Can you have a relationship with Jesus and not believe in the Trinity? If you don't believe the Trinity, you don't pray to Jesus, so there can't be a relationship can there? (forgive me if I've derailed)
I think your question was relevent and not at all a derail.
I have a special relationship with both my parents even though they are two distinctly different individuals.
Maybe "relationship" isn't the best word to describe what TWI devalued regarding Jesus.
There was always an inordinate emphasis placed on Christ Jesus (the resurrected one) and very little discussion of Jesus Christ(the man). Trinity or no trinity, we learned very little about Jesus, the man , and instead talked about how we ourselves took his place on Earth after the ascention(to the extent that we represented The Word, as Jesus Christ WAS The Word)
What could possibly be so wrong with reading the gospels and learning how Jesus handled himself in day to day life?
Yet, that is not the approach that was taken in TWI(at least during my involvement which was primarily in the '70's and early '80's.)
Personally,I believe in praying to God with Jesus being my advocate.
But again, I think that maybe that discussion is just a red herring diverting us from coming into a knowledge of Jesus, a man just like us in so many ways.
Thanks, I never really thought of Jesus Christ being reduced in importance in twi, but definitely there was lot's of Trinitarian bashing,
but I have noticed in other churches placing emphasis on having a relationship with JC/God. For me, I think the issue has a lot to do with distinction between faith and believing. (If there is or is not a difference I'm not sure.) Other christians talk of faith in a way that emphasis a trust and relationship. With believing and twi, it was more about you and your effort to live up to the standard of the Word,
Maybe I've crossed a few topics here but I think they're all related. I'm still trying to work this out in my head.
imsunny2, if you've had some time to read this weekend, I hope you're enjoying it! I found Armstrong's writing to be easy to read and hope it's the same for you.
Easter's on it's way! I was at a service this morning and it was great, looking from remembering Jesus's death towards what's to come - next! I was going to say, not sure what others have planned but participating in an "Easter Sunday" service with others is a powerful experience for us, and if there's a place with family or friends you can go I'd encourage it. Theology aside, slightly, someplace where you can celebrate the Resurrection with others - can't beat it.
I was reading an online interview/discussion between Bill Moyers and Karen Armstrong, on PBS. This quote string hit me as they discussed certain kinds of "religion" -
ARMSTRONG:Yes. Yes. Well, this is ... this is bad religion. Compassion is not a popular virtue. Very often when I talk to religious people, and mention how important it is that compassion is the key, that it's the sine-qua-non of religion, people look kind of balked, and stubborn sometimes, as much to say, what's the point of having religion if you can't disapprove of other people? And sometimes we use religion just to back up these unworthy hatreds, because we're frightened too.
MOYERS:Fear?
ARMSTRONG:There's great fear. We fear that if we're not in control, other people will cut us down to size, and so we hit out first.
From the beginning, violence was associated with religion, but the advanced religions, and I'm talking about Buddhism, Hinduism, monotheism, the Hebrew prophets, they insisted that you must transcend this violence, you must not give in to this violence, but you must learn to recognize that every single other human being is sacred.
MOYERS:That's what we're taught when ... growing up, you know, Jesus loves the little children. All the children of the world, red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight. Jesus loves the little children of the world. But as soon as they grow up, they go for each other's throats.
------------
I value the level of discussion that goes on here at GS, where different ideas are set forth with enthusiasm. I'm glad to see we don't "go for each other's throats", while speaking our convictions. I'm not trying to speak for everyone, but I do believe that at the base level we all recognize that each person is, if not "sacred", equally important and valued in God's eye. If there is purpose to life we all stand to benefit from pursuing it as best we know and can and helping others if we can.
Yes, I picked up a copy and am in the process of reading it. It's going to take me more than a weekend but what I've seen so far is great and some reminding of things I knew but forgot.
This whole thing has been eye-opening for me. I have not picked up my Bible since I left in 2000. Perhaps this has been God's way of showing me I need to get my head back in there. One thing is for sure, I still believe what I believed. I think that's good.
Someone here wrote (I'm paraphrasing) "As long as you are walking in the steps of Jesus Christ, and following his lead, what should it matter?" That's comforting.
It just threw me -- I haven't been told I was going to hell in a long long time. . . fear, it's all fear based. What about love??
I'm very glad this forum is here. It gave me a place to go to vent my anger and hurt and read about other people's journeys. Many times I was drunk and wanting to do drugs.
But I'm sober now and have a lot of healing under my belt.
About 11 years ago, an event occured while I was on a vacation with my family, that was one of the most meaningful things to ever happen "to" me or for me. Afterwards while thinking about it over and over the words "Good is where you find it" floated through my thoughts and they stuck, like a ton of bricks. So much so it brought me to tears again and again.
The simplicity of those words was powerful, and they have remained as a kind of proverb for me. Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes the very thing I'm needing or looking for is right in front of me, or around the next corner or closer than I know at the time. I'm not recognizing it, but Good is coming, God is at work, life is moving forward...
Seeing it I might think "you're not supposed to be here!"..."that's not supposed to be that way!"... and miss it or ignore it. Sometimes though those kinds of things can't be missed, they're so plain. They simply are what they are, and the who-what-when-where isn't even a factor. There's no question about it being good and what I need. All that remains is to thank God, acutely aware that Something Good has come my way. Me! Least of all me, but most of all me. Why not me, y'know? :)
I feel that one could have a relationship with JC as well as God and still be a unitarian, but perhaps not a biblical unitarian. I think that they elevate the Bible over Jesus or God, which, in my view, is idolatry.
I'm not sure if I am in total agreement with either position. I believe that Jesus is one with God, and that he prayed for us to be one with him.
I think that Jesus had preexistence with God, but I think that possibly we too had preexistence with him.
All in all, I think that there's a lot of good fellowship to be had among trinitarians, but I've also seen a strain among some because there is questioning going on about the word "trinity" not being in the Bible. So, some think that they might have it wrong in some way.
Yes, I feel we can talk to either Jesus or God.
Still, if one were to be seeking fellowship, I would suggest trinitarians over unitarians, by virtue of the fact that they seem to have a real relationship with Jesus and God. Unitarians seem to have more of an ax to grind, IMO.
Heavenly Father is GOD Almighty the creator and father of us all as well as all the universe-It is he to whom we opwe all reverence and allegence and to whom we pray.
Jesus Christ is his son- Jesus Chrsit at the directiopn of Heavenly Father made the earth "all things through him were made". After Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden and brought sin into the world Heavenly Father could no longer talk to man face to face because Heavenly Father cannot be present where sin exists Jesus Christ even before his fleshly incarnation became the mediater between HeavenlyFather who is perfect and sinful man. Thus when the OT speaks of God speaking with man it is actully talking about Jesus Christ-which means that Jesus Christ is the personage that is translated God in the old testement. that explains the passages where God speaks of what God wants in the third person. it is actually Jesus Christ (God)saying what Heavenly Father (God)wants.
Then Jesus Christ comes to earth in the flesh, still the mediator between man and God.
When through his suffering in Gesthemene and at the hands of Rome and then his crucifixtion he cleanses the world from sin and breaks the bonds of death. The Holy Ghost comes and man again has a direct connection to Heavenly Father.
Thus we pray to Heavenly father through the conduit provided by theHoly Ghost and we pray in the name of Jesus Christ to procalaim to Heavenly Father that we accept Jesus Christ and the attoinment he made for us.
I apologize if this has already been discussed -- if it has, perhaps someone can point me in the right direction.
I didn't believe he was before the way. . . but was I brainwashed beyond repair? Am I going to hell because I believe him to be God's son and not God in the flesh?
This is starting to keep me awake at night.
I don't want to be possessed by a trinitarian devil spirit. . .
We humans can see the Word anyway we choose to. How can I know for sure?
Someone please help.
Is Jesus God....
Who cares?
It's an idiotic religious doctrine that someone made up to divide us.
It's like someone asking me if I love my Dad more than my Mom... Its ridiculous.
Jesus is Jesus, he did what he did, God is God, he did what he did... maybe they are the same on some level, maybe they aren't.
Don't let religion make you think you're going to be possesed by a devil spirit, especially TWI...
IMPORTANT LIFE QUESTIONS:
How do you treat yourself/people?
How do you live everday of your life?
Are you positive, do you try your best?
IMPORTANT RELIGIOUS QUESTION: (if you are a christian)
Do you love God?
Do you love Jesus?
Do you believe Rom.10:9,10 (that is thou shalt confess with thine mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved)?
Don't be scared by tricky religous stuff... no matter how many times I hear both sides to the "is jesus god" argument, I can see that both sides have valid points... therefore I conclude that it is a stupid argument/debate/discussion-whatever, that was created to divide people up into groups.
Jesus Christ is not God?! Yeah.. well, guess he never read Hebrews where God our Father, says unto His son, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom..'
Oh well, so much for words!
Course, I think, and really, you know, it's just thoughts, so no emphasis on mine being better than anyone else's here.. But I think the word 'God' is what causes too many problems. How is it that the verse in Hebrews can also be said in the Old Testament to someone else? How can the word 'God' (Elohoim) refer to so many different things in the Bible, and still carry with it the same meaning people assume when they hear it. God.. Oh yeah, the one true God that has power and dominion over all, its capitlized like English you know! Oh well, I don't think that's even almost the Hebrew understanding of the word, God.. El.. Two root words, Great/Mighty/Strong - Ruler/Athority.. Could just about describe so many things! Yet our minds must run to the one thing! Must be that monotheism that took control that says there is only one God.. Well, not that there isn't (that I believe). But that's because I believe there is only one who has Great power and authority over ALL things, and as Romans 13 says, those whom have power and authority have so because HE gave it to them. So, sure, one that trumps them all, but many others that have great power and authority given them aka a God in the Hebrew sense of the word (it was originally written to Hebrews wasn't it?)! The true God who gave all power and authority to His son.. Gave power and authority to certain men throughout all history, so whats the problem with calling them theos or elohoim? And just as Jesus prayed that as He and the Father are one, that we should be one, so however they are one, and we are to be one with them, I really doubt the different views make much of a difference.
Yeah, maybe we just haven't asked them personally what the answer was! Jesus did say I will be with you till the end, and that where two or more are gathered, there he will be. So I'm sure he desires a personal relationship with us, and I doubt it is any different than having a relationship with our Heavenly Father even though neither are right in front of our eyes! They are both with us, both will not leave nor forsake us, so we ought to be able to talk with them both. So how can one not have a relationship with them if you have the unitarian view? The trinitarian view, still views them as separate persons, so you still got two! (Just one essence. Umm however one defines that.. God essence?! lol teachnically if by the Hebrew word God, it fits both unitarian and trinitarian views)..
Oh well, nothing worth splitting hairs so we can know the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ as well as our Lord.
Eph 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings..."
You are much more full of yourself than full of a sound argument. Jesus' John 17 prayer is not that his disciples will become one with him in the same sense that he is one with his Father. His prayer is that they become one with one another, similarly as he is one with his Father. The oneness Jesus is asking for seems to be oneness in some relational sense rather than oneness in the sense of shared being or ontological equality.
Hmmm....
John 17:11 says quite simply...
"Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."
I never said, "... that his disciples will become one with him..."
I was referring to the verse above, "that they may be one as we are."
Jesus was speaking specifically of the 12 apostles in v:11, then he speaks of "us" later in the prayer,
v:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word... (v:21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe..."
... that I am, In fact, you (God, the father) and you are me (Jesus, the son).... because they (my present and future deciples that you gave me are united within themselves.
Yeah, right.
Funny how so much criticism of a person's post here at the cafe, is so often preceded by a personal slam, ("...full of yourself.") Then the critic so often puts words into the mouth of the "critic-ee." Then "proves" the "critic-ee" - - "wrong" by himself saying something the person NEVER even said.
...seems to be oneness in some relational sense rather than oneness in the sense of shared being or ontological equality.
Statements like that seem to be, to me, what originally inspired me to don my former screen name, "K.I.S.S."
Just WHICH "relational sense" do you think Jesus was talking about?
Plus. The whole "shared being" thing is something trinitarians keep in the picture. Your point of believers having the same relationship w/ each other as Jesus has w/God is PRECISELY my point in bringing up this verse.
If we have the same realtionship w/ each other as Jesus has w/ God and Jesus IS God, then aren't we (believers, Jesus' deciples) all each other- as in one and the same although we are separate?
They are both with us, both will not leave nor forsake us, so we ought to be able to talk with them both. So how can one not have a relationship with them if you have the unitarian view? The trinitarian view, still views them as separate persons, so you still got two! (Just one essence. Umm however one defines that.. God essence?! lol teachnically if by the Hebrew word God, it fits both unitarian and trinitarian views)..
This, in my view is why the argument has fourished for well over 1-THOUSAND-years.
This is also why I no longer rescribe to the (TWI inspired) position that one MUST (or your eternal life is at stake) choose one or the other (BTW the ONLY right position being that JC abso-freakin'-lutely is NOT God).
The whole idea of the one body of christ, in my view accomplishes Jesus' prayer in John.
We absolutely ARE one with another in the body of Christ AND we are absolutely members in particular.
They are both with us, both will not leave nor forsake us, so we ought to be able to talk with them both.
Agreed.
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.
the riches... which is Christ in you, the Hope of glory....
The whole God being totally united w/Jesus concept is completely undeniable via scripture. Isn't it?
Isn't there also a direct scriptural corelation between Jesus' being united w/ God and us ("the born again believers" - the body of Christ - the bride) being united w/ each other?
Personally, I no longer have a problem w/trinitarians. I can't deny their arguments, only the conclusion. "They say when speaking of Jesus throught out the scriptures.... "therefore he's God." I say, often of the same scriptures, "...therefore he's JUST the son of God, yet we totally agree when we speak of the relationship between the "two."
I figure, at this point, since we're "all" united what's the sense of separating ourselves (as someone mentioned earlier) by arguing over it?
It's an idiotic religious doctrine that someone made up to divide us.
I think you are partly right.
maybe completely right if I catch your drift correctly.
I think people care and I think it is important...as are many things related to the knowing of God and his Son.
To the extent people can discuss it reasonably and not judge each other, I don't think it is an idiotic subject.
But you're right about it being a divider. And I get the impression that you as well would go in for a reasonable discussion of the subject. But since people often get so worked up about it to the point of division, then I can see your "who cares" remark very well.
I never believed Jesus is God, even before TWI, and desite being raised in the Methodist Church. Honestly, my first though upon finding about Jesus Christ is not God...the book and TWI doctrine...was like...what else is new?
I've seen too much of God working in people to think someone could not be saved, or to think that someone could be disqualified from being a Godly person, just because he/she belies that jesus is/is not God.
For a little while after being yanked from TWI, I drifted back nto the Methodist Church. In a membership "class", the senior pastor of the church here in Sushi's favorite TWI city let it briefly but plainly slip that he didn't believe JC is God. He didn't elaborate and I wasn't about to press the issue.
And VPW in the book basically admits that in his early years as a Christian he believed JC was God, as did several with whom he interacted, which means believing JC was God did not disqualify them.
I don't believe we have to discard the subject. If it divides so much, I can definitely see where you are coming from on your remarks. I just dont want to have to discard all discussion about jesus Christ, God, and things related. I'm just an optimist; thinking that people can have fruitfil dicussions about these things. If it comes to people comdemming others for wat they believe about it, well OK, that's idiotic.
Something I'm realizing in all this is that my love and relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ was almost killed! Yikes!
Looking back -- going out witnessing -- our focus was not Jesus Christ it was trying to get people in the class. How many Sunday night teachings or corp teachings can you remember that focused on our relationship with our Lord? The focus was always that he was not God. Okay, I got that, but what about him being our Lord? The one whose footsteps I'm supposed to walk in? The one who is God's example for us to follow? The one who died for us?
When I got born again in my teens it was because I learned what Jesus did for me. I had excitement and wanted to tell the whole world about him. The time I spent in the way almost put that light out.
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waysider
Sorry, Son of the Master
I misunderstood the cruxt of the thread.
Denying us of a relationship with Jesus was, indeed, one of the more damaging things that was foisted on us in TWI.(IMO)
Focusing on the existance or non existance of the trinity certainly served to sidetrack us from that issue.(again,IMO)
We sure weren't afraid to sing "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Sweetest name I know."
Guess we just neglected to think about what that meant.
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Bolshevik
SOM, Waysider,
Can you have a relationship with Jesus and not believe in the Trinity? If you don't believe the Trinity, you don't pray to Jesus, so there can't be a relationship can there? (forgive me if I've derailed)
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dmiller
No problem in my thinking/ understanding.
I don't understand the difficulty in elevating BOTH,
to the positions that they hold.
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waysider
Bolshevik
I think your question was relevent and not at all a derail.
I have a special relationship with both my parents even though they are two distinctly different individuals.
Maybe "relationship" isn't the best word to describe what TWI devalued regarding Jesus.
There was always an inordinate emphasis placed on Christ Jesus (the resurrected one) and very little discussion of Jesus Christ(the man). Trinity or no trinity, we learned very little about Jesus, the man , and instead talked about how we ourselves took his place on Earth after the ascention(to the extent that we represented The Word, as Jesus Christ WAS The Word)
What could possibly be so wrong with reading the gospels and learning how Jesus handled himself in day to day life?
Yet, that is not the approach that was taken in TWI(at least during my involvement which was primarily in the '70's and early '80's.)
Personally,I believe in praying to God with Jesus being my advocate.
But again, I think that maybe that discussion is just a red herring diverting us from coming into a knowledge of Jesus, a man just like us in so many ways.
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Bolshevik
dMiller,
So you can pray to Jesus and God and believe they are not one and the same?
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Bolshevik
Waysider,
Thanks, I never really thought of Jesus Christ being reduced in importance in twi, but definitely there was lot's of Trinitarian bashing,
but I have noticed in other churches placing emphasis on having a relationship with JC/God. For me, I think the issue has a lot to do with distinction between faith and believing. (If there is or is not a difference I'm not sure.) Other christians talk of faith in a way that emphasis a trust and relationship. With believing and twi, it was more about you and your effort to live up to the standard of the Word,
Maybe I've crossed a few topics here but I think they're all related. I'm still trying to work this out in my head.
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socks
Hi Katz and Kiddeez!
Invisible One, waddya got? I'm always interested. :)
imsunny2, if you've had some time to read this weekend, I hope you're enjoying it! I found Armstrong's writing to be easy to read and hope it's the same for you.
Easter's on it's way! I was at a service this morning and it was great, looking from remembering Jesus's death towards what's to come - next! I was going to say, not sure what others have planned but participating in an "Easter Sunday" service with others is a powerful experience for us, and if there's a place with family or friends you can go I'd encourage it. Theology aside, slightly, someplace where you can celebrate the Resurrection with others - can't beat it.
I was reading an online interview/discussion between Bill Moyers and Karen Armstrong, on PBS. This quote string hit me as they discussed certain kinds of "religion" -
ARMSTRONG: Yes. Yes. Well, this is ... this is bad religion. Compassion is not a popular virtue. Very often when I talk to religious people, and mention how important it is that compassion is the key, that it's the sine-qua-non of religion, people look kind of balked, and stubborn sometimes, as much to say, what's the point of having religion if you can't disapprove of other people? And sometimes we use religion just to back up these unworthy hatreds, because we're frightened too.
MOYERS: Fear?
ARMSTRONG: There's great fear. We fear that if we're not in control, other people will cut us down to size, and so we hit out first.
From the beginning, violence was associated with religion, but the advanced religions, and I'm talking about Buddhism, Hinduism, monotheism, the Hebrew prophets, they insisted that you must transcend this violence, you must not give in to this violence, but you must learn to recognize that every single other human being is sacred.
MOYERS: That's what we're taught when ... growing up, you know, Jesus loves the little children. All the children of the world, red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight. Jesus loves the little children of the world. But as soon as they grow up, they go for each other's throats.
------------
I value the level of discussion that goes on here at GS, where different ideas are set forth with enthusiasm. I'm glad to see we don't "go for each other's throats", while speaking our convictions. I'm not trying to speak for everyone, but I do believe that at the base level we all recognize that each person is, if not "sacred", equally important and valued in God's eye. If there is purpose to life we all stand to benefit from pursuing it as best we know and can and helping others if we can.
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dmiller
Yes. :)
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Bolshevik
please expound if you will.
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ImSunny2
Socks and everyone.
Yes, I picked up a copy and am in the process of reading it. It's going to take me more than a weekend but what I've seen so far is great and some reminding of things I knew but forgot.
This whole thing has been eye-opening for me. I have not picked up my Bible since I left in 2000. Perhaps this has been God's way of showing me I need to get my head back in there. One thing is for sure, I still believe what I believed. I think that's good.
Someone here wrote (I'm paraphrasing) "As long as you are walking in the steps of Jesus Christ, and following his lead, what should it matter?" That's comforting.
It just threw me -- I haven't been told I was going to hell in a long long time. . . fear, it's all fear based. What about love??
I'm very glad this forum is here. It gave me a place to go to vent my anger and hurt and read about other people's journeys. Many times I was drunk and wanting to do drugs.
But I'm sober now and have a lot of healing under my belt.
God is good always.
:) :) :)
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Bolshevik
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socks
God is good always. :) Yeah!
About 11 years ago, an event occured while I was on a vacation with my family, that was one of the most meaningful things to ever happen "to" me or for me. Afterwards while thinking about it over and over the words "Good is where you find it" floated through my thoughts and they stuck, like a ton of bricks. So much so it brought me to tears again and again.
The simplicity of those words was powerful, and they have remained as a kind of proverb for me. Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes the very thing I'm needing or looking for is right in front of me, or around the next corner or closer than I know at the time. I'm not recognizing it, but Good is coming, God is at work, life is moving forward...
Seeing it I might think "you're not supposed to be here!"..."that's not supposed to be that way!"... and miss it or ignore it. Sometimes though those kinds of things can't be missed, they're so plain. They simply are what they are, and the who-what-when-where isn't even a factor. There's no question about it being good and what I need. All that remains is to thank God, acutely aware that Something Good has come my way. Me! Least of all me, but most of all me. Why not me, y'know? :)
And why not, most of all, you? :)
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ImSunny2
Socks,
You are very kind. :)
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blarney
I feel that one could have a relationship with JC as well as God and still be a unitarian, but perhaps not a biblical unitarian. I think that they elevate the Bible over Jesus or God, which, in my view, is idolatry.
I'm not sure if I am in total agreement with either position. I believe that Jesus is one with God, and that he prayed for us to be one with him.
I think that Jesus had preexistence with God, but I think that possibly we too had preexistence with him.
All in all, I think that there's a lot of good fellowship to be had among trinitarians, but I've also seen a strain among some because there is questioning going on about the word "trinity" not being in the Bible. So, some think that they might have it wrong in some way.
Yes, I feel we can talk to either Jesus or God.
Still, if one were to be seeking fellowship, I would suggest trinitarians over unitarians, by virtue of the fact that they seem to have a real relationship with Jesus and God. Unitarians seem to have more of an ax to grind, IMO.
Sorry for misunderstanding the thread.
My best,
Blarney
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templelady
Heavenly Father is GOD Almighty the creator and father of us all as well as all the universe-It is he to whom we opwe all reverence and allegence and to whom we pray.
Jesus Christ is his son- Jesus Chrsit at the directiopn of Heavenly Father made the earth "all things through him were made". After Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden and brought sin into the world Heavenly Father could no longer talk to man face to face because Heavenly Father cannot be present where sin exists Jesus Christ even before his fleshly incarnation became the mediater between HeavenlyFather who is perfect and sinful man. Thus when the OT speaks of God speaking with man it is actully talking about Jesus Christ-which means that Jesus Christ is the personage that is translated God in the old testement. that explains the passages where God speaks of what God wants in the third person. it is actually Jesus Christ (God)saying what Heavenly Father (God)wants.
Then Jesus Christ comes to earth in the flesh, still the mediator between man and God.
When through his suffering in Gesthemene and at the hands of Rome and then his crucifixtion he cleanses the world from sin and breaks the bonds of death. The Holy Ghost comes and man again has a direct connection to Heavenly Father.
Thus we pray to Heavenly father through the conduit provided by theHoly Ghost and we pray in the name of Jesus Christ to procalaim to Heavenly Father that we accept Jesus Christ and the attoinment he made for us.
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nandon
Is Jesus God....
Who cares?
It's an idiotic religious doctrine that someone made up to divide us.
It's like someone asking me if I love my Dad more than my Mom... Its ridiculous.
Jesus is Jesus, he did what he did, God is God, he did what he did... maybe they are the same on some level, maybe they aren't.
Don't let religion make you think you're going to be possesed by a devil spirit, especially TWI...
IMPORTANT LIFE QUESTIONS:
How do you treat yourself/people?
How do you live everday of your life?
Are you positive, do you try your best?
IMPORTANT RELIGIOUS QUESTION: (if you are a christian)
Do you love God?
Do you love Jesus?
Do you believe Rom.10:9,10 (that is thou shalt confess with thine mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved)?
Don't be scared by tricky religous stuff... no matter how many times I hear both sides to the "is jesus god" argument, I can see that both sides have valid points... therefore I conclude that it is a stupid argument/debate/discussion-whatever, that was created to divide people up into groups.
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TrustAndObey
Sounds like a lively discussion here..
Jesus Christ is not God?! Yeah.. well, guess he never read Hebrews where God our Father, says unto His son, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom..'
Oh well, so much for words!
Course, I think, and really, you know, it's just thoughts, so no emphasis on mine being better than anyone else's here.. But I think the word 'God' is what causes too many problems. How is it that the verse in Hebrews can also be said in the Old Testament to someone else? How can the word 'God' (Elohoim) refer to so many different things in the Bible, and still carry with it the same meaning people assume when they hear it. God.. Oh yeah, the one true God that has power and dominion over all, its capitlized like English you know! Oh well, I don't think that's even almost the Hebrew understanding of the word, God.. El.. Two root words, Great/Mighty/Strong - Ruler/Athority.. Could just about describe so many things! Yet our minds must run to the one thing! Must be that monotheism that took control that says there is only one God.. Well, not that there isn't (that I believe). But that's because I believe there is only one who has Great power and authority over ALL things, and as Romans 13 says, those whom have power and authority have so because HE gave it to them. So, sure, one that trumps them all, but many others that have great power and authority given them aka a God in the Hebrew sense of the word (it was originally written to Hebrews wasn't it?)! The true God who gave all power and authority to His son.. Gave power and authority to certain men throughout all history, so whats the problem with calling them theos or elohoim? And just as Jesus prayed that as He and the Father are one, that we should be one, so however they are one, and we are to be one with them, I really doubt the different views make much of a difference.
Yeah, maybe we just haven't asked them personally what the answer was! Jesus did say I will be with you till the end, and that where two or more are gathered, there he will be. So I'm sure he desires a personal relationship with us, and I doubt it is any different than having a relationship with our Heavenly Father even though neither are right in front of our eyes! They are both with us, both will not leave nor forsake us, so we ought to be able to talk with them both. So how can one not have a relationship with them if you have the unitarian view? The trinitarian view, still views them as separate persons, so you still got two! (Just one essence. Umm however one defines that.. God essence?! lol teachnically if by the Hebrew word God, it fits both unitarian and trinitarian views)..
Oh well, nothing worth splitting hairs so we can know the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ as well as our Lord.
Eph 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings..."
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polar bear
Simple ansswer-NO
Never was neve will be. I'm glad some things we were taught make sense.
Didn't Jesus himself get riled when someone called him master. He said there is only one master his father.
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HCW
Hmmm....
John 17:11 says quite simply...
"Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."
I never said, "... that his disciples will become one with him..."
I was referring to the verse above, "that they may be one as we are."
Jesus was speaking specifically of the 12 apostles in v:11, then he speaks of "us" later in the prayer,
v:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word... (v:21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe..."
... that I am, In fact, you (God, the father) and you are me (Jesus, the son).... because they (my present and future deciples that you gave me are united within themselves.
Yeah, right.
Funny how so much criticism of a person's post here at the cafe, is so often preceded by a personal slam, ("...full of yourself.") Then the critic so often puts words into the mouth of the "critic-ee." Then "proves" the "critic-ee" - - "wrong" by himself saying something the person NEVER even said.
Statements like that seem to be, to me, what originally inspired me to don my former screen name, "K.I.S.S."
Just WHICH "relational sense" do you think Jesus was talking about?
Plus. The whole "shared being" thing is something trinitarians keep in the picture. Your point of believers having the same relationship w/ each other as Jesus has w/God is PRECISELY my point in bringing up this verse.
If we have the same realtionship w/ each other as Jesus has w/ God and Jesus IS God, then aren't we (believers, Jesus' deciples) all each other- as in one and the same although we are separate?
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HCW
This, in my view is why the argument has fourished for well over 1-THOUSAND-years.
This is also why I no longer rescribe to the (TWI inspired) position that one MUST (or your eternal life is at stake) choose one or the other (BTW the ONLY right position being that JC abso-freakin'-lutely is NOT God).
The whole idea of the one body of christ, in my view accomplishes Jesus' prayer in John.
We absolutely ARE one with another in the body of Christ AND we are absolutely members in particular.
Sooo....
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HCW
Agreed.
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.
the riches... which is Christ in you, the Hope of glory....
The whole God being totally united w/Jesus concept is completely undeniable via scripture. Isn't it?
Isn't there also a direct scriptural corelation between Jesus' being united w/ God and us ("the born again believers" - the body of Christ - the bride) being united w/ each other?
Personally, I no longer have a problem w/trinitarians. I can't deny their arguments, only the conclusion. "They say when speaking of Jesus throught out the scriptures.... "therefore he's God." I say, often of the same scriptures, "...therefore he's JUST the son of God, yet we totally agree when we speak of the relationship between the "two."
I figure, at this point, since we're "all" united what's the sense of separating ourselves (as someone mentioned earlier) by arguing over it?
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Lifted Up
I think you are partly right.
maybe completely right if I catch your drift correctly.
I think people care and I think it is important...as are many things related to the knowing of God and his Son.
To the extent people can discuss it reasonably and not judge each other, I don't think it is an idiotic subject.
But you're right about it being a divider. And I get the impression that you as well would go in for a reasonable discussion of the subject. But since people often get so worked up about it to the point of division, then I can see your "who cares" remark very well.
I never believed Jesus is God, even before TWI, and desite being raised in the Methodist Church. Honestly, my first though upon finding about Jesus Christ is not God...the book and TWI doctrine...was like...what else is new?
I've seen too much of God working in people to think someone could not be saved, or to think that someone could be disqualified from being a Godly person, just because he/she belies that jesus is/is not God.
For a little while after being yanked from TWI, I drifted back nto the Methodist Church. In a membership "class", the senior pastor of the church here in Sushi's favorite TWI city let it briefly but plainly slip that he didn't believe JC is God. He didn't elaborate and I wasn't about to press the issue.
And VPW in the book basically admits that in his early years as a Christian he believed JC was God, as did several with whom he interacted, which means believing JC was God did not disqualify them.
I don't believe we have to discard the subject. If it divides so much, I can definitely see where you are coming from on your remarks. I just dont want to have to discard all discussion about jesus Christ, God, and things related. I'm just an optimist; thinking that people can have fruitfil dicussions about these things. If it comes to people comdemming others for wat they believe about it, well OK, that's idiotic.
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coolchef
polarbear with all due respect to you, the answer is
I DON"T KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU
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ImSunny2
Something I'm realizing in all this is that my love and relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ was almost killed! Yikes!
Looking back -- going out witnessing -- our focus was not Jesus Christ it was trying to get people in the class. How many Sunday night teachings or corp teachings can you remember that focused on our relationship with our Lord? The focus was always that he was not God. Okay, I got that, but what about him being our Lord? The one whose footsteps I'm supposed to walk in? The one who is God's example for us to follow? The one who died for us?
When I got born again in my teens it was because I learned what Jesus did for me. I had excitement and wanted to tell the whole world about him. The time I spent in the way almost put that light out.
Holy cow. What an eye-opener.
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