Belle wrote: "It's been widely reported by very reputable posters that there was a contingency of 6th corps women who slept together and that there was a problem with Donna and Bill Green*'s wife sleeping together all the time."
Belle -
I was in the Sickth Corps. I never heard or saw any contincency of women sleeping together sexually (if that was the implication in your post). When Sunny S*nd*rs was the women's Corps Coordinator, she did have small groups of us over to her dorm for slumber parties. We made popcorn, told stories, and "shared hearts". Sunny was an amazing person and it is something I won't forget. I wonder what happened to her... but that's another topic.
Mrs. Green was in the 5th Corps - perhaps that's what you mean.
Regarding Donna, I do recall this...
One night during our last year, when we were getting ready to graduate, VP and Loy met with the men, and the next night VP and Donna met with the women. I believe I'm remembering this correctly...
We were discussing love and marriage -- LCM & Donna had only been married for about a year then. Lots of women were asking bs questions about "corps marrying corps" and "how do you know if it's the right man", etc.
I don't recall how it came up, but Donna shared about a time that she went to VP to talk to him about her feelings for other women. If my memory serves me right, she was concerned because she felt like she loved her women friends too much - that she wanted to spend time with them -- she was worried that she might be a lesbian (and I really think she used the "L-Word"). VP's reply to her was something like "honey, you have a big heart and a so much love to give to people -- you're misinterpreting your love for something sexual... but it's not - you just love people so much you feel like you're gonna burst!" I remember DM saying she was relieved when he told her that.
Then she went on to tell us how VP fixed her up with LCM ... and they lived happily (???) ever after.
Years later, when I started hearing the rumors about DM & RFR, I thought of that night - so I wasn't really surprised by it.
Up until then, it never crossed my mind - but after hearing it - it sorta made sense. No, there's no proof - no eyewitnesses (ugh). No one has photos or video tapes. It's all a matter of perception... like sudo said... if it looks like a duck...
What makes me angry and disgusts me is all the anti rhetoric against anyone who was homosexual while in TWI. I remember years and years before they started the 'homo purge' (TWI's words) how TWI was very anti gay/homosexual whatever.
The Heart Magazine (do you remember that) once wore a cover of Uncle Sam made up horrendously and with long painted finger nails under the banner of a title "The Queering of America." I remember how TWI taught (and I found out many funadmentalist churches as well) it was the lowest of the low to be gay, lower than a murderer and it was all the result of idolatry.
I can't imagine what it would have been like to even suspect you had tendencies in that direction nevertheless to be gay/homosexual. (I don't know what the right word here is to use w/o being offensive) I can't imagine the anguish, the fear and the condemnation of thinking you were possessed because of the doctrine of TWI.
Sometime during 1995 I thought I had missed the ministry after being out for five years so I called up HQ and got a phone number for a local fellowship. I never went, I overcame that laspe of judgment but I got a letter from HQ, I think it was from HA about the WOW program being cancelled or something like that and the reasoning was because of 'homos.' Their words. The letter was so ill, the content was so ill, and I saw plainly a really lame and sad attempt to lay all the blame of the ministries problems solely on those who were gay/homosexual. It was disgusting.
To put out that much fear, to put out that much condemnation, to do that much damage to people's lives in purging the ministry of those who had alternative lifestyles and to accuse them of being possessed, but not only them but anyone who had NO problems with them or could or would be sympathetic to people who were gay/homosexual, to break up their marriages (there's plenty of testimony of women who were not submissive being accused of having a lesbian spirit) ONLY to be practicing the same thing in private is beyond wrong, beyond being unethical and beyond understanding.
It would have been one thing if TWI believed their doctrine was true and they really meant it.
It was and is a totally different issue for them to cook up a scapegoat to lay all the problems on TWI on, knowing that they did not believe it to be wrong or devilish and had upper crust members doing the same thing.
If a person within a marriage finds themselves attracted to the same sex as themselves and has an affair with a same sex partner while married, it is STILL adultery. Being with the same sex partner doesn't NOT make it any less an affair or a betrayal of the marriage committment.
Okay GT, Martindale has been gone for a while, and it's obvious by those words that he is demented.
But that was not a public "teaching," and so it is not necessary that TWI publically repudiate them. Neither is it necessary for TWI to inform those of us who have left if they have changed that position.
Again, this thread is about Rivenbark. If TWI has gone to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy to cover for her, as long as they are consistent it is nobody's business. Should they be examined? Of course. Does Rivenbark deserve to be examined? Of course. That should be the result of this thread. What does she say and teach? How does she lead?
So, has the "homo purge" in all its ugly manifestations continued since the very sick Craig Martindale's bad behavior got him thrown out? However cynical and self-serving TWI's motives may have been, we need to be honest about other changes that have taken place, including that. If we aren't, then Greasespot's credibility will suffer, not just among the die-hard Wayfers, but everywhere.
How DOES Rivenbark's administration at TWI square with her personal life? Is she a sexual hypocrite, or isn't she? If she isn't, her own sex life should be off-limits.
I believe there is plenty of evidence that she is "rotten fruit from a rotten tree." But attacking her for Martindale's excesses will only gain her sympathy, and make Greasespot look bad.
Another question might be asked, "How did Rivenbark conduct herself during the homo purge?" Did she stand up for lesbians? Did she face down Martindale and confront him lovingly? Or did she lurk in the shadows until her chance to grab power? Has she discussed her own conduct THEN? Might be worth asking.
Does anybody see what I'm getting at here, or am I wasting my time?
Okay GT, Martindale has been gone for a while, and it's obvious by those words that he is demented.
But that was not a public "teaching," and so it is not necessary that TWI publically repudiate them. Neither is it necessary for TWI to inform those of us who have left if they have changed that position.
BULL ....!!!
There were MANY public teachings about homosexuality. MANY cases of people being ridiculed, demeaned, humiliated and worse PUBLICLY ACCUSED of being homosexuals. MANY letters sent out about particular individuals being kicked out because of "genuine spiritual suspicion" of them being homosexual. They've all been discussed here MANY times.
Satori, you've been here way too long to not know that. He11, the teachings from craig's foundational class and the original sin of mankind being Eve's lesbian encounter with satan has been discussed too many times to mention.
FURTHERMORE, these teachings have never been changed, corrected or taught as being wrong. The teachings and the doctrine still stands at TWI under Rivenbark's reign.
I believe there is plenty of evidence that she is "rotten fruit from a rotten tree." But attacking her for Martindale's excesses will only gain her sympathy, and make Greasespot look bad.
Another question might be asked, "How did Rivenbark conduct herself during the homo purge?" Did she stand up for lesbians? Did she face down Martindale and confront him lovingly? Or did she lurk in the shadows until her chance to grab power? Has she discussed her own conduct THEN? Might be worth asking.
Does anybody see what I'm getting at here, or am I wasting my time?
I see what you're getting at, but you need to get your facts straight before you start implying that we're making mountains out of molehills and dis-crediting Greasespot.
Facts are:
TWI (ALL the leaders in TWI) taught vehemently against homosexuality and claimed that they deserved to be killed and should be glad that we're in the grace administration.
Rosie sat by and allowed this, possibly encouraged it. The fact is, she did NOT speak out against it and STILL HASN'T.
Eve having lesbian sex with satan was taught in the FOUNDATIONAL CLASS of TWI - even AFTER the purge of Craig. I'd say that's consent on Rosie's part.
Although nobody has actually seen or admitted to having lesbian sex with Rosie, there's more than enough "circumstantial" evidence for many folks to come to the conclusion that she and Donna are living, breathing hypocrites no better than vee pee and craiggers and all the other leaders involved with TWI - especially those who continue to "stand" with this evil, corrupt, putrid organization.
Okay GT, Martindale has been gone for a while, and it's obvious by those words that he is demented.
But that was not a public "teaching," and so it is not necessary that TWI publically repudiate them. Neither is it necessary for TWI to inform those of us who have left if they have changed that position.
Again, this thread is about Rivenbark. If TWI has gone to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy to cover for her, as long as they are consistent it is nobody's business. Should they be examined? Of course. Does Rivenbark deserve to be examined? Of course. That should be the result of this thread. What does she say and teach? How does she lead?
So, has the "homo purge" in all its ugly manifestations continued since the very sick Craig Martindale's bad behavior got him thrown out? However cynical and self-serving TWI's motives may have been, we need to be honest about other changes that have taken place, including that. If we aren't, then Greasespot's credibility will suffer, not just among the die-hard Wayfers, but everywhere.
How DOES Rivenbark's administration at TWI square with her personal life? Is she a sexual hypocrite, or isn't she? If she isn't, her own sex life should be off-limits.
I believe there is plenty of evidence that she is "rotten fruit from a rotten tree." But attacking her for Martindale's excesses will only gain her sympathy, and make Greasespot look bad.
Another question might be asked, "How did Rivenbark conduct herself during the homo purge?" Did she stand up for lesbians? Did she face down Martindale and confront him lovingly? Or did she lurk in the shadows until her chance to grab power? Has she discussed her own conduct THEN? Might be worth asking.
Does anybody see what I'm getting at here, or am I wasting my time?
It is most certainly the responsibility of any organization, especially TWI, to notify their members if they had taken a change in course in belief and doctrine. Since TWI has been especially rabid against homosexuality (both male and female) and had hunted down believer in their own group, accused them, labeled them and kicked them out, not ONLY should they come clean about changing their minds on that tennet but should issue a public apology for all those hurt/ousted and mistreated because of prior doctrinal beliefs.
To not do so is lying by omission, neglectful and deceitful. Until they issue a public statement saying they changed their minds, it is proper to conclude that they have the same thoughts about homosexuality of males and females.
With Martingdale gone, it matters not if the same amount of vitrol is being spouted against homosexual males and females. This is a cult we're talking about and not an honest research group. Cults change enemies and the intensity of hate towards their enemies as is needed. Usually when the heat is on against an enemy that the leadership decides to target, it is an indication of how much the leadeship of said group wants to get the eyes of the followers off of leadership and distract them elsewhere. It has nothing to do with honesty or re-evaluation but finding the most handiest smoke screen available and is not a viable option to consider in not pursuing a group for previous held passionate beliefs.
It is valid to consider what we know now. The facts are, there was a homo purge of males and females. There was much hurt done. It is posted that there was behavior on the part of Rosie and Donna that showed there could be an alternative lifestyle in play; which by the way, many more rank and file believers were accused and ousted for A LOT LESS. Facts are that while this 'homo purge' but TWI ensued, they survived.
It is not unreasonable to ask why that is and it is not unreasonable to point out that the ONE thing TWI hated is quite possibly being practiced by those in upper level management.
Did Rosie stick up for the male and female homosexual? Fact, did she come out of the closet to all? No. She did get honest and pack her bags and leave like on her own free will conscience while who knows how many people were marked to be avoided? No, she did not.
Did she confront LCM? Who knows and who would ever believe any story told by either of them? That is like one Nazi guard telling the other Nazi guard not to turn on the gas chamber. People were hurt and neither of them are accurate, honest or viable enough to believe anyway.
Guilty by association. Should Rosie be spared that? No.
Not unless she publicly made a statement to address said issues. Which she didn't. Which she won't.
And that in itself leaves TWI and Rosie wide open for speculation of why it is okay for her while for others it wasn't.
If that isn't what you are asking, I have no idea then what to say.
Okay GT, Martindale has been gone for a while, and it's obvious by those words that he is demented.
But that was not a public "teaching," and so it is not necessary that TWI publically repudiate them. Neither is it necessary for TWI to inform those of us who have left if they have changed that position.
Again, this thread is about Rivenbark. If TWI has gone to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy to cover for her, as long as they are consistent it is nobody's business. Should they be examined? Of course. Does Rivenbark deserve to be examined? Of course. That should be the result of this thread. What does she say and teach? How does she lead?
So, has the "homo purge" in all its ugly manifestations continued since the very sick Craig Martindale's bad behavior got him thrown out? However cynical and self-serving TWI's motives may have been, we need to be honest about other changes that have taken place, including that. If we aren't, then Greasespot's credibility will suffer, not just among the die-hard Wayfers, but everywhere.
How DOES Rivenbark's administration at TWI square with her personal life? Is she a sexual hypocrite, or isn't she? If she isn't, her own sex life should be off-limits.
I believe there is plenty of evidence that she is "rotten fruit from a rotten tree." But attacking her for Martindale's excesses will only gain her sympathy, and make Greasespot look bad.
Another question might be asked, "How did Rivenbark conduct herself during the homo purge?" Did she stand up for lesbians? Did she face down Martindale and confront him lovingly? Or did she lurk in the shadows until her chance to grab power? Has she discussed her own conduct THEN? Might be worth asking.
Does anybody see what I'm getting at here, or am I wasting my time?
This thread is not about Martindale's excesses and the homo purge. It's about the lemmings. How they think. What will get them to truly think? Discussing her past actions concerning lcm will not get their attention. They can mentally block that.
I'm honest about the changes. I looked into leaderships eyes. In fact, it was the direct actions of leadership, including the President Fox, that encouraged me to leave twi. Had Rivenbark not done what she did to me, I would probably never be here on GS. Maybe I should thank her.
I remember being annoyed (and others were to) about how impersonal rfr could be. For her birthday she spoke about witnessing or believing or something boring like that instead of herself. She was our president. We wanted to know who she is. Maybe the ultimate Robot Corp. Who is rfr?
Amazing how someone who DEMANDS openess from der flock about their job, finances, kids, sex life, potty schedules.. can't sit down for five minutes, be real, and tell somebody else about her personal life..
well, can't be too hard on the old "gal". Some witnessing incident in downtown podunk ohio was probably the most interesting thing she could come up with..
Oh, I'll give five points to the first person who names the figure the mod used in the title of the thread..
well, can't be too hard on the old "gal". Some witnessing incident in downtown podunk ohio was probably the most interesting thing she could come up with..
I should have added: "without incriminating herself either legally, or to the flock"
It's kinda pathetic, the only thing interesting about the old "gal", is about the things she doesn't really have the liberty to disclose..
If she is a lesbian, too bad she feels she can't live an open lifestyle.
but...
IF Donna is a lesbian... for ME that "kind of" makes what LCM did kinda not so bad. still wrong, but not AS bad. Still wrong, but it sorta gives me a different level of understanding.
Now the whole part about him taking advantage of women and lying, still horrible wrong and evil, but the IF his wife was lesbian, that kinda makes me see why he would be into having sex with other people.
IF Donna is a lesbian... for ME that "kind of" makes what LCM did kinda not so bad. still wrong, but not AS bad. Still wrong, but it sorta gives me a different level of understanding.
Now the whole part about him taking advantage of women and lying, still horrible wrong and evil, but the IF his wife was lesbian, that kinda makes me see why he would be into having sex with other people.
It is interesting that you see it from this point of view. I see it as, 'If Donna is a lesbian that would explain why she didn't really get all that upset when she knew for a very long time that he was stepping out on her.'
Now if Craig were a homo that would explain his intense hatered of women and his insane dark age style homo purge. His own religious beliefs fighting with his "urges" and inclinations.
And let's not forget that it is reported that LCM like his women together. Does that make him the meat of a lesbian sandwich? I don't have anything against any guy who wants to have sex with 2 women (as long as it's no my husband ;)); but don't preach against it and do it at the same time.
I can see that some of you are trying and that's good.
Does Rivenbark preside over a ministry that teaches lesbianism was the original sin? Sweet! Now THERE'S some first class, nausea-inducing hypocrisy. Even a total outsider can appreciate rank hypocrisy. Rivenbark's conduct might even offend lesbians more than anyone else, and rightfully so, if it's true. Any day now, Dykes on Bikes, riding a hundred-fifty Harleys, may thunder down Wierwille Road looking for a piece of Rosalie. Howard, Ricardo, somebody - alert Bless Patrol!
But it can't be presented as hearsay. Either it's fact, or it isn't. And the whole thing falls flat if it isn't fact. You put it out there, you present the facts. Don't tell readers to "look it up."
--
Bolshevik, you can't be serious when you say this thread is about "lemmings." It may be directed at them somehow. And when you want to persuade someone, it's best to begin by calling him or her a lemming. Good call.
--
What did Rosalie teach about homosexuality and when did she teach it? Was it during Martindale's regime, or afterward? A lot of those "leaders" were just doing what Craig told them to do, and left to themselves might have taught something else, like about the four crucified, or abundant sharing. How about after Martindale's fall? How did the Wayfer Curriculum develop?
--
Asking Rivenbark about the son in jail? Can she help that? Did he take the rap for her? What's that about, except hurting her personally? She probably really has it coming, but you have to present your case before you take a shot like that. Otherwise, you're just helping her, making her the object of sympathy, and yourselves the objects of disdain by the very ones you hope to reach.
On the other hand, the NC property might raise an eyebrow. What do you mean by ABS paying for it? Do you mean, out of her salary? (Isn't she entitled to a salary?) Or is she diverting funds? What are you saying? I'd be careful there. And the taxes? What do you know? And the house in her name? Interesting precedent there. But the pets? Frankly, isn't that just kinda petty?
--
If you people just want to vent, or maybe irritate Rivenbark and her throngs of delirious followers, you've about got it right. If you want to change someone's mind, you need to supply much more than innuendo and rancor. You've begun to do that now. Better late than never.
But it can't be presented as hearsay. Either it's fact, or it isn't. And the whole thing falls flat if it isn't fact. You put it out there, you present the facts. Don't tell readers to "look it up."
--
Bolshevik, you can't be serious when you say this thread is about "lemmings." It may be directed at them somehow. And when you want to persuade someone, it's best to begin by calling him or her a lemming. Good call.
This kind of thread can find itself on thin ice because it can easily become a gossip-fest. There are a number of posts that bear me out.
Some posts report what someone has seen, and that is fine. And some ask reasonable questions, which is fine. But some are over the line, in my opinion. As despicable a person as she may be, people need to be explicitly informed or reminded before treating her as such.
This thread discusses Rivenbark's sexuality. The ONLY justification for that kind of topic (and it's a good one) is how it substantively (is that a word?) relates to her position and authority at The Way. We can apply all the same rules we do to Martindale's past unethical and predatory behavior.
I'd like to see the thread continue, but only if it can be a legitimate discussion of the TWI president's life in light of the standards they pretend to live by. If we can't do that, it's pretty sad. Then it becomes GossipSpot.
This kind of thread can find itself on thin ice because it can easily become a gossip-fest. There are a number of posts that bear me out.
Some posts report what someone has seen, and that is fine. And some ask reasonable questions, which is fine. But some are over the line, in my opinion. As despicable a person as she may be, people need to be explicitly informed or reminded before treating her as such.
This thread discusses Rivenbark's sexuality. The ONLY justification for that kind of topic (and it's a good one) is how it substantively (is that a word?) relates to her position and authority at The Way. We can apply all the same rules we do to Martindale's past unethical and predatory behavior.
I'd like to see the thread continue, but only if it can be a legitimate discussion of the TWI president's life in light of the standards they pretend to live by. If we can't do that, it's pretty sad. Then it becomes GossipSpot.
Do people hate the President of the United States because of who he is or the because of the position he holds and the decisions he makes?
Even if Rivenbark is not a lesbian in any way. F Her.
I can see that some of you are trying and that's good.
How benevolent of you to bestow your blessings on our discussion. -_-
Does Rivenbark preside over a ministry that teaches lesbianism was the original sin? Sweet! Now THERE'S some first class, nausea-inducing hypocrisy. Even a total outsider can appreciate rank hypocrisy. Rivenbark's conduct might even offend lesbians more than anyone else, and rightfully so, if it's true. Any day now, Dykes on Bikes, riding a hundred-fifty Harleys, may thunder down Wierwille Road looking for a piece of Rosalie. Howard, Ricardo, somebody - alert Bless Patrol!
But it can't be presented as hearsay. Either it's fact, or it isn't. And the whole thing falls flat if it isn't fact. You put it out there, you present the facts. Don't tell readers to "look it up."
It's fact. You want me to mail you a copy of the class syllabus? I'm no longer involved and I *think* someone said they left it out of the new foundational class, but that's more than five years after she took office AND I know that the teaching has never been refuted or "corrected" by Rosie & Company. Can someone still involved confirm this, please?
What did Rosalie teach about homosexuality and when did she teach it? Was it during Martindale's regime, or afterward? A lot of those "leaders" were just doing what Craig told them to do, and left to themselves might have taught something else, like about the four crucified, or abundant sharing. How about after Martindale's fall? How did the Wayfer Curriculum develop?
Are you serious? The above is enough proof that she subscribes to the doctrine. Silence IS consent. IF she disagrees with the doctrine, she has had ample time to come out and correct it and tell the followers that the teaching was in error. She hasn't.
Asking Rivenbark about the son in jail? Can she help that? Did he take the rap for her? What's that about, except hurting her personally? She probably really has it coming, but you have to present your case before you take a shot like that. Otherwise, you're just helping her, making her the object of sympathy, and yourselves the objects of disdain by the very ones you hope to reach.
Just one more reason why she's utterly unfit to be a "leader" of any kind. Is a leader not required to "rule well his own house"? If her own family is seriously flawed and her children don't respect her and - I think, most importantly - if she has a completely dysfunctional family, there's no way she should be in any sort of leadership capacity.
On the other hand, the NC property might raise an eyebrow. What do you mean by ABS paying for it? Do you mean, out of her salary? (Isn't she entitled to a salary?) Or is she diverting funds? What are you saying? I'd be careful there. And the taxes? What do you know? And the house in her name? Interesting precedent there. But the pets? Frankly, isn't that just kinda petty?
I'm saying that TWI teaches people to live on a "need basis" and that anything and everything considered "abundance" is to be given to "the church". It's hypocritical to own property that's unnecessary, paying taxes on it and owning her own property when the precedence has been set by the previous president's and the teachings of TWI.
The pets is petty IF it were the only way in which rosie exempted herself from rules that she supported and imposed on all other leadership and followers of TWI. It's not, it's one of many examples of how she considers herself above the law and exempt from following the doctrine and legalistic rules of TWI.
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WordWolf
Sometimes we need a gentle nudge to redirect a thread to its original purpose.
(And sometimes we need a truck with a big front shovel.)
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Hope R.
Belle -
I was in the Sickth Corps. I never heard or saw any contincency of women sleeping together sexually (if that was the implication in your post). When Sunny S*nd*rs was the women's Corps Coordinator, she did have small groups of us over to her dorm for slumber parties. We made popcorn, told stories, and "shared hearts". Sunny was an amazing person and it is something I won't forget. I wonder what happened to her... but that's another topic.
Mrs. Green was in the 5th Corps - perhaps that's what you mean.
Regarding Donna, I do recall this...
One night during our last year, when we were getting ready to graduate, VP and Loy met with the men, and the next night VP and Donna met with the women. I believe I'm remembering this correctly...
We were discussing love and marriage -- LCM & Donna had only been married for about a year then. Lots of women were asking bs questions about "corps marrying corps" and "how do you know if it's the right man", etc.
I don't recall how it came up, but Donna shared about a time that she went to VP to talk to him about her feelings for other women. If my memory serves me right, she was concerned because she felt like she loved her women friends too much - that she wanted to spend time with them -- she was worried that she might be a lesbian (and I really think she used the "L-Word"). VP's reply to her was something like "honey, you have a big heart and a so much love to give to people -- you're misinterpreting your love for something sexual... but it's not - you just love people so much you feel like you're gonna burst!" I remember DM saying she was relieved when he told her that.
Then she went on to tell us how VP fixed her up with LCM ... and they lived happily (???) ever after.
Years later, when I started hearing the rumors about DM & RFR, I thought of that night - so I wasn't really surprised by it.
Up until then, it never crossed my mind - but after hearing it - it sorta made sense. No, there's no proof - no eyewitnesses (ugh). No one has photos or video tapes. It's all a matter of perception... like sudo said... if it looks like a duck...
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FullCircle
What makes me angry and disgusts me is all the anti rhetoric against anyone who was homosexual while in TWI. I remember years and years before they started the 'homo purge' (TWI's words) how TWI was very anti gay/homosexual whatever.
The Heart Magazine (do you remember that) once wore a cover of Uncle Sam made up horrendously and with long painted finger nails under the banner of a title "The Queering of America." I remember how TWI taught (and I found out many funadmentalist churches as well) it was the lowest of the low to be gay, lower than a murderer and it was all the result of idolatry.
I can't imagine what it would have been like to even suspect you had tendencies in that direction nevertheless to be gay/homosexual. (I don't know what the right word here is to use w/o being offensive) I can't imagine the anguish, the fear and the condemnation of thinking you were possessed because of the doctrine of TWI.
Sometime during 1995 I thought I had missed the ministry after being out for five years so I called up HQ and got a phone number for a local fellowship. I never went, I overcame that laspe of judgment but I got a letter from HQ, I think it was from HA about the WOW program being cancelled or something like that and the reasoning was because of 'homos.' Their words. The letter was so ill, the content was so ill, and I saw plainly a really lame and sad attempt to lay all the blame of the ministries problems solely on those who were gay/homosexual. It was disgusting.
To put out that much fear, to put out that much condemnation, to do that much damage to people's lives in purging the ministry of those who had alternative lifestyles and to accuse them of being possessed, but not only them but anyone who had NO problems with them or could or would be sympathetic to people who were gay/homosexual, to break up their marriages (there's plenty of testimony of women who were not submissive being accused of having a lesbian spirit) ONLY to be practicing the same thing in private is beyond wrong, beyond being unethical and beyond understanding.
It would have been one thing if TWI believed their doctrine was true and they really meant it.
It was and is a totally different issue for them to cook up a scapegoat to lay all the problems on TWI on, knowing that they did not believe it to be wrong or devilish and had upper crust members doing the same thing.
If a person within a marriage finds themselves attracted to the same sex as themselves and has an affair with a same sex partner while married, it is STILL adultery. Being with the same sex partner doesn't NOT make it any less an affair or a betrayal of the marriage committment.
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satori001
Okay GT, Martindale has been gone for a while, and it's obvious by those words that he is demented.
But that was not a public "teaching," and so it is not necessary that TWI publically repudiate them. Neither is it necessary for TWI to inform those of us who have left if they have changed that position.
Again, this thread is about Rivenbark. If TWI has gone to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy to cover for her, as long as they are consistent it is nobody's business. Should they be examined? Of course. Does Rivenbark deserve to be examined? Of course. That should be the result of this thread. What does she say and teach? How does she lead?
So, has the "homo purge" in all its ugly manifestations continued since the very sick Craig Martindale's bad behavior got him thrown out? However cynical and self-serving TWI's motives may have been, we need to be honest about other changes that have taken place, including that. If we aren't, then Greasespot's credibility will suffer, not just among the die-hard Wayfers, but everywhere.
How DOES Rivenbark's administration at TWI square with her personal life? Is she a sexual hypocrite, or isn't she? If she isn't, her own sex life should be off-limits.
I believe there is plenty of evidence that she is "rotten fruit from a rotten tree." But attacking her for Martindale's excesses will only gain her sympathy, and make Greasespot look bad.
Another question might be asked, "How did Rivenbark conduct herself during the homo purge?" Did she stand up for lesbians? Did she face down Martindale and confront him lovingly? Or did she lurk in the shadows until her chance to grab power? Has she discussed her own conduct THEN? Might be worth asking.
Does anybody see what I'm getting at here, or am I wasting my time?
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Belle
BULL ....!!!
There were MANY public teachings about homosexuality. MANY cases of people being ridiculed, demeaned, humiliated and worse PUBLICLY ACCUSED of being homosexuals. MANY letters sent out about particular individuals being kicked out because of "genuine spiritual suspicion" of them being homosexual. They've all been discussed here MANY times.
Satori, you've been here way too long to not know that.
He11, the teachings from craig's foundational class and the original sin of mankind being Eve's lesbian encounter with satan has been discussed too many times to mention.
FURTHERMORE, these teachings have never been changed, corrected or taught as being wrong. The teachings and the doctrine still stands at TWI under Rivenbark's reign.
I see what you're getting at, but you need to get your facts straight before you start implying that we're making mountains out of molehills and dis-crediting Greasespot.
Facts are:
TWI (ALL the leaders in TWI) taught vehemently against homosexuality and claimed that they deserved to be killed and should be glad that we're in the grace administration.
Rosie sat by and allowed this, possibly encouraged it. The fact is, she did NOT speak out against it and STILL HASN'T.
Eve having lesbian sex with satan was taught in the FOUNDATIONAL CLASS of TWI - even AFTER the purge of Craig. I'd say that's consent on Rosie's part.
Although nobody has actually seen or admitted to having lesbian sex with Rosie, there's more than enough "circumstantial" evidence for many folks to come to the conclusion that she and Donna are living, breathing hypocrites no better than vee pee and craiggers and all the other leaders involved with TWI - especially those who continue to "stand" with this evil, corrupt, putrid organization.
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FullCircle
It is most certainly the responsibility of any organization, especially TWI, to notify their members if they had taken a change in course in belief and doctrine. Since TWI has been especially rabid against homosexuality (both male and female) and had hunted down believer in their own group, accused them, labeled them and kicked them out, not ONLY should they come clean about changing their minds on that tennet but should issue a public apology for all those hurt/ousted and mistreated because of prior doctrinal beliefs.
To not do so is lying by omission, neglectful and deceitful. Until they issue a public statement saying they changed their minds, it is proper to conclude that they have the same thoughts about homosexuality of males and females.
With Martingdale gone, it matters not if the same amount of vitrol is being spouted against homosexual males and females. This is a cult we're talking about and not an honest research group. Cults change enemies and the intensity of hate towards their enemies as is needed. Usually when the heat is on against an enemy that the leadership decides to target, it is an indication of how much the leadeship of said group wants to get the eyes of the followers off of leadership and distract them elsewhere. It has nothing to do with honesty or re-evaluation but finding the most handiest smoke screen available and is not a viable option to consider in not pursuing a group for previous held passionate beliefs.
It is valid to consider what we know now. The facts are, there was a homo purge of males and females. There was much hurt done. It is posted that there was behavior on the part of Rosie and Donna that showed there could be an alternative lifestyle in play; which by the way, many more rank and file believers were accused and ousted for A LOT LESS. Facts are that while this 'homo purge' but TWI ensued, they survived.
It is not unreasonable to ask why that is and it is not unreasonable to point out that the ONE thing TWI hated is quite possibly being practiced by those in upper level management.
Did Rosie stick up for the male and female homosexual? Fact, did she come out of the closet to all? No. She did get honest and pack her bags and leave like on her own free will conscience while who knows how many people were marked to be avoided? No, she did not.
Did she confront LCM? Who knows and who would ever believe any story told by either of them? That is like one Nazi guard telling the other Nazi guard not to turn on the gas chamber. People were hurt and neither of them are accurate, honest or viable enough to believe anyway.
Guilty by association. Should Rosie be spared that? No.
Not unless she publicly made a statement to address said issues. Which she didn't. Which she won't.
And that in itself leaves TWI and Rosie wide open for speculation of why it is okay for her while for others it wasn't.
If that isn't what you are asking, I have no idea then what to say.
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Bolshevik
This thread is not about Martindale's excesses and the homo purge. It's about the lemmings. How they think. What will get them to truly think? Discussing her past actions concerning lcm will not get their attention. They can mentally block that.
I'm honest about the changes. I looked into leaderships eyes. In fact, it was the direct actions of leadership, including the President Fox, that encouraged me to leave twi. Had Rivenbark not done what she did to me, I would probably never be here on GS. Maybe I should thank her.
I remember being annoyed (and others were to) about how impersonal rfr could be. For her birthday she spoke about witnessing or believing or something boring like that instead of herself. She was our president. We wanted to know who she is. Maybe the ultimate Robot Corp. Who is rfr?
anyway, walks like a duck, quack quack quack
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Ham
Sounds like the LAST thing she wanted you to really know.
Instead you get horror stories about the expression on somebody's face when they found rosie on the other side of the door..
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Ham
Amazing how someone who DEMANDS openess from der flock about their job, finances, kids, sex life, potty schedules.. can't sit down for five minutes, be real, and tell somebody else about her personal life..
well, can't be too hard on the old "gal". Some witnessing incident in downtown podunk ohio was probably the most interesting thing she could come up with..
Oh, I'll give five points to the first person who names the figure the mod used in the title of the thread..
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Belle
Yeah - like ....
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Where are your sons?
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Is the one still in prison?
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What did he go to prison for?
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Why'd you get divorced?
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Why do you still hold onto all that land in NC when you're not using it?
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Isn't that "abundance?"
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How much are taxes on that property?
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Do the TWIts know their ABS is being spent on that?
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Why were your pets exempt from the "no pet" policy?
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Why is your house in your name when all the other "presidents" lived in or gave their property to TWI?
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Why did you perjure yourself in court?
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Were you afraid to do it?
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Bolshevik
Sounds like this duck is more like a goose. A golden goose maybe.
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waysider
TWI taught and , as far as I know, still teaches that homosexuality(including both genders) is caused by devil spirit possesion.
If they are correct, it has the potential for meaning their organization is being led by someone who is possesed.
I say "potential" because the facts have not yet been verified regarding the said parties' preferences.
If they are wrong, it means their credibility on any other critical issue is worthless.
so there you have the two options if, indeed, the reports were to be found true.
Option#1. Led by someone who is possesed.
Option#2.No credibility on crucial matters.
Either way, the significance of the issue far exceeds personal curiousity regarding the situation.
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Bolshevik
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Ham
I should have added: "without incriminating herself either legally, or to the flock"
It's kinda pathetic, the only thing interesting about the old "gal", is about the things she doesn't really have the liberty to disclose..
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nandon
If she is a lesbian, too bad she feels she can't live an open lifestyle.
but...
IF Donna is a lesbian... for ME that "kind of" makes what LCM did kinda not so bad. still wrong, but not AS bad. Still wrong, but it sorta gives me a different level of understanding.
Now the whole part about him taking advantage of women and lying, still horrible wrong and evil, but the IF his wife was lesbian, that kinda makes me see why he would be into having sex with other people.
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Bumpy
http://mail.google.com/mail/?realattid=f_f...11e290e3edf3e3f
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Eyesopen
It is interesting that you see it from this point of view. I see it as, 'If Donna is a lesbian that would explain why she didn't really get all that upset when she knew for a very long time that he was stepping out on her.'
Now if Craig were a homo that would explain his intense hatered of women and his insane dark age style homo purge. His own religious beliefs fighting with his "urges" and inclinations.
just a thought...
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Nottawayfer
And let's not forget that it is reported that LCM like his women together. Does that make him the meat of a lesbian sandwich? I don't have anything against any guy who wants to have sex with 2 women (as long as it's no my husband ;)); but don't preach against it and do it at the same time.
I like dykes, so does that make me nonPC??
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satori001
I can see that some of you are trying and that's good.
Does Rivenbark preside over a ministry that teaches lesbianism was the original sin? Sweet! Now THERE'S some first class, nausea-inducing hypocrisy. Even a total outsider can appreciate rank hypocrisy. Rivenbark's conduct might even offend lesbians more than anyone else, and rightfully so, if it's true. Any day now, Dykes on Bikes, riding a hundred-fifty Harleys, may thunder down Wierwille Road looking for a piece of Rosalie. Howard, Ricardo, somebody - alert Bless Patrol!
But it can't be presented as hearsay. Either it's fact, or it isn't. And the whole thing falls flat if it isn't fact. You put it out there, you present the facts. Don't tell readers to "look it up."
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Bolshevik, you can't be serious when you say this thread is about "lemmings." It may be directed at them somehow. And when you want to persuade someone, it's best to begin by calling him or her a lemming. Good call.
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What did Rosalie teach about homosexuality and when did she teach it? Was it during Martindale's regime, or afterward? A lot of those "leaders" were just doing what Craig told them to do, and left to themselves might have taught something else, like about the four crucified, or abundant sharing. How about after Martindale's fall? How did the Wayfer Curriculum develop?
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Asking Rivenbark about the son in jail? Can she help that? Did he take the rap for her? What's that about, except hurting her personally? She probably really has it coming, but you have to present your case before you take a shot like that. Otherwise, you're just helping her, making her the object of sympathy, and yourselves the objects of disdain by the very ones you hope to reach.
On the other hand, the NC property might raise an eyebrow. What do you mean by ABS paying for it? Do you mean, out of her salary? (Isn't she entitled to a salary?) Or is she diverting funds? What are you saying? I'd be careful there. And the taxes? What do you know? And the house in her name? Interesting precedent there. But the pets? Frankly, isn't that just kinda petty?
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If you people just want to vent, or maybe irritate Rivenbark and her throngs of delirious followers, you've about got it right. If you want to change someone's mind, you need to supply much more than innuendo and rancor. You've begun to do that now. Better late than never.
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Bolshevik
Well that just hurts.
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satori001
I think you'll be okay.
This kind of thread can find itself on thin ice because it can easily become a gossip-fest. There are a number of posts that bear me out.
Some posts report what someone has seen, and that is fine. And some ask reasonable questions, which is fine. But some are over the line, in my opinion. As despicable a person as she may be, people need to be explicitly informed or reminded before treating her as such.
This thread discusses Rivenbark's sexuality. The ONLY justification for that kind of topic (and it's a good one) is how it substantively (is that a word?) relates to her position and authority at The Way. We can apply all the same rules we do to Martindale's past unethical and predatory behavior.
I'd like to see the thread continue, but only if it can be a legitimate discussion of the TWI president's life in light of the standards they pretend to live by. If we can't do that, it's pretty sad. Then it becomes GossipSpot.
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Bolshevik
Do people hate the President of the United States because of who he is or the because of the position he holds and the decisions he makes?
Even if Rivenbark is not a lesbian in any way. F Her.
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Belle
How benevolent of you to bestow your blessings on our discussion. -_-
It's fact. You want me to mail you a copy of the class syllabus? I'm no longer involved and I *think* someone said they left it out of the new foundational class, but that's more than five years after she took office AND I know that the teaching has never been refuted or "corrected" by Rosie & Company. Can someone still involved confirm this, please?
Are you serious? The above is enough proof that she subscribes to the doctrine. Silence IS consent. IF she disagrees with the doctrine, she has had ample time to come out and correct it and tell the followers that the teaching was in error. She hasn't.
Just one more reason why she's utterly unfit to be a "leader" of any kind. Is a leader not required to "rule well his own house"? If her own family is seriously flawed and her children don't respect her and - I think, most importantly - if she has a completely dysfunctional family, there's no way she should be in any sort of leadership capacity.
I'm saying that TWI teaches people to live on a "need basis" and that anything and everything considered "abundance" is to be given to "the church". It's hypocritical to own property that's unnecessary, paying taxes on it and owning her own property when the precedence has been set by the previous president's and the teachings of TWI.
The pets is petty IF it were the only way in which rosie exempted herself from rules that she supported and imposed on all other leadership and followers of TWI. It's not, it's one of many examples of how she considers herself above the law and exempt from following the doctrine and legalistic rules of TWI.
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Bolshevik
Again, not to imply any hatred toward lesbians in general.
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