt people for generations

4. God has/will forgive both

Would not most people succoumb to temtations if put in their positions? (especially after years and years)

[waysider]

Geeze----The words in my concordance keep getting smaller with each passing year.

Would someone be so kind as to help me find that scripture that says David was referred to as a man after Gods' own heart? I'm also interested in who made the statement, when it was made and the context in which it was stated.

[Abigail]

And, yet AFTER all of that (not because of but after) he was referred to as a man after God's own heart.

Context Jean - there was a time when he was a man after God's own heart. Then he turned away from God and the result was horrendous.

[Danny]

I Chronicles 21:1-7 Show how David Was not a one time affair.

David was a man and was flawed just like ever other human.

He sinned just like everyone else. Why all the peace offerings

at the alter. Maybe all those sins had something to do with it.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Danny

[Bolshevik]

Nobody (save J.C.) in the bible was perfect or near it. This only magnifies God's Grace and Mercy. God worked with whomever He could and whatever time they chose. (Some needed more goading than others).

There's a record in Jude I think, talks about The Devil and Micheal the archangel I believe, fighting over the dead body of Moses.

Moses was a great man for God. But his body left a temptation for idol worship.

At twi HQ, there is a statue of vpw. A building and road in his name. His gravesite is marked with a fountain.

While working there, my wife told me for morning fellowships in her department, they didn't gather around the Bible, but "Born Again to Serve." (After my blood boiled and steam came out my ears, I told her to stop going to fellowship.)

HQ is declared the heart of twi, if it falls twi falls, (and therefore God's Word in this day and time.) vpw's works (and LCMs) are considered revelation. Disagreeing with this will get you booted. Quoting vpw gives your arguments or teachings some authority at twi, more so than the Bible.

Many from the spinoffs still sneak on to grounds at strange hours to go stand at the Fountain of Living Water. They are not that different than the standing Way Corps.

Mr Lone Wolf,

What are you doing? Why are trying to protect the legacy of vpw? If he was God's man, wouldn't he want to be forgotten for the sake of God's people?

[FullCircle]

When Saul was being kicked out of office as King Samuel told Saul in I Sameul 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue, the Lord hath sought someone after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him......

So when Saul refused to repent for his sins and disobedience, at the time when Samuel annointed David in the presence of Jesse his father, after his father brought out one son after another thinking surely this is the one to be king and Samuel kept rejecting one son after another and asked if there were anymore, at the time when David was considered to be the kid brother and not as important as his bigger older brothers and when David just kept the flocks and ran supplies to his brothers who were on the front line of battle with the Philistines...that is when Samuel said that God sought him a man after his own heart. This is also when David was without any sin, as in adultery and murder, long before he sat in the throne and before he had to flee for his life for years wandering in caves and the wilderness. That is when this statement was made.

This is also stated in ACTS 13:22 Then he removed him and raised up david as their king; of him he testified, I have found David, son of Jesse, a man after myown heart; he will carry out my every wish.

That is Paul preaching in the synagogue using David as an analogy about how Jesus came from the lineage of David and how God picks whom he will. And no, that is not a justifcation saying God picked VP but rather how Paul was using the lineage of the royal household to show how Jesus could be the Messiah, even if it went against public opinion of who they thought the Messiah should be, much like how Jesse thought his bigger and older sons should be king.

Also note that Paul is teaching something that 'was written' that so far none of us could find. I wonder how much of what he was saying was oral tradition as well.

So the context is that this comment was made when Saul was removed from being king and long before David came into any real power.

Also, I had a thought about the statement of being after my own heart. Instead of God meaning that David was just like him, an impossibility, could it not mean that at that particular time in David's life when Samuel said it, it meant that David was a seeker of the things of God. Therefore, at that time in David's life, David sought after God's heart as opposed to being like minded with God which elevates him greatly, much more than any human should be.

So it was before ALL of David's sins, not after this was said. AS already pointed out, David suffered the consequences of his sins even though he repented, his son dying, the kingdom being split, his son sleeping with David's concubines and the very fact that God would NOT allow David to build the Temple since David was a man of blood.

Edited April 7, 2007 by FullCircle

[FullCircle]

I mean I thought only Jesus and God were one, as in I and the Father are one. Jesus was without sin, he could say that. For David to be a man after God's heart in the way we understand it, it makes him and God as one. That would issue in a whole bunch of other conflicting biblical doctrines like flesh, conditional spirit, sin how can someone be one with God without having been redeemed?? I mean Moses was only called the friend of God and he didn't do have the things or even one of the things David did. And still for striking a rock, he was refused entry to the promised land.

VP the real thing? hehe, I think he was smarter than I realized, he sure knew how to elevate scripture about David that is still being used to excuse his sins some 22 years after his death, that legacy of 'insurance scripture' that was taught in PFAL sure lingers on and on and on like the ever ready rabbit beating his drum. Biblical idolatry with a twist.

Dayum.

Edited April 7, 2007 by FullCircle

[waysider]

Thank you, FC, for your response to the questions I asked in my post.

VeePeePee also made this statement in the piffle class, though he implied that it was in spite of specific incidents (that have been cited here) and the fact that David had been weighed in the balance and found lacking.(Notice how the examples are out of chronological order?)

One has to wonder if he wasn't crafting a personal alibi to cover what his intuition told him might come back to bite him in the arse.

For the record: I don't harbour any anger or hatred for the man. I just want to come to a better understanding of how this sort of deception unfolds so I don't get fooled again and can maybe prevent others from getting duped as well.

[cman]

for the women and girls

there will be justice

[excathedra]

where death is thrown to hell and destroyed

awwww i really loved that

thank you, c

[Jeaniam]

Back to David being a spiritual guy or not, in 1 Sam. 30 David is still basically a fugitive from Saul and he had been with Achish a Phillistine and told that the lords of the Phillistines favored him not. So he and his men came back to Ziklag and found the city burned and their wives stolen. In v. 7 he requests the Ephod to inquire of God. This was a successful thing; but wasn't the Ephod worn by the high priest? Why did David even HAVE the thing? Not bad for a guy who was public enemy #1 at the time.

This is John. We forgot to switch AGAIN. Mea Culpa. Our bad.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Jeaniam

[excathedra]

i find this tiresome sorry

it could be because i'm thinking of your other post which i responded to, jean

[Jeaniam]

Context Jean - there was a time when he was a man after God's own heart. Then he turned away from God and the result was horrendous.

He did not turn away for any great length of time. In 1 Kings 15:3 it refers to David as a man whose "heart was perfect with the Lord his God", and that was after his death. I will concede that the results of his disobedience with Bathsheba were horrendous.

[cman]

when was vp ever a man after God's own heart

please cite the time

i suggest it was before 1916

[waysider]

The ephod was one of the garments worn by the priest. It symbolized a connection to God. When Saul and David felt that they needed a connection to God, they would tell the priest to bring them the ephod. That's one of the perks that comes with rank.(being able to give orders) Having possesion of the ephod simply meant that David had exercised his authority to do so. It did not make him a priest.

BTW-----The topic at hand is not "Was David the real deal?"(Please refer to title of thread for further insight)