I decided to read my bible and asked God to show me. . . go figure -- He never lets me down. I'm so happy to be getting back on track with my God and my Lord. I'm still reading the history book, I've just not gotten very far yet.
Thanks again for suggestion and just wanted to let you know I'm making progress.
Thanks to everyone for their replies and jokes -- those were much needed as well to keep things light and in perspective.
I was referring to the verse above, "that they may be one as we are."
You represented John 17 as having "Jesus PRAYING to God that we be one with him in the SAME manner that HE is one with God."
Jesus was speaking specifically of the 12 apostles in v:11, then he speaks of "us" later in the prayer,
v:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word... (v:21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe..."
... that I am, In fact, you (God, the father) and you are me (Jesus, the son).... because they (my present and future deciples that you gave me are united within themselves.
That is irrelevant to your previous assertions.
Yeah, right.
Funny how so much criticism of a person's post here at the cafe, is so often preceded by a personal slam, ("...full of yourself.") Then the critic so often puts words into the mouth of the "critic-ee." Then "proves" the "critic-ee" - - "wrong" by himself saying something the person NEVER even said.
Hi imsunny2, glad to hear it! Progress is good! We should expect it.
Several times in the last couple weeks the topic of the development of religions and religious philosophy has come up. Had a conversation on philosophy today - Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
Empirical meaning a method of experiment, experience and observation.
I'd say that Christianity as a whole recognizes what's in the Bible as revealed truth, information given by God, either in the records that state the information or in records where we see God's interaction directly being recorded. Most Christians also believe that the entire work of the Bible is a revealed collection, with purpose for what's there. So it's often studied as if it were written by one person in a single sitting, from beginning to end - ie "God is the author".
For someone to shove the Bible in someone else's face and say "Believe it!" is a pretty ineffective way to encourage a person to "have faith". Many Christians believe that's the highest form of faith, to simply believe what someone else tells them the Bible says and means and then to just believe it.
IMO, a lot of people then wrap their own experience around what they think or have been told the Bible says and validate it, explain it, make it "true" through emperical methods - ending up with activities and results that prove something that wasn't understood to begin with.
It's the old - "People used to believe the earth was flat" thing. What they did proved it, as they understood it. But that's been proven wrong. Sort of, I guess it could be argued that the earth is flat when you're walking on it, allowing for some ups and downs here and there. So while the perspective might be perfectly true to the person doing the walking who says "it's flat", if you were the earth you'd say "I'm round".
When I read the Bible I've asked myself that kind of question so many times - am I understanding what I read based on what I expect or want it to say, or am I allowing it to speak for itself?
Easter, and the resurrection really are where the rubber meets the road in this line of thinking. Christ being "raised from the dead" after 3 days was an event completely outside human involvment. No one expected it or was waiting anxiously at the gravesite to see Jesus on that morning. Mary was there mourning His passing. When she ran back to tell others what she'd seen she said "I've seen the Lord!" I can imagine her feelings and the reactions of the others that heard that.
To believe it or not to believe it? Those who did believed it because they saw Him finally. Later and now - others believe this happened too, not having seen Him face to face.
Yet when a person chooses to look at that information they are putting themselves in the same place that those people were. Everything says He's dead, and now we might also think, if He ever lived at all.
Logic says He can't be. If we're to proceed forward at all He has to be alive, He has to show Himself to those who are there whether they're looking for a dead man or a living one. Either He is or He isn't - at that point it becomes something that my expectation can't produce - God and Christ have to do their part. They have to speak for themselves.
Arriving at that point solely through faith is an interesting proposition but it doesn't produce a living Savior. My "faith" doesn't do it, regardless of how much some people might admire that approach. God and Christ have to be "real" for faith to be rewarded. I think it's the same whether it's reason or faith that brings us to that point - the next phase is still the same.
I love it when what you're saying happens. The best we can do is go with it, proceed, move forward. Enjoy. :)
This is why I take a rather panantheistic (not to be confused with pantheistic) view, rather than God and Jesus being the guy, or guys out there somewhere.
Perhaps that is how I can reconcile Jesus being God, yet the son of God, and yet still be somewhat unitarian in my views.
In the 20 years since I have left twi (involved for 13 years), I have pondered this question numerous times...
I have honestly looked at both sides and have discovered that equally intelligent people can defend their positions with both scripture and logic...
The question that I pose is this...Does God favor those who are intelligent enough to figure it out versus those who are not?
I thought that the way to salvation was supposed to be simple that even a fool wouldn't err.
So what is it?...Those with the intelligence and know-how, who can study the scriptures properly, are on their way to heaven and those of us who are too dumb to figure it our are on the way to hell?
Is that what life is all about?...
What about the genetically disadvantaged?...sorry pal, God doesn't like stupid people so you miss the boat?
Do all the Forest Gumps of the world lose out?
...and what about all the smart folks who drew the wrong conclusions?...it doesn't matter that you loved people and lived honestly and believed in God?...sorry Ajax, you read the wrong book or belonged to the wrong denomination...it's fire and brimstone for you.
Is the doctrine of the trinity the axis that salvation pivots on?
It seems that there are certain things in this life that are beyond our control...Sometimes I think that we get hung up on things that are not as important as we think they are...If we accept the lord Jesus and live our lives honestly and we extend our hearts to help others and to love others...I think we have done something godly...salvation is by God's grace and it's His call...God looks on the heart.
Personally, I stopped trying to figure out the details of controversial biblical doctrines and simply live my life the best that I can.
My belief system says we worship Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ in my belief system, as I posted earlier, is the personage usually referred to as God in the Old Testement since Heavenly Father could no longer converse directly with man because of sin.
We are to believe and pray to Heavenly Father, God, who is the creator of this universe and all that is in it as well as being the father of us all.
We are to believe that Jesus Christ is the incarnated Son of God, who came to earth and led a sinless live, took the sins of the world; past, present and future; upon hiimself in Gethsemene, was beaten and tortured as punishment for those sins, permitted Himself to die upon the Cross and then be resurrected so as to break the bonds of death and permit eternal life to become possible.
On our parts we are expected to try our best to follow in Christ's footsteps and lead the most sinless life we can-
Personally I find the debate of --Is Jesus Christ God as in Heavenly Father being GOd etc etc etc-- to be a device of Satan so that people are distracted from perfecting their personal walk by having thenm engage in discussions which in no way expands their understanding of Heavenly Fathers will.
Does that mean I think these discussions shouldn't take place--Absolutly not I think trying to understand all aspects of one's faith is very important --what I am talking about is the believers; that get so wrapped up in trying to convert people to their point of view on this, or any similar topic; for who the conversion of people to their belief on one issue becomes their spritual goal.
That is exactly where I got -- I realized that for me to just take someone's word on all this was quite stupid. I decided to find out for myself and let God and Christ show me the way and of course I'm not disappointed in my expectations.
There are trinitarians and Christians. I don't see how trinitarians can call themselves Christians and trinitarians don't recognize those of us who believe Christ is the Son, not God the son, as Christians. They follow and believe in the trinity -- hence the name.
In my humble opinion from what I've learned, the trinity is a doctrine of devils. Also, it's mainstream so-called Christianity. Christ didn't go with the majority -- I think I'll pass on that myself.
When I read the Bible I've asked myself that kind of question so many times - am I understanding what I read based on what I expect or want it to say, or am I allowing it to speak for itself?
Easter, and the resurrection really are where the rubber meets the road in this line of thinking. Christ being "raised from the dead" after 3 days was an event completely outside human involvment. No one expected it or was waiting anxiously at the gravesite to see Jesus on that morning. Mary was there mourning His passing. When she ran back to tell others what she'd seen she said "I've seen the Lord!" I can imagine her feelings and the reactions of the others that heard that.
To believe it or not to believe it? Those who did believed it because they saw Him finally. Later and now - others believe this happened too, not having seen Him face to face.
Yet when a person chooses to look at that information they are putting themselves in the same place that those people were. Everything says He's dead, and now we might also think, if He ever lived at all.
Logic says He can't be. If we're to proceed forward at all He has to be alive, He has to show Himself to those who are there whether they're looking for a dead man or a living one. Either He is or He isn't - at that point it becomes something that my expectation can't produce - God and Christ have to do their part. They have to speak for themselves.
I would post this in the Easter "He Is Risen!" thread, but it was Sock's post and most particularly the event of Jesus' resurrection being "where the rubber hits the road" that compels me to pose this hypothetical question:
-Hypothetically - to everyone here (pretend we're in an alternate universe) -
Had Jesus' resurrection not been part of the Gospel-
would anyone here had still followed and lived their lives according to his teachings (e.g. "Sermon on the Mount")?
Remove Jesus' resurrection from the scenario -would his sayings and teachings elsewhere be rendered ineffective, powerless and unworthy of bothering oneself with?
I think it interesting that there were a few early Christian Gospels which comprised exclusively of his sayings, with the complete absence of any narrative depicting Jesus' story or events.
Hi imsunny2 - interesting thoughts. Labels - we have enough of them to be sure. Christian, Trinitarian, Unitarian, Fundamentalist, Conservative Right-Wing- Buffalo-Wing.
Q: How many Unitarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: 3. God has a sense of humor!
-equal time-
Q: How many Trinitarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: was it manufactured post or pre-Vatican ll ?
Oh, I'm cracking myself up.
Danny, your question is innerstin'. Thomas Jefferson is one comes to mind who approached it that way. Didn't he view the gospels and the teachings of Jesus as the basis for a moral and ethical belief system? His own views on the "trinity" get quoted by Non-Trinni's, as he didn't "believe" in it, but he didn't believe in the God/Christ/Redeemer part of any of it.
Taking what Jesus is recorded as saying and doing would be powerful, IMO. Some things bring up more questions, the parables for instance seem to beg for more clarification at times. There are single solid concepts that stand as is, "universal" ideas. Is it the gospel of Thomas that is a/one of a collection of the "sayings" of Jesus. Forget which now.
It's an idiotic religious doctrine that someone made up to divide us.
It's like someone asking me if I love my Dad more than my Mom... Its ridiculous.
Jesus is Jesus, he did what he did, God is God, he did what he did... maybe they are the same on some level, maybe they aren't.
Don't let religion make you think you're going to be possesed by a devil spirit, especially TWI...
IMPORTANT LIFE QUESTIONS:
How do you treat yourself/people?
How do you live everday of your life?
Are you positive, do you try your best?
IMPORTANT RELIGIOUS QUESTION: (if you are a christian)
Do you love God?
Do you love Jesus?
Do you believe Rom.10:9,10 (that is thou shalt confess with thine mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved)?
Don't be scared by tricky religous stuff... no matter how many times I hear both sides to the "is jesus god" argument, I can see that both sides have valid points... therefore I conclude that it is a stupid argument/debate/discussion-whatever, that was created to divide people up into groups.
In the 20 years since I have left twi (involved for 13 years), I have pondered this question numerous times...
I have honestly looked at both sides and have discovered that equally intelligent people can defend their positions with both scripture and logic...
The question that I pose is this...Does God favor those who are intelligent enough to figure it out versus those who are not?
I thought that the way to salvation was supposed to be simple that even a fool wouldn't err.
So what is it?...Those with the intelligence and know-how, who can study the scriptures properly, are on their way to heaven and those of us who are too dumb to figure it our are on the way to hell?
Is that what life is all about?...
What about the genetically disadvantaged?...sorry pal, God doesn't like stupid people so you miss the boat?
Do all the Forest Gumps of the world lose out?
...and what about all the smart folks who drew the wrong conclusions?...it doesn't matter that you loved people and lived honestly and believed in God?...sorry Ajax, you read the wrong book or belonged to the wrong denomination...it's fire and brimstone for you.
Is the doctrine of the trinity the axis that salvation pivots on?
It seems that there are certain things in this life that are beyond our control...Sometimes I think that we get hung up on things that are not as important as we think they are...If we accept the lord Jesus and live our lives honestly and we extend our hearts to help others and to love others...I think we have done something godly...salvation is by God's grace and it's His call...God looks on the heart.
Personally, I stopped trying to figure out the details of controversial biblical doctrines and simply live my life the best that I can.
Nandon and Groucho have made a great point here…Why do I study the Bible? Why do I look into who Jesus Christ was…is? It used to be about getting a lot of knowledge - even after I left TWI. But over the years I've tended to see the Bible more as an instrument of the Holy Spirit to persuade me to love God and my neighbor – and not as something to satisfy my intellectual curiosity. After thinking about these two posts – some Scripture came to mind:
Matthew 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven…" I think that implies the kingdom of heaven is accessible to anyone – regardless of intelligence level. Because I think it involves something everyone is capable of at some level – love. As in the following verses,
Matthew 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments…Jesus said all the Scripture that existed at the time hung on…was anchored by…supported by…two principles – love for God and neighbor.
John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another…We think we can determine who is a disciple of Jesus by finding out their doctrine, "does it line up with the Word?" – you know the routine. Jesus said the telltale indicator is the genuine love that believers live by.
I Corinthians 8:1 Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up…Don't think I need to comment on that.
Most excellent - all three of you!! I didn't even look at this thread because the question is a moot point, imo, and I'm not going to waste my time on these kinds of questions anymore.
Nandon - those are the only really important questions, aren't they?
Groucho - I agree. Who wants a God who expects people to be Rhodes Scholars and jump through hoops for him?
T-Bone - Those have AGAIN become my favorite Bible verses in these past few years. Funny, they used to be prior to my involvement with TWI, too.
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T-Bone
And the cross was made of green kryptonite.
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Bolshevik
He works for the Washington Herald? Or Way Pub?
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T-Bone
Naw…it’s gotta be The National Enquirer – no mere mortal could come up with those amazing stories.
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Bolshevik
My source for Truth.
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1 john 3:1
Jesus Christ is the son of God, He's your big brother not your father.
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ImSunny2
Socks --
I decided to read my bible and asked God to show me. . . go figure -- He never lets me down. I'm so happy to be getting back on track with my God and my Lord. I'm still reading the history book, I've just not gotten very far yet.
Thanks again for suggestion and just wanted to let you know I'm making progress.
Thanks to everyone for their replies and jokes -- those were much needed as well to keep things light and in perspective.
God bless us all in the name of Jesus Christ!
:)
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Cynic
These were YOUR words:
You represented John 17 as having "Jesus PRAYING to God that we be one with him in the SAME manner that HE is one with God."That is irrelevant to your previous assertions.
I "put" no words in your mouth. You wrote them.
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socks
Hi imsunny2, glad to hear it! Progress is good! We should expect it.
Several times in the last couple weeks the topic of the development of religions and religious philosophy has come up. Had a conversation on philosophy today - Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
Empirical meaning a method of experiment, experience and observation.
I'd say that Christianity as a whole recognizes what's in the Bible as revealed truth, information given by God, either in the records that state the information or in records where we see God's interaction directly being recorded. Most Christians also believe that the entire work of the Bible is a revealed collection, with purpose for what's there. So it's often studied as if it were written by one person in a single sitting, from beginning to end - ie "God is the author".
For someone to shove the Bible in someone else's face and say "Believe it!" is a pretty ineffective way to encourage a person to "have faith". Many Christians believe that's the highest form of faith, to simply believe what someone else tells them the Bible says and means and then to just believe it.
IMO, a lot of people then wrap their own experience around what they think or have been told the Bible says and validate it, explain it, make it "true" through emperical methods - ending up with activities and results that prove something that wasn't understood to begin with.
It's the old - "People used to believe the earth was flat" thing. What they did proved it, as they understood it. But that's been proven wrong. Sort of, I guess it could be argued that the earth is flat when you're walking on it, allowing for some ups and downs here and there. So while the perspective might be perfectly true to the person doing the walking who says "it's flat", if you were the earth you'd say "I'm round".
When I read the Bible I've asked myself that kind of question so many times - am I understanding what I read based on what I expect or want it to say, or am I allowing it to speak for itself?
Easter, and the resurrection really are where the rubber meets the road in this line of thinking. Christ being "raised from the dead" after 3 days was an event completely outside human involvment. No one expected it or was waiting anxiously at the gravesite to see Jesus on that morning. Mary was there mourning His passing. When she ran back to tell others what she'd seen she said "I've seen the Lord!" I can imagine her feelings and the reactions of the others that heard that.
To believe it or not to believe it? Those who did believed it because they saw Him finally. Later and now - others believe this happened too, not having seen Him face to face.
Yet when a person chooses to look at that information they are putting themselves in the same place that those people were. Everything says He's dead, and now we might also think, if He ever lived at all.
Logic says He can't be. If we're to proceed forward at all He has to be alive, He has to show Himself to those who are there whether they're looking for a dead man or a living one. Either He is or He isn't - at that point it becomes something that my expectation can't produce - God and Christ have to do their part. They have to speak for themselves.
Arriving at that point solely through faith is an interesting proposition but it doesn't produce a living Savior. My "faith" doesn't do it, regardless of how much some people might admire that approach. God and Christ have to be "real" for faith to be rewarded. I think it's the same whether it's reason or faith that brings us to that point - the next phase is still the same.
I love it when what you're saying happens. The best we can do is go with it, proceed, move forward. Enjoy. :)
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blarney
HCW,
And Jesus also said we are gods.
This is why I take a rather panantheistic (not to be confused with pantheistic) view, rather than God and Jesus being the guy, or guys out there somewhere.
Perhaps that is how I can reconcile Jesus being God, yet the son of God, and yet still be somewhat unitarian in my views.
My $.02 ~ Blarney
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Bolshevik
Jesus Christ is not a hummingbird.
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templelady
My belief system says we worship Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ in my belief system, as I posted earlier, is the personage usually referred to as God in the Old Testement since Heavenly Father could no longer converse directly with man because of sin.
We are to believe and pray to Heavenly Father, God, who is the creator of this universe and all that is in it as well as being the father of us all.
We are to believe that Jesus Christ is the incarnated Son of God, who came to earth and led a sinless live, took the sins of the world; past, present and future; upon hiimself in Gethsemene, was beaten and tortured as punishment for those sins, permitted Himself to die upon the Cross and then be resurrected so as to break the bonds of death and permit eternal life to become possible.
On our parts we are expected to try our best to follow in Christ's footsteps and lead the most sinless life we can-
Personally I find the debate of --Is Jesus Christ God as in Heavenly Father being GOd etc etc etc-- to be a device of Satan so that people are distracted from perfecting their personal walk by having thenm engage in discussions which in no way expands their understanding of Heavenly Fathers will.
Does that mean I think these discussions shouldn't take place--Absolutly not I think trying to understand all aspects of one's faith is very important --what I am talking about is the believers; that get so wrapped up in trying to convert people to their point of view on this, or any similar topic; for who the conversion of people to their belief on one issue becomes their spritual goal.
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ImSunny2
Wow, Socks. . . right on!
That is exactly where I got -- I realized that for me to just take someone's word on all this was quite stupid. I decided to find out for myself and let God and Christ show me the way and of course I'm not disappointed in my expectations.
There are trinitarians and Christians. I don't see how trinitarians can call themselves Christians and trinitarians don't recognize those of us who believe Christ is the Son, not God the son, as Christians. They follow and believe in the trinity -- hence the name.
In my humble opinion from what I've learned, the trinity is a doctrine of devils. Also, it's mainstream so-called Christianity. Christ didn't go with the majority -- I think I'll pass on that myself.
Anyway, here's to learning.
:)
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TheInvisibleDan
I would post this in the Easter "He Is Risen!" thread, but it was Sock's post and most particularly the event of Jesus' resurrection being "where the rubber hits the road" that compels me to pose this hypothetical question:
-Hypothetically - to everyone here (pretend we're in an alternate universe) -
Had Jesus' resurrection not been part of the Gospel-
would anyone here had still followed and lived their lives according to his teachings (e.g. "Sermon on the Mount")?
Remove Jesus' resurrection from the scenario -would his sayings and teachings elsewhere be rendered ineffective, powerless and unworthy of bothering oneself with?
I think it interesting that there were a few early Christian Gospels which comprised exclusively of his sayings, with the complete absence of any narrative depicting Jesus' story or events.
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socks
Hi imsunny2 - interesting thoughts. Labels - we have enough of them to be sure. Christian, Trinitarian, Unitarian, Fundamentalist, Conservative Right-Wing- Buffalo-Wing.
Q: How many Unitarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: 3. God has a sense of humor!
-equal time-
Q: How many Trinitarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: was it manufactured post or pre-Vatican ll ?
Oh, I'm cracking myself up.
Danny, your question is innerstin'. Thomas Jefferson is one comes to mind who approached it that way. Didn't he view the gospels and the teachings of Jesus as the basis for a moral and ethical belief system? His own views on the "trinity" get quoted by Non-Trinni's, as he didn't "believe" in it, but he didn't believe in the God/Christ/Redeemer part of any of it.
Taking what Jesus is recorded as saying and doing would be powerful, IMO. Some things bring up more questions, the parables for instance seem to beg for more clarification at times. There are single solid concepts that stand as is, "universal" ideas. Is it the gospel of Thomas that is a/one of a collection of the "sayings" of Jesus. Forget which now.
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Bolshevik
Dear Baby Jesus, Dear sweet baby Jesus, Dear sweet christmas Jesus, dear sweet swaddled up tender juicy baby Jesus,
thank you so much for milk duds, and beer, and racecars, and my sons, Walker . . And Texas Ranger.
Oh, dear baby Jesus, and thank you for my SMOKIN' HOT WIFE, baby Jesus, yeah baby Jesus
Thankyou, Thank you, Thank you. . .
. . . Talledega Jesus
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T-Bone
Nandon and Groucho have made a great point here…Why do I study the Bible? Why do I look into who Jesus Christ was…is? It used to be about getting a lot of knowledge - even after I left TWI. But over the years I've tended to see the Bible more as an instrument of the Holy Spirit to persuade me to love God and my neighbor – and not as something to satisfy my intellectual curiosity. After thinking about these two posts – some Scripture came to mind:
Matthew 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven…" I think that implies the kingdom of heaven is accessible to anyone – regardless of intelligence level. Because I think it involves something everyone is capable of at some level – love. As in the following verses,
Matthew 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments…Jesus said all the Scripture that existed at the time hung on…was anchored by…supported by…two principles – love for God and neighbor.
John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another…We think we can determine who is a disciple of Jesus by finding out their doctrine, "does it line up with the Word?" – you know the routine. Jesus said the telltale indicator is the genuine love that believers live by.
I Corinthians 8:1 Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up…Don't think I need to comment on that.
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Belle
Most excellent - all three of you!! I didn't even look at this thread because the question is a moot point, imo, and I'm not going to waste my time on these kinds of questions anymore.
Nandon - those are the only really important questions, aren't they?
Groucho - I agree. Who wants a God who expects people to be Rhodes Scholars and jump through hoops for him?
T-Bone - Those have AGAIN become my favorite Bible verses in these past few years. Funny, they used to be prior to my involvement with TWI, too.
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