ex10, you've hit on a tru-ism. David and Paul, while commonly sited as examples in this context, are not examples. There's a major difference and I think the learning is completely missed if not seen correctly.
Let's say for a second there never was a David or Paul. That they're composites, or just the subjects of "stories", that have a message. What's the message?
There's many, I'm sure. One would be - that a man or woman can change, they can go from one extreme to another. One bad, one good. God can bring a person from one end of the spectrum to another.
In Paul we have a person who's described as no threat to anyone - unless you disagree with him. He goes from hating certain kinds of people to being one of those people and comes to understand that there's more to life and faith than the religious views he'd once held.
David - much richer back-story. We have a great image of David - then we find him completely overwhelmed by lust, to the point he destroys others lives to get what he wants. Time passes. When confronted, he changes. He can't change the damage he's done but he can change the man he's going to be and we're told that's what he did.
Whatever the story we have on VPW, he died in the midst of his own turmoil. Sad for him, and for others. There's no confrontation, no acceptance, no change we know of. The Way continues on, downhill, for many years. What it's all about today I don't know, but we do know that for the decade after he died, it got no better and only worse.
It's a bad comparison. With VPW there's no turnaround, it ends badly.
I have just one word to describe VPW, and why he could not be a true representative for God.
I D O L A T R Y
One cannot serve God AND mammon.
Adultery IS idolatry!
(Mrs.. W. knew this and stated it clearly to my mother when asked the difference between "spiritual adultery" and physical adultery. That's another story though.)
Alcoholism IS idolatry!
Love of money IS idolatry!
Idolatry is anything you look to as your "source" other than the true Source, which is God. This means that when you need sexual conquests to make you feel adequate, important, validated it is idolatry. When you use alcohol to "cope" or find "peace" it is idolatry. When you turn to material things (resources) as your "Source" this is idolatry! (Yes, I have just finished reading a lot of Jeff VanVonderan's work on this subject, and it makes a helluva lot more sense than any Way class ever did.)
So basically, VPW was a very empty man trying to act full. He may have looked "spirit filled" at the time, but the truth is that if he truly had been, he wouldn't have literally been whoring after works of the flesh and idolatry to feel full.
I have read before posting again here, and have watched what happened, especially I noticed how Rascal was being hounded. I am not going to make a big deal of them responding to my post here and now, only because they have the right to respond one last time to what I said to them.
I have to remind myself of what I was like in TWI, and I am not saying anyone here is in TWI but certainly if we think we learned nothing wrong, the attitude still prevails that we had when we thought we were absolutely right. I shudder at the way I treated people who disagreed with me when they came into my WOW home who dared to disagree with VP and the ministry. It takes a long time to unravel that type of thinking and learned behavior from our minds and hearts. It reminds me of a Shakespeare quote from MacBeth that goes something like, "Fair is foul and foul is fair." I did whatever I did to ensure that the 'legacy' of VP and company never was compromised by the 'deceived unbelieving.' Another thing that makes me ill how was that leadership was acute in cutting people apart with words. The bigger the leader, especially as we moved into the 1980's the more he could cut you to pieces with words. It was fairly the biggest sword of TWI, not the word of God but the ability to shred someone verbally and if done in front of an audience, the better. It was a good motivational tool as well. Rip/hound/humilate and basically wear someone down verbally, the rest of the platoon falls into submitted silence. It is my own personal opinion as I have watched, that has been happening here and I thought about stopping posting here because of it. Because I dont' want to be dragged into the mind frame of something I have fought so hard to get rid of and eventually being pushed hard enough I am afraid I would retaliate back. I am not afraid to admit that there are better people here than me in that they have handled such incidents better than I would have by now. Rascal, you're terrific :)
topic change:
I know what happened to me. I know of my 'uncomfortable' experiences with VP. I met him, unfortunately, several times in person. I also got the 'honor' of cleaning his dressing room at a heartbeat festival that they had in the '70's. I also know what happened with me and other ordained clergy and their claims of being taught by VP that is was okay to have other woman, blah blah.
I am truly sorry for what you have gone through and what the other women have experienced. I cannot imagine the horror and terror in their souls and hearts and how they must have suffered. I cannot express my anger and rage at men who would prey upon any young woman, especially those whose self esteem already suffered being abused earlier in life. That makes those men and VP true blue predators. Nothing else fits and no bible verse can justify that. That is sheer evil. Put a three piece suit on it and give it an attache case and a dove pin on the lapel and that is just the outside covering a cesspool of greed and lust and a reprobate mind.
topic change:
VP is the real thing? He never taught a thing about salvation until what, session 7 of the class and then only for a very short time? VP's empahsis in the class was NEVER Jesus Christ. It was all about VP's stolen and newly dressed up doctrines now on parade. It was a class on mock spirituality. It mocked Christianity every chance it got and many Christian virtues that were absent from TWI as well.
Whatever the story we have on VPW, he died in the midst of his own turmoil. Sad for him, and for others. There's no confrontation, no acceptance, no change we know of. The Way continues on, downhill, for many years. What it's all about today I don't know, but we do know that for the decade after he died, it got no better and only worse.
It's a bad comparison. With VPW there's no turnaround, it ends badly.
With VPW.......it ends with a wishing he'd lived differently.
VPW's epitaph: I wish I were the man I know to be.
Ahhh but DAVID was never born again WAS he? So Jean...you are comparing vpw with a man of the flesh? David din`t have spirit to guide him....now THAT I can buy. VPW`s actions certainly would indicate that he was *of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God* That is what galatians says about him anyway.
David had spirit the way it was available in his day and time, conditionally. Nice to see you and the thought police on this thread.
This is Jeaniam, I forgot to switch again. My bad.
I love it when people make references to David, Solomon, etc. to justify VPW as a man of God. First, David was NOT the man of God, spiritual leader of the people, nor was Solomon, though he was considered to be wise - they were Kings not prophets. Samuel was the prophet in David's time. VPW wanted to act like a King who owned all the women in the kingdom and make claims to being a prophet at the same time.
Second, David lived in an entirely different culture from ours. In our culture, having multiple wives and harems is unacceptable. If David had sex with a 13 year old, it would have been acceptable in his time. In our time, I suspect even the VPW defenders would be appalled by such behavior from an adult man. (I am not saying VPW had sex with children - I am simply pointing out cultural differences). Mary gave birth to Jesus when she was what, 13 or 14? So, does that mean you think it is okay for 13 and 14 year old girls to be having babies in our culture and society?
Third, David and his people paid a price for David's sins, starting with David's loss of his first son by Bathsheba and ultimately ending with captivity of the people, though that came a long time later.
Perhaps, the bigger lesson in all of this, as could even be seen by many of the O.T. scriptures, is that we shouldn't follow after man, but after God. Many, many people in the Old Testament paid with their lives for following after man.
The Bible says that David had spirit upon him from the day that Samuel anointed him for the rest of his life. Certainly the men who followed him when he was running from Saul regarded him as a spiritual leader.
My point is that some of the people that post claim that no amount of knowledge can erase hurting even one of God's children. By that logic, the knowledge gained in the epistles is outweighed by the hurt Paul did to many of God's children. I am not necessarily addressing you personally, but there are some posters who are out of control.
This is jeaniam. I forgot to switch again. My bad.
I find it interesting that the instigator who started this thread has not been heard from since the first & only posting. I envision this person sitting back & laughing at the flurry of posts, saying "well, my work here is done!"
I find it interesting that the instigator who started this thread has not been heard from since the first & only posting. I envision this person sitting back & laughing at the flurry of posts, saying "well, my work here is done!"
Baiting people is not cool.
I was beginning to wonder where he had gotten off to as well. It's not nice to open a can of worms and run away.
It is Sunday morning, you bring VPW a shirt he plans to wear. He makes a comment about your breasts. You giggle your 18- year-old giggle cause he is the Man of God. Then he touches them, running his old hands over your young perky statues. He grabs your butt and pulls you close and French kisses you. Then, he pushes your head down to his zipper as it flies open. He tells you, it is your ministry – your gift is your body and he is going to help you learn. He forces you to touch and feel and place your lips. You choke for a moment but he pushes you into him…Your inhibitions are not there as he offered you a 7 up and you feel kinda funny.
And by the way, back off the stalking, the community here will not tolerate it. If you stalk full Circle some of us will stalk you until you stop it.
Welcome to the spot
As far as the "stalking" goes, this is a thread started by someone who wanted to say something good about VPW. Isn't it amazing that within the first few posts, there came Rascal and the thought police to make sure THAT didn't continue.
Full Circle, you hang in there babe. I like your posts. You often come up with some tantelizing tid bit that I can chew on.
As far as the mighty "Doc defenders" I can relate to ya'll and your arguments in favor of ole Vic. Up until a couple of days ago I would have probably joined you or at least remained neutral. But I have seen the light! No really I have. I don't know who posted this quote on another thread but I liked it so much I printed it:
"...I have tired to keep memory alive; I have tried to fight those who would forget. Because if we forget, we are guilty, we are accomplices...I swore never to be silent whenever, wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation...Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Acceptance Speech, December 10, 1986.
I have sworn my life to defending the weak and oppressed, both in my job and personal life and yet when it came to VP and his crimes I had continued to make excuses for his behavior...never again. He has been relegated to the same catagory that I place all sexual predators, scum of the earth.
This decision was not based solely upon the stories that I have heard or even on the personal experiences that I could add to that pot of knowledge. The decision was cemented when I realized that ole Vic never repented, never asked forgiveness, in short...he didn't care about his victims nor even his own "soul" until the very end. Even then his concern was not for their pain or their forgiveness (so far as we have been told by CG). Ole Vic was concerned that his legacy wasn't being carried out as he would have it. This behavior, based upon my experience (which is considerable) comes from a hardened heart. I am beginning to think that ole Vic was a textbook narcisistic sociopath, among other things.
As far as the "stalking" goes, this is a thread started by someone who wanted to say something good about VPW. Isn't it amazing that within the first few posts, there came Rascal and the thought police to make sure THAT didn't continue.
Jean (and John) -- Before this turns into even more of a fiasco,
I hope you don't consider me part of the *Thought Police*.
Maybe I am, in your book, but in this particular thread --
I was merely addressing statements made.
My intention (in posting to LoneWolf) was not so much as to debunk his post,
or try to make sure that any good docvic might've done goes unnoticed,
but rather to address his statements about his claim of
(as he put it about those of us here), ludicrous statements.
For what it is worth -- I lost my respect for Docvic about 20 years ago,
when the POP was hitting the fan, along with other revelations about him.
For what it is worth -- before that I would have peed in the road,
to make a puddle to throw my jacket over,
so he could walk across without getting his shoes wet.
Docvic did many things in his life, LOT'S of which are told about here.
When someone says that one aspect of his (good) life
*negates* the (evil) life, it has to go to the scales, and get weighed.
Why isn't it (logical) to think that his (bad) life might
negate his (good) life that he led???
We'll have to wait to see which way the scales tip, won't we?
A lot has been said here about sin and forgiveness,
(who did, and who didn't -- sometimes with references included!).
If someone doesn't own up to their sin, and repent (change),
are their Godly actions (if they have any) valid?
I dunno, for one. But I have my suspicions.
This is something that none of us know for sure (obviously),
but if (as the saying goes) Actions Speak Louder Than Words is true,
you finish the sentence.
It's a LAW sentence that applies to all -- saint and sinner alike.
The Bible says that David had spirit upon him from the day that Samuel anointed him for the rest of his life. Certainly the men who followed him when he was running from Saul regarded him as a spiritual leader.
My point is that some of the people that post claim that no amount of knowledge can erase hurting even one of God's children. By that logic, the knowledge gained in the epistles is outweighed by the hurt Paul did to many of God's children. I am not necessarily addressing you personally, but there are some posters who are out of control.
This is jeaniam. I forgot to switch again. My bad.
Why "certainly the men who followed him . . . regarded him as a spiritual leader"? I am not sure the Bible says that. I would think the people who followed him thought of him as their king, not their priest or Rabbi. Particularly because David was not a Levite.
In any case, I would say no amount of knowledge erases hurting "God's children." Knowledge puffeth up, yes?
I am not saying VPW was evil incarnate. I am not even saying everything he taught was wrong. But whatever things he taught accurately, whatever good he did, that does not erase the hurt either. The people who were hurt by him never had a chance for true closure, never received an apology, never had an opportunity to see the man be remorseful for the hurt he caused them.
Greasespot is one of the few places they can go, where they can let out that hurt and anger and be comforted and understood by people who understand what they've been through. You may see us as miserable comforters, that is fine and you have a right to your opinion.
Other people come here, who have suffered different hurts by others in TWI, and again, this is the place where they can express their pain and anger and be understood. None of that means their whole life is consumed by hurt and anger, regardless of how it may come across in this one dimensional view we often get of each other here on the forums. Just like your stance in these threads does not represent the entire person you are. I know how your husband comes across in these forums sometimes. I have also conversed with him on non-two topics, allowing me to see another aspect of who he is.
Regardless of whether you view your TWI experience as mostly bad or mostly good, one common thread most of us share is that our TWI experience was unique. That means, people who didn't experience it will have a difficult time relating to it. This is a place where there are others who can relate to our experiences.
I am guessing you are no longer involved with TWI for a reason. Maybe your reasons are very different from mine, but obviously somewhere along the line something went wrong. Like you, I never met VPW. He was dead and gone before I ever even heard of TWI. Judge the man, don't jude the man, makes no difference to me either way. But I can't help but wonder why you would judge so harshly others whom you have also never met, who say they were hurt by him?
To offer comfort, understanding, empathy to someone who says VPW hurt them does not mean you have to toss out your entire belief system. If you believe you were taught and are practicing the Word of God, give the glory to God, not Victor Paul Weirwille. It is entirely possible to offer comfort and understanding to those who were hurt, while still holding on to the truthes you believe you received while in TWI. Or do we continue to say "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos?"
VPW taught me God's Word and made it a loving constant presence in my Heart. For that I will always remember him and be thankful.
For the rapes and sundry other crimes he is said to have committed, I wish that I had knowledge of them going on at the time and that I would have had the ability to stand up to him and say that what he was doing was wrong and he had to change his ways immediately or be exposed to the ministry immediately for what he was doing (While he was alive)
I'm sure he could have changed his heart enough and maybe even righted some of the wrongs with sincere apology and whatever else would have been necessary.
But these are wishes. Thank God that there will be a judgement seat and he will have to answer for what he did and will carry it with him for ALL eternity.
I wish there was some way I could wave a majic wand and help everyone who suffered a wrong at his hands, The best I can do and have been doing is to bring your hurts before the Lord and ask him to help you.
For the rapes and sundry other crimes he is said to have committed, I wish that I had knowledge of them going on at the time and that I would have had the ability to stand up to him and say that what he was doing was wrong and he had to change his ways immediately or be exposed to the ministry immediately for what he was doing (While he was alive)
I have often wondered if his sudden loss of "will to live" was his response to certain individuals who threatened to reveal his history and habits. If so, it would seem that he didn't get away with it forever because he must have known what the legal consequences would be.
I mean, we haven't seen hide nor hair of the wolf after the first post.
You'd think a person would have enough good sense to know that making a statement like "I love vic, no matter WHAT people say here" is kinda like tossing a couple hundred pounds of fresh hamburger into a shark tank..
Maybe..
maybe he's on the cabinet at der vey. Checking things out.. seeing the possible consequences of re-instituting PFAL as their bread and butter program..
Oh and another minor point. Paul was a murderer BEFORE he became a Christian.
Doesn't matter. God in his foreknowledge knew that Paul would murder. So, if murder is a disqualification for someone to receive revelation, it would have applied to Saul of Tarsus. I think this may be a continuation of the religious belief that "God doesn't dwell in an unclean vessel". But bear in mind, the bible says we all are unclean, we all sin.
Golly if sinning kept God away from us, we'd all be in the soup.
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waysider
VPW was "the real deal".
Was he?
Please define what it means to be "the real deal". Maybe then we'll have an objective criteria by which to judge.
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socks
ex10, you've hit on a tru-ism. David and Paul, while commonly sited as examples in this context, are not examples. There's a major difference and I think the learning is completely missed if not seen correctly.
Let's say for a second there never was a David or Paul. That they're composites, or just the subjects of "stories", that have a message. What's the message?
There's many, I'm sure. One would be - that a man or woman can change, they can go from one extreme to another. One bad, one good. God can bring a person from one end of the spectrum to another.
In Paul we have a person who's described as no threat to anyone - unless you disagree with him. He goes from hating certain kinds of people to being one of those people and comes to understand that there's more to life and faith than the religious views he'd once held.
David - much richer back-story. We have a great image of David - then we find him completely overwhelmed by lust, to the point he destroys others lives to get what he wants. Time passes. When confronted, he changes. He can't change the damage he's done but he can change the man he's going to be and we're told that's what he did.
Whatever the story we have on VPW, he died in the midst of his own turmoil. Sad for him, and for others. There's no confrontation, no acceptance, no change we know of. The Way continues on, downhill, for many years. What it's all about today I don't know, but we do know that for the decade after he died, it got no better and only worse.
It's a bad comparison. With VPW there's no turnaround, it ends badly.
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Through the Looking Glass
I have just one word to describe VPW, and why he could not be a true representative for God.
I D O L A T R Y
One cannot serve God AND mammon.
Adultery IS idolatry!
(Mrs.. W. knew this and stated it clearly to my mother when asked the difference between "spiritual adultery" and physical adultery. That's another story though.)
Alcoholism IS idolatry!
Love of money IS idolatry!
Idolatry is anything you look to as your "source" other than the true Source, which is God. This means that when you need sexual conquests to make you feel adequate, important, validated it is idolatry. When you use alcohol to "cope" or find "peace" it is idolatry. When you turn to material things (resources) as your "Source" this is idolatry! (Yes, I have just finished reading a lot of Jeff VanVonderan's work on this subject, and it makes a helluva lot more sense than any Way class ever did.)
So basically, VPW was a very empty man trying to act full. He may have looked "spirit filled" at the time, but the truth is that if he truly had been, he wouldn't have literally been whoring after works of the flesh and idolatry to feel full.
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FullCircle
Hi Dot and thank you.
I have read before posting again here, and have watched what happened, especially I noticed how Rascal was being hounded. I am not going to make a big deal of them responding to my post here and now, only because they have the right to respond one last time to what I said to them.
I have to remind myself of what I was like in TWI, and I am not saying anyone here is in TWI but certainly if we think we learned nothing wrong, the attitude still prevails that we had when we thought we were absolutely right. I shudder at the way I treated people who disagreed with me when they came into my WOW home who dared to disagree with VP and the ministry. It takes a long time to unravel that type of thinking and learned behavior from our minds and hearts. It reminds me of a Shakespeare quote from MacBeth that goes something like, "Fair is foul and foul is fair." I did whatever I did to ensure that the 'legacy' of VP and company never was compromised by the 'deceived unbelieving.' Another thing that makes me ill how was that leadership was acute in cutting people apart with words. The bigger the leader, especially as we moved into the 1980's the more he could cut you to pieces with words. It was fairly the biggest sword of TWI, not the word of God but the ability to shred someone verbally and if done in front of an audience, the better. It was a good motivational tool as well. Rip/hound/humilate and basically wear someone down verbally, the rest of the platoon falls into submitted silence. It is my own personal opinion as I have watched, that has been happening here and I thought about stopping posting here because of it. Because I dont' want to be dragged into the mind frame of something I have fought so hard to get rid of and eventually being pushed hard enough I am afraid I would retaliate back. I am not afraid to admit that there are better people here than me in that they have handled such incidents better than I would have by now. Rascal, you're terrific :)
topic change:
I know what happened to me. I know of my 'uncomfortable' experiences with VP. I met him, unfortunately, several times in person. I also got the 'honor' of cleaning his dressing room at a heartbeat festival that they had in the '70's. I also know what happened with me and other ordained clergy and their claims of being taught by VP that is was okay to have other woman, blah blah.
I am truly sorry for what you have gone through and what the other women have experienced. I cannot imagine the horror and terror in their souls and hearts and how they must have suffered. I cannot express my anger and rage at men who would prey upon any young woman, especially those whose self esteem already suffered being abused earlier in life. That makes those men and VP true blue predators. Nothing else fits and no bible verse can justify that. That is sheer evil. Put a three piece suit on it and give it an attache case and a dove pin on the lapel and that is just the outside covering a cesspool of greed and lust and a reprobate mind.
topic change:
VP is the real thing? He never taught a thing about salvation until what, session 7 of the class and then only for a very short time? VP's empahsis in the class was NEVER Jesus Christ. It was all about VP's stolen and newly dressed up doctrines now on parade. It was a class on mock spirituality. It mocked Christianity every chance it got and many Christian virtues that were absent from TWI as well.
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skyrider
With VPW.......it ends with a wishing he'd lived differently.
VPW's epitaph: I wish I were the man I know to be.
THAT about says it all.
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johniam
David had spirit the way it was available in his day and time, conditionally. Nice to see you and the thought police on this thread.
This is Jeaniam, I forgot to switch again. My bad.
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johniam
The Bible says that David had spirit upon him from the day that Samuel anointed him for the rest of his life. Certainly the men who followed him when he was running from Saul regarded him as a spiritual leader.
My point is that some of the people that post claim that no amount of knowledge can erase hurting even one of God's children. By that logic, the knowledge gained in the epistles is outweighed by the hurt Paul did to many of God's children. I am not necessarily addressing you personally, but there are some posters who are out of control.
This is jeaniam. I forgot to switch again. My bad.
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johniam
You don't know if he did or not, unless someone died and appointed you God while I was napping.
This is jeaniam. I forgot to switch again. My bad.
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Free Soul
I find it interesting that the instigator who started this thread has not been heard from since the first & only posting. I envision this person sitting back & laughing at the flurry of posts, saying "well, my work here is done!"
Baiting people is not cool.
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johniam
I don't know that guy, but I noticed he was on here earlier this evening. Probably realizes some of these people are just plain crazy.
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Jeaniam
Do you mean like dotmatrix's sterling example?
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Eyesopen
I was beginning to wonder where he had gotten off to as well. It's not nice to open a can of worms and run away.
Thank you Dot, for making me want to puke!
Hmmm... yes?
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Jeaniam
As far as the "stalking" goes, this is a thread started by someone who wanted to say something good about VPW. Isn't it amazing that within the first few posts, there came Rascal and the thought police to make sure THAT didn't continue.
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Eyesopen
Full Circle, you hang in there babe. I like your posts. You often come up with some tantelizing tid bit that I can chew on.
As far as the mighty "Doc defenders" I can relate to ya'll and your arguments in favor of ole Vic. Up until a couple of days ago I would have probably joined you or at least remained neutral. But I have seen the light! No really I have. I don't know who posted this quote on another thread but I liked it so much I printed it:
"...I have tired to keep memory alive; I have tried to fight those who would forget. Because if we forget, we are guilty, we are accomplices...I swore never to be silent whenever, wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation...Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Acceptance Speech, December 10, 1986.
I have sworn my life to defending the weak and oppressed, both in my job and personal life and yet when it came to VP and his crimes I had continued to make excuses for his behavior...never again. He has been relegated to the same catagory that I place all sexual predators, scum of the earth.
This decision was not based solely upon the stories that I have heard or even on the personal experiences that I could add to that pot of knowledge. The decision was cemented when I realized that ole Vic never repented, never asked forgiveness, in short...he didn't care about his victims nor even his own "soul" until the very end. Even then his concern was not for their pain or their forgiveness (so far as we have been told by CG). Ole Vic was concerned that his legacy wasn't being carried out as he would have it. This behavior, based upon my experience (which is considerable) comes from a hardened heart. I am beginning to think that ole Vic was a textbook narcisistic sociopath, among other things.
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dmiller
Jean (and John) -- Before this turns into even more of a fiasco,
I hope you don't consider me part of the *Thought Police*.
Maybe I am, in your book, but in this particular thread --
I was merely addressing statements made.
My intention (in posting to LoneWolf) was not so much as to debunk his post,
or try to make sure that any good docvic might've done goes unnoticed,
but rather to address his statements about his claim of
(as he put it about those of us here), ludicrous statements.
For what it is worth -- I lost my respect for Docvic about 20 years ago,
when the POP was hitting the fan, along with other revelations about him.
For what it is worth -- before that I would have peed in the road,
to make a puddle to throw my jacket over,
so he could walk across without getting his shoes wet.
Docvic did many things in his life, LOT'S of which are told about here.
When someone says that one aspect of his (good) life
*negates* the (evil) life, it has to go to the scales, and get weighed.
Why isn't it (logical) to think that his (bad) life might
negate his (good) life that he led???
We'll have to wait to see which way the scales tip, won't we?
A lot has been said here about sin and forgiveness,
(who did, and who didn't -- sometimes with references included!).
If someone doesn't own up to their sin, and repent (change),
are their Godly actions (if they have any) valid?
I dunno, for one. But I have my suspicions.
This is something that none of us know for sure (obviously),
but if (as the saying goes) Actions Speak Louder Than Words is true,
you finish the sentence.
It's a LAW sentence that applies to all -- saint and sinner alike.
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Abigail
Why "certainly the men who followed him . . . regarded him as a spiritual leader"? I am not sure the Bible says that. I would think the people who followed him thought of him as their king, not their priest or Rabbi. Particularly because David was not a Levite.
In any case, I would say no amount of knowledge erases hurting "God's children." Knowledge puffeth up, yes?
I am not saying VPW was evil incarnate. I am not even saying everything he taught was wrong. But whatever things he taught accurately, whatever good he did, that does not erase the hurt either. The people who were hurt by him never had a chance for true closure, never received an apology, never had an opportunity to see the man be remorseful for the hurt he caused them.
Greasespot is one of the few places they can go, where they can let out that hurt and anger and be comforted and understood by people who understand what they've been through. You may see us as miserable comforters, that is fine and you have a right to your opinion.
Other people come here, who have suffered different hurts by others in TWI, and again, this is the place where they can express their pain and anger and be understood. None of that means their whole life is consumed by hurt and anger, regardless of how it may come across in this one dimensional view we often get of each other here on the forums. Just like your stance in these threads does not represent the entire person you are. I know how your husband comes across in these forums sometimes. I have also conversed with him on non-two topics, allowing me to see another aspect of who he is.
Regardless of whether you view your TWI experience as mostly bad or mostly good, one common thread most of us share is that our TWI experience was unique. That means, people who didn't experience it will have a difficult time relating to it. This is a place where there are others who can relate to our experiences.
I am guessing you are no longer involved with TWI for a reason. Maybe your reasons are very different from mine, but obviously somewhere along the line something went wrong. Like you, I never met VPW. He was dead and gone before I ever even heard of TWI. Judge the man, don't jude the man, makes no difference to me either way. But I can't help but wonder why you would judge so harshly others whom you have also never met, who say they were hurt by him?
To offer comfort, understanding, empathy to someone who says VPW hurt them does not mean you have to toss out your entire belief system. If you believe you were taught and are practicing the Word of God, give the glory to God, not Victor Paul Weirwille. It is entirely possible to offer comfort and understanding to those who were hurt, while still holding on to the truthes you believe you received while in TWI. Or do we continue to say "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos?"
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Out There
VPW taught me God's Word and made it a loving constant presence in my Heart. For that I will always remember him and be thankful.
For the rapes and sundry other crimes he is said to have committed, I wish that I had knowledge of them going on at the time and that I would have had the ability to stand up to him and say that what he was doing was wrong and he had to change his ways immediately or be exposed to the ministry immediately for what he was doing (While he was alive)
I'm sure he could have changed his heart enough and maybe even righted some of the wrongs with sincere apology and whatever else would have been necessary.
But these are wishes. Thank God that there will be a judgement seat and he will have to answer for what he did and will carry it with him for ALL eternity.
I wish there was some way I could wave a majic wand and help everyone who suffered a wrong at his hands, The best I can do and have been doing is to bring your hurts before the Lord and ask him to help you.
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rascal
Hmmm..*Rascal and the thought police* sounds like a good name for a music group :)
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another spot
"I was beginning to wonder where he had gotten off to as well. It's not nice to open a can of worms and run away."
I'm starting to think Johniam, Jeaniam and Lone Wolf are all one and the same.
Note the similarity in writing style, arguments, and time of day when they post.
John posts on another thread using twi's 100,000 members as proof vpw was
genuine, then magically a new thread by Lone Wolf starts using the same argument.
He or she frequently "forgets" to switch identies from Jean to John and back.
I've seen this before on finance forums (stocks) where a poster creates other
identies to post things to back himself up.
There's no knowing if these people (or one person) are even out of TWI....
So what's your agenda, "John"? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
You stated elsewhere you think you are about to get booted off the forum. Why do
you think that? And especially, WHY do you continue to post content you yourself
think might get you booted off????
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johniam
quote: I'm starting to think Johniam, Jeaniam and Lone Wolf are all one and the same.
Nice conspiracy theory, but...no.
quote: Jean (and John) -- Before this turns into even more of a fiasco,
I hope you don't consider me part of the *Thought Police*.
Not at all.
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waterbuffalo
I have often wondered if his sudden loss of "will to live" was his response to certain individuals who threatened to reveal his history and habits. If so, it would seem that he didn't get away with it forever because he must have known what the legal consequences would be.
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Ham
What I wonder is if he is J.L.
Or maybe somebody wanting to open a new Belezian type fellowship in the U.S.
Just testing the waters, toss out a tasty, choice "I love Wienerville" statement just to see what would happen..
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Ham
I mean, we haven't seen hide nor hair of the wolf after the first post.
You'd think a person would have enough good sense to know that making a statement like "I love vic, no matter WHAT people say here" is kinda like tossing a couple hundred pounds of fresh hamburger into a shark tank..
Maybe..
maybe he's on the cabinet at der vey. Checking things out.. seeing the possible consequences of re-instituting PFAL as their bread and butter program..
Well, now they know..
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oldiesman
Doesn't matter. God in his foreknowledge knew that Paul would murder. So, if murder is a disqualification for someone to receive revelation, it would have applied to Saul of Tarsus. I think this may be a continuation of the religious belief that "God doesn't dwell in an unclean vessel". But bear in mind, the bible says we all are unclean, we all sin.
Golly if sinning kept God away from us, we'd all be in the soup.
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