You have stated in your post #99 that considering statistics relating to Scientology or Islam is of no value because they are, in your words, "false religions". Would you care to expound on what you deem to be a "real" religion? Perhaps you might even expand that to explain why The Way should be defined as a "real" religion.
BTW
This Thread is not about God.
This thread is not about Jesus.
This thread is not about Lucifer.
This thread is not about how God has no hands but our hands
This thread is not about how many lost souls got saved in your fellowship.
This thread is about answering the question: Was VPW "the real deal"?
Since no one has yet to define the term "real deal", perhaps you would care to offer some enlightenment in that respect.
Waysider
(a name that carries a good deal of totally intentional ambiguity)
Don't mind me, I'm busy. But it does occur to me, that maybe the real issue here is not VPW, and what he did or didn't do, etc. Maybe the real question, that maybe we all want the answer to is, (pleeze forgive me for being presumptuous) to be asked is: "Can any good thing come out of VP Wierwille's 'Ministry.'"
Should I start a new topic? :B) Let me know, but it seems that there are many lately, that don't really get to the heart of the matter. I like cutting to the chase. :ph34r:
Hmmm, none of you? Ever? Not in any way? Mighty spiritual you must be.
Whose fault is that?
Why the hell did you stay for 26 years then? I saw plenty saved, right in my own fellowship...oh yeah, lives turned around too...the Word can do that, ya know?
WhatTheHey,
I have read your posts, and I am left with the question..."what the hey?" :wacko:
Mr. Lone Wolf,
I think you may have used others' statements and quoted them as mine.
But the 26 years part was mine. I told you plainly what I saw. You're saying The Word drives people into mental institutions?
I did not come to ministry. I did not ask to be a part of it. It took years (I was dumb enough to ask to leave, the answer was "NO")
and I'm still prying my way fully out. (Family involvment makes it tricky)
You see Mr. Lone Wolf, My parents are not my parents. They are ruled by twi leadership. They cannot love me and I cannot know them. (You should hear the conversations we have) They ask me still. "When's LCM coming back?" even after I tell them "I hate TWI" (or strongly dislike if you're thinking of a "you shouldn't hate" argument.) They hit me too hard too often because twi told them too. Limb coordinators from six states away would call my parents up and tell them how to be parents.
I am still trying to make contact with these martian parents.
WHOSE FAULT IS THAT Mr. McQuade?
Just like a TWI goer, you seem to be replying in black and white.
You gotta be jokin' me, right? So Lucifer was lifted up with pride because God made him? :blink:
Mister-P-Mosh,
You assume Lucifer is the Devil because TWI said it was so. Hebrew scholars would tell you differently. Perhaps a good subject for the doctrinal form sometime.
It was the power of Jesus Christ reaching you, with the words from a man, whom I do not think really ever believed the Bible, or could not have done the things he did -- (repeatedly).
How can anyone think that Wierwille never believed the bible? It's like thinking someone can't believe the bible and also sin. Ridiculous. Happens every day, all the time.
Let's talk about walking by the flesh. A biblical example comes to mind, Solomon, he had about 1,000 wives? Talk about walking in the flesh! Many of these wives were foreign, and you know the drill, God forbade Israel to marry into foreign to avoid idolatry. But Solomon didn't obey and instead built shrines to his wifes idols. And, he personally participated in the worship of these idols. Each of these idols were connected with reprehensible practices! For instance, both of the idols Chemosh and Molech required human sacrifice of children or infants in their worship.
So if one can say Wierwille never really believed because of his sins, you also can say that Solomon didn't, for his sins. Go ahead and try, have fun, and pass the Kool Aid.
No matter how much you disagree with someones opinions it's not right to tell them to shut up, Remember this is supposed to be a forum. I know your 15177+ posts are impressive but if you try to stifle someone elses opinions and ideas you are in the wrong place. A few times I have disagreed with some of the things you have said but I never thought to write the words shut up Remember our old line of be slow to speak quick to think and slow to anger (sic) or something to the such
VPW had a powerful ministry. How do I know? Jesus Christ said you will know them by their fruit. Well the fruit of VPW's efforts was 100,000 people getting born again. 100,000? That's called the mighty hand of the Lord moving to save....regardless of what weaknesses VPW may have had in his life.
The god that needs a man to satiate his earthly lusts with innocent women to energize the man's "ministry" is not worthy of my respect.
"RELIEVE da man of gawd of his tensions, so he can go about doing good.."
I read somewhere about the people of the town hiring prostitutes for the priests so they'd lay off their wives and daughters..
They could make the same claim, the priests that is.. "thousands now saved (given penitence)"
did twi or vpw get anyone born again? leading someone to manifet who already had the spirit doesn't count. It's kidda hard to live in this day and time and not hear how to get born again.
Let's talk about walking by the flesh. A biblical example comes to mind, Solomon, he had about 1,000 wives? Talk about walking in the flesh! Many of these wives were foreign, and you know the drill, God forbade Israel to marry into foreign to avoid idolatry.
In response, cman said...
You have no idea what the bible is talking about oldies. Nor did vpw, he rejected it. Solomon's wives escapes your understanding.
I don't think so. Oldies, I think you understand the scriptures better than this guy. It sounds like the only one who rejects the Bible is him.
Out There, you said to excathedra...
No matter how much you disagree with someones opinions it's not right to tell them to shut up, Remember this is supposed to be a forum. I know your 15177+ posts are impressive but if you try to stifle someone else's opinions and ideas you are in the wrong place.
That's just it Out There, because of his 15,177 posts (maybe we should be in awe!), he thinks somehow his comments carry more weight around here than the rest of us. Sounds like intolerance of ones ideas except his own. Maybe he's auditioning to be the SLOGSFOT....Spiritual Leader Of Grease Spot For Our Time.
No matter how much you disagree with someones opinions it's not right to tell them to shut up, Remember this is supposed to be a forum. I know your 15177+ posts are impressive but if you try to stifle someone elses opinions and ideas you are in the wrong place. A few times I have disagreed with some of the things you have said but I never thought to write the words shut up Remember our old line of be slow to speak quick to think and slow to anger (sic) or something to the such
"If thou shalt but sign upon the card of green, thou shalt find the salvation thou seeketh, harmony in the home ,and a Cadillac with a diamond in the back, sunroof top and gangstah whitewalls."
"In their confusion, the people pondered -------"Is there nothing else we may do?"
I didn't read ALL of this...but................I think some folks got saved there despite it all. Earlier years there was a movement going on -in his time period. Think some folks that got "Jesus" and got saved would probably be dead today. Instead of thinking how he $%&^ up....there is a lot that was a lifeline for some AT THAT TIME PERIOD.
I didn't read ALL of this...but................I think some folks got saved there despite it all. Earlier years there was a movement going on -in his time period. Think some folks that got "Jesus" and got saved would probably be dead today. Instead of thinking how he $%&^ up....there is a lot that was a lifeline for some AT THAT TIME PERIOD.
Soggy
I agree with the essense of your post, especially the phrase"despite it all".
did twi or vpw get anyone born again? leading someone to manifet who already had the spirit doesn't count. It's kidda hard to live in this day and time and not hear how to get born again.
Don't know if you really wanted an answer to this question, but yeah, I did get born again in piffle. Before taking the class I thought all Christians were deluded and the Bible was a joke. Never heard of SIT or any of the other manifestations until I went to fellowship.
Also, I personally know of two other people who were born again as a result of piffle.
yeah, I did get born again in piffle. Before taking the class I thought all Christians were deluded and the Bible was a joke. Never heard of SIT or any of the other manifestations until I went to fellowship.
Also, I personally know of two other people who were born again as a result of piffle.
Well there ya go. My whole family got born again in PFAL. So what about all across the world? Thousands were born again under VPW's ministry. And that's exactly my point. That's what I mean by VPW being the "real deal".
Jesus Christ said apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) With Wierwille's success in outreach, it is hard for me to believe the Lord was not working in him.
Before PFAL, a lot of the scholarly work he "stole" was mostly discussed in the intellectual circles, in the ivory towers of learning. PFAL brought an entire package of understanding down to the "common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole. That's why we all stuck around, not because we were all brain washed by subliminal messages.
I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances.
Regardless which way you lean in your perspective on all of those topics, the fact that you can even talk about them intelligently is proof of the education you were exposed to in TWI. PFAL exposed us to a much more scholastic pursuit of the scriptures. That was VPW's goal wasn't it, to teach us how to work the Word?
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Ham
If indeed karma and reincarnation turn out to be true, it would be very fitting that some among us came back as WOMEN, in "service" of the MOG.
Really.
"servants" of the "greatest bestest", latest, HUCKSTER.
But I wouldn't wish what some people here got on my worst enemy.
Even if the Apostle Paul were proven to do the same kind of evil, after being "converted", I'd spit on his grave too.
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waysider
Dear Mr Lone Wolf McQuaide
You have stated in your post #99 that considering statistics relating to Scientology or Islam is of no value because they are, in your words, "false religions". Would you care to expound on what you deem to be a "real" religion? Perhaps you might even expand that to explain why The Way should be defined as a "real" religion.
BTW
This Thread is not about God.
This thread is not about Jesus.
This thread is not about Lucifer.
This thread is not about how God has no hands but our hands
This thread is not about how many lost souls got saved in your fellowship.
This thread is about answering the question: Was VPW "the real deal"?
Since no one has yet to define the term "real deal", perhaps you would care to offer some enlightenment in that respect.
Waysider
(a name that carries a good deal of totally intentional ambiguity)
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ex10
Don't mind me, I'm busy. But it does occur to me, that maybe the real issue here is not VPW, and what he did or didn't do, etc. Maybe the real question, that maybe we all want the answer to is, (pleeze forgive me for being presumptuous) to be asked is: "Can any good thing come out of VP Wierwille's 'Ministry.'"
Should I start a new topic? :B) Let me know, but it seems that there are many lately, that don't really get to the heart of the matter. I like cutting to the chase. :ph34r:
Peace, love, dove.
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Bolshevik
Mr. Lone Wolf,
I think you may have used others' statements and quoted them as mine.
But the 26 years part was mine. I told you plainly what I saw. You're saying The Word drives people into mental institutions?
I did not come to ministry. I did not ask to be a part of it. It took years (I was dumb enough to ask to leave, the answer was "NO")
and I'm still prying my way fully out. (Family involvment makes it tricky)
You see Mr. Lone Wolf, My parents are not my parents. They are ruled by twi leadership. They cannot love me and I cannot know them. (You should hear the conversations we have) They ask me still. "When's LCM coming back?" even after I tell them "I hate TWI" (or strongly dislike if you're thinking of a "you shouldn't hate" argument.) They hit me too hard too often because twi told them too. Limb coordinators from six states away would call my parents up and tell them how to be parents.
I am still trying to make contact with these martian parents.
WHOSE FAULT IS THAT Mr. McQuade?
Just like a TWI goer, you seem to be replying in black and white.
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Abigail
You assume Lucifer is the Devil because TWI said it was so. Hebrew scholars would tell you differently. Perhaps a good subject for the doctrinal form sometime.
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oldiesman
How can anyone think that Wierwille never believed the bible? It's like thinking someone can't believe the bible and also sin. Ridiculous. Happens every day, all the time.
Let's talk about walking by the flesh. A biblical example comes to mind, Solomon, he had about 1,000 wives? Talk about walking in the flesh! Many of these wives were foreign, and you know the drill, God forbade Israel to marry into foreign to avoid idolatry. But Solomon didn't obey and instead built shrines to his wifes idols. And, he personally participated in the worship of these idols. Each of these idols were connected with reprehensible practices! For instance, both of the idols Chemosh and Molech required human sacrifice of children or infants in their worship.
So if one can say Wierwille never really believed because of his sins, you also can say that Solomon didn't, for his sins. Go ahead and try, have fun, and pass the Kool Aid.
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cman
You have no idea what the bible is talking about oldies.
Nor did vpw, he rejected it.
Solomon's wives escapes your understanding.
vpw worshipped himself.
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cman
As much as you try oldies.
You'll never measure up to the hatred vp had for Christ.
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Bolshevik
God didn't want Isreal to have a King either.
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Out There
Excie:
No matter how much you disagree with someones opinions it's not right to tell them to shut up, Remember this is supposed to be a forum. I know your 15177+ posts are impressive but if you try to stifle someone elses opinions and ideas you are in the wrong place. A few times I have disagreed with some of the things you have said but I never thought to write the words shut up Remember our old line of be slow to speak quick to think and slow to anger (sic) or something to the such
Edited by Out ThereLink to comment
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Ham
The god that needs a man to satiate his earthly lusts with innocent women to energize the man's "ministry" is not worthy of my respect.
"RELIEVE da man of gawd of his tensions, so he can go about doing good.."
I read somewhere about the people of the town hiring prostitutes for the priests so they'd lay off their wives and daughters..
They could make the same claim, the priests that is.. "thousands now saved (given penitence)"
"Real Deal" alright. Right out of the dark ages..
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Bolshevik
did twi or vpw get anyone born again? leading someone to manifet who already had the spirit doesn't count. It's kidda hard to live in this day and time and not hear how to get born again.
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Oldiesman said...
In response, cman said...I don't think so. Oldies, I think you understand the scriptures better than this guy. It sounds like the only one who rejects the Bible is him.
Out There, you said to excathedra...
That's just it Out There, because of his 15,177 posts (maybe we should be in awe!), he thinks somehow his comments carry more weight around here than the rest of us. Sounds like intolerance of ones ideas except his own. Maybe he's auditioning to be the SLOGSFOT....Spiritual Leader Of Grease Spot For Our Time.
Lone Wolf McQuade
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excathedra
i guess you missed my wink
you don't know me
was that "our" old line
ps. i'm embarrassed by all my posts
and i don't want to be a slog
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frank123lol
Vp:Thew word that worked in his ministry helped people no doubt but but but his works were a lot of time
different see The apostle with Robert Duval.
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mstar1
Serious question ----How did you come up with this 100,000 number, was this some special revelation, a voice out of a burning bush or something?
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waysider
"For yea,verily, it did come to pass in the days of flower power, Tower Of Power, and the temptations of Eve that it was thus spoken."---------------
----------------------------------------------------------
"If thou shalt but sign upon the card of green, thou shalt find the salvation thou seeketh, harmony in the home ,and a Cadillac with a diamond in the back, sunroof top and gangstah whitewalls."
"In their confusion, the people pondered -------"Is there nothing else we may do?"
"ABS!", came the answer,---------"ABS MUCH!"
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cman
I appreciate the compliment, but there are a few others.
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Bolshevik
I believe the 100,000 number is supposed to be the number of people in U.S. twi has directly affected.
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WordWolf
To be specific,
it's supposedly the number of people who ever signed up for pfal.
A) I question if there really were 100,000 who ever signed green cards.
B) Not everyone who ever signed the green card showed up for Session I.
When I first took it, one of 7 was a no-show from the beginning.
C) Not everyone who ever showed up for Session 1 showed up for
Session 8 (the Born Again session), or Session 12.
When I first took it, we were down to 3-4 by Session 8,
with 3 grads at Session 12.
(Me, a coordinator's wife, and a different coordinator's teen.)
I've considered the number 100,000 an inflated number for years,
just when using it to measure GRADS.
====
Someone already pointed out that most pfal students were already
born again long before they ever heard of pfal.
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sogwap51
I didn't read ALL of this...but................I think some folks got saved there despite it all. Earlier years there was a movement going on -in his time period. Think some folks that got "Jesus" and got saved would probably be dead today. Instead of thinking how he $%&^ up....there is a lot that was a lifeline for some AT THAT TIME PERIOD.
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waysider
Soggy
I agree with the essense of your post, especially the phrase"despite it all".
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bfh
Don't know if you really wanted an answer to this question, but yeah, I did get born again in piffle. Before taking the class I thought all Christians were deluded and the Bible was a joke. Never heard of SIT or any of the other manifestations until I went to fellowship.
Also, I personally know of two other people who were born again as a result of piffle.
Just my three cents...
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Lone Wolf McQuade
bfh, you said...
Well there ya go. My whole family got born again in PFAL. So what about all across the world? Thousands were born again under VPW's ministry. And that's exactly my point. That's what I mean by VPW being the "real deal".
Jesus Christ said apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) With Wierwille's success in outreach, it is hard for me to believe the Lord was not working in him.
Before PFAL, a lot of the scholarly work he "stole" was mostly discussed in the intellectual circles, in the ivory towers of learning. PFAL brought an entire package of understanding down to the "common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole. That's why we all stuck around, not because we were all brain washed by subliminal messages.
I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances.
Regardless which way you lean in your perspective on all of those topics, the fact that you can even talk about them intelligently is proof of the education you were exposed to in TWI. PFAL exposed us to a much more scholastic pursuit of the scriptures. That was VPW's goal wasn't it, to teach us how to work the Word?
Lone Wolf McQuade
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