Your questions are basic theological tenants that, sadly, TWI neglected to ever teach.
If you really would like answers to these basic, doctrinal questions, there are great sites on the net that can answer these questions in depth. For something really basic and foundational that would answer your questions, I would recommend C.S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity" - available on Amazon, it is considered a classic. It has profoundly changed many people's lives - including mine.
Donald Barnhouse's books, The Invisible War, is also excellent, one of the best overviews I have ever read on Christianty, and will answer pretty much all of your questions - he's a fascinating read. Also available on Amazon.
If you would like to know if there really is a "hell," "The Invisible Land, Hell's Dominion" is also available on Amazon. Written by a man who had been born again at an early age, but hated God, mocked him, tried to get his friends away from the Bible, you know, you're typical anti-God, I hate him stuff, and then died. I have given this book to several of my Christian friends, and them to their friends, many people have gotten born again after reading this. You may want to check it out - if you seriously want to be given an alternative view of an eternal afterlife without God.
??? I can read books, I often do. I can also chat on a forum. What's your point? Should we have a book list rather than a discussion forum?
I don't personally believe in hell, though I do believe that sooner or later we reap what we sow--might be in life or death or the next life. I don't believe what religious beliefs one has have anything to do with it, though those beliefs can have alot to do with what you sow and reap( or karma or Law of returns)...
I think it is a natural order/experience that all humans face, like birth and death.
My point? Because there's a lot to those questions. Because I've seen you on other threads, twisting this and that and busting people's chops who are sincerely trying to answer your questions. A subtle mockery.
If you really want to know, the info is out there. Maybe you should have a basic knowledge of it, and learn, without others having to do it for you, then we can have a great, informed discussion.
But, since you say you don't believe, why are you expecting others to do your work for you? Educate yourself.
Sunesis, so you've seen me busting people's chops? What am I supposed to do--just say yes you're right, I'll try to see to your way, you're the expert, o most holy one?
So, Lindy's a troll and I'm a chops buster because we don't follow your doctrine? We--gasp!-- have different and uncomfortable views?
I say, good!
Gosh, what about George Aar and Oakspear--are you thinking of a slur to define them, too? There are what, 4 or 5 non Christians on these forums and you can't handle it?
Subtle and mocking...hmmm. I have been called a smart mouth before. It's an aspect of my personality I doubt will go away. I reigned it in during my TWI days--unless I was mocking the non TWI's, which of course was okay. Even when I'm not saying it, I'm thinking it.
Scolding won't work--I've been scolded, more than once, even. You can always use the ignore feature.
Well, Bramble, your intimidation tactics, if that's what they are, are not impressive. You're no different than a million other guys who can do the same.
My point is, why are you even bothering asking these questions if its all BS to you?
Intimidation tactics? I'm just saying it the way I see it.
I would say that perhaps you are painting me with a darker brush than my posts warrant.
But *shrug*
--People can read for themselves, decide for themselves. Maybe that is the real issue--unorthodox ideas might look appealing. I noticed you're only going after the Non Christians. But feel free to point me to a post where that thought is wrong, and you're taking on a Christian.
There's no GSC rule that 'unbelievers' have to shut up, afterall, or that only Christians have the right to talk about Life after Death.
I think it varies depending on the "flavor" of Christian that you're talking to, but other than the rare "universalist" Christian, if you don't meet whatever standard that they believe the bible sets for attaining the afterlife, you will reap the consequenses.
For those who had similar beliefs to TWI, you're just dead, you get judged first in some versions, but you're not tortured in hell, just not eternally alive. Others of course believe that the bible teaches a literal hell and that those who don't make the grade are punished in some fashion, either by hideous torture on one hand, or simply being outside the presence of God on the other. Some take the position that once you "get saved" or "born again" you can't lose eternal life, so that people like you and I who once were Christians get the same eternal life gig as someone who remains a Christian, others believe that you can lose that status.
I have never run into a group other than TWI however, that was so into the devil spirit/possession consequenses of being a non-Christian. In TWI doctrine, not only were you missing out on eternal life, but you were being run by a "five-star general" devil spirit, or maybe you were "born again of the wrong seed". For those who turned away, we were definitely possessed, although still getting the eternal life gold ticket, albeit without "rewards".
Some groups who are more "works" oriented tend to see the possibility that good people of any faith might have a place in heaven.
It has been my experience that Christians are the most tolerant in these matters of Jews, seeing them almost as wayward cousins, Hindus and Buddhists from Hindu and Buddhist countries are viewed in a similar way, although American born Hindus and Buddhists are not looked upon so kindly. Wiccans are equated with satan worshippers and atheists are the lowest of the low.
The problem with not believing Universal Salvation is that most 'christians' think that one must be perfected or 'born again' in this life before death to 'go to heaven'.
The majority of christians do not understand born again or perfection.
It has escaped any spiritual significance and been looked at through a carnal thinking pattern.
Perfection is not a requirement for salvation and eternal life, and living it in good things.
Matthew 19:16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
This man already had eternal life yet still could go further.
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Sunesis
Your questions are basic theological tenants that, sadly, TWI neglected to ever teach.
If you really would like answers to these basic, doctrinal questions, there are great sites on the net that can answer these questions in depth. For something really basic and foundational that would answer your questions, I would recommend C.S. Lewis' book "Mere Christianity" - available on Amazon, it is considered a classic. It has profoundly changed many people's lives - including mine.
Donald Barnhouse's books, The Invisible War, is also excellent, one of the best overviews I have ever read on Christianty, and will answer pretty much all of your questions - he's a fascinating read. Also available on Amazon.
If you would like to know if there really is a "hell," "The Invisible Land, Hell's Dominion" is also available on Amazon. Written by a man who had been born again at an early age, but hated God, mocked him, tried to get his friends away from the Bible, you know, you're typical anti-God, I hate him stuff, and then died. I have given this book to several of my Christian friends, and them to their friends, many people have gotten born again after reading this. You may want to check it out - if you seriously want to be given an alternative view of an eternal afterlife without God.
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Bramble
??? I can read books, I often do. I can also chat on a forum. What's your point? Should we have a book list rather than a discussion forum?
I don't personally believe in hell, though I do believe that sooner or later we reap what we sow--might be in life or death or the next life. I don't believe what religious beliefs one has have anything to do with it, though those beliefs can have alot to do with what you sow and reap( or karma or Law of returns)...
I think it is a natural order/experience that all humans face, like birth and death.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Bramble
God loves you my dear friend
you have asked two good question so I am going to give you my answer
you asked
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the danger in being non Christian?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there no danger in not being a Christian but danger only comes if a person does not live Love
its about a persons heart because may not ever hear about being a Christian
God looks at the heart not the lable
next you asked
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it different if you are an athiest? Jewish? Wiccan?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
none -- only differ comes if you do not live love
A athiest, Jewish, and a Wiccan can have a pure heart and live love to the best they can
next
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it hell? Devil spirits? Bad things happening in Real Life?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
just labels again and its what in the heart
but this is me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Sunesis
My point? Because there's a lot to those questions. Because I've seen you on other threads, twisting this and that and busting people's chops who are sincerely trying to answer your questions. A subtle mockery.
If you really want to know, the info is out there. Maybe you should have a basic knowledge of it, and learn, without others having to do it for you, then we can have a great, informed discussion.
But, since you say you don't believe, why are you expecting others to do your work for you? Educate yourself.
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Bramble
Thanks for your reply Roy. You remind me of a blog post I read not too long ago.
http://www.progressivechristiansuniting.or...an-exclusivism/
Sunesis, so you've seen me busting people's chops? What am I supposed to do--just say yes you're right, I'll try to see to your way, you're the expert, o most holy one?
So, Lindy's a troll and I'm a chops buster because we don't follow your doctrine? We--gasp!-- have different and uncomfortable views?
I say, good!
Gosh, what about George Aar and Oakspear--are you thinking of a slur to define them, too? There are what, 4 or 5 non Christians on these forums and you can't handle it?
Subtle and mocking...hmmm. I have been called a smart mouth before. It's an aspect of my personality I doubt will go away. I reigned it in during my TWI days--unless I was mocking the non TWI's, which of course was okay. Even when I'm not saying it, I'm thinking it.
Scolding won't work--I've been scolded, more than once, even. You can always use the ignore feature.
Welcome to the Big Wide World.
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George Aar
Of course once you "educate yourself" you'll start believing the way Sunesis does, isn't that obvious?
How could you be so dumb?
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year2027
God first
Beloved Bramble
God loves you my dear friend
I am enjoying that link and I have only read part but its bookmark and I will leave a reply there soon
great truth
your welcome
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Sunesis
Well, Bramble, your intimidation tactics, if that's what they are, are not impressive. You're no different than a million other guys who can do the same.
My point is, why are you even bothering asking these questions if its all BS to you?
George, same to you, back at 'cha buddy.
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Bramble
Intimidation tactics? I'm just saying it the way I see it.
I would say that perhaps you are painting me with a darker brush than my posts warrant.
But *shrug*
--People can read for themselves, decide for themselves. Maybe that is the real issue--unorthodox ideas might look appealing. I noticed you're only going after the Non Christians. But feel free to point me to a post where that thought is wrong, and you're taking on a Christian.
There's no GSC rule that 'unbelievers' have to shut up, afterall, or that only Christians have the right to talk about Life after Death.
PS. I'm a woman.
I'm glad you enjoyed the blog, Roy.
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Oakspear
Bramble:
I think it varies depending on the "flavor" of Christian that you're talking to, but other than the rare "universalist" Christian, if you don't meet whatever standard that they believe the bible sets for attaining the afterlife, you will reap the consequenses.
For those who had similar beliefs to TWI, you're just dead, you get judged first in some versions, but you're not tortured in hell, just not eternally alive. Others of course believe that the bible teaches a literal hell and that those who don't make the grade are punished in some fashion, either by hideous torture on one hand, or simply being outside the presence of God on the other. Some take the position that once you "get saved" or "born again" you can't lose eternal life, so that people like you and I who once were Christians get the same eternal life gig as someone who remains a Christian, others believe that you can lose that status.
I have never run into a group other than TWI however, that was so into the devil spirit/possession consequenses of being a non-Christian. In TWI doctrine, not only were you missing out on eternal life, but you were being run by a "five-star general" devil spirit, or maybe you were "born again of the wrong seed". For those who turned away, we were definitely possessed, although still getting the eternal life gold ticket, albeit without "rewards".
Some groups who are more "works" oriented tend to see the possibility that good people of any faith might have a place in heaven.
It has been my experience that Christians are the most tolerant in these matters of Jews, seeing them almost as wayward cousins, Hindus and Buddhists from Hindu and Buddhist countries are viewed in a similar way, although American born Hindus and Buddhists are not looked upon so kindly. Wiccans are equated with satan worshippers and atheists are the lowest of the low.
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cman
The problem with not believing Universal Salvation is that most 'christians' think that one must be perfected or 'born again' in this life before death to 'go to heaven'.
The majority of christians do not understand born again or perfection.
It has escaped any spiritual significance and been looked at through a carnal thinking pattern.
Perfection is not a requirement for salvation and eternal life, and living it in good things.
Matthew 19:16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
This man already had eternal life yet still could go further.
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