Wolf, thanks for placing all of that personal testimony together so that it didn`t get buried. There is now no excuse to remain ignorant of our leaders true natures.
I.e., Jean just doesn't give 2 cents about anyone or anything.
If it was Jean's daughter this happened to, well, she just wouldn't be interested, she just wouldn't care.
In fact, she'd probably offer her daughter to the ole' Vicster, because he is such a man of God you know, and it would be wonderful and an honor for VP to teach her daughter how to service the MOG. First, he would teach her how to give a "proper" blow job, then, once he got her all hot and bothered after licking her breasts and body all up and down, he'd teach her how to have intercourse. I know this is what he'd do, because this is what he told me, graphically, he wanted to do to me on the motorcoach.
But, from Jean's posts, she would either be "not interested" or honored the MOG liked her daughter so much and was willing to teach her.
Boy, it must be nice living in the town called Denial.
P.S., skip this post newbie Jean, flaming, valiant defendant of the faith of TWI, as you're obviously, "not interested."
Sunesis....that is very difficult to read. It is offendsive...it is disturbing to contemplate.....impossible to comprehend such nastiness. However, I believe that it is absolutely VITAL that we read this...NECESSARY to understand how vile this man was....how he corrupted those around him...how he sullied whatever he touched.
Thank you for writing something that is so difficult.
He took that which was good and pure ...whether it be classes on the bible from bg, eager young christian`s ministries, our brothers who wanted to minister...our precious sisters bodies......He took that which was wholsome and pure and in the name of GOD contaminated it with his perversion.
You know Rascal, I wonder why I didn't up and leave then, but with the whole family in, a Rev. relative who was a region leader, it wasn't easy to walk away. I just avoided him after that. Also, this was just 2 hours before he was getting ready to teach the Sunday night service. I couldn't say anything because of "Lockbox." He told me, if I told anyone what he'd told me, since I was the only one he'd ever told this to, he'd know right away it came from me. Well, can't break a confidence with the MOG now, can you? When he first talked like this, I was - I guess cognative dissonance comes to mind. I changed the subject, then he went back and repeated what he wanted to do to me. This time I thought, he's really serious! Just then, DM came charging into the back, and I said, I have to go get ready and left.
The only reason I wasn't thrown out, is because of the rest of my family I think.
A couple of years later, I ran into someone who was out of TWI. She said, did he give that line... I said yes. She said, he gave it to all the girls. She also did not accept and was thrown out of a corps, and everyone was told she was possessed. It was amazing to hear the other side of the story.
Then of course, I found out one of my best buddies in the corps was regularly servicing him and loving it, that's when I started realizing, hey, something's going on here...
Sunesis, my heart goes out to you. I never personally experienced any of the sexually perverted side of VP. Thank God. But unfortunately you did as well as many more others. I litterally found out about all of this sexual abuse only in the last year or so. Basically since I started reading the stuff here on GS and some of the links.
This thread is helping me put a lot of loose pieces together to make a complete picture. So far I have recognized a lot of little signs or attitudes and most importantly I realize now when I was tested to see if I would or could be part of the inner circle. I failed. They thought that they could use my sister's profession against me, (she was a prostitute) but I was raised in Nevada where it is a profession. So I had no phobias or bad feelings about it. It just wasn't for me. They did not count on that I guess. Then they tried to tempt me with a guy I once had a crush on...that too failed, because I actually meant the oath I took as a WOW.
I guess what I am trying to say is they tried to take advantage of everyone just like Rascal said. And you are so brave and strong to be able to tell your story on the net like this. They were all sick men, and will pay for what they did to you and everyone else at the hand of God.
I was drugged and raped on the WOW field during my interum year just after they had sent me the other guy as a lightbearer/temptation. The guy that did it was a member of our twig. He had been chasing me around all year and I kept telling him no. Finally one night he had been out partying to much and our apartment was close to the bar so we told him he could sleep on the couch. Sometime in the night my WOW sister unlocked our bedroom door and left to trade places with him. I do not remember much except the pain in certain areas because of tearing and the blood. It was not hard to figure out what had happened since I woke up next to him half covered in my own blood. Everyone including our LC thought that I should be happy that I had gotten a piece. After all if I was happy about it that would mean that I wasn't gay. Right? I had turned down several guys while on the field and had been trying to protect my WOW sister from getting into a rebound relationship and not only ruining her life but breaking the vow she took as a WOW. (Its silly to think of it now. But I was raised to keep my promises especially those made to God.) I was trying so hard to keep standing for God, that's what I thought I was doing by keeping my vow, because I promised Him not some man.
It was right after POP and sh!t was really hitting the fan all over the ministry. My boyfriend had been sent WOW to Florida, he left the field with Ralph D. and we have not spoken to each other since. Our elder corps the 14th were called lazy and many were dismissed. Most of the 16th either left or were dismissed me included. Because in the end they decided that I cared about my WOW sister too much and didn't enjoy my "affair" with my twigite enough so I must be gay. They didn't tell me the reason why I had been sent home until I had been there nearly 6 months. All the while I was expected to be the acting Area C. for Northern Nevada. When I finally told them to take this job and shove it half of Reno went with me.
I have never told this story to anyone, certainly not in this much detail. There is of course much more...but not now. Anyway I just wanted you to know that I really do understand how you feel...at least a little.
Rascal, maybe you see now why I say, I had to think that I didn't waste so much time, so much of my life, because I feel I paid a pretty high price for my time. It had to mean something, count for something...
Sorry, sometimes the old wounds do bleed don't they? When I get like this I read this verse:
II Thes 2:6
And if it seems a righteous thing before the presence of God, He will recompense tribulation to those who oppress you.
quote: Sorry, sometimes the old wounds do bleed don't they? When I get like this I read this verse:
II Thes 2:6
And if it seems a righteous thing before the presence of God, He will recompense tribulation to those who oppress you.
Knowing that He has my back in the end helps.
Now THAT'S refreshing to see! I'll paste it again.
quote: Sorry, sometimes the old wounds do bleed don't they? When I get like this I read this verse:
II Thes 2:6
And if it seems a righteous thing before the presence of God, He will recompense tribulation to those who oppress you.
Knowing that He has my back in the end helps.
I'm NOT being sarcastic. Our hope covers more than just eternal life. That's beautiful.
At least, it's better than the attitude of "I'm a victim so I get to judge and spew venom on everybody that doesn't sympathize with me the way I want them to". Sure glad Jesus doesn't have that attitude.
What's Jesus attitude about those who prey upon the young, naive Christians?
Matthew 18:6-7
" 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"
Better for him that he was drowned in the sea. Woe to him that performs the evil deed-the "offence."
Mark 9:42-43.
" 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
We have it repeated. Even vpw would say it's "established."
Better for him he was drowned.
And, judging from Mark 9:43, Jesus would say that if one's choices were ONLY limited to
"rape one of the young, naive Christians"
and
"castrate yourself",
Jesus would say self-castration would be preferable.
If the HAND caused performance of evil, it would be better to cut off the HAND than to let it lead one
to evil....
Luke 17:1-2
"1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
We have it three times, here.
BTW, Matthew repeats the warning about body parts.
Matthew 18:9
"9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
Jesus was serious about telling us that sinning was seriously bad,
and that sinning and harming the young, naive Christians was seriously bad.
I'm sure glad Jesus HAS (I've no reason to think he has changed it)
that attitude.
He certainly wouldn't fog issues with vague insults meant to add irrelevant digressions,
when we're discussing those who committed offences against the little ones.
Then again, Jesus isn't one of my wounded brothers, and is unlikely to make mistakes
I am so sorry about what happened to you. That is inexcusable ..My heart breaks for the teenaged you out their struggling to keep your vow and committment.... It would simply boggle your mind how many girls share a similar *wow field* story.
It is very hard to come to grips with what happened, that we were fooled by evil men. That we in our youth, in our exuberance to serve God ...were nothing more than potential play things for the mogsis stunning.
The thing is...it is the beginning of the cleansing and healing process. We have aquired so many unhealthy thought processes...so many false concepts concerning God while involved....
It isn`t untill we recognise the evil source of so many of our ideas ...that we begin to break free of the nasty little dark box that our religion has manufactured for us.
Sure, some of it was good...what was stolen from bg...but the thing is so much was twisted and added that it is hard to sort the good from the bad.
As difficult as this is to come to grips with, trust me...it is the beginning of freedom and growth. When I set aside the arrogance that my knowledge of the scriptures engendered....when I shouted at God that everything I had ever been taught about him was a lie....it was a day of huge deliverance, it was a new beginning...I could almost feel God chuckling ...saying...*ok...now that we finally have THAT straight...let`s start back at square one*...and it has been incredible...almost as if after 20 years I had finally removed my foot from the hose of God`s love and goodness.
It has been an amazing journey.
The first step is the most difficult, coming to grips with the dishonesty of our leaders.
wordwolf you wouldn't know Jesus if he sat on your face and farted.
Now, THAT'S the state of mind I came to recognize and despise while at TWI. The judgemental, insulting comments, intended to aggressively display superiority.
I'm beginning to think John and Jean are getting a kick out of "shaking things up" arround here...rather troll-like behaviour, it seems.
They sure seem to enjoy being confrontational...another TWI characteristic.
I've been "shaking things up" off and on for 7 years. You ever notice that if you see a fight in progress you can't determine who really started it? What you're telling me is that I'm better at expressing my view which disagrees with the 'mainstream' than others who slink away when the pressure comes. There are other posters like me. This website, especially in this forum, is dominated by emotionally out of control women who believe it is their birthright to 'club men into submission'.
Men like me who resist this are targetted and labelled immediately. I can't shake up that which is already shook up. Some men here function as stooges. An articulate stooge is a stooge, nonetheless.
..and THERE we come to the source of it all. John`s well documented hatred of women. For 7 years it never has been about vpw and what he did....or doctrine or a search for the truth.....that has been the driving force...that has irritated you so ... and engendered such hatefullness on your part.......it is because WOMEN are telling about what this pervert did to them. You saw a chance to bash women ....and availed yourself....(I think that this is one of the rare moments that you have actually been candid here)
As far as shaking things up??? Buddy don`t kid yourself....all you have been doing is showing what a hatefull little arse you can be at times....
*Emotionally out of control women* It drives you bonkers that we are not UNDER someones control...that we can no longer be intimidated into silence.
Further more...let us be absolutely crystal clear in precisely what I personally telling YOU, RATHER than you telling me what I am saying to you..... RATHER than your self agrandizing notions of what you wish every body believed....
Here it is ....what *I* am saying pure and simple..... is that A GENUINE Christian would NEVER treat his brothers and sisters in Christ the way you do here. The proof is always in the fruit buddy.
It IS however, standard mo, and not unsurprising of the thousands of pseudo christians that twi turned out who in the arrogance of the knowledge that they gained...assume that it somehow makes them spiritual or of the spirit.
I've been "shaking things up" off and on for 7 years. You ever notice that if you see a fight in progress you can't determine who really started it? What you're telling me is that I'm better at expressing my view which disagrees with the 'mainstream' than others who slink away when the pressure comes. There are other posters like me. This website, especially in this forum, is dominated by emotionally out of control women who believe it is their birthright to 'club men into submission'.
Men like me who resist this are targetted and labelled immediately. I can't shake up that which is already shook up. Some men here function as stooges. An articulate stooge is a stooge, nonetheless.
Thank you, for proving my statement. The above quote speaks volumes as to who you really are.
wordwolf you wouldn't know Jesus if he sat on your face and farted.
Come on John you are better than that, I realize that the unlevel playing field can be frustrating at times but that's probably a little over the top. Not that he needs my speaking for him as he is perfectly able to handle it himself, but regardless of what you think of his opinions here, one thing I would not question is his faith.
Eyewide Open, thank you for sharing that, I know its not easy. There are so many incidents like this all over.
VPW was a misogynist. He disliked and had total contempt for women. Unfortunately, he passed this on to those he mentored, and we see the results manifested in certain male posters here. His having sex with them was not about love, compassion, concern, or whatever illusion he had. It was about power, pure and simple.
It was about domination and conquest. For him, once the thrill of the hunt was over, and he had sex with the victim, it was off to find the next thrill, the next woman. His predatory lust was never satisfied. It was about power, domination, contempt, and hatred.
John, you have learned well from your Master.
I have also noted, most of the times you post regularly are the threads that have to do with sex.
What are you - a voyeur?
What are you doing on these threads if you don't believe the women here?
Does it give you a secret thrill?
You have just said women are dominating people who need to be brought under control. You really get a kick out of these threads don't you?
I'm starting to think you are just as perverted as ole VP.
You know, I have always wondered if it was the teen aged boys that wierwille had used and tossed away like so much garbage if the outrage would finally hit.
But because it was young girls that were drugged and raped...coerced and intimidated......it is somehow in some folks minds dismissed as no big deal.
What's Jesus attitude about those who prey upon the young, naive Christians?
Matthew 18:6-7
" 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"
Better for him that he was drowned in the sea. Woe to him that performs the evil deed-the "offence."
Mark 9:42-43.
" 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
We have it repeated. Even vpw would say it's "established."
Better for him he was drowned.
And, judging from Mark 9:43, Jesus would say that if one's choices were ONLY limited to
"rape one of the young, naive Christians"
and
"castrate yourself",
Jesus would say self-castration would be preferable.
If the HAND caused performance of evil, it would be better to cut off the HAND than to let it lead one
to evil....
Luke 17:1-2
"1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
We have it three times, here.
BTW, Matthew repeats the warning about body parts.
Matthew 18:9
"9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
Jesus was serious about telling us that sinning was seriously bad,
and that sinning and harming the young, naive Christians was seriously bad.
I'm sure glad Jesus HAS (I've no reason to think he has changed it)
that attitude.
He certainly wouldn't fog issues with vague insults meant to add irrelevant digressions,
when we're discussing those who committed offences against the little ones.
Then again, Jesus isn't one of my wounded brothers, and is unlikely to make mistakes
brought on by injury.
I'll add Jesus wouldn't fog issues with SPECIFIC insults by name, meant to add irrelevant digressions,
when we're discussing those who committed offenses against the little ones.
Then again, Jesus isn't one of my wounded brothers, and is unlikely to make mistakes
I've been "shaking things up" off and on for 7 years. You ever notice that if you see a fight in progress you can't determine who really started it?
Don`t think that it hasn`t been noticed, the challenge has always to keep the topic on track whenever the topic of abuse was being discussed...the only difference here and now is that you have been unable to rally your usual cohorts to help you gang bang the peaple trying to tell the story.
You finally had to dig up your wife to lend a little support to your crappy agenda.
The thing is john...you labled the people in this forum as emotionally out of control women and stooges....again...that is NOT how a genuine christian treats his brothers and sisters in christ.
These kind of attacks really show what TWI was like. Very typical, "it didn't happen", "well, if it did, it was worth it, I got the VERD, besides, THOUSANDS 'got saved'"
I think it's more like "millions now smoking.."
Rascal, I think this kind of calousness exhibited by some posters is very much on the topic of the thread here. At least as a case history. They seem to hold the same opinions they did YEARS ago in der vey. No change, no consideration, no remorse, no logic, no learning. "no new research". I don't think they ever really left der vey.
"This is your brain. this is your brain in a cult. Any questions?"
I think it is just one more example of the TWI mentality. I don't think it's a matter of TWI being good, on it's own terms. Never will happen. I don't think the attitudes will ever change on their own. They still think the holocaust is a hoax, think the survivors are mistaken "whiners". Would we expect any less of an attitude towards the women who were abused by bible-toting dirtbags?
I still think it needs to be flogged into submission.
All I can say is, if somebody reads this stuff, and still wants to "join" or go back to der vey, their blood is on their own head.
Yep. Ask the local guy trying to recruit you...
"what abuse? what lawsuits? you've been on the internet, haven't you.."
You very well could be right waterbuffalo....her pm`s accusations were certainly as vile as his...she called me all the same names...it is either that or she is coached to the point where she hasn`t an original thought to call her own....shrug
Ham...you are absolutely right...LOOK at what this guy is willing to do to others in order to maintain their twi aquired belief system...(I refuse to call it Christian) If THIS isn`t a sterling example of needing for twi to be good in order to live with ones self....I don`t know what is.
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rascal
Wolf, thanks for placing all of that personal testimony together so that it didn`t get buried. There is now no excuse to remain ignorant of our leaders true natures.
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Sunesis
Jean's just not interested. Not interested.
Not interested is indifference.
I.e., Jean just doesn't give 2 cents about anyone or anything.
If it was Jean's daughter this happened to, well, she just wouldn't be interested, she just wouldn't care.
In fact, she'd probably offer her daughter to the ole' Vicster, because he is such a man of God you know, and it would be wonderful and an honor for VP to teach her daughter how to service the MOG. First, he would teach her how to give a "proper" blow job, then, once he got her all hot and bothered after licking her breasts and body all up and down, he'd teach her how to have intercourse. I know this is what he'd do, because this is what he told me, graphically, he wanted to do to me on the motorcoach.
But, from Jean's posts, she would either be "not interested" or honored the MOG liked her daughter so much and was willing to teach her.
Boy, it must be nice living in the town called Denial.
P.S., skip this post newbie Jean, flaming, valiant defendant of the faith of TWI, as you're obviously, "not interested."
From, Sunesis, the one who has no credibility.
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rascal
Sunesis....that is very difficult to read. It is offendsive...it is disturbing to contemplate.....impossible to comprehend such nastiness. However, I believe that it is absolutely VITAL that we read this...NECESSARY to understand how vile this man was....how he corrupted those around him...how he sullied whatever he touched.
Thank you for writing something that is so difficult.
He took that which was good and pure ...whether it be classes on the bible from bg, eager young christian`s ministries, our brothers who wanted to minister...our precious sisters bodies......He took that which was wholsome and pure and in the name of GOD contaminated it with his perversion.
He was despicable.
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Sunesis
You know Rascal, I wonder why I didn't up and leave then, but with the whole family in, a Rev. relative who was a region leader, it wasn't easy to walk away. I just avoided him after that. Also, this was just 2 hours before he was getting ready to teach the Sunday night service. I couldn't say anything because of "Lockbox." He told me, if I told anyone what he'd told me, since I was the only one he'd ever told this to, he'd know right away it came from me. Well, can't break a confidence with the MOG now, can you? When he first talked like this, I was - I guess cognative dissonance comes to mind. I changed the subject, then he went back and repeated what he wanted to do to me. This time I thought, he's really serious! Just then, DM came charging into the back, and I said, I have to go get ready and left.
The only reason I wasn't thrown out, is because of the rest of my family I think.
A couple of years later, I ran into someone who was out of TWI. She said, did he give that line... I said yes. She said, he gave it to all the girls. She also did not accept and was thrown out of a corps, and everyone was told she was possessed. It was amazing to hear the other side of the story.
Then of course, I found out one of my best buddies in the corps was regularly servicing him and loving it, that's when I started realizing, hey, something's going on here...
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Eyesopen
Sunesis, my heart goes out to you. I never personally experienced any of the sexually perverted side of VP. Thank God. But unfortunately you did as well as many more others. I litterally found out about all of this sexual abuse only in the last year or so. Basically since I started reading the stuff here on GS and some of the links.
This thread is helping me put a lot of loose pieces together to make a complete picture. So far I have recognized a lot of little signs or attitudes and most importantly I realize now when I was tested to see if I would or could be part of the inner circle. I failed. They thought that they could use my sister's profession against me, (she was a prostitute) but I was raised in Nevada where it is a profession. So I had no phobias or bad feelings about it. It just wasn't for me. They did not count on that I guess. Then they tried to tempt me with a guy I once had a crush on...that too failed, because I actually meant the oath I took as a WOW.
I guess what I am trying to say is they tried to take advantage of everyone just like Rascal said. And you are so brave and strong to be able to tell your story on the net like this. They were all sick men, and will pay for what they did to you and everyone else at the hand of God.
I was drugged and raped on the WOW field during my interum year just after they had sent me the other guy as a lightbearer/temptation. The guy that did it was a member of our twig. He had been chasing me around all year and I kept telling him no. Finally one night he had been out partying to much and our apartment was close to the bar so we told him he could sleep on the couch. Sometime in the night my WOW sister unlocked our bedroom door and left to trade places with him. I do not remember much except the pain in certain areas because of tearing and the blood. It was not hard to figure out what had happened since I woke up next to him half covered in my own blood. Everyone including our LC thought that I should be happy that I had gotten a piece. After all if I was happy about it that would mean that I wasn't gay. Right? I had turned down several guys while on the field and had been trying to protect my WOW sister from getting into a rebound relationship and not only ruining her life but breaking the vow she took as a WOW. (Its silly to think of it now. But I was raised to keep my promises especially those made to God.) I was trying so hard to keep standing for God, that's what I thought I was doing by keeping my vow, because I promised Him not some man.
It was right after POP and sh!t was really hitting the fan all over the ministry. My boyfriend had been sent WOW to Florida, he left the field with Ralph D. and we have not spoken to each other since. Our elder corps the 14th were called lazy and many were dismissed. Most of the 16th either left or were dismissed me included. Because in the end they decided that I cared about my WOW sister too much and didn't enjoy my "affair" with my twigite enough so I must be gay. They didn't tell me the reason why I had been sent home until I had been there nearly 6 months. All the while I was expected to be the acting Area C. for Northern Nevada. When I finally told them to take this job and shove it half of Reno went with me.
I have never told this story to anyone, certainly not in this much detail. There is of course much more...but not now. Anyway I just wanted you to know that I really do understand how you feel...at least a little.
Rascal, maybe you see now why I say, I had to think that I didn't waste so much time, so much of my life, because I feel I paid a pretty high price for my time. It had to mean something, count for something...
Sorry, sometimes the old wounds do bleed don't they? When I get like this I read this verse:
II Thes 2:6
And if it seems a righteous thing before the presence of God, He will recompense tribulation to those who oppress you.
Knowing that He has my back in the end helps.
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johniam
quote: Sorry, sometimes the old wounds do bleed don't they? When I get like this I read this verse:
II Thes 2:6
And if it seems a righteous thing before the presence of God, He will recompense tribulation to those who oppress you.
Knowing that He has my back in the end helps.
Now THAT'S refreshing to see! I'll paste it again.
quote: Sorry, sometimes the old wounds do bleed don't they? When I get like this I read this verse:
II Thes 2:6
And if it seems a righteous thing before the presence of God, He will recompense tribulation to those who oppress you.
Knowing that He has my back in the end helps.
I'm NOT being sarcastic. Our hope covers more than just eternal life. That's beautiful.
At least, it's better than the attitude of "I'm a victim so I get to judge and spew venom on everybody that doesn't sympathize with me the way I want them to". Sure glad Jesus doesn't have that attitude.
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WordWolf
What's Jesus attitude about those who prey upon the young, naive Christians?
Matthew 18:6-7
" 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"
Better for him that he was drowned in the sea. Woe to him that performs the evil deed-the "offence."
Mark 9:42-43.
" 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
We have it repeated. Even vpw would say it's "established."
Better for him he was drowned.
And, judging from Mark 9:43, Jesus would say that if one's choices were ONLY limited to
"rape one of the young, naive Christians"
and
"castrate yourself",
Jesus would say self-castration would be preferable.
If the HAND caused performance of evil, it would be better to cut off the HAND than to let it lead one
to evil....
Luke 17:1-2
"1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
We have it three times, here.
BTW, Matthew repeats the warning about body parts.
Matthew 18:9
"9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
Jesus was serious about telling us that sinning was seriously bad,
and that sinning and harming the young, naive Christians was seriously bad.
I'm sure glad Jesus HAS (I've no reason to think he has changed it)
that attitude.
He certainly wouldn't fog issues with vague insults meant to add irrelevant digressions,
when we're discussing those who committed offences against the little ones.
Then again, Jesus isn't one of my wounded brothers, and is unlikely to make mistakes
brought on by injury.
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johniam
wordwolf you wouldn't know Jesus if he sat on your face and farted.
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rascal
I might suggest if he was sitting on someones face and farting...it wouldn`t be Jesus at all...maybe it is YOU who doesn`t know of whom you speak.
John, come on, you cannot deal with the information presented so you resort to name calling and insulting.
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rascal
((((Eyes))))
I am so sorry about what happened to you. That is inexcusable ..My heart breaks for the teenaged you out their struggling to keep your vow and committment.... It would simply boggle your mind how many girls share a similar *wow field* story.
It is very hard to come to grips with what happened, that we were fooled by evil men. That we in our youth, in our exuberance to serve God ...were nothing more than potential play things for the mogsis stunning.
The thing is...it is the beginning of the cleansing and healing process. We have aquired so many unhealthy thought processes...so many false concepts concerning God while involved....
It isn`t untill we recognise the evil source of so many of our ideas ...that we begin to break free of the nasty little dark box that our religion has manufactured for us.
Sure, some of it was good...what was stolen from bg...but the thing is so much was twisted and added that it is hard to sort the good from the bad.
As difficult as this is to come to grips with, trust me...it is the beginning of freedom and growth. When I set aside the arrogance that my knowledge of the scriptures engendered....when I shouted at God that everything I had ever been taught about him was a lie....it was a day of huge deliverance, it was a new beginning...I could almost feel God chuckling ...saying...*ok...now that we finally have THAT straight...let`s start back at square one*...and it has been incredible...almost as if after 20 years I had finally removed my foot from the hose of God`s love and goodness.
It has been an amazing journey.
The first step is the most difficult, coming to grips with the dishonesty of our leaders.
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Listener
Now, THAT'S the state of mind I came to recognize and despise while at TWI. The judgemental, insulting comments, intended to aggressively display superiority.
I'm beginning to think John and Jean are getting a kick out of "shaking things up" arround here...rather troll-like behaviour, it seems.
They sure seem to enjoy being confrontational...another TWI characteristic.
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johniam
I've been "shaking things up" off and on for 7 years. You ever notice that if you see a fight in progress you can't determine who really started it? What you're telling me is that I'm better at expressing my view which disagrees with the 'mainstream' than others who slink away when the pressure comes. There are other posters like me. This website, especially in this forum, is dominated by emotionally out of control women who believe it is their birthright to 'club men into submission'.
Men like me who resist this are targetted and labelled immediately. I can't shake up that which is already shook up. Some men here function as stooges. An articulate stooge is a stooge, nonetheless.
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rascal
..and THERE we come to the source of it all. John`s well documented hatred of women. For 7 years it never has been about vpw and what he did....or doctrine or a search for the truth.....that has been the driving force...that has irritated you so ... and engendered such hatefullness on your part.......it is because WOMEN are telling about what this pervert did to them. You saw a chance to bash women ....and availed yourself....(I think that this is one of the rare moments that you have actually been candid here)
As far as shaking things up??? Buddy don`t kid yourself....all you have been doing is showing what a hatefull little arse you can be at times....
*Emotionally out of control women* It drives you bonkers that we are not UNDER someones control...that we can no longer be intimidated into silence.
Further more...let us be absolutely crystal clear in precisely what I personally telling YOU, RATHER than you telling me what I am saying to you..... RATHER than your self agrandizing notions of what you wish every body believed....
Here it is ....what *I* am saying pure and simple..... is that A GENUINE Christian would NEVER treat his brothers and sisters in Christ the way you do here. The proof is always in the fruit buddy.
It IS however, standard mo, and not unsurprising of the thousands of pseudo christians that twi turned out who in the arrogance of the knowledge that they gained...assume that it somehow makes them spiritual or of the spirit.
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johniam
Hallelujia!
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Listener
Thank you, for proving my statement. The above quote speaks volumes as to who you really are.
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WhiteDove
Come on John you are better than that, I realize that the unlevel playing field can be frustrating at times but that's probably a little over the top. Not that he needs my speaking for him as he is perfectly able to handle it himself, but regardless of what you think of his opinions here, one thing I would not question is his faith.
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Sunesis
Eyewide Open, thank you for sharing that, I know its not easy. There are so many incidents like this all over.
VPW was a misogynist. He disliked and had total contempt for women. Unfortunately, he passed this on to those he mentored, and we see the results manifested in certain male posters here. His having sex with them was not about love, compassion, concern, or whatever illusion he had. It was about power, pure and simple.
It was about domination and conquest. For him, once the thrill of the hunt was over, and he had sex with the victim, it was off to find the next thrill, the next woman. His predatory lust was never satisfied. It was about power, domination, contempt, and hatred.
John, you have learned well from your Master.
I have also noted, most of the times you post regularly are the threads that have to do with sex.
What are you - a voyeur?
What are you doing on these threads if you don't believe the women here?
Does it give you a secret thrill?
You have just said women are dominating people who need to be brought under control. You really get a kick out of these threads don't you?
I'm starting to think you are just as perverted as ole VP.
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rascal
You know, I have always wondered if it was the teen aged boys that wierwille had used and tossed away like so much garbage if the outrage would finally hit.
But because it was young girls that were drugged and raped...coerced and intimidated......it is somehow in some folks minds dismissed as no big deal.
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WordWolf
I'll add Jesus wouldn't fog issues with SPECIFIC insults by name, meant to add irrelevant digressions,
when we're discussing those who committed offenses against the little ones.
Then again, Jesus isn't one of my wounded brothers, and is unlikely to make mistakes
brought on by injury.
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rascal
Don`t think that it hasn`t been noticed, the challenge has always to keep the topic on track whenever the topic of abuse was being discussed...the only difference here and now is that you have been unable to rally your usual cohorts to help you gang bang the peaple trying to tell the story.
You finally had to dig up your wife to lend a little support to your crappy agenda.
The thing is john...you labled the people in this forum as emotionally out of control women and stooges....again...that is NOT how a genuine christian treats his brothers and sisters in christ.
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waterbuffalo
I'm not sure there really is a Mrs. now after reading his comments here.
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Ham
These kind of attacks really show what TWI was like. Very typical, "it didn't happen", "well, if it did, it was worth it, I got the VERD, besides, THOUSANDS 'got saved'"
I think it's more like "millions now smoking.."
Rascal, I think this kind of calousness exhibited by some posters is very much on the topic of the thread here. At least as a case history. They seem to hold the same opinions they did YEARS ago in der vey. No change, no consideration, no remorse, no logic, no learning. "no new research". I don't think they ever really left der vey.
"This is your brain. this is your brain in a cult. Any questions?"
I think it is just one more example of the TWI mentality. I don't think it's a matter of TWI being good, on it's own terms. Never will happen. I don't think the attitudes will ever change on their own. They still think the holocaust is a hoax, think the survivors are mistaken "whiners". Would we expect any less of an attitude towards the women who were abused by bible-toting dirtbags?
I still think it needs to be flogged into submission.
All I can say is, if somebody reads this stuff, and still wants to "join" or go back to der vey, their blood is on their own head.
Yep. Ask the local guy trying to recruit you...
"what abuse? what lawsuits? you've been on the internet, haven't you.."
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Bolshevik
When do you hear a twier say "Ya know what, I don't see this practice from the Word" instead of "I need to take the Advance Class again."
You could argue with a twier that your favorite color is blue, and they'll try to get you thank the Board of Directors for the colors of the rainbow.
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rascal
You very well could be right waterbuffalo....her pm`s accusations were certainly as vile as his...she called me all the same names...it is either that or she is coached to the point where she hasn`t an original thought to call her own....shrug
Ham...you are absolutely right...LOOK at what this guy is willing to do to others in order to maintain their twi aquired belief system...(I refuse to call it Christian) If THIS isn`t a sterling example of needing for twi to be good in order to live with ones self....I don`t know what is.
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