I have heard a lot of new things here about VPW I never knew when I went through the Corps.
And was quite shocked to see the direction of the Ministry and the LCM stuff there after.
Be thankful to God you were overlooked or not chosen to be included.
Or a guy.
Vp was not perfect.
Who is?
Jesus, and he's not particularly fond of people who cause his little ones to stumble.
Better than man not have been born than he do that, that's what my Lord said.
I'm inclined to consider Jesus an authority on the subject.
I once learned we can't forgive someone until we remember what we are/were forgiven for.
About the plagarism, well I sat throug BJ Lenards class too. He spoke of plagarism rights.
It was just like sitting through the ADV class without so much scripture.
I concur much he taught was already there, VP just reverberated it.
Right. That's plagiarism-which is a legal crime and a moral wrong.
It is deceptive, prideful, lazy, and criminal.
Is that wrong?
If vpw had cited his sources for the material, it would have been perfectly fine.
He knew EXACTLY where he got it all. WE found out decades later, and it wouldn't have
been so impossible for US to cite them.
He CHOSE not to for his own reasons, and that is morally wrong,
and criminally wrong.
Fraud is a felony in the US of A.
I think my Lord Jesus repeated scripture that was written before him and opened the eyes of their understanding.
I can SIT when I want for specific and non-specific things everwhere I go.
Jesus didn't claim credit for writing the Torah.
Much I learned I will never let anyone talk me out of.
And yes I do doubt this and that but heck I did that before during and after the Way. We are called humans.
Please stop fogging the issue.
The quality of the material has nothing to do with it being stolen.
"Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth."-Raf.
None of us claims the theft affects the material itself in any substantial manner.
VP is not here to defend himself as he is gone off of the earth.
Yet if he was he would melt your face.
I agree.
If vpw were alive and anyone questioned him, he would SCREAM at them AT HIGH VOLUME-
which he did when alive.
You left out the OTHER things he did when others MIGHT question him-
he kicked them out of twi, ostracized them,
and told the members they were possessed, lower than dirt, and should not be
spoken to unless one wanted to get possessed also.
BTW,
if volume of voice =holiness, Al Sharpton is twice the minister vpw was,
because he can shake a building when he screams.
I was not aware, however, that volume or presentation=truth...
I am not advocating how he hurt young innocent females hearts or other things that it was right. But I know he did reverberate the Word to us. I am still at times troubled about his lifestyles but hey I am troubled by those around me today.
I really don't want anyone to have a go at me of my thoughts but if you want to: BUGGER OFF !
I'm glad you admit he hurt some of our beloved sisters- some people refuse to accept
that. (Plus some of the other things.)
I'm glad I was taught the Word also. However, I'm mindful it was part of an agenda.
And if you don't want anyone to respond to your thoughts, you shouldn't post them online.
quote: is it not a damned shame when people don't CARE?
quote: And that my friends, is one reason why Wierwille was able to get away with his lying, his plagiarism, his abuses both sexual and mental. Enough people who knew, didn't care.
We care; everybody cares about something.
The context was caring about the crimes vpw committed-
"his lying
his plagiarism
his abuses both sexual
and mental"
You don't care about THAT.
You even quoted that YOURSELF.
If you have a strong emotional response about US trade relations,
it's irrelevant to the discussion. Everybody cares about SOMETHING (DUUUUHHHH),
but not all care about vpw's abuses and crimes.
We just don't care about the petty little pathetic attempts to put us under law we see here.
"Attempts to put us under law"
must be Johniam speak for
"trying to get us to see that it was wrong for vpw to plagiarize, rape, drug and rape,
and aid and abet others in raping."
Johniam has a non-standard use of language.
(Either that, or his reading comprehension and my reading comprehension skills
are translating this thread into completely different things.
The first mention of the law was by me AFTER he posted this,
and it was the laws of the US, which he is subject to anyway as a US citizen
(even prison inmates who rejected them are STILL subject to them),
and nobody ever mentioned the law as it applies to JOHN-
just how it would-and should- apply to vpw, who broke them and
conspired elaborately to cover up his tracks completely.
It was a brilliant piece of work. It takes a fair degree of intelligence-
and a complete absence of conscience- to set up the system vpw did
and keep it running so well that decades later, some people can still
call vpw's victims LIARS when they say what vpw did,
and eyewitnesses LIARS when they say what they saw vpw do.
And that my friends, is one reason why Wierwille was able to get away with his lying, his plagiarism, his abuses both sexual and mental. Enough people who knew, didn't care.
I don't fall into the catagory of people who knew and didn't care. Right now I am only talking about his alleged plagiarism, not anything else.
Jeaniam, just out of curiosity, if it was your daughter who had had sex with vp and you found out about it, would you care about that?
I am not talking about that, I am only talking about his alleged plagiaism. That happened even more years ago than the other stuff, I know nothing about it, and I am not willing to get sucked into an endless debate on the subject. Since I KNOW that no one died and elected ME God while I was napping, I am once again not going to take it upon myself to sit in judgment, especially not on this topic.
The context was caring about the crimes vpw committed-
"his lying
his plagiarism
his abuses both sexual
and mental"
You don't care about THAT.
You even quoted that YOURSELF.
.
Actually I didn't say precisely that. Someone else took it upon themselves to embellish what I said. You need to pay attention and make sure you're reading accurately
Here we go again.
Hopefully not. I really have no intention of getting sucked into Rascal's and Word Wolf's universe on this thread.
Why do you call it my universe?? Are you in an alternate one??? I have simply TOLD you what happened in twi. What problem do you have with reality?
You have told me your VERSION of what happened in TWI. And I have told you repeatedly my experience in TWI was very different. You have your explanation for that and I have mine. I don't think that means I have a problem with reality; I think it means that I am not going to run to ascribe the worst possible motivation to everyone I meet.
You are ignoring several people that have told you what happened.....their *version* is the same as my own.
I do not believe that you are honest jean. There were a lot of people that took you at face value when you said that you wanted the truth. There were alot of people that took the time and effort to write what happened to them.
You have decided that it is simply *uninteresting*.
It would have been more honest for you to have simply said *My mind is made up...DON`T confuse me with the facts*
You are ignoring several people that have told you what happened.....their *version* is the same as my own.
I do not believe that you are honest jean. There were a lot of people that took you at face value when you said that you wanted the truth.
I recall saying that I didn't (and don't) think the whole truth is available at this late date. For the rest I think once again that these people read something into my posts that I didn't intend. I don't think I ever said or implied that I wanted any one to retell their story of whatever did or didn't happen in TWI.
If no anecdotal evidence is produced, how can anyone possibly remember the good or bad things VPW did for The Way Ministry?
"Hey! I'm just sayin'------Stop yellin' at me!"
It's a string of misunderstandings that involve something that happened on a different thread, and got carried over to this one. In a general sense on this thread I do want people to tell their stories of the good things that happened in TWI. In a certain narrow specific sense on a different thread, I don't. And that's as much detail as I am prepared to go into.
You're being given the information now and you don't care now.
In this situation, not only is one of the main participants dead, they both are. And I am not egotistical enough to believe that at this late date my opinion matters AT ALL.
quote: Maybe the real question that should be asked is what good things did VPW do for the body of Christ?...
I'll vote for 'Are the Dead Alive Now'. During his last SNS teaching at HQ, not even one month before he died, he reaffirmed that ADAN was the most important thing he ever taught, IHO. Before TWI I kind of leaned toward reincarnation, but his presentation of ADAN just made sense; still does.
Once in a conversation with believers, we were all talking about which topic was more critical, JCING or ADAN. One guy said, "Which one has more devil spirits associated with it?", the obvious answer being ADAN. That song off the first Breakthrough recording paints a desperate picture of people trying to somehow get in touch with departed loved ones driving themselves crazy in the process. I haven't known many people like that, but the ones I HAVE known stand out. They just can't enjoy life; they're in bondage. ADAN delivers people from this. That's a good thing IMO.
quote: I do not believe that you are honest jean. There were a lot of people that took you at face value when you said that you wanted the truth. There were alot of people that took the time and effort to write what happened to them.
You have decided that it is simply *uninteresting*.
It would have been more honest for you to have simply said *My mind is made up...DON`T confuse me with the facts*
Then nobody would have wasted their time.
Sounds like conditional love to me. People come on GSC and you love bomb them with "Hi how are ya welcome to the spot your input is valuable you seem like an intelligent person blah blah blah" but after awhile then it's time to get serious and if someone "doesn't want the class" then they're a waste of your time. Even the most blatant examples of this from TWI days were more gracious than that.
In this situation, not only is one of the main participants dead, they both are. And I am not egotistical enough to believe that at this late date my opinion matters AT ALL.
Hmph...I think that your opinion does matter, even though I disagree with it. :B)
quote: Maybe the real question that should be asked is what good things did VPW do for the body of Christ?...
I'll vote for 'Are the Dead Alive Now'.
That is the answer to the question "What good did E.W. Bullinger do..." since that's who Wierwille lifted ADAN from.
During his last SNS teaching at HQ, not even one month before he died, he reaffirmed that ADAN was the most important thing he ever taught, IHO.
Okay, that's what Wierwille thought about his own plagiarized work
Before TWI I kind of leaned toward reincarnation, but his presentation of ADAN just made sense; still does.
Mostly it does, although he dismisses the contradictory verses too blithely, waving them off as "unclear" when they really just support a position opposite from his own. Bullinger did the same thing IMHO.
Once in a conversation with believers, we were all talking about which topic was more critical, JCING or ADAN. One guy said, "Which one has more devil spirits associated with it?", the obvious answer being ADAN.
Why is that obvious and what are you basing it on?
That song off the first Breakthrough recording paints a desperate picture of people trying to somehow get in touch with departed loved ones driving themselves crazy in the process. I haven't known many people like that, but the ones I HAVE known stand out. They just can't enjoy life; they're in bondage.
Well that's certainly the picture that TWI wanted to paint. I know many people who contact the dead, and haven't seen any not enjoying life or in bondage.
ADAN delivers people from this. That's a good thing IMO.
Deliverance from something a bondage that exists only in the minds of those who oppose the concept of life after death.
More proof some people aren't actually reading this, and are heavily-filtering,
or "cherry-picking",
the discussion.
Jeaniam quoted me saying
"The context was caring about the crimes vpw committed-
"his lying
his plagiarism
his abuses both sexual
and mental"
You don't care about THAT.
You even quoted that YOURSELF."
Jeaniam replied.
"Actually I didn't say precisely that. Someone else took it upon themselves to embellish what I said. You need to pay attention and make sure you're reading accurately."
Jeaniam obviously was NOT paying attention.
She quoted me from a post further up the same page, post 28, which was especially easy to find
since the quote had the arrow to link directly to the post.
MY post quoted JOHN,
includes his name, the date and time of HIS post, the entirety of HIS post,
and the arrow to link directly to HIS post.
HIS post said
"quote: is it not a damned shame when people don't CARE?
quote: And that my friends, is one reason why Wierwille was able to get away with his lying, his plagiarism, his abuses both sexual and mental. Enough people who knew, didn't care.
We care; everybody cares about something."
The last line was HIM, the others were quotes from other people.
They said-and he quoted- that we were discussing
Wierwille's lying, plagiarism, his abuses both sexual and mental.
John replied he cared about SOMETHING.
My reply, again, was
"The context was caring about the crimes vpw committed-
"his lying
his plagiarism
his abuses both sexual
and mental"
You don't care about THAT.
You even quoted that YOURSELF.
If you have a strong emotional response about US trade relations,
it's irrelevant to the discussion. Everybody cares about SOMETHING (DUUUUHHHH),
but not all care about vpw's abuses and crimes."
Jean then took THAT post-complete with quoting John, and said
"Actually I didn't say precisely that. Someone else took it upon themselves to embellish what I said. You need to pay attention and make sure you're reading accurately."
Well, Jean, as anyone COULD have seen-and I've requoted here- nobody said YOU said that,
precisely, approximately, or any other way. I was addressing JOHN and what HE said- and that
EXACTLY- word for word, WITHOUT any embellishment.
Since she brought it up, JEAN could use paying attention and make sure she's reading accurately.
(She brought it up.)
And again, John would sooner fog the issue than admit indifference to the
lying
plagiarism
mental abuses
sexual abuses
of vpw.
Since John is not completely in control of his faculties
(his mind responds in a dysfunctional pattern, carefully perpetrated by vpw, when facing vpw's crimes,
and John is another wounded victim on this forum,)
so some empathy and pathos for this CAN be extended towards him.
"I really have no intention of getting sucked into Rascal's and Word Wolf's universe on this thread."
rascal:
"Why do you call it my universe?? Are you in an alternate one??? I have simply TOLD you what happened in twi. What problem do you have with reality?"
Jeaniam:
"You have told me your VERSION of what happened in TWI. And I have told you repeatedly my experience in TWI was very different. You have your explanation for that and I have mine. I don't think that means I have a problem with reality; I think it means that I am not going to run to ascribe the worst possible motivation to everyone I meet."
rascal:
"You are ignoring several people that have told you what happened.....their *version* is the same as my own."
(snip)
1) I noticed Jean misspelled my screenname.
2) I noticed Jean claims she's in a different universe than I am.
3) Jean has made the error of confusing rascal's EXPERIENCE, WordWolf's EXPERIENCE,
and Jean's EXPERIENCE,
and what actually HAPPENED.
Me, here's what I do.
I take my EXPERIENCE,
and to that I supplement accounts from others-including news reports if available-
and analyze the sum total,
and make my best conclusion based on the evidence at hand.
My EXPERIENCE of 9/11 was that the news was covering a supposed incident, and lots of people
were discussing it as well. Some train service was disrupted, all of Manhattan smelled like char
for about a week, with concrete dust across almost all of it, and one person north of NYC said
it looked like NYC was burning, judging from the thick cloud.
Therefore, IF ONE PERSON'S EXPERIENCE was the be-all and end-all of finding the truth on a subject,
then I would be unable to categorize 9/11 beyond "Manhattan got dirty and train service was unreliable."
Of course, we can interview neither the hijackers of any plane, nor the passengers of them.
According to some people, that means we will never know the truth of what happened concerning
all 4 planes. ANYTHING is possible, since NOTHING can be determined.
Perhaps the government hijacked them. Perhaps they were blown up in midair.
Perhaps there were 4 planes abducted by aliens.
We can't know since the passengers and alleged hijackers can't be interviewed.
Oh, wait.
We can rely on an investigation of 9/11.
We can rely on investigations of most things considered historical facts and the results of investigations-
but when it comes to what vpw did, we can't rely on ANYTHING.
THEN we are crippled and doomed to complete uncertainty.
"I didn't see him do it"= "He must not have done it."
vpw's crimes get SPECIAL TREATMENT, and ANYTHING ELSE we can draw reliable conclusions on.
I sometimes forget, for a moment, the SELECTIVE NATURE of criticisms of discussing ANY
crime, wrongdoing, or any OTHER type of evil performed by vpw.
Since I'm not crippled mentally by viewing any human as sacrosanct (save only the one seated
at the right hand of God Almighty) , I forget not everyone is free of injury in this fashion.
quote: I do not believe that you are honest jean. There were a lot of people that took you at face value when you said that you wanted the truth. There were alot of people that took the time and effort to write what happened to them.
You have decided that it is simply *uninteresting*.
It would have been more honest for you to have simply said *My mind is made up...DON`T confuse me with the facts*
Then nobody would have wasted their time.
Sounds like conditional love to me. People come on GSC and you love bomb them with "Hi how are ya welcome to the spot your input is valuable you seem like an intelligent person blah blah blah" but after awhile then it's time to get serious and if someone "doesn't want the class" then they're a waste of your time. Even the most blatant examples of this from TWI days were more gracious than that.
John,
you've already established that what things sound like to you is not reliable and not consistent.
I'll translate the above to you- which you quoted and replied to.
(In case Jean is misreading this, I'm answering JOHN here like it says in the quote-flag, not Jean.)
rascal said nobody would have wasted their time writing out their accounts of what they
experienced first-hand, if the person who supposedly was INTERESTED in knowing what
happened admitted that they DIDN'T CARE what happened after all.
To write out one's experience to enlighten the DISINTERESTED is a WASTE OF TIME,
as most rational people would readily admit.
That's what you quoted.
You then said that this very reply "sounds like conditional love to me", and went off on a
lecture about "conditional love". But this doesn't sound like "CONDITIONAL LOVE" to
anyone else. This sounds like people NOT WASTING THEIR TIME.
If a parent decided to spare their child a 20-minute account of their own upbringing
because the child was disinterested, was that UNLOVING? No, they're just not
wasting their time, partly BECAUSE they love their child.
Most people can see the difference, and love-conditional or unconditional- has no
bearing on whether or not someone chooses not to waste the time of the disinterested.
I can post a lengthy diatribe in the history of swords throughout history.
I don't. Is it because I don't care about the posters,
or because I don't want to spend hours writing something that doesn't interest them?
I'll leave that for you to work out on your own- most people can solve that one
without any help from me.
=========
As to your (unsolicited) speech about the conditional love in twi being superior to
that in the GSC,
almost everyone here would find that silly.
In twi, past and present, if you're not interested in toeing the company line,
you're to be ignored, and in most places, cast adrift even if you want to hang around.
You won't even get discussions on the weather.
In the GSC, you're welcome to read, post, and participate fully if you're in complete
disagreement and post in complete opposition to most people-
so long as you don't post abusively, troll, or break rules common across the internet.
You can even play the games in the Reading Room indefinitely.
The non-Christians on the GSC are a lot more "loving" in "unconditional" fashions
than twi innies are now, or ever were when in.
But of course, your diatribe didn't REALLY relate to the discussion as it stood,
nor should anyone expect it to....
John,
I know twi called mental health professionals all kinds of scummy things,
but please consider finding a Christian with a professional license and experience,
and seeing if you can derive some benefit from addressing unresolved issues
from your time in twi. You'd derive lasting benefit, even if you only resolved a
little. (In case you can't tell, this is sincere, legitimate advice, meant in the
hopes that a brother in Christ will consider it and take action on it, to his
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WordWolf
Be thankful to God you were overlooked or not chosen to be included.
Or a guy.
Jesus, and he's not particularly fond of people who cause his little ones to stumble.Better than man not have been born than he do that, that's what my Lord said.
I'm inclined to consider Jesus an authority on the subject.
Right. That's plagiarism-which is a legal crime and a moral wrong.
It is deceptive, prideful, lazy, and criminal.
If vpw had cited his sources for the material, it would have been perfectly fine.He knew EXACTLY where he got it all. WE found out decades later, and it wouldn't have
been so impossible for US to cite them.
He CHOSE not to for his own reasons, and that is morally wrong,
and criminally wrong.
Fraud is a felony in the US of A.
Jesus didn't claim credit for writing the Torah.
Please stop fogging the issue.The quality of the material has nothing to do with it being stolen.
"Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth."-Raf.
None of us claims the theft affects the material itself in any substantial manner.
I agree.
If vpw were alive and anyone questioned him, he would SCREAM at them AT HIGH VOLUME-
which he did when alive.
You left out the OTHER things he did when others MIGHT question him-
he kicked them out of twi, ostracized them,
and told the members they were possessed, lower than dirt, and should not be
spoken to unless one wanted to get possessed also.
BTW,
if volume of voice =holiness, Al Sharpton is twice the minister vpw was,
because he can shake a building when he screams.
I was not aware, however, that volume or presentation=truth...
I'm glad you admit he hurt some of our beloved sisters- some people refuse to accept
that. (Plus some of the other things.)
I'm glad I was taught the Word also. However, I'm mindful it was part of an agenda.
And if you don't want anyone to respond to your thoughts, you shouldn't post them online.
Nobody gets a free ride on that.....
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WordWolf
The context was caring about the crimes vpw committed-
"his lying
his plagiarism
his abuses both sexual
and mental"
You don't care about THAT.
You even quoted that YOURSELF.
If you have a strong emotional response about US trade relations,
it's irrelevant to the discussion. Everybody cares about SOMETHING (DUUUUHHHH),
but not all care about vpw's abuses and crimes.
"Attempts to put us under law"
must be Johniam speak for
"trying to get us to see that it was wrong for vpw to plagiarize, rape, drug and rape,
and aid and abet others in raping."
Johniam has a non-standard use of language.
(Either that, or his reading comprehension and my reading comprehension skills
are translating this thread into completely different things.
The first mention of the law was by me AFTER he posted this,
and it was the laws of the US, which he is subject to anyway as a US citizen
(even prison inmates who rejected them are STILL subject to them),
and nobody ever mentioned the law as it applies to JOHN-
just how it would-and should- apply to vpw, who broke them and
conspired elaborately to cover up his tracks completely.
It was a brilliant piece of work. It takes a fair degree of intelligence-
and a complete absence of conscience- to set up the system vpw did
and keep it running so well that decades later, some people can still
call vpw's victims LIARS when they say what vpw did,
and eyewitnesses LIARS when they say what they saw vpw do.
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Jeaniam
I don't fall into the catagory of people who knew and didn't care. Right now I am only talking about his alleged plagiarism, not anything else.
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Jeaniam
I am not talking about that, I am only talking about his alleged plagiaism. That happened even more years ago than the other stuff, I know nothing about it, and I am not willing to get sucked into an endless debate on the subject. Since I KNOW that no one died and elected ME God while I was napping, I am once again not going to take it upon myself to sit in judgment, especially not on this topic.
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Danny
Here we go again.
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Jeaniam
Actually I didn't say precisely that. Someone else took it upon themselves to embellish what I said. You need to pay attention and make sure you're reading accurately
Hopefully not. I really have no intention of getting sucked into Rascal's and Word Wolf's universe on this thread.
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rascal
Why do you call it my universe?? Are you in an alternate one??? I have simply TOLD you what happened in twi. What problem do you have with reality?
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Jeaniam
You have told me your VERSION of what happened in TWI. And I have told you repeatedly my experience in TWI was very different. You have your explanation for that and I have mine. I don't think that means I have a problem with reality; I think it means that I am not going to run to ascribe the worst possible motivation to everyone I meet.
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rascal
You are ignoring several people that have told you what happened.....their *version* is the same as my own.
I do not believe that you are honest jean. There were a lot of people that took you at face value when you said that you wanted the truth. There were alot of people that took the time and effort to write what happened to them.
You have decided that it is simply *uninteresting*.
It would have been more honest for you to have simply said *My mind is made up...DON`T confuse me with the facts*
Then nobody would have wasted their time.
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Jeaniam
I recall saying that I didn't (and don't) think the whole truth is available at this late date. For the rest I think once again that these people read something into my posts that I didn't intend. I don't think I ever said or implied that I wanted any one to retell their story of whatever did or didn't happen in TWI.
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waysider
If no anecdotal evidence is produced, how can anyone possibly remember the good or bad things VPW did for The Way Ministry?
"Hey! I'm just sayin'------Stop yellin' at me!"
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GT
Finally got tired of seeing "Goos things....." jumping up and down the forum index and fixed the title.
Probably will be the last you see of me in this topic...
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Jeaniam
It's a string of misunderstandings that involve something that happened on a different thread, and got carried over to this one. In a general sense on this thread I do want people to tell their stories of the good things that happened in TWI. In a certain narrow specific sense on a different thread, I don't. And that's as much detail as I am prepared to go into.
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excathedra
are you smoking that wacky weed ?
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Oakspear
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GrouchoMarxJr
Good things that VPW did for the Way Ministry?...
...He made his organization a lot of money.
Maybe the real question that should be asked is what good things did VPW do for the body of Christ?...
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Jeaniam
In this situation, not only is one of the main participants dead, they both are. And I am not egotistical enough to believe that at this late date my opinion matters AT ALL.
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Jeaniam
quote: Maybe the real question that should be asked is what good things did VPW do for the body of Christ?...
I'll vote for 'Are the Dead Alive Now'. During his last SNS teaching at HQ, not even one month before he died, he reaffirmed that ADAN was the most important thing he ever taught, IHO. Before TWI I kind of leaned toward reincarnation, but his presentation of ADAN just made sense; still does.
Once in a conversation with believers, we were all talking about which topic was more critical, JCING or ADAN. One guy said, "Which one has more devil spirits associated with it?", the obvious answer being ADAN. That song off the first Breakthrough recording paints a desperate picture of people trying to somehow get in touch with departed loved ones driving themselves crazy in the process. I haven't known many people like that, but the ones I HAVE known stand out. They just can't enjoy life; they're in bondage. ADAN delivers people from this. That's a good thing IMO.
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johniam
quote: I do not believe that you are honest jean. There were a lot of people that took you at face value when you said that you wanted the truth. There were alot of people that took the time and effort to write what happened to them.
You have decided that it is simply *uninteresting*.
It would have been more honest for you to have simply said *My mind is made up...DON`T confuse me with the facts*
Then nobody would have wasted their time.
Sounds like conditional love to me. People come on GSC and you love bomb them with "Hi how are ya welcome to the spot your input is valuable you seem like an intelligent person blah blah blah" but after awhile then it's time to get serious and if someone "doesn't want the class" then they're a waste of your time. Even the most blatant examples of this from TWI days were more gracious than that.
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Oakspear
I understand what you're saying, but I disagree.
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WordWolf
More proof some people aren't actually reading this, and are heavily-filtering,
or "cherry-picking",
the discussion.
Jeaniam quoted me saying
"The context was caring about the crimes vpw committed-
"his lying
his plagiarism
his abuses both sexual
and mental"
You don't care about THAT.
You even quoted that YOURSELF."
Jeaniam replied.
"Actually I didn't say precisely that. Someone else took it upon themselves to embellish what I said. You need to pay attention and make sure you're reading accurately."
Jeaniam obviously was NOT paying attention.
She quoted me from a post further up the same page, post 28, which was especially easy to find
since the quote had the arrow to link directly to the post.
MY post quoted JOHN,
includes his name, the date and time of HIS post, the entirety of HIS post,
and the arrow to link directly to HIS post.
HIS post said
"quote: is it not a damned shame when people don't CARE?
quote: And that my friends, is one reason why Wierwille was able to get away with his lying, his plagiarism, his abuses both sexual and mental. Enough people who knew, didn't care.
We care; everybody cares about something."
The last line was HIM, the others were quotes from other people.
They said-and he quoted- that we were discussing
Wierwille's lying, plagiarism, his abuses both sexual and mental.
John replied he cared about SOMETHING.
My reply, again, was
"The context was caring about the crimes vpw committed-
"his lying
his plagiarism
his abuses both sexual
and mental"
You don't care about THAT.
You even quoted that YOURSELF.
If you have a strong emotional response about US trade relations,
it's irrelevant to the discussion. Everybody cares about SOMETHING (DUUUUHHHH),
but not all care about vpw's abuses and crimes."
Jean then took THAT post-complete with quoting John, and said
"Actually I didn't say precisely that. Someone else took it upon themselves to embellish what I said. You need to pay attention and make sure you're reading accurately."
Well, Jean, as anyone COULD have seen-and I've requoted here- nobody said YOU said that,
precisely, approximately, or any other way. I was addressing JOHN and what HE said- and that
EXACTLY- word for word, WITHOUT any embellishment.
Since she brought it up, JEAN could use paying attention and make sure she's reading accurately.
(She brought it up.)
And again, John would sooner fog the issue than admit indifference to the
lying
plagiarism
mental abuses
sexual abuses
of vpw.
Since John is not completely in control of his faculties
(his mind responds in a dysfunctional pattern, carefully perpetrated by vpw, when facing vpw's crimes,
and John is another wounded victim on this forum,)
so some empathy and pathos for this CAN be extended towards him.
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WordWolf
Jeaniam:
"I really have no intention of getting sucked into Rascal's and Word Wolf's universe on this thread."
rascal:
"Why do you call it my universe?? Are you in an alternate one??? I have simply TOLD you what happened in twi. What problem do you have with reality?"
Jeaniam:
"You have told me your VERSION of what happened in TWI. And I have told you repeatedly my experience in TWI was very different. You have your explanation for that and I have mine. I don't think that means I have a problem with reality; I think it means that I am not going to run to ascribe the worst possible motivation to everyone I meet."
rascal:
"You are ignoring several people that have told you what happened.....their *version* is the same as my own."
(snip)
1) I noticed Jean misspelled my screenname.
2) I noticed Jean claims she's in a different universe than I am.
3) Jean has made the error of confusing rascal's EXPERIENCE, WordWolf's EXPERIENCE,
and Jean's EXPERIENCE,
and what actually HAPPENED.
Me, here's what I do.
I take my EXPERIENCE,
and to that I supplement accounts from others-including news reports if available-
and analyze the sum total,
and make my best conclusion based on the evidence at hand.
My EXPERIENCE of 9/11 was that the news was covering a supposed incident, and lots of people
were discussing it as well. Some train service was disrupted, all of Manhattan smelled like char
for about a week, with concrete dust across almost all of it, and one person north of NYC said
it looked like NYC was burning, judging from the thick cloud.
Therefore, IF ONE PERSON'S EXPERIENCE was the be-all and end-all of finding the truth on a subject,
then I would be unable to categorize 9/11 beyond "Manhattan got dirty and train service was unreliable."
Of course, we can interview neither the hijackers of any plane, nor the passengers of them.
According to some people, that means we will never know the truth of what happened concerning
all 4 planes. ANYTHING is possible, since NOTHING can be determined.
Perhaps the government hijacked them. Perhaps they were blown up in midair.
Perhaps there were 4 planes abducted by aliens.
We can't know since the passengers and alleged hijackers can't be interviewed.
Oh, wait.
We can rely on an investigation of 9/11.
We can rely on investigations of most things considered historical facts and the results of investigations-
but when it comes to what vpw did, we can't rely on ANYTHING.
THEN we are crippled and doomed to complete uncertainty.
"I didn't see him do it"= "He must not have done it."
vpw's crimes get SPECIAL TREATMENT, and ANYTHING ELSE we can draw reliable conclusions on.
I sometimes forget, for a moment, the SELECTIVE NATURE of criticisms of discussing ANY
crime, wrongdoing, or any OTHER type of evil performed by vpw.
Since I'm not crippled mentally by viewing any human as sacrosanct (save only the one seated
at the right hand of God Almighty) , I forget not everyone is free of injury in this fashion.
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WordWolf
John,
you've already established that what things sound like to you is not reliable and not consistent.
I'll translate the above to you- which you quoted and replied to.
(In case Jean is misreading this, I'm answering JOHN here like it says in the quote-flag, not Jean.)
rascal said nobody would have wasted their time writing out their accounts of what they
experienced first-hand, if the person who supposedly was INTERESTED in knowing what
happened admitted that they DIDN'T CARE what happened after all.
To write out one's experience to enlighten the DISINTERESTED is a WASTE OF TIME,
as most rational people would readily admit.
That's what you quoted.
You then said that this very reply "sounds like conditional love to me", and went off on a
lecture about "conditional love". But this doesn't sound like "CONDITIONAL LOVE" to
anyone else. This sounds like people NOT WASTING THEIR TIME.
If a parent decided to spare their child a 20-minute account of their own upbringing
because the child was disinterested, was that UNLOVING? No, they're just not
wasting their time, partly BECAUSE they love their child.
Most people can see the difference, and love-conditional or unconditional- has no
bearing on whether or not someone chooses not to waste the time of the disinterested.
I can post a lengthy diatribe in the history of swords throughout history.
I don't. Is it because I don't care about the posters,
or because I don't want to spend hours writing something that doesn't interest them?
I'll leave that for you to work out on your own- most people can solve that one
without any help from me.
=========
As to your (unsolicited) speech about the conditional love in twi being superior to
that in the GSC,
almost everyone here would find that silly.
In twi, past and present, if you're not interested in toeing the company line,
you're to be ignored, and in most places, cast adrift even if you want to hang around.
You won't even get discussions on the weather.
In the GSC, you're welcome to read, post, and participate fully if you're in complete
disagreement and post in complete opposition to most people-
so long as you don't post abusively, troll, or break rules common across the internet.
You can even play the games in the Reading Room indefinitely.
The non-Christians on the GSC are a lot more "loving" in "unconditional" fashions
than twi innies are now, or ever were when in.
But of course, your diatribe didn't REALLY relate to the discussion as it stood,
nor should anyone expect it to....
John,
I know twi called mental health professionals all kinds of scummy things,
but please consider finding a Christian with a professional license and experience,
and seeing if you can derive some benefit from addressing unresolved issues
from your time in twi. You'd derive lasting benefit, even if you only resolved a
little. (In case you can't tell, this is sincere, legitimate advice, meant in the
hopes that a brother in Christ will consider it and take action on it, to his
own benefit.)
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johniam
Whatsamatter wordwolf. Can't sell your "class" either?
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