Waysider, yes, I recently reread Mere Christianity after 20 years. I thought - wow! Lewis writes so incredibly well, he truly had some kind of ministry in that area. He makes it logical and many unbelievers have come to Christ after reading that book. I enjoyed last year, the movie Narnia - though I hate "kids movies" - which is what I thought it would be, the allegories are outstanding. I was electrified at how Aslan (the lion-redeemer) gave people life. If you get a chance, check it out.
Hi Danny. I really believe that VP and thus, TWI, did not follow the head of the body - Christ.
Over the years, I'll get a thought, an idea, a concept, something seems interesting, I'll start looking it up, and its another wonderful thing God has showed me.
The Word does say, we need no man to teach us. Sure, we can hear teachings, but it is the Lord we look to for our understanding.
TWI worshipped "the word." Much head knowledge, but no foundation to stand on. Christ is the foundation. It wasn't there. VP made himself the foundation. TWI fell.
How could VP have glossed over Christ's life? - except, of course, on easter - as we were told, the Gospels were for our learning, not really written to us.
How could he negate Christ's divinity and turn him into a mere man with an extra special dose of holy spirit. A man, whom we could be just like if we renewed our minds? He brought him down. There is so much about Christ we were never taught - the basis of Christianity.
How could VP have no interest in Revelation? An amazing glorious book - God's plan fulfilled, perfection restored.
How could VP have no interest in where people's souls go after death?
How could VP, instead of telling us to look at Christ and the glorification of us with Christ, tell people "heaven help you at the bema, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes" - he put fear in people of being with Christ.
I agree with corps night - three hours of droning, droning, dro zzzzzzzzzzzzz........ What was the profit? He put the corps to sleep with the Word, turned it from something living to something dry.
Oh well. I just found these books great, lots of food for thought.
How could VP have glossed over Christ's life? - except, of course, on easter - as we were told, the Gospels were for our learning, not really written to us.
How could he negate Christ's divinity and turn him into a mere man with an extra special dose of holy spirit. A man, whom we could be just like if we renewed our minds? He brought him down. There is so much about Christ we were never taught - the basis of Christianity.
I agree, if by "divinity" you mean that Christ was from God. I don't believe that Jesus was in an way a "mere" man. He was supernaturally conceived by God. But I don't believe he is God - he always claimed to be the Son of God.
How could VP have no interest in where people's souls go after death?
I have to disagree here. While VP did a half-a$$ed job of explaining it, I think that if you consider it Scripturally, and look at what others have written about it, the Bible does teach that people are unconscious when they die, and only resurrection will remedy that. I wrote on it in detail here
I agree with you on the rest of your post as well. I encourage you (and anyone reading this) to check out other writings on these subjects.
Hi Mark, don't worry, I play nice :) Unless you get personal and want to insult me. Then I turn the other cheek and go play somewhere else:)
I respectfully disagree with you on death. There too many verses to count, regarding death. I agree the body dies. But, God says he has set eternity in men's hearts (Ecc. 3:11 - I believe, I don't have my bible with me right now). There are too many verses about sorrow, gnashing of teeth, going down into the pit until the resurrection, etc. Christ's "parable" of Lazarus and the rich man - I believe there is a literal place souls who reject God go.
When Christ descended, those in "Abraham's bosom" were ascended with him. The believer, when he dies now will be with him in heaven, yet they do not receive their "new" bodies until the gathering.
Christ's "parable" of Lazarus and the rich man - I believe there is a literal place souls who reject God go.
When Christ descended, those in "Abraham's bosom" were ascended with him. The believer, when he dies now will be with him in heaven, yet they do not receive their "new" bodies until the gathering.
I read someone's point in a book a while back that I thought was sort of interesting. The Author pointed out that he didn't feel that the above story was a parable--but it was more of an actual event. He said that based on the fact that Jesus never used actual names in any of his parables and the point of the story was actually explained without anyone asking Jesus too.
Now I also had another ex twi point out that the Transfiguration says Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus Christ. The bible didn't say an angel impersonating them did that. If they were dead--how could they show up and talk to Jesus?
Conclude what you want since I haven't changed my original beliefs.
Hi Mark, don't worry, I play nice :) Unless you get personal and want to insult me. Then I turn the other cheek and go play somewhere else:)
I respectfully disagree with you on death. There too many verses to count, regarding death. I agree the body dies. But, God says he has set eternity in men's hearts (Ecc. 3:11 - I believe, I don't have my bible with me right now).
The Hebrew word for "eternity" in Ecc 3:11 is olam which is most often used referring to the age to come. We were meant to live forever, but because of sin we don't right now. We die and await the resurrection in the coming age.
There are too many verses about sorrow, gnashing of teeth, going down into the pit until the resurrection, etc.
Exactly! We go down into the "pit" until the resurrection. The pit is sheol in Hebrew and hades in Greek. It is the state of being dead, but is described in several places as a place where there is no consciousness or activity. It is called "sleep" in many references.
Christ's "parable" of Lazarus and the rich man - I believe there is a literal place souls who reject God go.
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man was never meant to be a teaching on what happens after death. The point Jesus was making was, according to verse 31, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." If he meant to say that the dead were actually conscious in another place, it would contradict many other Scriptures. Besides, the parable doesn't describe conscious disembodied souls. Notice the references to Lazarus's finger and the rich man's tongue. Furthermore, if this were literally what happens at death, then the jugment has already happened for everyone that has died; there would then be no need for the return of Christ to judge the world. And what would be the point of reuniting souls with bodies if they have lived in heaven without them? The whole story was meant to make the point that they would not hear even if someone came back from the dead. It was never intended as a teaching on what happens when you die.
When Christ descended, those in "Abraham's bosom" were ascended with him. The believer, when he dies now will be with him in heaven, yet they do not receive their "new" bodies until the gathering.
Nowhere in the Gospels did Jesus ever promise "heaven" as a destination. The rewards are stored up there (Luke 6:23) but he will bring them with him when he returns (Rev. 22:12). What he promised was life in the age to come, on a renewed earth. He referred to this as the coming Kingdom of God.
There is a lot more to this, so rather than rewrite it all, I will link to the page on my website that deals with it.
Mark, I have looked at your website, its a great site, and I have read your article. I still respectfully disagree. Here's my take.
I believe, as you do, the bodies of the dead know nothing, but I do not believe that this is speaking of the soul.
Sheol, or Hades was the place of the conscious existence of the souls and spirits of all the dead, believers and unbelievers who died before the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. This hell had two compartments, torment and paradise with a great gulf between them, as Christ explained in the story of Lazarus. Thus Christ could tell the man next to him, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
When Christ descended after his death, it was a direct invasion of territory that Satan had considered as being his own. His arrival in hell and taking with him the souls of all believers - the firstfruits, emptying hell of the saints, reveals the nature of the spoil he took from Satan. Christ triumphed, it was a direct humiliation of Satan.
This is why the Bible tells us, that up until this time, the devil had the power of death (Heb. 2:14). He was also in charge of the keys of death and hell (Rev. 1:18). The unregenerate are in his power and taken captive of him at his will (II Tim. 2:26). Before Christ's death, Satan had the keys, or the authority, so to speak over hell and the entrance to it, although it does not say he had any power in hell. Whatever his work in connection with fleshly bodies, the spirits and souls of the believers were never in his power and upon death were taken in charge by the angels and carried to paradise (Luke 16:22).
The death of Christ destroyed or brought to nothing "him that had the power of death, that is the devil" (Heb. 2:14). Destroy doesn't mean annihiliation, but more like rendered harmless, useless, worthless. Thus, Christ made a public example of Satan and took the keys, or authority, by which Satan pretended to have authority over the righteous souls, and entering among them announced the freeing of those who had been detained in Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom. Their hearts must have thrilled to see the Saviour they had been waiting for, who was a promise, whom they had never seen, but whom they believed God's promise of a coming Savior, for whom they had died many of them, to finally actually see him coming for them.
Now, before all the angels and creation of the universe was God's plan unfolded. Abraham's Bosom, or paradise was emptied and taken to heaven on the day of his resurrection. That's when he told Mary - don't touch me, I am not yet ascended to my Father. A few hours later he was back with the disciples saying, handle me.
Not only had he used the "keys" of Hell to empty it of all souls of the believers, but he had locked that compartment (paradise, Abraham's Bosom) so that none of his would ever have to spend one moment away from him. Therefore, Christ could say I "have the keys of death and hades." (Rev. 1:17-18).
Here was the fulfillment of his announcement concerning the Church that: The Gates of Hell should never prevail against it (Matt. 16:18). I.e., our bodies may rot, but our purchased, righteous souls, would never, ever descend into hell. Thus, when he ascended, "he led captivity captive" (Eph. 4:8) - death would usher all believers into his presence. We may not have our new bodies yet, but we are in his presence. That is why Paul could say, to be absent from the body would mean to be present with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8), and to depart would mean to be with Christ, which is far better (Phil. 1:23).
We see Christ telling his disciples, "Do not be afraid of him of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt. 10:28). Christ also said, "I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him, who after killing the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you fear him (Lk. 12:5). We see our Lord made a definite distinction between the body and soul.
We read about the "pit" all through the OT. It was a place of shame, of darkness, of gnashing of teeth, where they walk naked and others see their shame (Rev. 16:15), where the worm never dies.
I do not buy VP's doctrine of "annihilation" or "soul sleep."
If we truly have eternal life when we are born again, if when we die, our souls and spirits are extinguished, we truly do not have "eternal life." Because our eternal life dies when we do. That eternal life, the spirit that is in us, now dies. Thus, its not truly eternal, and you are saying we have to wait to get it back again, a second time. It wasn't really "eternal", was it?
all the world's spiritual traditions were born of the need to deal with our mortal experience
regardless of what happened on the surface...all of them had saints and wise folk who eventually came to the same sorts of conclusions
and that is that in order to die well..one must practice dying throughout their life...right now and always
what this looked like is basically increasingly terrifying to the modern mainstream religious and rational minds
because it basically meant practicing being still, shutting up and spending a lot of time in silence in order to understand the nature of the field of where we are all ultimately going
those who practiced were able to basically help other's in their time of suffering..because they were no longer flinching at death with their own egos
and so underneath ALL the traditions were the ones who practiced dying in order to help others die well
this is the way of abraham that Jesus saw was absent
all the mythic language of the era points to this easily recognizable truth
and from time to time, people from many different traditions would get together and realize that this was mutually true
and so the xenophobic issues began to be resolved quite easily
the wars of religious thought are pretty much over once this is realized
the various races could speak to each other and compare notes about how to be a practicing servant to those who were dying
they all agreed that in order to do so..one must practice dying...which was meditation...contemplation...etc...
which is an actual spiritual practice that is well documented in many traditions all over the world for thousands of years
"the mind of Christ" = that state of being that exists beyond mortal life
which is basically empty, clear, invisible and radically free
to "put on the mind of christ" was to sit down, shut up, close yer eyes and practice "playing dead"
"the coming of the lord" = death
this was the most effective and fertile way for one to basically stop being a religious pain in the arse for those who are suffering
this has very little if nothing to do with the moral and theological arguments we are seeped in today
we, as adults, must find a way to shed the way we give so much energy to mere mythical magical ways of reading scripture that have mostly no use at all execpt to engender strife
"the way" had to do with devoting one's self in service to every living being that is also dying
there is no partiality to this way of being
not everyone is obligated to enter such a devotional way of being ... though everyone benefits from understanding it
it is the "end of the road" for spiritual seekers...the point where seeking becomes child's play...simply for having a lesser purpose than serving those who are dying
and no, not because one knows some intellectual truth...but because one can finally rest in the witness of thought itself (which is why it is described in the bible as being beyond thought)
"the witness" = "abraham's rest" = that state of awareness that is eternally already with us
and the way we have twisted the scriptures on all this is incrediblly off the charts causing more trouble in the world than anything i can think of
most all of our modern civilizations are quite screwed in this regard...yet none alive chose such a misinformed position...we are pretty much innocent of it
sorry for such a spastic response...its coming from my gut, mostly
i hope you can understand, Sunesis
it is evident to me now that twi negelected to teach us pretty much what all modern mainstream religion fails to teach us...
mostly because they never knew in the first place
and are most likely not interested in knowing due to a smorgasboard of unnatural and historic fears we have inherited culturally
very sad time in the world
feel free to let me know if it would for me to try and explain more
First of all, let me say that I don't buy VPW's doctrine either. But this isn't just his ideas. And he didn't explain it well either, since he spoke of body, soul, and spirit as being three parts of man. But the Bible defines man as being a whole entity, and is described as a living soul (Gen. 2:7, etc.) which man became when God breathed into him the breath (spirit) of life.
Mark, I have looked at your website, its a great site, and I have read your article. I still respectfully disagree. Here's my take.
I believe, as you do, the bodies of the dead know nothing, but I do not believe that this is speaking of the soul.
The dichotomy of body and soul, and the whole notion of the soul living on after death without a body, is from Greek philosophy, not from the Bible. This isn't just VPW's idea, it's a known historical fact, as you can see in the quotes from the Encyclopedia Brittanica on my web page.
Sheol, or Hades was the place of the conscious existence of the souls and spirits of all the dead, believers and unbelievers who died before the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.
How could they be conscious if they had no brain, since thought and consiousness are functions of a living brain? The verses which speak of no consciousness in sheol do not say that the "soul" went one place and the "body" went someplace else. It says the whole person went to the grave, or sheol. This is how the Hebrew mind always expressed it. The whole person died and the whole person will be raised.
This hell had two compartments, torment and paradise with a great gulf between them, as Christ explained in the story of Lazarus.
This was the common belief in Greek philosophy, but as I pointed out, the story of Lazarus was not meant to be Jesus' teaching on what happens after death. And there is no other Scripture that describes sheol or hades as having two compartments.
Thus Christ could tell the man next to him, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Paradise is defined as a place on earth (Rev. 2:7) which the context of the promise to the thief indicates is synonymous with Christ's Kingdom on earth. One thing VP did have right (and others acknowledge this too) is that the punctuation, "I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise" is the best way to render that verse.
When Christ descended after his death, it was a direct invasion of territory that Satan had considered as being his own. His arrival in hell and taking with him the souls of all believers - the firstfruits, emptying hell of the saints, reveals the nature of the spoil he took from Satan. Christ triumphed, it was a direct humiliation of Satan.
This is why the Bible tells us, that up until this time, the devil had the power of death (Heb. 2:14). He was also in charge of the keys of death and hell (Rev. 1:18). The unregenerate are in his power and taken captive of him at his will (II Tim. 2:26). Before Christ's death, Satan had the keys, or the authority, so to speak over hell and the entrance to it, although it does not say he had any power in hell. Whatever his work in connection with fleshly bodies, the spirits and souls of the believers were never in his power and upon death were taken in charge by the angels and carried to paradise (Luke 16:22).
The death of Christ destroyed or brought to nothing "him that had the power of death, that is the devil" (Heb. 2:14). Destroy doesn't mean annihiliation, but more like rendered harmless, useless, worthless. Thus, Christ made a public example of Satan and took the keys, or authority, by which Satan pretended to have authority over the righteous souls, and entering among them announced the freeing of those who had been detained in Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom. Their hearts must have thrilled to see the Saviour they had been waiting for, who was a promise, whom they had never seen, but whom they believed God's promise of a coming Savior, for whom they had died many of them, to finally actually see him coming for them.
Now, before all the angels and creation of the universe was God's plan unfolded. Abraham's Bosom, or paradise was emptied and taken to heaven on the day of his resurrection. That's when he told Mary - don't touch me, I am not yet ascended to my Father. A few hours later he was back with the disciples saying, handle me.
Not only had he used the "keys" of Hell to empty it of all souls of the believers, but he had locked that compartment (paradise, Abraham's Bosom) so that none of his would ever have to spend one moment away from him. Therefore, Christ could say I "have the keys of death and hades." (Rev. 1:17-18).
There is no Scripture that says any of this this. Christ has the keys to death and hades because he was the first one to be raised from death. As such he is the firstfruits of them who will be raised from the dead when he returns. True, he rendered the devil's power of death useless, because it is no longer the permanent end it once was, because of the possibility of resurrection.
Here was the fulfillment of his announcement concerning the Church that: The Gates of Hell should never prevail against it (Matt. 16:18). I.e., our bodies may rot, but our purchased, righteous souls, would never, ever descend into hell. Thus, when he ascended, "he led captivity captive" (Eph. 4:8) - death would usher all believers into his presence. We may not have our new bodies yet, but we are in his presence. That is why Paul could say, to be absent from the body would mean to be present with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8), and to depart would mean to be with Christ, which is far better (Phil. 1:23).
This is probably one of the most often misquoted verses in the Bible, when it comes to this subject. Paul did not say that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. The verse reads: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Paul believed that this will happen when Christ returns, as can be seen by what he wrote elsewhere, such as I Cor. 15 and Phil. 3.
We see Christ telling his disciples, "Do not be afraid of him of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt. 10:28). Christ also said, "I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him, who after killing the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you fear him (Lk. 12:5). We see our Lord made a definite distinction between the body and soul.
A secondary meaning of the word "soul" (especially with the Greek word psuche) is synonymous wih a person's "life" - as in "my soul" being equivalent to "my life." But it still is not referring to a part of man that lives on without a body after death. In this passage, Jesus was referring to the fact that man can kill the body now, but God would give a new body and a new life to that person at the resurrection, yet if a person is not saved, God could destroy body and soul in the lake of fire.
We read about the "pit" all through the OT. It was a place of shame, of darkness, of gnashing of teeth, where they walk naked and others see their shame (Rev. 16:15), where the worm never dies.
There are two points of confusion here. First of all the word "hell" is translated at different times from two different Greek words. One is hades which is simply the state of being dead, and the other is gehenna, which is the lake of fire in which the second death occurs. The references to "gnashing of teeth" and "the worm dieth not" are not talking about hades (or sheol in the OT) which is simply the unconscious state of being dead. Those references are speaking of gehenna. There will be gnashing of teeeth before they die the second death. The two must be distinguished, which is admittedly hard when both are translated "hell" in the KJV. The second point of confusion is that the verse you refer to (Rev. 16:15) is talking about neither hades nor gehenna, but about evil spirits gathering people for the last great battle.
I do not buy VP's doctrine of "annihilation" or "soul sleep."
I wouldn't either, but many before and after him have expressed these views and backed it up with Scripture.
If we truly have eternal life when we are born again, if when we die, our souls and spirits are extinguished, we truly do not have "eternal life." Because our eternal life dies when we do. That eternal life, the spirit that is in us, now dies. Thus, its not truly eternal, and you are saying we have to wait to get it back again, a second time. It wasn't really "eternal", was it?
The word "eternal" is aionios which means "age-lasting" (Young's) or "belonging to the age" (Bullinger). Eternal life is literally "life in the age to come" and refers to life in God's Kingdom that is coming when this present evil age is over. The Bible tells us that eternal life is the gift of God, and is not inherent in man. When the Lord returns he will grant it to the faithful believers (Rom. 2:7; I Cor. 15:53-54). It is only then that we will gain immortality. Until then those that have died sleep in the dust of the ground, and will be awakened at that time (Daniel 12:2).
Edited by Mark Clarke
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waysider
Sunesis---------Thanks for those references. The C.S. Lewis materials sparked an interest for me.
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likeaneagle
THanks !!!!
Im off to Amazon..Looks like some good reading material
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Danny
Yes TWI was very narrow minded to say the least.
VP handling certain books on his special night was
lacking. Spending 3 hour on a coma that really taught me
to love God. Maybe he did his best I don't know.
I continue my quest. I had a great a ha moment today.
Great books I have read a few of those.
I think it is up to each of us to search out our own salvation
and God will open the eyes of our understanding. Something about
those that huger and thirst.
Not to take from your topic the book Prayer by Phillip Yancy has
open my eyes in a big way.
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Danny
One more basic thing that was done if you don't believe the way i believe your out.
If the hand would say I'm not part of the body kind of deal
So if you were not lock step with their line you could not be part of the body.
All other Christians were out the loop and not part of the body.
I know they gave that special thing the household and family gag me
stupid religious lie.
So yes basic stuff like love God and love your brother
or was it love God the way I say and be a thorn to them.
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Danny
What I was trying to say without the TWI bashing O
was sore lacking because of lack of knowledge.
To walk and lean i had to widen my view.
Learn and love from a greater point.
not that I have achieved but have moved to a much
kinder part of life.
I might be nuttie but I feel good about it.
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Sunesis
Waysider, yes, I recently reread Mere Christianity after 20 years. I thought - wow! Lewis writes so incredibly well, he truly had some kind of ministry in that area. He makes it logical and many unbelievers have come to Christ after reading that book. I enjoyed last year, the movie Narnia - though I hate "kids movies" - which is what I thought it would be, the allegories are outstanding. I was electrified at how Aslan (the lion-redeemer) gave people life. If you get a chance, check it out.
Hi Danny. I really believe that VP and thus, TWI, did not follow the head of the body - Christ.
Over the years, I'll get a thought, an idea, a concept, something seems interesting, I'll start looking it up, and its another wonderful thing God has showed me.
The Word does say, we need no man to teach us. Sure, we can hear teachings, but it is the Lord we look to for our understanding.
TWI worshipped "the word." Much head knowledge, but no foundation to stand on. Christ is the foundation. It wasn't there. VP made himself the foundation. TWI fell.
How could VP have glossed over Christ's life? - except, of course, on easter - as we were told, the Gospels were for our learning, not really written to us.
How could he negate Christ's divinity and turn him into a mere man with an extra special dose of holy spirit. A man, whom we could be just like if we renewed our minds? He brought him down. There is so much about Christ we were never taught - the basis of Christianity.
How could VP have no interest in Revelation? An amazing glorious book - God's plan fulfilled, perfection restored.
How could VP have no interest in where people's souls go after death?
How could VP, instead of telling us to look at Christ and the glorification of us with Christ, tell people "heaven help you at the bema, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes" - he put fear in people of being with Christ.
I agree with corps night - three hours of droning, droning, dro zzzzzzzzzzzzz........ What was the profit? He put the corps to sleep with the Word, turned it from something living to something dry.
Oh well. I just found these books great, lots of food for thought.
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Mark Clarke
I agree, if by "divinity" you mean that Christ was from God. I don't believe that Jesus was in an way a "mere" man. He was supernaturally conceived by God. But I don't believe he is God - he always claimed to be the Son of God.
I have to disagree here. While VP did a half-a$$ed job of explaining it, I think that if you consider it Scripturally, and look at what others have written about it, the Bible does teach that people are unconscious when they die, and only resurrection will remedy that. I wrote on it in detail here
I agree with you on the rest of your post as well. I encourage you (and anyone reading this) to check out other writings on these subjects.
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WordWolf
Hey, Mark.
Gonna hang out and play with the rest of us for a while? It's been too long.
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Mark Clarke
As long as the other kids play nice.
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Sunesis
Hi Mark, don't worry, I play nice :) Unless you get personal and want to insult me. Then I turn the other cheek and go play somewhere else:)
I respectfully disagree with you on death. There too many verses to count, regarding death. I agree the body dies. But, God says he has set eternity in men's hearts (Ecc. 3:11 - I believe, I don't have my bible with me right now). There are too many verses about sorrow, gnashing of teeth, going down into the pit until the resurrection, etc. Christ's "parable" of Lazarus and the rich man - I believe there is a literal place souls who reject God go.
When Christ descended, those in "Abraham's bosom" were ascended with him. The believer, when he dies now will be with him in heaven, yet they do not receive their "new" bodies until the gathering.
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penguin
I read someone's point in a book a while back that I thought was sort of interesting. The Author pointed out that he didn't feel that the above story was a parable--but it was more of an actual event. He said that based on the fact that Jesus never used actual names in any of his parables and the point of the story was actually explained without anyone asking Jesus too.
Now I also had another ex twi point out that the Transfiguration says Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus Christ. The bible didn't say an angel impersonating them did that. If they were dead--how could they show up and talk to Jesus?
Conclude what you want since I haven't changed my original beliefs.
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Mark Clarke
There is a lot more to this, so rather than rewrite it all, I will link to the page on my website that deals with it.
http://www.godskingdomfirst.net/TheDead.htm
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RainbowsGirl
Thanks Sunesis,
I made a copy of the list and I am sure it will be interesting at the least with the reviews you give!
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Sunesis
Mark, I have looked at your website, its a great site, and I have read your article. I still respectfully disagree. Here's my take.
I believe, as you do, the bodies of the dead know nothing, but I do not believe that this is speaking of the soul.
Sheol, or Hades was the place of the conscious existence of the souls and spirits of all the dead, believers and unbelievers who died before the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. This hell had two compartments, torment and paradise with a great gulf between them, as Christ explained in the story of Lazarus. Thus Christ could tell the man next to him, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
When Christ descended after his death, it was a direct invasion of territory that Satan had considered as being his own. His arrival in hell and taking with him the souls of all believers - the firstfruits, emptying hell of the saints, reveals the nature of the spoil he took from Satan. Christ triumphed, it was a direct humiliation of Satan.
This is why the Bible tells us, that up until this time, the devil had the power of death (Heb. 2:14). He was also in charge of the keys of death and hell (Rev. 1:18). The unregenerate are in his power and taken captive of him at his will (II Tim. 2:26). Before Christ's death, Satan had the keys, or the authority, so to speak over hell and the entrance to it, although it does not say he had any power in hell. Whatever his work in connection with fleshly bodies, the spirits and souls of the believers were never in his power and upon death were taken in charge by the angels and carried to paradise (Luke 16:22).
The death of Christ destroyed or brought to nothing "him that had the power of death, that is the devil" (Heb. 2:14). Destroy doesn't mean annihiliation, but more like rendered harmless, useless, worthless. Thus, Christ made a public example of Satan and took the keys, or authority, by which Satan pretended to have authority over the righteous souls, and entering among them announced the freeing of those who had been detained in Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom. Their hearts must have thrilled to see the Saviour they had been waiting for, who was a promise, whom they had never seen, but whom they believed God's promise of a coming Savior, for whom they had died many of them, to finally actually see him coming for them.
Now, before all the angels and creation of the universe was God's plan unfolded. Abraham's Bosom, or paradise was emptied and taken to heaven on the day of his resurrection. That's when he told Mary - don't touch me, I am not yet ascended to my Father. A few hours later he was back with the disciples saying, handle me.
Not only had he used the "keys" of Hell to empty it of all souls of the believers, but he had locked that compartment (paradise, Abraham's Bosom) so that none of his would ever have to spend one moment away from him. Therefore, Christ could say I "have the keys of death and hades." (Rev. 1:17-18).
Here was the fulfillment of his announcement concerning the Church that: The Gates of Hell should never prevail against it (Matt. 16:18). I.e., our bodies may rot, but our purchased, righteous souls, would never, ever descend into hell. Thus, when he ascended, "he led captivity captive" (Eph. 4:8) - death would usher all believers into his presence. We may not have our new bodies yet, but we are in his presence. That is why Paul could say, to be absent from the body would mean to be present with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8), and to depart would mean to be with Christ, which is far better (Phil. 1:23).
We see Christ telling his disciples, "Do not be afraid of him of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt. 10:28). Christ also said, "I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him, who after killing the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you fear him (Lk. 12:5). We see our Lord made a definite distinction between the body and soul.
We read about the "pit" all through the OT. It was a place of shame, of darkness, of gnashing of teeth, where they walk naked and others see their shame (Rev. 16:15), where the worm never dies.
I do not buy VP's doctrine of "annihilation" or "soul sleep."
If we truly have eternal life when we are born again, if when we die, our souls and spirits are extinguished, we truly do not have "eternal life." Because our eternal life dies when we do. That eternal life, the spirit that is in us, now dies. Thus, its not truly eternal, and you are saying we have to wait to get it back again, a second time. It wasn't really "eternal", was it?
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sirguessalot
the basics TWI never knew in the first place...
all the world's spiritual traditions were born of the need to deal with our mortal experience
regardless of what happened on the surface...all of them had saints and wise folk who eventually came to the same sorts of conclusions
and that is that in order to die well..one must practice dying throughout their life...right now and always
what this looked like is basically increasingly terrifying to the modern mainstream religious and rational minds
because it basically meant practicing being still, shutting up and spending a lot of time in silence in order to understand the nature of the field of where we are all ultimately going
those who practiced were able to basically help other's in their time of suffering..because they were no longer flinching at death with their own egos
and so underneath ALL the traditions were the ones who practiced dying in order to help others die well
this is the way of abraham that Jesus saw was absent
all the mythic language of the era points to this easily recognizable truth
and from time to time, people from many different traditions would get together and realize that this was mutually true
and so the xenophobic issues began to be resolved quite easily
the wars of religious thought are pretty much over once this is realized
the various races could speak to each other and compare notes about how to be a practicing servant to those who were dying
they all agreed that in order to do so..one must practice dying...which was meditation...contemplation...etc...
which is an actual spiritual practice that is well documented in many traditions all over the world for thousands of years
"the mind of Christ" = that state of being that exists beyond mortal life
which is basically empty, clear, invisible and radically free
to "put on the mind of christ" was to sit down, shut up, close yer eyes and practice "playing dead"
"the coming of the lord" = death
this was the most effective and fertile way for one to basically stop being a religious pain in the arse for those who are suffering
this has very little if nothing to do with the moral and theological arguments we are seeped in today
we, as adults, must find a way to shed the way we give so much energy to mere mythical magical ways of reading scripture that have mostly no use at all execpt to engender strife
"the way" had to do with devoting one's self in service to every living being that is also dying
there is no partiality to this way of being
not everyone is obligated to enter such a devotional way of being ... though everyone benefits from understanding it
it is the "end of the road" for spiritual seekers...the point where seeking becomes child's play...simply for having a lesser purpose than serving those who are dying
and no, not because one knows some intellectual truth...but because one can finally rest in the witness of thought itself (which is why it is described in the bible as being beyond thought)
"the witness" = "abraham's rest" = that state of awareness that is eternally already with us
and the way we have twisted the scriptures on all this is incrediblly off the charts causing more trouble in the world than anything i can think of
most all of our modern civilizations are quite screwed in this regard...yet none alive chose such a misinformed position...we are pretty much innocent of it
sorry for such a spastic response...its coming from my gut, mostly
i hope you can understand, Sunesis
it is evident to me now that twi negelected to teach us pretty much what all modern mainstream religion fails to teach us...
mostly because they never knew in the first place
and are most likely not interested in knowing due to a smorgasboard of unnatural and historic fears we have inherited culturally
very sad time in the world
feel free to let me know if it would for me to try and explain more
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Mark Clarke
First of all, let me say that I don't buy VPW's doctrine either. But this isn't just his ideas. And he didn't explain it well either, since he spoke of body, soul, and spirit as being three parts of man. But the Bible defines man as being a whole entity, and is described as a living soul (Gen. 2:7, etc.) which man became when God breathed into him the breath (spirit) of life.
The dichotomy of body and soul, and the whole notion of the soul living on after death without a body, is from Greek philosophy, not from the Bible. This isn't just VPW's idea, it's a known historical fact, as you can see in the quotes from the Encyclopedia Brittanica on my web page.How could they be conscious if they had no brain, since thought and consiousness are functions of a living brain? The verses which speak of no consciousness in sheol do not say that the "soul" went one place and the "body" went someplace else. It says the whole person went to the grave, or sheol. This is how the Hebrew mind always expressed it. The whole person died and the whole person will be raised.This was the common belief in Greek philosophy, but as I pointed out, the story of Lazarus was not meant to be Jesus' teaching on what happens after death. And there is no other Scripture that describes sheol or hades as having two compartments.Paradise is defined as a place on earth (Rev. 2:7) which the context of the promise to the thief indicates is synonymous with Christ's Kingdom on earth. One thing VP did have right (and others acknowledge this too) is that the punctuation, "I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise" is the best way to render that verse.There is no Scripture that says any of this this. Christ has the keys to death and hades because he was the first one to be raised from death. As such he is the firstfruits of them who will be raised from the dead when he returns. True, he rendered the devil's power of death useless, because it is no longer the permanent end it once was, because of the possibility of resurrection.This is probably one of the most often misquoted verses in the Bible, when it comes to this subject. Paul did not say that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. The verse reads: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Paul believed that this will happen when Christ returns, as can be seen by what he wrote elsewhere, such as I Cor. 15 and Phil. 3.A secondary meaning of the word "soul" (especially with the Greek word psuche) is synonymous wih a person's "life" - as in "my soul" being equivalent to "my life." But it still is not referring to a part of man that lives on without a body after death. In this passage, Jesus was referring to the fact that man can kill the body now, but God would give a new body and a new life to that person at the resurrection, yet if a person is not saved, God could destroy body and soul in the lake of fire.There are two points of confusion here. First of all the word "hell" is translated at different times from two different Greek words. One is hades which is simply the state of being dead, and the other is gehenna, which is the lake of fire in which the second death occurs. The references to "gnashing of teeth" and "the worm dieth not" are not talking about hades (or sheol in the OT) which is simply the unconscious state of being dead. Those references are speaking of gehenna. There will be gnashing of teeeth before they die the second death. The two must be distinguished, which is admittedly hard when both are translated "hell" in the KJV. The second point of confusion is that the verse you refer to (Rev. 16:15) is talking about neither hades nor gehenna, but about evil spirits gathering people for the last great battle.I wouldn't either, but many before and after him have expressed these views and backed it up with Scripture.The word "eternal" is aionios which means "age-lasting" (Young's) or "belonging to the age" (Bullinger). Eternal life is literally "life in the age to come" and refers to life in God's Kingdom that is coming when this present evil age is over. The Bible tells us that eternal life is the gift of God, and is not inherent in man. When the Lord returns he will grant it to the faithful believers (Rom. 2:7; I Cor. 15:53-54). It is only then that we will gain immortality. Until then those that have died sleep in the dust of the ground, and will be awakened at that time (Daniel 12:2). Edited by Mark ClarkeLink to comment
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