I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances.
I'm betting you don't know nearly as much as you think you do. If your sole source of research is PFAL, you have a long ways to go.
Well there ya go. My whole family got born again in PFAL. So what about all across the world? Thousands were born again under VPW's ministry. And that's exactly my point. That's what I mean by VPW being the "real deal".
Okay, so your whole family "got born again" in PFAL; a rough estimate of my experience is that 90% already were "born again" when they came in contact with TWI. Which of our experiences should be taken as representative?
Jesus Christ said apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) With Wierwille's success in outreach, it is hard for me to believe the Lord was not working in him.
What success? There are individual churches, even here in Nebraska, who have more members than whole regions of TWI had in its heyday. And the outreach success that he did have was mre the result of people like Donnie Fugit, Steve Heefner and Jim Doop. The latter two at least were having great success before they ever heard of Wierwille or PFAL.
Before PFAL, a lot of the scholarly work he "stole" was mostly discussed in the intellectual circles, in the ivory towers of learning. PFAL brought an entire package of understanding down to the "common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole.
many of us came from churches where this was true, certainly, but to think that Wierwille was all that unique is wrong.
I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances.
Again, it depends on the church, but Wierwille sure wanted us to thaink that it was the case.
Regardless which way you lean in your perspective on all of those topics, the fact that you can even talk about them intelligently is proof of the education you were exposed to in TWI. PFAL exposed us to a much more scholastic pursuit of the scriptures. That was VPW's goal wasn't it, to teach us how to work the Word?
Wierwille taught us a pseudo-scholarly approach. His methods were sloppy, his definitions were contrived, and despite his protestations to the contrary, his conclusions were pre-decided.
although wordwolf interjected , i still havent heard where Lone Wolf, precise researcher that he is ,came up with the 100,000 Born Again number, Like most things in the TWI arsenal of truth it is either overblown or not true at all.
i have no doubt that some people learned how to do what The Way calls "speaking in tongues" , whether anyone was actually regenerated or born anew in TWI is questionable, no matter how many doctrines and books they came to memorize, how many classes they attended, people stayed pretty much who they were except with a new spiel and something else to keep them occupied on weeknights.
The lazy stayed lazy, the hard working kept being hard working, the honest were still honest, the dishonest still dishonest, and the criminal still criminal. and their lives followed a natural arc that didnt change all that much because of some misperceived divine intervention other than some tossed their dollars to build VP a nice corporation.
Some gave up drugs,or alcohol, bought a new car or got 'mraculously' healed from a cold or something and credited God but it all most likely would have happened anyway.
I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances.
I'll agree with Abigail on this one, although I have met many churchgoers that far exceed any wayites in biblical insights, the primary focus of most churches isnt to produce walking lexicons, but unlike The Way, people that walk the walk
I`ll tell you what, as far as the churches...most that I have attended no matter WHAT their doctrine seemed to understand the greatest law...which is love...
All of that knowledge aquired in twi was a tinkling cymble...what the hell good did it do anybody without agape?
Give me the church that understands what Jesus said were the greatest 2 commandments over puffed up knowledge ANY day.
You see how spiritual alla that bible study and scriptural knowledge of obscure orientalisms made old vp ...NOT!!.....The guy never understood the love of God...
I know I am a few posts slow but I heard that 105,000 had paid for pfal before 1983. not all had ever taken the class but money and green cards were accounted for that many.
I know I am a few posts slow but I heard that 105,000 had paid for pfal before 1983. not all had ever taken the class but money and green cards were accounted for that many.
I might believe that was an accurate number.
When it comes to vpw, the almighty dollar was the great arbiter of spirituality.
I know I am a few posts slow but I heard that 105,000 had paid for pfal before 1983. not all had ever taken the class but money and green cards were accounted for that many.
And where are they all now, twenty three years later?
I imagine some would not feel comfortable even admitting they took the class.
far fewer than one out of ten I worked with ended up actually taking the class.
I would venture to say that the vast majority came, saw, and refused to follow vic over a cliff like the rest of us lemmings, at least lemmings at the time.
The "real deal" were the people that actually built up that heap of an organization. Not vic.
I actually had a few people independently tell me in essence the same thing. "well, we think you are nice, but the rest of the bunch, too pushy. I can't stand them. They are worse than used car salesmen.."
Well there ya go. My whole family got born again in PFAL. So what about all across the world? Thousands were born again under VPW's ministry. And that's exactly my point. That's what I mean by VPW being the "real deal".
If you knew half what you THOUGHT you knew,
you'd know he personally was not out there "selling"- "witnessing", "preaching"-
in most locales, EVER.
What he did was go and convince a handful of REAL Christians who were having TREMENDOUS
outreach to do his marketing FOR him rather than only for God like they were doing.
Your family didn't first hear from vpw- they heard from people who heard from other people,
and if you trace back far enough, the majority of THEM can all be traced back to the handful
of REAL Christians, and the double-handful that THEY taught. That's why there's a few places
where people can trace big numbers coming from- they're where THESE people were.
So, many (thousands???? you're extrapolating from the experience of TWO posters into
THOUSANDS???? Most of us reported the OPPOSITE...)
were born again under THEIR ministries, which vpw slapped his name on.
vpw was GREAT at adding his name to the work of other Christians.
Jesus Christ said apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) With Wierwille's success in outreach, it is hard for me to believe the Lord was not working in him.
The Lord was working in THEM. THEY were successes in outreach.)
Before PFAL, a lot of the scholarly work he "stole" was mostly discussed in the intellectual circles, in the ivory towers of learning.
Your lack of knowing what you THINK you know is showing again here.
Jack Stiles gave copies of his book and booklets on the holy spirit for FREE to all
sorts of Christians. He wasn't in an ivory tower-he travelled all over.
And BG Leonard's name had gotten around a lot of Christian circles among ministers.
His intention was to teach MINISTERS so those ministers could serve entire COMMUNITIES
in their own churches. Maximum impact, minimum money and name recognition.
Leonard had an impact far exceeding his name recognition- and he's still
discussed to this day, his materials are still sought, and not just by ex-twiers.
Ever see how vpw ever heard of them?
Stiles he met at a big Christian convention, where Stiles was one of the guys.
Leonard he read about-and not in some ivory tower vpw never visited.
And Leonard was all the way in Canada at the time....
PFAL brought an entire package of understanding down to the "common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole.
Your ignorance of what you THINK you know is showing again.
The first "pfal" class- titled "receiving the holy spirit today" by vpw-
was Leonard's class in every way, both in what it included, in what it excluded,
and in examples even down to the imaginary names,
and the only change was the name on the class.
That is, vpw sat in Leonard's class,
then taught Leonard's class, changing its name, and telling the students it was a vpw class.
Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class brought an entire package of understanding down to the
"common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole.
That's why we all stuck around, not because we were all brain washed by subliminal messages.
The strength of LEONARD's work, and the work of the groovy Christians, and
Stiles' book (which vpw cut-and-pasted) were what impressed people.
The subliminal messages are evident in how you can't stop with the vpw commercials even
when everyone except you knows the origins of the materials.
I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances.
You might try the internet- there's HUNDREDS you can find with a little dedication.
I've found LOTS you've never interacted with, and I wasn't looking that hard.
And many of them are strong in areas that ex-twi are remarkably weak in-
Scriptural history, differences between texts, and history of the Church of the first
3 centuries- which are VERY useful but require more WORK than vpw was willing
to put into any of those subjects.
You don't even need to leave your computer to find "average church-goers"
who can equal or surpass typical Advanced Class grads.
Regardless which way you lean in your perspective on all of those topics, the fact that you can even talk about them intelligently is proof of the education you were exposed to in TWI.
To a degree, but that's only AVERAGE in many Christian circles,
and the education was a compilation of Stiles, Bullinger, and Leonard.
I'd have much fewer objections if we'd been told that from the beginning.
Most of us would. The DECEPTION by a supposed CHRISTIAN is telling.
PFAL exposed us to a much more scholastic pursuit of the scriptures.
Make up your mind- you're objecting to scholastic circles-made up of scholastics,
or you're praising a scholastic approach- which scholastics used?
Mind you, if you looked around, you'd find plenty of Christians who have put in STUDY.
You haven't found them, but we have, so we're dubious you looked very hard....
That was VPW's goal wasn't it, to teach us how to work the Word?
Lone Wolf McQuade
Since you asked....
He had a number of goals, demonstrated by a number of activities.
When he went to the groovy Christians, he was looking to find a sales force.
(He was also looking to find some Christians who believed in free love,
as evidenced by his inquiries into ORGIES among them, and his explanation
of how orgies are permitted by God.)
When he was enrolling way corps, he was looking for people who would follow
orders without question (he disbanded at least one entire corps, only allowing
them to re-join after declaring their loyalty to him IN WRITING),
while seeking to make money off the deal.
(They were charged tuition, given tasks which cost nothing, and the financial
outlay ON THEM was nearly nonexistent-
they lived in tiny cells, they ate cheap, disgusting food,
and they performed lots and lots of manual labour for free while
paying tuition.)
The only formal education they had-other than taking classes they didn't need
more than a year to take FROM twi-
was DALE CARNEGIE SALES TRAINING.
Why was the only expense laid out for them SALES TRAINING?
Because the most important thing about them was their use as a sales force.
And some of the time, his goal was to get young, impressionable women to
Well there ya go. My whole family got born again in PFAL. So what about all across the world? Thousands were born again under VPW's ministry. And that's exactly my point. That's what I mean by VPW being the "real deal".
Jesus Christ said apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) With Wierwille's success in outreach, it is hard for me to believe the Lord was not working in him.
Before PFAL, a lot of the scholarly work he "stole" was mostly discussed in the intellectual circles, in the ivory towers of learning. PFAL brought an entire package of understanding down to the "common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole. That's why we all stuck around, not because we were all brain washed by subliminal messages.
I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances.
Regardless which way you lean in your perspective on all of those topics, the fact that you can even talk about them intelligently is proof of the education you were exposed to in TWI. PFAL exposed us to a much more scholastic pursuit of the scriptures. That was VPW's goal wasn't it, to teach us how to work the Word?
Lone Wolf McQuade
Horse-poop. TWI does not allow individuals to review VPWs research and verify. You listen to a sunday service and go over the notes. You read the way mag. Research in twi means you go to a scripture index of twi's publications and review that info.
I am a scientist in training. I'm taught to verify, prove to myself, accept nothing as absolute, show how I came to conclusions, show all uncertainty in my data, expect others to verify my work . . .
The "research" done at twi is ludicrous. Advanced Class grads know nothing. There given a bunch of points to "believe", and reasons to accept them. Then they talk about that. Idiocy. An education my foot.
As someone born and raised in twi, I crave what other church goers have. Faith. A relationship with the Big Guy. Power in prayer. Compassion for others. And things I've yet to learn I lack.
Mr. Lone Wolf, Hitler was successful in propaganda too. And if you're not convinced: Get Convinced!
The Bible says that David had spirit upon him from the day that Samuel anointed him for the rest of his life. Certainly the men who followed him when he was running from Saul regarded him as a spiritual leader.
My point is that some of the people that post claim that no amount of knowledge can erase hurting even one of God's children. By that logic, the knowledge gained in the epistles is outweighed by the hurt Paul did to many of God's children. I am not necessarily addressing you personally, but there are some posters who are out of control.
This is jeaniam. I forgot to switch again. My bad.
I wanted to revisit this again. I am still waiting to see where the Bible says anything about men viewing David as a spiritual leader and not a king. Samuel and Nathan, yes. David was a military leader - not a self-proclaimed prophet or a God proclaimed prophet.
Using David to justify VPW doesn't hold up when you examine it with critical thinking.
In the last few years, I've gotten into ancient history, with a focus on the Crusades era.
Did you know that "God wills it" was the war cry and slogan for the Knight Templar, used to justify every act of barbarism, cruelty, and murder they committed?
Now adays, when I remember someone saying "God wills it", I roll my eyes and groan.
Before PFAL, a lot of the scholarly work he "stole" was mostly discussed in the intellectual circles, in the ivory towers of learning. PFAL brought an entire package of understanding down to the "common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole. That's why we all stuck around, not because we were all brain washed by subliminal messages.
I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances.
Are you saying there's some conspiracy in Christiandom to hide information from the rest of us?
Pretty much all of my friends who grew up in twi ask this same question: "How come, when a new person comes to fellowship and asks a simple question, none of the Advanced Class grads can answer it? Why must they start pulling out syllabi and collaterals and spend hours piecing some answer that starts with "Well, I remember once Doctor said yada yada yada . . ." Why do questions we ask need to get sent up the Way Tree? (Only to never be answered)
Advanced Class grads are not educated. Their heads are just stuffed with info to regurgitate. They are not taught to think or love. What are they a grad of anyway? You just sit there and listen! There no test or oral exam.
Why was LCM and VPW the expert on political affairs, history, social issues? What good was that "education" if nobody could put it to use?
Funny how this "education" only "works" if one is standing with twi. Leave the Household, and God leaves you, and His Word stops working.
Christadelphians believe very similar to twi regarding the trinity and the dead alive now. They've been around at least 150 years.
Nothing began or ended with Victor Paul Wierwille.
Concordances, yes, TWI began publishing there own version of a concordance. Aramaic or something. (I got a copy somewhere at the bottom of some closet.) Talk about taking their word for it. They Way Corps have a version of The Bible according to VPW. How many wayfers are salivating over that still?
I wanted to revisit this again. I am still waiting to see where the Bible says anything about men viewing David as a spiritual leader and not a king. Samuel and Nathan, yes. David was a military leader - not a self-proclaimed prophet or a God proclaimed prophet.
Abigail,
You're right. David was not their spiritual leader...per se. But then again neither was Samuel or Nathan...per se. While the people may not have looked to David as their spiritual leader, they didn't exactly see him as "just the king".
When you see the record of Saul, you see God's heart for what the king of Israel was supposed to be like. God gave Saul the spirit and it changed him so dynamically that it says Saul had a new heart and he prophecied. The people were astonished and said "Is Saul also among the prophets?". (1 Sam. 10:11)
No one was Israel's sole spiritual leader, but the king was certainly to be in the same "league" as the prophets. Even Samuel was not allowed into the holy of holies. Only the high priest could do that. So was the high priest the spiritual leader of Israel? No. Many people were Israel's spiritual leaders and the king was certainly one of them and the people of Israel recognized him as such, as well as Samuel, Nathan, the high priest, the Levites, etc.
If I had to say who was Israel's sole spritual leader, I would have to say it was the Law itself because everybody from David on down was to know it and obey it. The Law was the schoolmaster, not any one person. (Gal. 3:24) As a matter of fact, the NIV reads...
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
quote: I wanted to revisit this again. I am still waiting to see where the Bible says anything about men viewing David as a spiritual leader and not a king. Samuel and Nathan, yes. David was a military leader - not a self-proclaimed prophet or a God proclaimed prophet.
Knew it was in here; just took time to find it.
1 Chronicles 8:14 - and he appointed according to the order of David his father, the courses of the priests to their service, and the Levites to their charges, to praise and minister before the priests, as the duty of every day required; the porters also by their courses at every gate: for so had David the man of God commanded.
There aren't that many men who are actually called a man of God in scripture. There's also scripture that says God told David how to prevail in combat right in the thick of the action. So put all that together and David had to be recognized as a spiritual man. He wore many hats too.
I agree that there was some kind of checks and balances system so that no ONE person was the only spiritual authority.
Calling vpw the *real deal* is an insult to genuine Christians everywhere.
Fruit alway tells....drunkeness, adultery lasciviousness, hate, guess what mcquade?? That among many others that vpw displayed on a distressingly regular basis....is the fruit of a man who HAS no inheritance in the Kingdom of God according to scriptures.
The really funny part...he was able get us to completely DISCOUNT the significance of examining fruit in order to identify someones spiritual healthiness or lack there off....sheer genius!
The Law was a stop-gap measure intended to give some semblense of order until a "spiritual leader" arrived.
The Law kept a sense of organization in the physical realm because the people were not yet ready to accept a "spiritual leader".
The Law was a supervisor of the physical, not a leader of the spiritual.
The education in TWI:
This was one of my biggest disappointments not one of my consolations.
I went to Fellowlaborers with the enticement of learning The Book Of Acts in both an academic way as well as a practical application. The promise was that I would have something to take back to my hometown that would help people understand how to live a day by day and moment by moment experience that would rival the first century church in intensity.
Instead, I leaned how to sprout mung beans, make my own mayonaise, and keep my sanity in the face of madness.
Yeah, I got an education for sure. Little of it had any academic merit related to The Bible.
Johniam---------Would you be so kind as to demonstrate those research skills you learned in TWI by explaining the essence of that passage in I Chron 8:14 that refers to David as a "Man of God".?
1 Chronicles 8:14 - and he appointed according to the order of David his father, the courses of the priests to their service, and the Levites to their charges, to praise and minister before the priests, as the duty of every day required; the porters also by their courses at every gate: for so had David the man of God commanded.
I am sure this wasn't taught in TWI, so you probably will dismiss it, but I will say it for anyone else who might be interested.
In the Torah, Chronicles is not considered to be part of the Prophets (which includes Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, etc.). Chronicles is in that category known as "the rest of the writings." In the Torah, Chronicles is the last book, it does not sit next to Kings. The Hebrew scholars believe Chronicles may have been written by the same person who authored Deuterotomy. A studied read will show significant differences in Deuteronomy and Leviticus - as they will between Kings and Chronicles.
The author of both Deuteronomy and Chronicles was very very concerned with the laws, the building of the temple, and you will note he or she left out many, many, many of the sordid details regarding David's reign as king. Many of the Hebrew scholars refer to him or her as a "revisionist". The author(s) of Judges, Samuel and Kings was a historian. They were less interested in the laws and rituals and more interested in documenting the facts as they occured.
The verse you quoted is actually in II Chronicals 8, BTW, John. The context (remember context???) is the building of the temple by Solomon. It was Solomon who set up the "priests to their service, and the Levites to their charges," as Solomon was instructed by his father, David, to do it.
David WAS a man of God, I never questioned that. But, he didn't teach, preach, prophesy, etc. He wasn't a levite. He was a King. He united the two kingdoms, he led men in battle, he ruled a nation in the political realm. And because he didn't follow the laws, because he "took" Bethsheba and had her husband killed, because he allowed his eldest son to rape his only daughter, the kingdom ended up in civil war and the 12 tribes were never again united as one nation.
So, you can hold David up as your shining example against VPW all you want. It really is more fitting than you realized. David wasn't a teacher of god's word, he wasn't a prophet - he didn't hold forth the word and he didn't live his life according to the word. Neither did VPW.
As a result of David's failings an entire nation suffered. As a result of VPW's failings, many, many people also suffered.
David WAS a man of God, I never questioned that. But, he didn't teach, preach, prophesy, etc.
I'm not sure where you are coming from with all of this about David. Your understanding of David being a military leader to Israel and nothing more is "way" off base.
You said David didn't teach: Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. (Psalm 51:13)
Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. (Psalm 34:11)
You said David didn't prophesy: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Ps. 22:1).
My tongue cleaveth to my jaws...they pierced my hands and my feet. (Ps. 22:15,16).
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. (Ps. 22:18).
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. (Ps. 69:21).
By the "Way", all of the above is revelation directly from God, remember? David sounds a little more spiritual than you are apparently willing to give him credit for.
David wasn't a teacher of god's word, he wasn't a prophet - he didn't hold forth the word and he didn't live his life according to the word.
"David wasn't a teacher of God's Word"...wrong.
"David wasn't a prophet"...no, but he did prophesy.
"He didn't hold forth the Word"...ever read the book of Psalms?? Sounds like holding forth the Word to me.
"He didn't live his life according to the Word"...hmmm, that's not what God had to say about him.
1 Kings 15:5
For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life-- except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
Sheesh, for someone who receives such sterling remarks from God, you're sure ready to drag him outside the city gates and stone him to death. You're so consumed with pointing out what an unspiritual man David was because of the "case of Uriah the Hittite", that you refuse to acknowledge all the good David did. And you do the same thing to VPW. No wonder VPW gets no praise from you. You won't even acknowledge that someone is spiritual when God clearly states that he was. David was a spiritual man, and he was the leader of Israel, therefore he was a spiritual leader. He wasn't the only one, but he was certainly one of them.
According to you, David was unspiritual, VPW was unspiritual, but of course, I'm sure you consider yourself spiritual, right?
The author of both Deuteronomy and Chronicles was very very concerned with the laws, the building of the temple, and you will note he or she left out many, many, many of the sordid details regarding David's reign as king.
This statement alone leads me to believe that you don't even believe the scriptures are from God. The author who was very very concerned about the laws and the building of the temple was God.
What was said about David's life and what was left out was God's choice, not some fleeting human authors' who was trying to make David look better than he really was.
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Abigail
I'm betting you don't know nearly as much as you think you do. If your sole source of research is PFAL, you have a long ways to go.
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Oakspear
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mstar1
although wordwolf interjected , i still havent heard where Lone Wolf, precise researcher that he is ,came up with the 100,000 Born Again number, Like most things in the TWI arsenal of truth it is either overblown or not true at all.
i have no doubt that some people learned how to do what The Way calls "speaking in tongues" , whether anyone was actually regenerated or born anew in TWI is questionable, no matter how many doctrines and books they came to memorize, how many classes they attended, people stayed pretty much who they were except with a new spiel and something else to keep them occupied on weeknights.
The lazy stayed lazy, the hard working kept being hard working, the honest were still honest, the dishonest still dishonest, and the criminal still criminal. and their lives followed a natural arc that didnt change all that much because of some misperceived divine intervention other than some tossed their dollars to build VP a nice corporation.
Some gave up drugs,or alcohol, bought a new car or got 'mraculously' healed from a cold or something and credited God but it all most likely would have happened anyway.
I'll agree with Abigail on this one, although I have met many churchgoers that far exceed any wayites in biblical insights, the primary focus of most churches isnt to produce walking lexicons, but unlike The Way, people that walk the walk
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rascal
I`ll tell you what, as far as the churches...most that I have attended no matter WHAT their doctrine seemed to understand the greatest law...which is love...
All of that knowledge aquired in twi was a tinkling cymble...what the hell good did it do anybody without agape?
Give me the church that understands what Jesus said were the greatest 2 commandments over puffed up knowledge ANY day.
You see how spiritual alla that bible study and scriptural knowledge of obscure orientalisms made old vp ...NOT!!.....The guy never understood the love of God...
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Out There
I know I am a few posts slow but I heard that 105,000 had paid for pfal before 1983. not all had ever taken the class but money and green cards were accounted for that many.
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WordWolf
I might believe that was an accurate number.
When it comes to vpw, the almighty dollar was the great arbiter of spirituality.
His best line on this?
"You can stay as long as your money holds!"
which was his rule for way corps students.
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Ham
And where are they all now, twenty three years later?
I imagine some would not feel comfortable even admitting they took the class.
far fewer than one out of ten I worked with ended up actually taking the class.
I would venture to say that the vast majority came, saw, and refused to follow vic over a cliff like the rest of us lemmings, at least lemmings at the time.
The "real deal" were the people that actually built up that heap of an organization. Not vic.
I actually had a few people independently tell me in essence the same thing. "well, we think you are nice, but the rest of the bunch, too pushy. I can't stand them. They are worse than used car salesmen.."
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WordWolf
If you knew half what you THOUGHT you knew,
you'd know he personally was not out there "selling"- "witnessing", "preaching"-
in most locales, EVER.
What he did was go and convince a handful of REAL Christians who were having TREMENDOUS
outreach to do his marketing FOR him rather than only for God like they were doing.
Your family didn't first hear from vpw- they heard from people who heard from other people,
and if you trace back far enough, the majority of THEM can all be traced back to the handful
of REAL Christians, and the double-handful that THEY taught. That's why there's a few places
where people can trace big numbers coming from- they're where THESE people were.
So, many (thousands???? you're extrapolating from the experience of TWO posters into
THOUSANDS???? Most of us reported the OPPOSITE...)
were born again under THEIR ministries, which vpw slapped his name on.
vpw was GREAT at adding his name to the work of other Christians.
The Lord was working in THEM. THEY were successes in outreach.)
Your lack of knowing what you THINK you know is showing again here.Jack Stiles gave copies of his book and booklets on the holy spirit for FREE to all
sorts of Christians. He wasn't in an ivory tower-he travelled all over.
And BG Leonard's name had gotten around a lot of Christian circles among ministers.
His intention was to teach MINISTERS so those ministers could serve entire COMMUNITIES
in their own churches. Maximum impact, minimum money and name recognition.
Leonard had an impact far exceeding his name recognition- and he's still
discussed to this day, his materials are still sought, and not just by ex-twiers.
Ever see how vpw ever heard of them?
Stiles he met at a big Christian convention, where Stiles was one of the guys.
Leonard he read about-and not in some ivory tower vpw never visited.
And Leonard was all the way in Canada at the time....
Your ignorance of what you THINK you know is showing again.
The first "pfal" class- titled "receiving the holy spirit today" by vpw-
was Leonard's class in every way, both in what it included, in what it excluded,
and in examples even down to the imaginary names,
and the only change was the name on the class.
That is, vpw sat in Leonard's class,
then taught Leonard's class, changing its name, and telling the students it was a vpw class.
Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class brought an entire package of understanding down to the
"common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole.
The strength of LEONARD's work, and the work of the groovy Christians, andStiles' book (which vpw cut-and-pasted) were what impressed people.
The subliminal messages are evident in how you can't stop with the vpw commercials even
when everyone except you knows the origins of the materials.
You might try the internet- there's HUNDREDS you can find with a little dedication.
I've found LOTS you've never interacted with, and I wasn't looking that hard.
And many of them are strong in areas that ex-twi are remarkably weak in-
Scriptural history, differences between texts, and history of the Church of the first
3 centuries- which are VERY useful but require more WORK than vpw was willing
to put into any of those subjects.
You don't even need to leave your computer to find "average church-goers"
who can equal or surpass typical Advanced Class grads.
To a degree, but that's only AVERAGE in many Christian circles,and the education was a compilation of Stiles, Bullinger, and Leonard.
I'd have much fewer objections if we'd been told that from the beginning.
Most of us would. The DECEPTION by a supposed CHRISTIAN is telling.
Make up your mind- you're objecting to scholastic circles-made up of scholastics,
or you're praising a scholastic approach- which scholastics used?
Mind you, if you looked around, you'd find plenty of Christians who have put in STUDY.
You haven't found them, but we have, so we're dubious you looked very hard....
Since you asked....
He had a number of goals, demonstrated by a number of activities.
When he went to the groovy Christians, he was looking to find a sales force.
(He was also looking to find some Christians who believed in free love,
as evidenced by his inquiries into ORGIES among them, and his explanation
of how orgies are permitted by God.)
When he was enrolling way corps, he was looking for people who would follow
orders without question (he disbanded at least one entire corps, only allowing
them to re-join after declaring their loyalty to him IN WRITING),
while seeking to make money off the deal.
(They were charged tuition, given tasks which cost nothing, and the financial
outlay ON THEM was nearly nonexistent-
they lived in tiny cells, they ate cheap, disgusting food,
and they performed lots and lots of manual labour for free while
paying tuition.)
The only formal education they had-other than taking classes they didn't need
more than a year to take FROM twi-
was DALE CARNEGIE SALES TRAINING.
Why was the only expense laid out for them SALES TRAINING?
Because the most important thing about them was their use as a sales force.
And some of the time, his goal was to get young, impressionable women to
submit to sexual overtures.
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Bolshevik
Horse-poop. TWI does not allow individuals to review VPWs research and verify. You listen to a sunday service and go over the notes. You read the way mag. Research in twi means you go to a scripture index of twi's publications and review that info.
I am a scientist in training. I'm taught to verify, prove to myself, accept nothing as absolute, show how I came to conclusions, show all uncertainty in my data, expect others to verify my work . . .
The "research" done at twi is ludicrous. Advanced Class grads know nothing. There given a bunch of points to "believe", and reasons to accept them. Then they talk about that. Idiocy. An education my foot.
As someone born and raised in twi, I crave what other church goers have. Faith. A relationship with the Big Guy. Power in prayer. Compassion for others. And things I've yet to learn I lack.
Mr. Lone Wolf, Hitler was successful in propaganda too. And if you're not convinced: Get Convinced!
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Abigail
I wanted to revisit this again. I am still waiting to see where the Bible says anything about men viewing David as a spiritual leader and not a king. Samuel and Nathan, yes. David was a military leader - not a self-proclaimed prophet or a God proclaimed prophet.
Using David to justify VPW doesn't hold up when you examine it with critical thinking.
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Attack Gypsy
Oh man, do I remember that one.
In the last few years, I've gotten into ancient history, with a focus on the Crusades era.
Did you know that "God wills it" was the war cry and slogan for the Knight Templar, used to justify every act of barbarism, cruelty, and murder they committed?
Now adays, when I remember someone saying "God wills it", I roll my eyes and groan.
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Bolshevik
Are you saying there's some conspiracy in Christiandom to hide information from the rest of us?
Pretty much all of my friends who grew up in twi ask this same question: "How come, when a new person comes to fellowship and asks a simple question, none of the Advanced Class grads can answer it? Why must they start pulling out syllabi and collaterals and spend hours piecing some answer that starts with "Well, I remember once Doctor said yada yada yada . . ." Why do questions we ask need to get sent up the Way Tree? (Only to never be answered)
Advanced Class grads are not educated. Their heads are just stuffed with info to regurgitate. They are not taught to think or love. What are they a grad of anyway? You just sit there and listen! There no test or oral exam.
Why was LCM and VPW the expert on political affairs, history, social issues? What good was that "education" if nobody could put it to use?
Funny how this "education" only "works" if one is standing with twi. Leave the Household, and God leaves you, and His Word stops working.
Christadelphians believe very similar to twi regarding the trinity and the dead alive now. They've been around at least 150 years.
Nothing began or ended with Victor Paul Wierwille.
Concordances, yes, TWI began publishing there own version of a concordance. Aramaic or something. (I got a copy somewhere at the bottom of some closet.) Talk about taking their word for it. They Way Corps have a version of The Bible according to VPW. How many wayfers are salivating over that still?
Where is my education Lone Wolf?
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Abigail,
You're right. David was not their spiritual leader...per se. But then again neither was Samuel or Nathan...per se. While the people may not have looked to David as their spiritual leader, they didn't exactly see him as "just the king".
When you see the record of Saul, you see God's heart for what the king of Israel was supposed to be like. God gave Saul the spirit and it changed him so dynamically that it says Saul had a new heart and he prophecied. The people were astonished and said "Is Saul also among the prophets?". (1 Sam. 10:11)
No one was Israel's sole spiritual leader, but the king was certainly to be in the same "league" as the prophets. Even Samuel was not allowed into the holy of holies. Only the high priest could do that. So was the high priest the spiritual leader of Israel? No. Many people were Israel's spiritual leaders and the king was certainly one of them and the people of Israel recognized him as such, as well as Samuel, Nathan, the high priest, the Levites, etc.
If I had to say who was Israel's sole spritual leader, I would have to say it was the Law itself because everybody from David on down was to know it and obey it. The Law was the schoolmaster, not any one person. (Gal. 3:24) As a matter of fact, the NIV reads...
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
So who was Israel's spiritual leader? The Law.
Lone Wolf
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johniam
quote: I wanted to revisit this again. I am still waiting to see where the Bible says anything about men viewing David as a spiritual leader and not a king. Samuel and Nathan, yes. David was a military leader - not a self-proclaimed prophet or a God proclaimed prophet.
Knew it was in here; just took time to find it.
1 Chronicles 8:14 - and he appointed according to the order of David his father, the courses of the priests to their service, and the Levites to their charges, to praise and minister before the priests, as the duty of every day required; the porters also by their courses at every gate: for so had David the man of God commanded.
There aren't that many men who are actually called a man of God in scripture. There's also scripture that says God told David how to prevail in combat right in the thick of the action. So put all that together and David had to be recognized as a spiritual man. He wore many hats too.
I agree that there was some kind of checks and balances system so that no ONE person was the only spiritual authority.
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rascal
Calling vpw the *real deal* is an insult to genuine Christians everywhere.
Fruit alway tells....drunkeness, adultery lasciviousness, hate, guess what mcquade?? That among many others that vpw displayed on a distressingly regular basis....is the fruit of a man who HAS no inheritance in the Kingdom of God according to scriptures.
The really funny part...he was able get us to completely DISCOUNT the significance of examining fruit in order to identify someones spiritual healthiness or lack there off....sheer genius!
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waysider
The Law was not Israels' "spiritual leader".
The Law was a stop-gap measure intended to give some semblense of order until a "spiritual leader" arrived.
The Law kept a sense of organization in the physical realm because the people were not yet ready to accept a "spiritual leader".
The Law was a supervisor of the physical, not a leader of the spiritual.
The education in TWI:
This was one of my biggest disappointments not one of my consolations.
I went to Fellowlaborers with the enticement of learning The Book Of Acts in both an academic way as well as a practical application. The promise was that I would have something to take back to my hometown that would help people understand how to live a day by day and moment by moment experience that would rival the first century church in intensity.
Instead, I leaned how to sprout mung beans, make my own mayonaise, and keep my sanity in the face of madness.
Yeah, I got an education for sure. Little of it had any academic merit related to The Bible.
Johniam---------Would you be so kind as to demonstrate those research skills you learned in TWI by explaining the essence of that passage in I Chron 8:14 that refers to David as a "Man of God".?
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Abigail
I am sure this wasn't taught in TWI, so you probably will dismiss it, but I will say it for anyone else who might be interested.
In the Torah, Chronicles is not considered to be part of the Prophets (which includes Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, etc.). Chronicles is in that category known as "the rest of the writings." In the Torah, Chronicles is the last book, it does not sit next to Kings. The Hebrew scholars believe Chronicles may have been written by the same person who authored Deuterotomy. A studied read will show significant differences in Deuteronomy and Leviticus - as they will between Kings and Chronicles.
The author of both Deuteronomy and Chronicles was very very concerned with the laws, the building of the temple, and you will note he or she left out many, many, many of the sordid details regarding David's reign as king. Many of the Hebrew scholars refer to him or her as a "revisionist". The author(s) of Judges, Samuel and Kings was a historian. They were less interested in the laws and rituals and more interested in documenting the facts as they occured.
The verse you quoted is actually in II Chronicals 8, BTW, John. The context (remember context???) is the building of the temple by Solomon. It was Solomon who set up the "priests to their service, and the Levites to their charges," as Solomon was instructed by his father, David, to do it.
David WAS a man of God, I never questioned that. But, he didn't teach, preach, prophesy, etc. He wasn't a levite. He was a King. He united the two kingdoms, he led men in battle, he ruled a nation in the political realm. And because he didn't follow the laws, because he "took" Bethsheba and had her husband killed, because he allowed his eldest son to rape his only daughter, the kingdom ended up in civil war and the 12 tribes were never again united as one nation.
So, you can hold David up as your shining example against VPW all you want. It really is more fitting than you realized. David wasn't a teacher of god's word, he wasn't a prophet - he didn't hold forth the word and he didn't live his life according to the word. Neither did VPW.
As a result of David's failings an entire nation suffered. As a result of VPW's failings, many, many people also suffered.
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excathedra
i didn't know that
how COULD he ?
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Abigail
What could he say to his son, after what he himself had done?
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excathedra
but his DAUGHTER
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rascal
I didn`t know that he did that. Sure adds a new perspective to my opinion of this man.
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Bolshevik
Hello, McQuade?
more interested in the sex and power forums than this?
No answers in TWI
Just clarify, if VPW was the real deal, does that make current twi the real deal? If it stopped, when?
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Abigail, you said...
I'm not sure where you are coming from with all of this about David. Your understanding of David being a military leader to Israel and nothing more is "way" off base.You said David didn't teach: Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. (Psalm 51:13)
Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. (Psalm 34:11)
You said David didn't prophesy: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Ps. 22:1).
My tongue cleaveth to my jaws...they pierced my hands and my feet. (Ps. 22:15,16).
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. (Ps. 22:18).
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. (Ps. 69:21).
By the "Way", all of the above is revelation directly from God, remember? David sounds a little more spiritual than you are apparently willing to give him credit for.
"David wasn't a teacher of God's Word"...wrong.
"David wasn't a prophet"...no, but he did prophesy.
"He didn't hold forth the Word"...ever read the book of Psalms?? Sounds like holding forth the Word to me.
"He didn't live his life according to the Word"...hmmm, that's not what God had to say about him.
1 Kings 15:5
For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life-- except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
Sheesh, for someone who receives such sterling remarks from God, you're sure ready to drag him outside the city gates and stone him to death. You're so consumed with pointing out what an unspiritual man David was because of the "case of Uriah the Hittite", that you refuse to acknowledge all the good David did. And you do the same thing to VPW. No wonder VPW gets no praise from you. You won't even acknowledge that someone is spiritual when God clearly states that he was. David was a spiritual man, and he was the leader of Israel, therefore he was a spiritual leader. He wasn't the only one, but he was certainly one of them.
According to you, David was unspiritual, VPW was unspiritual, but of course, I'm sure you consider yourself spiritual, right?
Lone Wolf
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Lone Wolf McQuade
By the Way, Abigail, you said...
This statement alone leads me to believe that you don't even believe the scriptures are from God. The author who was very very concerned about the laws and the building of the temple was God.
What was said about David's life and what was left out was God's choice, not some fleeting human authors' who was trying to make David look better than he really was.
Lone Wolf
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