For once I have to agree with Satori, but maybe not for the same reasons.
The title of this thread insinuates that the person or persons being discussed actually have ambiguous genitalia, the biological condition having nothing to do with sexual orientation.
For once I have to agree with Satori, but maybe not for the same reasons.
The title of this thread insinuates that the person or persons being discussed actually have ambiguous genitalia, the biological condition having nothing to do with sexual orientation.
Anybody get an actual glimpse?
Hi Catcup,
"Her Holy Hermaphrodites" was not the original title of this thread. It was "Her Holy Dyk*ship"
There were objections to the term, and the title thread was changed.
I agree, though. It's kind of a misleading term.
Here's an alternate thread title: "Her Holy Ambiguous Whateverness"
And just for the record, I'm not terribly concerned about who is sleeping with whom. I'm more outraged about the hypocracy of it all. People's lives savaged and reputations viciously maligned (most of the time behind their backs) based on nothing more than "genuine spiritual suspicion", while those at the top lived evil continually.
Well, their day will (or already has) come. God is not mocked.
"Her Holy Hermaphrodites" was not the original title of this thread. It was "Her Holy Dyk*ship"
There were objections to the term, and the title thread was changed.
I agree, though. It's kind of a misleading term.
Here's an alternate thread title: "Her Holy Ambiguous Whateverness"
And just for the record, I'm not terribly concerned about who is sleeping with whom. I'm more outraged about the hypocracy of it all. People's lives savaged and reputations viciously maligned (most of the time behind their backs) based on nothing more than "genuine spiritual suspicion", while those at the top lived evil continually.
Well, their day will (or already has) come. God is not mocked.
For once I have to agree with Satori, but maybe not for the same reasons.
The title of this thread insinuates that the person or persons being discussed actually have ambiguous genitalia, the biological condition having nothing to do with sexual orientation.
Anybody get an actual glimpse?
A very reliable soruce told me that she walked into Rosie's quarters by mistake, While Rosie was undressed...and the answer that I received was "yes"...Rosie has both sets of genitalia and was indeed a hermaphrodite...Understand, that this is second hand information and I cannot personally verify it...but I trust this person and can see no reason why they would lie about such a thing.
Personally, I find the entire subject to be disgusting.
A very reliable soruce told me that she walked into Rosie's quarters by mistake, While Rosie was undressed...and the answer that I received was "yes"...Rosie has both sets of genitalia and was indeed a hermaphrodite...Understand, that this is second hand information and I cannot personally verify it...but I trust this person and can see no reason why they would lie about such a thing.
Personally, I find the entire subject to be disgusting.
Groucho
There are some basic concepts of physiology and hemaphodism that make this incident suspicious.
Sixty years ago(approximate age of party being discussed) the common medical remedy was to select one gender(female being the least surgically intensive) and alter the individual physically. At that time, very little was known or understood about "gender bias". In other words, even though you could cosmetically alter an individual to resemble a female, they could by virtue of DNA and gender bias, be male. Very confusing, to say the least, for someone who was actually a male to have their body altered to resemble a female. It did not go the other way very often because of the surgical difficulty involved.
My wife and I once knew a couple who had two children who were born with this condition.
They were physically altered to become girls shortly after birth. I don't know if they were ever tested for "gender bias"but I strongly suspect they were actually male because they have to maintain hormonal regimens to sustain female features.
They can not conceive or bear children.
Recently, there was medical news of an adult male who had lived a perfectly normal life as a male but in middle age began to experience abdominal pain. During exploratory surgery, it was discovered he had a complete (internal) female reproductive system.
Both these scenarios would seem to defy the logic of the person in question having this medical condition and bearing children of her own. As I understand, she does have at least one (adult) child.
If it were in fact true, it would shed a completely different light on the discussion because we would then be talking about a physical state of being and not an issue of sexual orientation.
Justing wondering why it's okay to talk of dead wierwille being gay, or have insicurities, but not The Living Fox?
A Ge-rge or a Lomb@rdi I could see being okay with this. But not a poster.
The Fox is a devil and deserves no defense.
It's okay to discuss Rivenbark, Bolshevik. Tell us then, is she "gay," or isn't she? And if so, why does it matter to anybody else?
The way I see it, being gay, or having "insecurities" are neither harmful nor hypocritical. They don't make you an evil cult leader. If you are an evil cult leader, and gay or insecure, AND you prey on others for being gay or insecure, that's where it gets interesting. That is why Vic Wierwille's sexual orientation and emotional state matter here. His hypocrisy is exposed, his credibility discredited.
28 And they took off his clothing, and put on him a red robe.
29 And they made a crown of thorns and put it on his head, and put a rod in his right hand, and they went down on their knees before him, and made sport of him, saying, Long life to the King of the Jews.
30 And they put shame on him...
What did Vic teach about that passage? Anybody remember?
Vic was conspicuously preoccupied with homosexuality, yet he persecuted homosexuals, even those suspected, even those accused of it by TWI's army of amateur "thought police."
--
Bolshevik, if you don't like "dykes," then start a thread about that, and you can also tie in your dislike of Rivenbark, and the rumors about her... Throw it all in. You'd better know what you're talking about, though.
You started a thread tltled "Her Holy Dykeship," as if you had plenty to contribute to the record, yet all you can manage in your initial post is to ask if anybody knows anything. It was SO lame a post, I found myself wondering if it was a setup, as a way to get someone to post remarks so over the top that lawyers get involved. It wouldn't be the first time somebody from TWI masqueraded as a sympathetic ex-wayfer to undermine a site.
--
As for the present title, it is an unskilled but sincere attempt to keep a sense of the original while removing offense. Like so much else, it is what it is. The fault is yours, not the moderator's, for providing so little to begin with.
For the record, RFR was a big behind-the-scenes player in much of LCM's ministry - including the "homo-hunt". She had always had the Presidents' ear (yes, president is meant to be plural there.) She had more ways and means for getting rid of people who got in her way than you could possibly imagine. There's been many accounts here on GSC about this and I can attest to some personal dealings with her that I've been told about by others. She is ruthless and calculating - she knows how to go for blood.
As someone who's life was turned upside down in a matter of hours due to the policy they practiced on some but not all with the homo hunt, I can tell you that it is - to this day - hypocrisy at it's finest. My ex-husband was kicked out for his "thinking" - not anything more - certainly nothing to the extent of what these people have done or appear to have done.
For the record, RFR had two women living in her basement who shared a bed - not just a bedroom and had exchanged rings during a key year (like a tenth anniversary) that they knew each other. I've had a couple of my closest friends now for over thirty years - I've NEVER exchanged rings with any of them, thankyouverymuch. RFR vacations with DM exclusively. They share a bedroom with one bed in it. These are key examples - I'm sure you, if you take the time to weed through some of these threads around here, will find more posted by some key players who were *there* and have firsthand accounts.
C'mon people! Do the math!
Anyone else who practiced something like this would have gotten the boot YEARS ago just for being a homo-sympathizer - never mind being suspected of the actual practice. What's the verse about "give no appearance of evil" ? DM and RFR, and some of their "buddies" certainly don't give the impression of being straight - especially with some of the practices they're known for. But would anyone ever confront them on this? NO WAY - you wouldn't go to Henry The XIII to tell him not to divorce his wife, would you? RFR would have YOUR head on the chopping block so quickly....
This thread is very relevant - this practice is still used by TWI and yet the highest level of leadership even gives the appearance of being homosexual in her private life and housed a couple who were, without a doubt, practicing it in their own lives. I don't see it as a homophobic thread - I have seen no posts where people make sweeping statements slandering the general population of lesbians and gay men - read the thread. Personally, I don't care what someone does in their bedroom - I DO care when they have a say in my life about what happens in my life and then practice just the OPPOSITE. Then, it's my business - you bet!
By the way, I also liked the original title better. The definition varies, if you look it up, the more modern definition of the word includes women who have sex not just with women, but would include men. A woman who has sex with women, exclusively, is a lesbian. The word dyke used to be used in a medical (anatomical) sense to talk about the vulva. If you prefer, we could call them "lipstick lesbians" - is that less offensive? I could break out the George Carlin dictionary of slang for you, if you wish...
Very good. Let's keep speculation in one category, and what we've seen and heard in another category.
It's important for people to know who "mans" the helm at TWI. That is much different than name-calling. The thread's original title, and the opening post, were little more than the latter.
Very good. Let's keep speculation in one category, and what we've seen and heard in another category.
It's important for people to know who "mans" the helm at TWI. That is much different than name-calling. The thread's original title, and the opening post, were little more than the latter.
Your not making any sense.
But I do need to apologize to you for taking my anger for RFR out on you. Sorry.
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waysider
Personally, I couldn't care less who they do the humpty dance with.
I am quite interested, however, in how they reconcile said behaviour with doctrines and tenets of TWI that have long been firmly established.
That discussion, of course, would have to hinge on whether or not there is any truth to the rumours.
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J0nny Ling0
That, of course, is the paramount question. Unless of course the "integrity of the Word" is no longer at stake......
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satori001
Bolshevik,
If by quoting those two posts you believe you've demonstrated some great inconsistency, you haven't.
If you'd like to go into it further, I'll be back in about a week.
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Catcup
For once I have to agree with Satori, but maybe not for the same reasons.
The title of this thread insinuates that the person or persons being discussed actually have ambiguous genitalia, the biological condition having nothing to do with sexual orientation.
Anybody get an actual glimpse?
Edited by CatcupLink to comment
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Kevlar2000
Hi Catcup,
"Her Holy Hermaphrodites" was not the original title of this thread. It was "Her Holy Dyk*ship"
There were objections to the term, and the title thread was changed.
I agree, though. It's kind of a misleading term.
Here's an alternate thread title: "Her Holy Ambiguous Whateverness"
And just for the record, I'm not terribly concerned about who is sleeping with whom. I'm more outraged about the hypocracy of it all. People's lives savaged and reputations viciously maligned (most of the time behind their backs) based on nothing more than "genuine spiritual suspicion", while those at the top lived evil continually.
Well, their day will (or already has) come. God is not mocked.
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Bolshevik
Justing wondering why it's okay to talk of dead wierwille being gay, or have insicurities, but not The Living Fox?
A Ge-rge or a Lomb@rdi I could see being okay with this. But not a poster.
The Fox is a devil and deserves no defense.
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Catcup
I like it better in the original.
Carry on...
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GrouchoMarxJr
A very reliable soruce told me that she walked into Rosie's quarters by mistake, While Rosie was undressed...and the answer that I received was "yes"...Rosie has both sets of genitalia and was indeed a hermaphrodite...Understand, that this is second hand information and I cannot personally verify it...but I trust this person and can see no reason why they would lie about such a thing.
Personally, I find the entire subject to be disgusting.
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waysider
Groucho
There are some basic concepts of physiology and hemaphodism that make this incident suspicious.
Sixty years ago(approximate age of party being discussed) the common medical remedy was to select one gender(female being the least surgically intensive) and alter the individual physically. At that time, very little was known or understood about "gender bias". In other words, even though you could cosmetically alter an individual to resemble a female, they could by virtue of DNA and gender bias, be male. Very confusing, to say the least, for someone who was actually a male to have their body altered to resemble a female. It did not go the other way very often because of the surgical difficulty involved.
My wife and I once knew a couple who had two children who were born with this condition.
They were physically altered to become girls shortly after birth. I don't know if they were ever tested for "gender bias"but I strongly suspect they were actually male because they have to maintain hormonal regimens to sustain female features.
They can not conceive or bear children.
Recently, there was medical news of an adult male who had lived a perfectly normal life as a male but in middle age began to experience abdominal pain. During exploratory surgery, it was discovered he had a complete (internal) female reproductive system.
Both these scenarios would seem to defy the logic of the person in question having this medical condition and bearing children of her own. As I understand, she does have at least one (adult) child.
If it were in fact true, it would shed a completely different light on the discussion because we would then be talking about a physical state of being and not an issue of sexual orientation.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Rats!...Another rumor shot to hell.
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satori001
It's okay to discuss Rivenbark, Bolshevik. Tell us then, is she "gay," or isn't she? And if so, why does it matter to anybody else?
The way I see it, being gay, or having "insecurities" are neither harmful nor hypocritical. They don't make you an evil cult leader. If you are an evil cult leader, and gay or insecure, AND you prey on others for being gay or insecure, that's where it gets interesting. That is why Vic Wierwille's sexual orientation and emotional state matter here. His hypocrisy is exposed, his credibility discredited.
What did Vic teach about that passage? Anybody remember?
Vic was conspicuously preoccupied with homosexuality, yet he persecuted homosexuals, even those suspected, even those accused of it by TWI's army of amateur "thought police."
--
Bolshevik, if you don't like "dykes," then start a thread about that, and you can also tie in your dislike of Rivenbark, and the rumors about her... Throw it all in. You'd better know what you're talking about, though.
You started a thread tltled "Her Holy Dykeship," as if you had plenty to contribute to the record, yet all you can manage in your initial post is to ask if anybody knows anything. It was SO lame a post, I found myself wondering if it was a setup, as a way to get someone to post remarks so over the top that lawyers get involved. It wouldn't be the first time somebody from TWI masqueraded as a sympathetic ex-wayfer to undermine a site.
--
As for the present title, it is an unskilled but sincere attempt to keep a sense of the original while removing offense. Like so much else, it is what it is. The fault is yours, not the moderator's, for providing so little to begin with.
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WordWolf
Actually, one amazing thing I found, when I was REQUESTING personal accounts of
each of the ex-twi presidents (including rfr),
was that some people did have pleasant recollections of vpw, at least some of the time,
and some people did have pleasant recollections of lcm, at least some of the time,
but NOBODY had a single positive memory of rfr to add to the discussions.
EVERYBODY who interacted with her personally had bad things to say about her,
without a single exception to toss into the mix.
Of course, those who know anything about her would need to be limited to staff/ex-staff,
and those "in" from about 2000 on.
Most posters dont fit in either category, and not everyone who does has something to
recall about her.
Me,
I'm waiting for the announcement that she's received twi's standard treatment-
that is, that she's been kicked out with no means of support because she's too old
to be of use. It's gone around; I'm waiting for it to come around....
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ChasUFarley
For the record, RFR was a big behind-the-scenes player in much of LCM's ministry - including the "homo-hunt". She had always had the Presidents' ear (yes, president is meant to be plural there.) She had more ways and means for getting rid of people who got in her way than you could possibly imagine. There's been many accounts here on GSC about this and I can attest to some personal dealings with her that I've been told about by others. She is ruthless and calculating - she knows how to go for blood.
As someone who's life was turned upside down in a matter of hours due to the policy they practiced on some but not all with the homo hunt, I can tell you that it is - to this day - hypocrisy at it's finest. My ex-husband was kicked out for his "thinking" - not anything more - certainly nothing to the extent of what these people have done or appear to have done.
For the record, RFR had two women living in her basement who shared a bed - not just a bedroom and had exchanged rings during a key year (like a tenth anniversary) that they knew each other. I've had a couple of my closest friends now for over thirty years - I've NEVER exchanged rings with any of them, thankyouverymuch. RFR vacations with DM exclusively. They share a bedroom with one bed in it. These are key examples - I'm sure you, if you take the time to weed through some of these threads around here, will find more posted by some key players who were *there* and have firsthand accounts.
C'mon people! Do the math!
Anyone else who practiced something like this would have gotten the boot YEARS ago just for being a homo-sympathizer - never mind being suspected of the actual practice. What's the verse about "give no appearance of evil" ? DM and RFR, and some of their "buddies" certainly don't give the impression of being straight - especially with some of the practices they're known for. But would anyone ever confront them on this? NO WAY - you wouldn't go to Henry The XIII to tell him not to divorce his wife, would you? RFR would have YOUR head on the chopping block so quickly....
This thread is very relevant - this practice is still used by TWI and yet the highest level of leadership even gives the appearance of being homosexual in her private life and housed a couple who were, without a doubt, practicing it in their own lives. I don't see it as a homophobic thread - I have seen no posts where people make sweeping statements slandering the general population of lesbians and gay men - read the thread. Personally, I don't care what someone does in their bedroom - I DO care when they have a say in my life about what happens in my life and then practice just the OPPOSITE. Then, it's my business - you bet!
By the way, I also liked the original title better. The definition varies, if you look it up, the more modern definition of the word includes women who have sex not just with women, but would include men. A woman who has sex with women, exclusively, is a lesbian. The word dyke used to be used in a medical (anatomical) sense to talk about the vulva. If you prefer, we could call them "lipstick lesbians" - is that less offensive? I could break out the George Carlin dictionary of slang for you, if you wish...
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satori001
Very good. Let's keep speculation in one category, and what we've seen and heard in another category.
It's important for people to know who "mans" the helm at TWI. That is much different than name-calling. The thread's original title, and the opening post, were little more than the latter.
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Bolshevik
Your not making any sense.
But I do need to apologize to you for taking my anger for RFR out on you. Sorry.
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