Considering he has been the self-appointed moderator of this thread, no, I suppose I don't appreciate his attempt at humor in the last post. But thanks for pointing it out.
Just tryin' to help a damsel in distress. I don't expect a kiss, either. I consider it a public service.
OK-----Here is what I remembr from the CF&S class.(circa:1973 to 1975)
VPW taught that the original sin was not only masturbation, but the physical consumption of the byproduct.
(Thus, the "eating of the tree of life".)
I saw this segment so many times, I can still see him swiping his two middle fingers on his right hand across the relevant anatomical area and raising them to his mouth whereupon he feigned a "lick" and looked straight at the camera with a smirk on his face. I'm not trying to evoke shock value. I am simply stating what I remembr just as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. He did not teach that this had any homosexual implications.
As to the homosexual aspect:
In the Advanced Class (1973), VP stated on page 19 of the syllabus, in section e.(2), that a born again saved believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or posses mind and/ or body, but not the spirit.
( it just occurred to me as I typed this that VPW was adamant about calling devil spirits "devil spirits" and not demons or evil spirits. This whole page defies his typical vocabulary.)
On page 21 he lists 19 examples of spirits affecting the mind.
Example #15 is Lesbian spirit and #16 is Homosexual spirit as well as example #9 which is Sadistic spirit( Sexual maniac / hurtful to other people)
Now, does this prove whether this person or that is homosexual?-----NO.
It does illustrate quite clearly,though, that TWI took a very defined stance on the subject being discussed as early as the 1970's.
OK-----Here is what I remembr from the CF&S class.(circa:1973 to 1975)
VPW taught that the original sin was not only masturbation, but the physical consumption of the byproduct.
(Thus, the "eating of the tree of life".)
I saw this segment so many times, I can still see him swiping his two middle fingers on his right hand across the relevant anatomical area and raising them to his mouth whereupon he feigned a "lick" and looked straight at the camera with a smirk on his face. I'm not trying to evoke shock value. I am simply stating what I remembr just as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. He did not teach that this had any homosexual implications.
As to the homosexual aspect:
In the Advanced Class (1973), VP stated on page 19 of the syllabus, in section e.(2), that a born again saved believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or posses mind and/ or body, but not the spirit.
( it just occurred to me as I typed this that VPW was adamant about calling devil spirits "devil spirits" and not demons or evil spirits. This whole page defies his typical vocabulary.)
On page 21 he lists 19 examples of spirits affecting the mind.
Example #15 is Lesbian spirit and #16 is Homosexual spirit as well as example #9 which is Sadistic spirit( Sexual maniac / hurtful to other people)
Now, does this prove whether this person or that is homosexual?-----NO.
It does illustrate quite clearly,though, that TWI took a very defined stance on the subject being discussed as early as the 1970's.
I took the CFS class 1977. I dont' have a photographic memory but I don't remember (and I took it several times after that and into the '80s) the swipe and the eating of....*gross* I don't doubt it was in there and the class could have been modified after you saw it. It wouldn't be the first time TWI did that as I remember specifically and plainly that the PFAL book and the RHST book that I got early Jan 1976 said that soul life started when sperm fertilized the egg, that was taught in conjunction to the conception of Jesus Christ. It was a question on the home study lessons we had to do, send it to be marked and get a completed card from our instructor sent to HQ to be filed as it was a requirement for the Advanced Class.
I don't remember that much time spent on homosexuality either, but that is where I had to have learned it all. I remember that the original sin was masturbation. As someone else mentioned I remember seeing pics of different shapes of penises, bottle shaped stands out to me, pics of different shaped breasts and VP standing with a pointer pointing to them, declaring how beautiful they were to the point it was a general whispered consesus that VP was a breast man, a picture of a woman masturbating nakee using the edge of her bed, a couple in
'after glow' and the wrangling how the original sin was not truly a sin nowadays and the body is the body and parts is parts, and how we should not have any more embarrassement towards our private parts then we would our ears.
Then there was the question answer period that left us mostly in the dark and free to interpret the answers or non answers given by VP to the young adults on the film about is having sex okay?
But you are right, it was early early TWI that it was believed that homosexuals were possesed. I got involved in 1975, it was shared then and another female that I became best of friends, who has since passed away, got involved much earlier with TWI then I did. She had a brother who was homosexual and some darling of a TWI believer got in her face and told her that her brother was possessed. My friend flipped out with news like that, when she was new to the ministry and the believer who dropped the bomb shell got reamed. So maybe the only difference between then and now was or is, today it is okay to go for someone's jugular like that while way back when, they actually cared how their doctrine was shared with others so that people would not get hurt.
OK-----Here is what I remembr from the CF&S class.(circa:1973 to 1975)
VPW taught that the original sin was not only masturbation, but the physical consumption of the byproduct.
(Thus, the "eating of the tree of life".)
Call me immature, but eeeewwwwee :huh:
I can still see him swiping his two middle fingers on his right hand across the relevant anatomical area and raising them to his mouth whereupon he feigned a "lick" and looked straight at the camera with a smirk on his face.
It's amazing (maybe not really) of how many sexual connotations or spins TWI put on interpreting the Bible. That should be an interesting thread in itself.
So not only would anyone just pinpoint how and when TWI took a stand, a vehement stand against homosexuality, but do an over head view of how many instances TWI saw sexual activity in scriptures as compared to organized religion.
And then to be sooooooooo graphic about it as well. That is just beyond disgusting. It is lewd and perverted, eating one's own errrr 'love juice.' I mean between couples, that is their business but for any man, any man of the cloth so to speak to do that in front of a camera and call himself Christian...it is beyond being acceptable behavior. Can you imagine letting your teenage child sit through that and see it? I don't remember it, so if it was still in the class, I am glad my thresh hold of perception was so high, it sailed right over my head.
I don't see this as just being a matter of not believing in homosexuality but rather an overall pathology of reading one's own pathology, sickness into the scriptures and that should be a point to make of an over all pattern of TWI; perverting the scriptures. I mean, it's NOT normal!!
Eve and Adam masturbating
Eve being a lesbian
Ishamel and Issac
Joseph taking his wife Mary unto him in his house--JL taught it meant he took her in sex
Jesus being raped by the soliders
Christian Family and Sex class--looking at pics of breasts and penises didn't train me to become a better Christian wife in the future
It's amazing (maybe not really) of how many sexual connotations or spins TWI put on interpreting the Bible. That should be an interesting thread in itself.
Anything else?
The biggest thing was where they took the sexual conotation out .. I think ... Adultery
I'm not sure it was ever "officially" taught, but the word was that VP said the Bible was referring to spiritual adultery. Whereas while God would choose the breaking of the physical bond between man and wife to express His disdain for idolatry, God really thought adultery was OK, if you were spiritual enough. Of course it was convenient to keep that insight closely held among those fellow adulterers and victims.
It's amazing (maybe not really) of how many sexual connotations or spins TWI put on interpreting the Bible. That should be an interesting thread in itself.
So not only would anyone just pinpoint how and when TWI took a stand, a vehement stand against homosexuality, but do an over head view of how many instances TWI saw sexual activity in scriptures as compared to organized religion.
(snip)
I don't see this as just being a matter of not believing in homosexuality but rather an overall pathology of reading one's own pathology, sickness into the scriptures and that should be a point to make of an over all pattern of TWI; perverting the scriptures. I mean, it's NOT normal!!
Eve and Adam masturbating
Eve being a lesbian
Ishamel and Issac
Joseph taking his wife Mary unto him in his house--JL taught it meant he took her in sex
Jesus being raped by the soliders
Christian Family and Sex class--looking at pics of breasts and penises didn't train me to become a better Christian wife in the future
Anything else?
Yes-
besides saying the Roman soldiers raped/molested Jesus,
they said the Philistines raped/molested Samson,
and that the oath of swearing on the thigh meant grabbing the guy's eh- "family jewels".
A while back, I got a bee in my bonnet about those, and started threads on them.
Thank you for the links, Word Wolf, and you raise very good questions about what it is indicative of...I think it goes hand in hand with the body parts is parts in CF&S class--another desensitizing issue--and for the benefit of ________?
I had forgotten about that thigh swearing/family jewels thing. I remember reading/hearing about it for the first time way back when, I don't remember if it was a Wag Mag article or a Sunday night teaching tape, I just know it creeped me out.
I felt sorry for the children who sat to CF&S. I remember one 13 year old girl being extremely embarrassed and uncomfortable when the picture of the big erect penis came up. I think that was terrible. And a lot of parents thought they were educating their children well by making them take that class. It was not a good class IMHO. Why teach your kids slang words for sex and body parts?? I would think a parent would want to represent the lovely side of sex, not the raunchy.
I can remember hearing in formal presentations(ie: taped classes, Advanced Class, etc.) that The Word is multi-leveled in its connotations. This was used as part of illustrating the meaning of Hebrews 5:12-14 where the comparison is made between "milk" for the unskilled babe and "meat" for those of full age who could discern both good and evil. There was much encouragement to go beyond the "milk" and seek the "meat" of the Word.
There was also a feeling of smuggness( for lack of a better word) when one felt that they saw a "deeper" meaning in a section of scripture. After all, who wanted to think of themself as a " babe" in the Word when others around them seemed to be growing up?
This was especially true,IMO, in dealing with scripture that related to adultery. When one heard VPW ( or any one of a number of other high level personnel) teach that the greater meaning of adultery was of a spiritual nature(and it WAS taught that way quite often) it gave the hearer a feeling of having reached some new level of spiritual understanding. This feeling of having some inside track on spiritual matters is where the gist of the issue lies not just relating to adultery but any number of other topics.
VPW went even further with this concept and used it to drive home the point that (according to him) the Trinity was actually spiritual idolatry (and spiritual adultery) and accepting it as so was a sign of spiritual growth. Again, who didn't want to feel like their spiritual understanding was being enlarged?
As to children in CF&S, I saw many under-aged students in this class, including a family member.
In today's society, there are many who would look on that sort of particpation as child endangerment and felonious.
Yes the CF&S class (lcm's version) really messed with my head. (I think I mentioned this on another thread) The whole, teenage sex depends on the parents? So I could start arguing with my parents for approval or something?
It raised more questions in my head than providing answers.
What an interested trend here.I was never involved in the way had a relitive who was. To make a long story short We don't talk anymore.As an outside looking in. I never head of eve having lesbian sex. or homosexual spirts that is the work of the devil thats a new one. I don't know if a person is born gay or it is something learned. that is the subject of another topic. This ex-presedent martindale does not sound like a kind a compassionate minster to me. If he wanted to help get rid of these evil spirts .Pardon me for mocking why not perform an exorcism on these evil spirts?
What an interested trend here.I was never involved in the way had a relitive who was. To make a long story short We don't talk anymore.As an outside looking in. I never head of eve having lesbian sex. or homosexual spirts that is the work of the devil thats a new one. I don't know if a person is born gay or it is something learned. that is the subject of another topic. This ex-presedent martindale does not sound like a kind a compassionate minster to me. If he wanted to help get rid of these evil spirts .Pardon me for mocking why not perform an exorcism on these evil spirts?
Because LCM and VP would have been the ones to disappear into thin air if they tried chasing it away *joke*
For all their talk of deliverance, it was merely that, talk.
What an interested trend here.I was never involved in the way had a relitive who was. To make a long story short We don't talk anymore.As an outside looking in. I never head of eve having lesbian sex. or homosexual spirts that is the work of the devil thats a new one. I don't know if a person is born gay or it is something learned. that is the subject of another topic. This ex-presedent martindale does not sound like a kind a compassionate minster to me. If he wanted to help get rid of these evil spirts .Pardon me for mocking why not perform an exorcism on these evil spirts?
I don't consider your question to be "mocking" at all.
It deserves an honest answer. I will try to do that, although, I am only speaking for myself and don't presume my answer to be any "voice of expertise".
What you are calling "exorcism" would be somewhat parallel to what The Way called" casting out devil spirits".
There was a protocol of sorts that had to be followed in order to do this.
Step one involved knowledge of the spirits' presence. This came by virtue of a type of Divine revelation known as " discerning of spirits". This was to be used in conjunction with two other types of revelation called "word of knowledge" and "word of wisdom"( which is what to do with the d.o.s. and w.o.k.) Absence of these factors prohibited the process.
Furthermore, it was taught that, unless a person subsequently made changes in their thinking and actions after the casting out, the devil spirit would return and bring even more spirits along with it. Thus, supposedly having knowledge that someone was "posessed was not an automatic license to cast out the spirit/spirits.
I am stating the above as a matter recall and not as a matter of judgement of the process or particpants.
Hope that helps.
This is why it becomes a critical issue if, in fact, a leader who represents credibilty, is found to be living a life that is, by the Way's own standards, one of Devil spirit influence
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satori001
Just tryin' to help a damsel in distress. I don't expect a kiss, either. I consider it a public service.
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excathedra
now THERE'S a word i haven't heard in a long time
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dmiller
Which?? Clearly??
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excathedra
blurts
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Eyesopen
Ok you really have to back up and read the context before you read "blurts"
Either that or someone is smoking wacky weed too close to my house again. :unsure:
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waysider
OK-----Here is what I remembr from the CF&S class.(circa:1973 to 1975)
VPW taught that the original sin was not only masturbation, but the physical consumption of the byproduct.
(Thus, the "eating of the tree of life".)
I saw this segment so many times, I can still see him swiping his two middle fingers on his right hand across the relevant anatomical area and raising them to his mouth whereupon he feigned a "lick" and looked straight at the camera with a smirk on his face. I'm not trying to evoke shock value. I am simply stating what I remembr just as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. He did not teach that this had any homosexual implications.
As to the homosexual aspect:
In the Advanced Class (1973), VP stated on page 19 of the syllabus, in section e.(2), that a born again saved believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or posses mind and/ or body, but not the spirit.
( it just occurred to me as I typed this that VPW was adamant about calling devil spirits "devil spirits" and not demons or evil spirits. This whole page defies his typical vocabulary.)
On page 21 he lists 19 examples of spirits affecting the mind.
Example #15 is Lesbian spirit and #16 is Homosexual spirit as well as example #9 which is Sadistic spirit( Sexual maniac / hurtful to other people)
Now, does this prove whether this person or that is homosexual?-----NO.
It does illustrate quite clearly,though, that TWI took a very defined stance on the subject being discussed as early as the 1970's.
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Belle
Eyes, if you want the actual pages from the syllabus, PM me. I'll mail, fax, or scan them to send to you.
And.... thanks for the compliment.
Satori, this damsel can take care of herself rather nicely, thanks though. ^_^
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FullCircle
I took the CFS class 1977. I dont' have a photographic memory but I don't remember (and I took it several times after that and into the '80s) the swipe and the eating of....*gross* I don't doubt it was in there and the class could have been modified after you saw it. It wouldn't be the first time TWI did that as I remember specifically and plainly that the PFAL book and the RHST book that I got early Jan 1976 said that soul life started when sperm fertilized the egg, that was taught in conjunction to the conception of Jesus Christ. It was a question on the home study lessons we had to do, send it to be marked and get a completed card from our instructor sent to HQ to be filed as it was a requirement for the Advanced Class.
I don't remember that much time spent on homosexuality either, but that is where I had to have learned it all. I remember that the original sin was masturbation. As someone else mentioned I remember seeing pics of different shapes of penises, bottle shaped stands out to me, pics of different shaped breasts and VP standing with a pointer pointing to them, declaring how beautiful they were to the point it was a general whispered consesus that VP was a breast man, a picture of a woman masturbating nakee using the edge of her bed, a couple in
'after glow' and the wrangling how the original sin was not truly a sin nowadays and the body is the body and parts is parts, and how we should not have any more embarrassement towards our private parts then we would our ears.
Then there was the question answer period that left us mostly in the dark and free to interpret the answers or non answers given by VP to the young adults on the film about is having sex okay?
But you are right, it was early early TWI that it was believed that homosexuals were possesed. I got involved in 1975, it was shared then and another female that I became best of friends, who has since passed away, got involved much earlier with TWI then I did. She had a brother who was homosexual and some darling of a TWI believer got in her face and told her that her brother was possessed. My friend flipped out with news like that, when she was new to the ministry and the believer who dropped the bomb shell got reamed. So maybe the only difference between then and now was or is, today it is okay to go for someone's jugular like that while way back when, they actually cared how their doctrine was shared with others so that people would not get hurt.
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Bolshevik
Call me immature, but eeeewwwwee :huh:
A little creepy
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ChasUFarley
Man, if Eve was alive she could sue for slander...
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Eyesopen
That would be after she puked! Eeeeeuuuu!!!
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Bolshevik
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FullCircle
It's amazing (maybe not really) of how many sexual connotations or spins TWI put on interpreting the Bible. That should be an interesting thread in itself.
So not only would anyone just pinpoint how and when TWI took a stand, a vehement stand against homosexuality, but do an over head view of how many instances TWI saw sexual activity in scriptures as compared to organized religion.
And then to be sooooooooo graphic about it as well. That is just beyond disgusting. It is lewd and perverted, eating one's own errrr 'love juice.' I mean between couples, that is their business but for any man, any man of the cloth so to speak to do that in front of a camera and call himself Christian...it is beyond being acceptable behavior. Can you imagine letting your teenage child sit through that and see it? I don't remember it, so if it was still in the class, I am glad my thresh hold of perception was so high, it sailed right over my head.
I don't see this as just being a matter of not believing in homosexuality but rather an overall pathology of reading one's own pathology, sickness into the scriptures and that should be a point to make of an over all pattern of TWI; perverting the scriptures. I mean, it's NOT normal!!
Eve and Adam masturbating
Eve being a lesbian
Ishamel and Issac
Joseph taking his wife Mary unto him in his house--JL taught it meant he took her in sex
Jesus being raped by the soliders
Christian Family and Sex class--looking at pics of breasts and penises didn't train me to become a better Christian wife in the future
Anything else?
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rhino
The biggest thing was where they took the sexual conotation out .. I think ... Adultery
I'm not sure it was ever "officially" taught, but the word was that VP said the Bible was referring to spiritual adultery. Whereas while God would choose the breaking of the physical bond between man and wife to express His disdain for idolatry, God really thought adultery was OK, if you were spiritual enough. Of course it was convenient to keep that insight closely held among those fellow adulterers and victims.
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WordWolf
Yes-
besides saying the Roman soldiers raped/molested Jesus,
they said the Philistines raped/molested Samson,
and that the oath of swearing on the thigh meant grabbing the guy's eh- "family jewels".
A while back, I got a bee in my bonnet about those, and started threads on them.
"Oath-hand under thigh" was discussed here:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=243557
"Were Samson and Jesus molested" was discussed here:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=243931
Something I'd like to point out here is that when some posters questioned why some of us cared
enough to give our best attempt to learn what the Bible ACTUALLY said on the subjects,
I said the following, after my general comments about finding answers:
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FullCircle
Thank you for the links, Word Wolf, and you raise very good questions about what it is indicative of...I think it goes hand in hand with the body parts is parts in CF&S class--another desensitizing issue--and for the benefit of ________?
I had forgotten about that thigh swearing/family jewels thing. I remember reading/hearing about it for the first time way back when, I don't remember if it was a Wag Mag article or a Sunday night teaching tape, I just know it creeped me out.
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Nottawayfer
I felt sorry for the children who sat to CF&S. I remember one 13 year old girl being extremely embarrassed and uncomfortable when the picture of the big erect penis came up. I think that was terrible. And a lot of parents thought they were educating their children well by making them take that class. It was not a good class IMHO. Why teach your kids slang words for sex and body parts?? I would think a parent would want to represent the lovely side of sex, not the raunchy.
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waysider
I can remember hearing in formal presentations(ie: taped classes, Advanced Class, etc.) that The Word is multi-leveled in its connotations. This was used as part of illustrating the meaning of Hebrews 5:12-14 where the comparison is made between "milk" for the unskilled babe and "meat" for those of full age who could discern both good and evil. There was much encouragement to go beyond the "milk" and seek the "meat" of the Word.
There was also a feeling of smuggness( for lack of a better word) when one felt that they saw a "deeper" meaning in a section of scripture. After all, who wanted to think of themself as a " babe" in the Word when others around them seemed to be growing up?
This was especially true,IMO, in dealing with scripture that related to adultery. When one heard VPW ( or any one of a number of other high level personnel) teach that the greater meaning of adultery was of a spiritual nature(and it WAS taught that way quite often) it gave the hearer a feeling of having reached some new level of spiritual understanding. This feeling of having some inside track on spiritual matters is where the gist of the issue lies not just relating to adultery but any number of other topics.
VPW went even further with this concept and used it to drive home the point that (according to him) the Trinity was actually spiritual idolatry (and spiritual adultery) and accepting it as so was a sign of spiritual growth. Again, who didn't want to feel like their spiritual understanding was being enlarged?
As to children in CF&S, I saw many under-aged students in this class, including a family member.
In today's society, there are many who would look on that sort of particpation as child endangerment and felonious.
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Bolshevik
Yes the CF&S class (lcm's version) really messed with my head. (I think I mentioned this on another thread) The whole, teenage sex depends on the parents? So I could start arguing with my parents for approval or something?
It raised more questions in my head than providing answers.
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nyunknown
What an interested trend here.I was never involved in the way had a relitive who was. To make a long story short We don't talk anymore.As an outside looking in. I never head of eve having lesbian sex. or homosexual spirts that is the work of the devil thats a new one. I don't know if a person is born gay or it is something learned. that is the subject of another topic. This ex-presedent martindale does not sound like a kind a compassionate minster to me. If he wanted to help get rid of these evil spirts .Pardon me for mocking why not perform an exorcism on these evil spirts?
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FullCircle
Because LCM and VP would have been the ones to disappear into thin air if they tried chasing it away *joke*
For all their talk of deliverance, it was merely that, talk.
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nyunknown
Good one!
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waysider
I don't consider your question to be "mocking" at all.
It deserves an honest answer. I will try to do that, although, I am only speaking for myself and don't presume my answer to be any "voice of expertise".
What you are calling "exorcism" would be somewhat parallel to what The Way called" casting out devil spirits".
There was a protocol of sorts that had to be followed in order to do this.
Step one involved knowledge of the spirits' presence. This came by virtue of a type of Divine revelation known as " discerning of spirits". This was to be used in conjunction with two other types of revelation called "word of knowledge" and "word of wisdom"( which is what to do with the d.o.s. and w.o.k.) Absence of these factors prohibited the process.
Furthermore, it was taught that, unless a person subsequently made changes in their thinking and actions after the casting out, the devil spirit would return and bring even more spirits along with it. Thus, supposedly having knowledge that someone was "posessed was not an automatic license to cast out the spirit/spirits.
I am stating the above as a matter recall and not as a matter of judgement of the process or particpants.
Hope that helps.
This is why it becomes a critical issue if, in fact, a leader who represents credibilty, is found to be living a life that is, by the Way's own standards, one of Devil spirit influence
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excathedra
veepee didn't know anything about a lovely side
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