I thought so...you didn`t know or spend any time with lcm or vpw...or any amount of time at hq....and yet you presume to know more than the people who DID interact with them on a daily basis...who DID experience the double standards taught...who were required to submit sexually or be thrown out of God`s ministry.
Did you have the courage to read sunesis` account? She is not the only reputable poster here who saw and experienced the same thing.
Face it...All you EVER saw was the shined up polished *public* side that they wanted you to see.
Hell, I knew people from the early corpes as well....(I even knew a bot member fairly well)....*I* was told on the wow field by the lc`s (they were in the 1st and 2nd corpes) that sex was no big deal. (they too had been required to abort a child while in the program) I was told that it ONLY became a big deal if it prevented you from honoring your commitment to God. ...ie got pregnant and tried to leave. I have found out since leaving that the same lc used to chase my wow sister around his desk trying to get into her pants every time we were called down there for a meeting.
It was ALSO my experience that people dismissed for sexual indescretions (I knew someone as well) were asked to leave not because the sex was bad..(all things being lawfull etc) ...but because they had been caught and it was public...causing people to stumble.
Up untill this point as a wow and app corpes.....I had believed as you.....the entire 6 years prior of my ministry involvement that sex was not permissable unless you were married. I would have been shoulder to shoulder with you arguing with people in denial of what happened untill some of the bad things happened to me. Untill I met people who were finally allowed to tell what had happened and why they mysteriously disappeared.
Jean, your answer didn`t make any sense about in the beginning. How does that line up with what Jesus taught and what is in galatians 5? It seems like you have to dismiss an awfull lot of scripture to maintain your pov.
Yeah sure, I agree with you that there were lots of great folks in twi ... we were some of them. Unfortunately, that is why the leaders were able to keep their natures hidden.
....and yet you presume to know more than the people who DID interact with them on a daily basis
Did you have the courage to read sunesis` account? She is not the only reputable poster here who saw and experienced the same thing.
Face it...All you EVER saw was the shined up polished *public* side that they wanted you to see.
Jean, your answer didn`t make any sense about in the beginning. How does that line up with what Jesus taught and what is in galatians 5? It seems like you have to dismiss an awfull lot of scripture to maintain your pov.
I don't presume anything. I have said from the beginning that I don't know and I am not prepared to take it upon myself to sit in judgment as you have. There is only One who knows the whole truth about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and He's not talking. I am appalled that you in your arrogance and hubris take it upon yourself to pry into other people's pain under the guise of "We need to get at the truth".
I didn't have the INTEREST to read her account. Considering my only interaction with her, I'm not so sure I'm going to concede that she's a reputable poster.
All I ever saw was men and women of integrity trying to do their best for God and His Word. I don't concede that that falls under the category of the "shined up polished public side".
And, finally, that wasn't me, that was John. You need to pay attention.
uhhhh Jean my reading skills are fine...my questions were directed at you.....sooooooo you did not have the courage to read her first hand account? Wouldn`t that be very relevent to the topic at hand?
You who have never met the top ministry leaders??? You have never been in the way corpes and exposed to the abuses?
So far it seems like you don`t want to know the truth. You accused people here of not being able to present first hand testimony...now you are making up excuses why you don`t read it.
I guess that it is a lot easier to live with ones fantasies of what they wish was right .... than it is to come to grips with the reality of the situation have to re evaluate ones entire understanding.
I think that just answered the question posed in this thread.
No such paper on me exists because I never wrote one.
Good for you.
However, I know a few who indeed did.
I didn't have the INTEREST to read her account. Considering my only interaction with her, I'm not so sure I'm going to concede that she's a reputable poster.
That's nice. If it's "negative", or bursts the illusion that all was so fine and dandy, you don't accept the truthfulness of the account.
What about the others?
ah. "negative", must not be telling the truth, doesn't agree with "reality".
We were conned. The job was so good, people still don't know that they paid for a cart of horse manure with the blood, innocence and sanity of their own brethren.
He chose his victims based on the data he had on the corps. That little "my life before the corpses" paper showed him who would do what. People with past abuse were often the ones singled out.
Hmm...hadn't thought of that. I lived a Norman Rockwell childhood. Nothing sinister to report. Hmmm...more pieces fall into place.
There is only One who knows the whole truth about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and He's not talking.
May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP? If so you should know that he was not the only one alive nor involved in TWI 20 to 30 years ago. Other people were there, living in the same place as him, eating the same food, breathing the same air. They also would know what happened. Would it not be prudent to listen to them?
If you do not think so then please explain why their accounts are worth so little and his so much.
I didn't have the INTEREST to read her account. Considering my only interaction with her, I'm not so sure I'm going to concede that she's a reputable poster.
Please take the time to think about all the things that is being said in this thread and other threads too! I know that I was very shocked and hurt to find all this to be true particularily, about VPW as I was one like you who never knew there was a cover up and certainly thought that at least VP was not involed. For the past ten years I have been without TWI members in my life; not really marked and avoided for arguing with a twig leader...I guess that I wasn't even valuable enough for that. I have read a lot of threads here and I don't believe that they are making it up. I have been in TWI since 1972. All that I have read confirms my suspicions. Josh's Father was my Twig leader and he seduced me in the identical manner VPW and LCM did. Not only that I later found out he had seduced quite a few women in our branch! This was in 1975....long before LCM took the reigns. I don't place the blame entirely on Josh's father..I am in part to blame for believing him. Many people here are talking about women who were premeditatively hand picked drugged abused and further threatened!
I can look back now and know where my son's father was coming from as I remember our conversations. I finally figured out it was the true love and service of the true believers that I love and God!
Hmm...hadn't thought of that. I lived a Norman Rockwell childhood. Nothing sinister to report. Hmmm...more pieces fall into place.
May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP? If so you should know that he was not the only one alive nor involved in TWI 20 to 30 years ago. Other people were there, living in the same place as him, eating the same food, breathing the same air. They also would know what happened. Would it not be prudent to listen to them?
If you do not think so then please explain why their accounts are worth so little and his so much.
I...just can't believe you said that. <_<
Perhaps Jean is talking about God when she refers to only ONE and HE.
May I submit that God doesn't need to talk if there are others talking. And if they were there, they have the authority to speak.
Now Jean I realize that you doubt whether or not these folks were there. (At least I think that's what you've been saying.)
If VPW were alive and he were guilty - do you really think he would admit to these wrongs? I've never heard of a sexual predator admitting to his acts.
I realize that you want to remain non-judgmental. I'm not so sure that means that reason doesn't apply. IMHO - it is not "judgmental" to call a thief a thief. Now, saying that he can't change - that may be judgmental.
In this case though, VPW can't change because he's dead. Many of his followers and supporters can change.
This is not directed at any particular post or poster.
I was never in the WC so I never had to write the aforementioned paper.
I do recall, however, having to fill out a rather personal questionnaire as part of the Christian Family and Sex class.(as a student)
Later, as a class instructor, I recall having the students fill out the same questionnaire and being instructed by HQ to immediately seal them in an envelope without looking at them and sending them to HQ. This would have been in about'73 or '74.
What was the purpose of this? Was it somehow related to all this stuff? I don't know the answer to those questions. Seeing it in retrospect, however, it is kinda creepy to think of a so-called "ministry" having any valid need to know personal information of this nature about people they were not professionally counselling or actively involved with in some sort of therapy.
That IS wierd waysider. Another wierd piece of the puzzle in addition to the birth to the corpes paper...one of the requirements for entry into the corpes was a complete physical one of the required test being one that was specifically for std`s. Gotta protect those mogs I guess. (I wonder if this requirement came after Howard A nearly died of herpe`s simplex 3)
Pretty stunning that this would be necessary for entry into a christian ministry.
I don't remember filling out a questionnaire for CF&S, but that doesn't mean that I didn't; I just don't recall.
However, I do remember, when I was at Emporia, those of us in the College Division took the Myers-Briggs psychological test. Supposedly, this was to help us figure out how to better get along in groups by knowing another person's personality type.
Only problem is that we each got our individual results but not really any kind of follow up so that we could put the knowledge into practice.
Even at that time, I thought it odd that a spiritual organization would be giving psychological tests.
Jean – I know this is a lot to take in. This stuff sounds so appalling…shocking…unbelievable…and unless a person was a member of the Way Corps [the people who were trained by and worked forTWI] they may never fully understand how VPW sabotaged people's moral compass and laid the groundwork for sexual predators like himself. I was in the Family Corps – and if you have a hard time believing first hand accounts because you do not know the person – you may want to consider the implications of something that was experienced by all Corps and on occasion even some TWI followers who were not Corps…At some point during Corps training everyone gets to see one of VPW's favorite videos – a dog having sex with a woman.
VPW's Christian Family and Sex Class was only a hint of his lascivious attitudes. When I was in residence – VPW had a pajama part [an informal setting for making a good soft-sell of his perverted lifestyle] and showed us that porn video – remember I said I was in Family Corps – there were teens present! At one point during the pajama party VPW invited a sixteen year old girl to the front of the room and shows her this pen as he describes to the rest of us that it has little figures of a man and a woman having sex and you make them do it by moving the pen up and down. VPW's very presence always had the power to sedate the intellectual and moral functions of his most devote followers – there we were cutting up with jokes during the video – he's laughing along with us – all the while slipping in all that nonsense about how he's so renewed his mind that this doesn't bother him or shock him.
There's something you can verify for yourself. Talk to any Corps that you know. Think about what that says of VPW's character…of his morals…Do you think it's acceptable for a supposed minister of God to do things like this? The general public were sold a certain persona – a façade really – all painted up to look like the man of god for this day and time and hour.
This is a hard pill to swallow. The first thing that happens to folks is shock – they go numb…don't know what to think, feel, or what to do…Then it's denial – "Naw – can't be – I couldn't have been tricked – why would God let this happen?" It takes a lot of strength and courage to move on from there. I wish you the best and encourage you to just listen, think, question, consider, and look into any of the issues that capture your attention.
quote: May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP?
Actually, it's God (note the word One is capitalized). Jean's right here and OKd me responding for her. I want to interject something since jean and I have stirred up such dust and since we may be ousted soon.
I have been posting since April 2000 on Waydale first GSC second. I've had 7 yrs to interact and think about how this website works. Jean had not been interested until very recently. Sure, I'll advise her about certain situations and tell her what I think she should know about certain posters, but she posts what she wants to. We just happen to be very like minded about this stuff. Maybe to some of you it has been a novelty for her to be posting, but you will probably write her off as the same kind of "Wierwille defender" that you regard me as.
I still firmly believe in the Hope of the return of Jesus Christ which will result in, among other things, all tears being wiped from the eyes of those who inherit eternal life, especially those who have been wronged by VP/TWI. But I refuse to allow these stories to rob me of the peace I received in Christ through PFAL. I still hopefully have plenty of living left. If that makes me offensive to you, then it does.
THAT isn`t what makes you offensive John.....stop kidding yourself..lol :)
It is when you insist on calling people liars and sociopaths for being mad at their bad treatment from someone that we should have been able to safely trust that people get a little testy.
Has jean had the guts to read sunisis or dot`s first hand accounts of experiences with vp yet?
This is not directed at any particular post or poster.
I was never in the WC so I never had to write the aforementioned paper.
I do recall, however, having to fill out a rather personal questionnaire as part of the Christian Family and Sex class.(as a student)
Later, as a class instructor, I recall having the students fill out the same questionnaire and being instructed by HQ to immediately seal them in an envelope without looking at them and sending them to HQ. This would have been in about'73 or '74.
What was the purpose of this? Was it somehow related to all this stuff? I don't know the answer to those questions. Seeing it in retrospect, however, it is kinda creepy to think of a so-called "ministry" having any valid need to know personal information of this nature about people they were not professionally counselling or actively involved with in some sort of therapy.
Anybody remember those questionnaires?
I do and there were no names on them to associate them with anyone. The reason for enclosing them in an envelope and sending them off without looking them over was to keep the data private, in case you recognized someones handwriting. I believe the data was supposed to be for feedback for direction in future classses, but I don't think that ever happened .
quote: May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP?
Actually, it's God (note the word One is capitalized). Jean's right here and OKd me responding for her. I want to interject something since jean and I have stirred up such dust and since we may be ousted soon.
I was kind of hoping that it was God to whom she was referring. But I wasn't entirely certain, given the many times that the idea that VP was dead now and could not speak for himself idea had been repeated. I am glad that you cleared up that misunderstanding up for me.
I don't recall any questionaires in CFS. That doesn't mean that there weren't any I just don't remember it. I remember being VERY uncomfortable in the class. Both when I took it (every time I took it) and when I instructed it. In my mind the ministry (or most of the people in it) really didn't have the proper credentials or education to be teaching such a class in the manner that they taught it. Of course I felt the same way about the biblical counselling class.
VPW's Christian Family and Sex Class was only a hint of his lascivious attitudes. When I was in residence – VPW had a pajama part [an informal setting for making a good soft-sell of his perverted lifestyle] and showed us that porn video – remember I said I was in Family Corps – there were teens present! At one point during the pajama party VPW invited a sixteen year old girl to the front of the room and shows her this pen as he describes to the rest of us that it has little figures of a man and a woman having sex and you make them do it by moving the pen up and down. VPW's very presence always had the power to sedate the intellectual and moral functions of his most devote followers – there we were cutting up with jokes during the video – he's laughing along with us – all the while slipping in all that nonsense about how he's so renewed his mind that this doesn't bother him or shock him.
Now I know where my LC and his wife got their "permission" to show Lesbian Porn to the TC and BC wives. So glad I walked out on that one...
THAT isn`t what makes you offensive John.....stop kidding yourself..lol :)
It is when you insist on calling people liars and sociopaths for being mad at their bad treatment from someone that we should have been able to safely trust that people get a little testy.
Has jean had the guts to read sunisis or dot`s first hand accounts of experiences with vp yet?
No. Nothing to do with guts though. Still just really not interested enough.
When I read Wordwolf's posts I can't help imagine what Satan the "prosecutor" will attempt to do in accusing God's people of all manner of sin "day and night before our God". The word says God shall wipe all tears from the eyes of His people...no more death, sorrow, crying, etc. It's GOING to happen. Not in this life, but it's GOING to happen.
(snip)
AHA.
That explains it.
The WordWolf post preceeding this most immediately was THIS ONE HERE....
You've already sat in judgement on those who've examined direct testimony.
Actually, we have testimony from some of those who came forth and admitted they knew this
was going on, and they buried it, as well.
There's a complete picture painted here.
The physical evidence shows that vpw had arranged for places to meet women privately.
There are people who say they're aware vpw was cheating on his wife with young believers,
which by itself was an abuse of his office and trust, even had that all been consentual.
We have people who've said they've encountered women right after they claimed they were
raped by vpw or that vpw seemed ready to rape them.
We have people who are aware of the "exit counselors" and the network covering vpw's tracks.
We have victim accounts-all of which harmonize- that they were told similar or identical raps.
We have victim testimony that vpw had their "From Birth to the Corps" paper in their hand,
and he claimed their past sexual trauma could be healed by sex from a real man of God,
as he put his moves on them.
We have victim testimony that some were drugged into unconsciousness, which skips
a few steps there.
We have eyewitness testimony that vpw had sent for someone, and when that woman
arrived, he was completely unclothed.
And-unless you are ready to call Jim D. a liar,
we have a witness who said that all the way back at the House of Acts,
vpw was interested in what orgies were like, and vpw volunteered that they were
permitted by God Almighty, complete with the verse used to permit it.
Now, if we had all this in a court of law,
the civil case would be a breeze,
and I think a criminal suit-with its higher criteria for a conviction-
would be a strong enough case that vpw would be desperate to get out of it.
The combination of "the lockbox" (vpw had a doctrine he taught his cadre that
instilled a code of silence-complete with a NAME),
his well-crafted public image,
his well-crafted and well-orchestrated criminal enterprise
(I mean the components of his rape machine, from before to after),
and the lack of communication before the internet,
allowed vpw a "freedom" he would not have today.
lcm was caught because
A) he didn't have as well-crafted a public image, so he could be questioned
B) he thought he wasn't doing wrong, so he didn't orchestrate so well to cover his tracks
C) communication after 1985 has improved drastically over the years,
allowing witnesses and victims to communicate
vpw knew he did wrong, and did everything possible to cover his tracks short of
murder, but even what he did, if done during the internet age, would have
eventually been caught.
On 9/11,
many people saw the planes hit, and the buildings damaged and collapsed.
Many people only know about this from video footage and news reports.
So, some claim it happened, and some saw no signs of it on their own.
That's why you even have some people to this day who claim there were no planes.
(I know someone who saw one plane hit, and told me ON 9/11.)
Testimony that some people didn't see something is not considered
"proof it didn't happen" by any reputable investigator, attorney or judge.
And if vpw was still alive, and insisted he was completely innocent and is being framed,
would you say "Well, that's it, he's being framed", and turn away?
I'll save you some time-he never admitted to anything, not even a lie when caught with proof he lied-
he always went to the next lie in line.
So, he'd SAY "I'm innocent, they're lying, I didn't do it."
The prisons of the US are FULL of people who claim they're 100% innocent, even with overwhelming
evidence they did it.
Death Row's got people who swear they didn't do it.
There's criminals who say they didn't do it when videotaped evidence shows them doing it.
Asking vpw would tell us little.
When he was alive, he silenced critics before they had a chance to speak.
That's clever, effective, efficient,
and shows PREMEDITATION
and AWARENESS THAT HE WAS DOING WRONG.
We know full well how he responded when alive.
He did such a good job that people to this day can face his victims and say
"You're lying."
Did Jesus pay the price for vpw's sins?
Yes, and that's STILL a non-issue,
unless you're saying what he did was completely excusable.
Johniam really ISN'T reading what's written here.
He's responding to the imaginings he CAN'T HELP IMAGINE
(his own words)
which take discussing the factual accounts, eyewitness testimony,
and occasionally, direct quotes from vpw,
and translates that into some account of satan the accuser.
Of course, this is what vpw taught to do with any criticism of vpw,
no matter how fact-filled.
In the case of Johniam (and perhaps others), vpw succeeded beyond
his wildest expectations.
John can't even HELP himself stop this mental matinee of imagery,
Maybe you would feel differently if it was your teenaged daughter that entered the wow program or way corpes with stars in her eyes ...a heart full of love to learn how to serve God...only to find themselves far from home and family and learning that it was decided that YOUR particular ministry was to sexually service the man of God?
Open your heart and think for a miniute about our sisters faced with this delmma. The betrayal of trust...Life for these girls were horrible if they refused...they were declared posessed so that nobody would listen to them if they told....if it seemed that they were going to be believed...they were thrown out of the ministry and program. It has been substantiated by top level leaders...that unwilling girls were slipped drugs in their drinks....only to awake and find themselves in bed with the mog.
Think about our brothers who entered these programs pure of heart only to find out in time that their wives were expected to service the mogs...one of them suicided when lcm prevented his wife from leaving.
For a miniute think about what was happening to our sisters and brothers behind the scenes after these men left the teaching stage.
I don`t think what we learned was worth the devistation of one single trusting souls life.....and there were so many.
Each of those souls were precious, their treatment unconscionable.....in my book.
Yeah, you bet I believe the organization was corrupt.
This issue keeps getting brought up,
and somehow it remains UNADDRESSED.
SOME people are skipping past it.
Perhaps they've missed it in all the text.
Perhaps they'll see it now...
Then again,
perhaps all they'll see is some sort of satanic attack and not resolve the concepts at all...
I read that post - I'm not sure that there a response necessary. You prayed, you got your prayer answered.
God's relationship with His people doesn't rely on the goodness or corruptness of the organization that claims to represent God. We see this over and over in the Old Testament where the King is said to be evil but the people are still blessed.
I think its inaccurate to assume that just because a ministry is good or bad that will reflect on how God relates to the people involved. The two are not necessarily mutually inclusive.
Let's see, VPW comes on to me in the motorcoach. Tells me in graphic detail what he wants to do, and why his wife cannot have sex with him. Also told me, I was the only person he had ever told this too, I better not ever tell anyone this. In disgust I leave, figuring, it must be just a one off weird thing. Years later, I learn this was the standard line he gave all of his prospects.
LCM visiting Emporia, twice I had to walk out of his room.
One of my best friends in an early corps, VP set his eyes on her, and had to have her. He sent on of his early corps girls to go make friends with her. It took almost all year, before they finally talked her into it.
It was all about lock-box, those who were "spiritual enough" to handle it.
They probably knew you would never go for this Jean, so obviously you were never approached, and had no clue, and they made sure you never would.
When this same friend told me in candor, all the corps women VP had, plus all of the women in other towns and cities as he traveled around - the number is huge - this was no small time thing. VP had a woman in every port. When he tired of them, they were passed to Howard and Dean. When I took the blinders off and realized what had been going on, I literally felt sick - nauseaous, sick to my stomach. I believe it was God taking the blinders off.
When VP went to California in the '60s to get a piece of the Jesus movement for himself, on his off time, he would go to the infamous SF porno movie theaters. I talked about it with the Rev. who accompanied him. He wondered why VP loved the porno stuff so much, but figured it was a boys will be boys thing.
VP looked up one specific leader in SF, because he thought that one was a regular orgy goer. VP discussed with him, how it was ok from the Word and was looking for other Christians who were into it.
VP, screwing a little 16 year old groovy christian of Rye girl in the early days in NY. She tried to make it through the corps, but never did.
All of this is the tip of the iceberg.
These are first hand accounts.
Ever wonder about DM's best friends, all ladies? You did not become her friend, unless you had been with VP. I call it, the sex club. Of course they stuck together, who else would "understand" or could they talk about it with?
If you were not in the "inner circle" you would not know.
As far as I'm concerned, VP was a sick puppy, a sexual predator who was like a Rooster in a hen house. I do not believe he was born again. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing, satan's angel of light masquerading as a minister of God.
No wonder he started saying a year before he died, I wish I were the man I knew to be. Too late.
Man, is it hot in here or is it me?
I don't think anyone is denying the fact that there were many fine men and women in The Way.
Nor do I think anyone is ignoring that there were local areas where these things were not the norm.
The fact remains, however, that this line of thinking and modus operandi was deeply rooted at the highest level.
Herein lies the gist of the issue, at least in my opinion.
We are discussing what happened at the International Headquarters level, not what happened in Philly, LA, Detroit or Cleveland.(Lot's of good stuff happened in Cleveland.I know because I was there)
We are discussing the reality that VPW said one thing and did quite another.
We are discussing the fact that he had an inner circle of people who knew full well what was really going on and participated as well.
We are discussing the reality that lots and lots of innocent people were duped by VPs' deliberate falsehoods and many paid a very high price for their involvement even though they may have participated quite innocently with the best of intentions in their hearts.
And lastly, we are faced with having to admit to ourselves that we were commited, heart and soul, to a cause that was,perhaps, built on false pretenses.
Jean – I know this is a lot to take in. This stuff sounds so appalling…shocking…unbelievable…and unless a person was a member of the Way Corps [the people who were trained by and worked forTWI] they may never fully understand how VPW sabotaged people's moral compass and laid the groundwork for sexual predators like himself. I was in the Family Corps – and if you have a hard time believing first hand accounts because you do not know the person – you may want to consider the implications of something that was experienced by all Corps and on occasion even some TWI followers who were not Corps…At some point during Corps training everyone gets to see one of VPW's favorite videos – a dog having sex with a woman.
VPW's Christian Family and Sex Class was only a hint of his lascivious attitudes. When I was in residence – VPW had a pajama part [an informal setting for making a good soft-sell of his perverted lifestyle] and showed us that porn video – remember I said I was in Family Corps – there were teens present! At one point during the pajama party VPW invited a sixteen year old girl to the front of the room and shows her this pen as he describes to the rest of us that it has little figures of a man and a woman having sex and you make them do it by moving the pen up and down. VPW's very presence always had the power to sedate the intellectual and moral functions of his most devote followers – there we were cutting up with jokes during the video – he's laughing along with us – all the while slipping in all that nonsense about how he's so renewed his mind that this doesn't bother him or shock him.
There's something you can verify for yourself. Talk to any Corps that you know. Think about what that says of VPW's character…of his morals…Do you think it's acceptable for a supposed minister of God to do things like this? The general public were sold a certain persona – a façade really – all painted up to look like the man of god for this day and time and hour.
This is a hard pill to swallow. The first thing that happens to folks is shock – they go numb…don't know what to think, feel, or what to do…Then it's denial – "Naw – can't be – I couldn't have been tricked – why would God let this happen?" It takes a lot of strength and courage to move on from there. I wish you the best and encourage you to just listen, think, question, consider, and look into any of the issues that capture your attention.
No. Nothing to do with guts though. Still just really not interested enough.
Interested enough to criticize anyone who posts their account,
or believes their account,
but not interested enough to READ their account.
What interests people is a very personal thing.
Me, I'd read both sides of the story, but that interests me.
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I don't need you to agree with me. I don't need you to say I'm right. I asked you to consider and you said you would - 'nuff said.
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rascal
I thought so...you didn`t know or spend any time with lcm or vpw...or any amount of time at hq....and yet you presume to know more than the people who DID interact with them on a daily basis...who DID experience the double standards taught...who were required to submit sexually or be thrown out of God`s ministry.
Did you have the courage to read sunesis` account? She is not the only reputable poster here who saw and experienced the same thing.
Face it...All you EVER saw was the shined up polished *public* side that they wanted you to see.
Hell, I knew people from the early corpes as well....(I even knew a bot member fairly well)....*I* was told on the wow field by the lc`s (they were in the 1st and 2nd corpes) that sex was no big deal. (they too had been required to abort a child while in the program) I was told that it ONLY became a big deal if it prevented you from honoring your commitment to God. ...ie got pregnant and tried to leave. I have found out since leaving that the same lc used to chase my wow sister around his desk trying to get into her pants every time we were called down there for a meeting.
It was ALSO my experience that people dismissed for sexual indescretions (I knew someone as well) were asked to leave not because the sex was bad..(all things being lawfull etc) ...but because they had been caught and it was public...causing people to stumble.
Up untill this point as a wow and app corpes.....I had believed as you.....the entire 6 years prior of my ministry involvement that sex was not permissable unless you were married. I would have been shoulder to shoulder with you arguing with people in denial of what happened untill some of the bad things happened to me. Untill I met people who were finally allowed to tell what had happened and why they mysteriously disappeared.
Jean, your answer didn`t make any sense about in the beginning. How does that line up with what Jesus taught and what is in galatians 5? It seems like you have to dismiss an awfull lot of scripture to maintain your pov.
Yeah sure, I agree with you that there were lots of great folks in twi ... we were some of them. Unfortunately, that is why the leaders were able to keep their natures hidden.
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Ham
They kept EVERYTHING. "birth to da corpses" paper, "evaluations", "leaders" comments and impressions.
Personally, I'd be kinda "creeped out" to find the then "mog" had his greasy fingers on MY personal data, thinking of the "possibilities".
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Jeaniam
No such paper on me exists because I never wrote one.
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Jeaniam
I don't presume anything. I have said from the beginning that I don't know and I am not prepared to take it upon myself to sit in judgment as you have. There is only One who knows the whole truth about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and He's not talking. I am appalled that you in your arrogance and hubris take it upon yourself to pry into other people's pain under the guise of "We need to get at the truth".
I didn't have the INTEREST to read her account. Considering my only interaction with her, I'm not so sure I'm going to concede that she's a reputable poster.
All I ever saw was men and women of integrity trying to do their best for God and His Word. I don't concede that that falls under the category of the "shined up polished public side".
And, finally, that wasn't me, that was John. You need to pay attention.
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rascal
uhhhh Jean my reading skills are fine...my questions were directed at you.....sooooooo you did not have the courage to read her first hand account? Wouldn`t that be very relevent to the topic at hand?
You who have never met the top ministry leaders??? You have never been in the way corpes and exposed to the abuses?
So far it seems like you don`t want to know the truth. You accused people here of not being able to present first hand testimony...now you are making up excuses why you don`t read it.
I guess that it is a lot easier to live with ones fantasies of what they wish was right .... than it is to come to grips with the reality of the situation have to re evaluate ones entire understanding.
I think that just answered the question posed in this thread.
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Ham
However, I know a few who indeed did.
That's nice. If it's "negative", or bursts the illusion that all was so fine and dandy, you don't accept the truthfulness of the account.
What about the others?
ah. "negative", must not be telling the truth, doesn't agree with "reality".
We were conned. The job was so good, people still don't know that they paid for a cart of horse manure with the blood, innocence and sanity of their own brethren.
"what did the 'word' cost you?"
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Eyesopen
Hmm...hadn't thought of that. I lived a Norman Rockwell childhood. Nothing sinister to report. Hmmm...more pieces fall into place.
May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP? If so you should know that he was not the only one alive nor involved in TWI 20 to 30 years ago. Other people were there, living in the same place as him, eating the same food, breathing the same air. They also would know what happened. Would it not be prudent to listen to them?
If you do not think so then please explain why their accounts are worth so little and his so much.
I...just can't believe you said that. <_<
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RainbowsGirl
Dear Jean,
Please take the time to think about all the things that is being said in this thread and other threads too! I know that I was very shocked and hurt to find all this to be true particularily, about VPW as I was one like you who never knew there was a cover up and certainly thought that at least VP was not involed. For the past ten years I have been without TWI members in my life; not really marked and avoided for arguing with a twig leader...I guess that I wasn't even valuable enough for that. I have read a lot of threads here and I don't believe that they are making it up. I have been in TWI since 1972. All that I have read confirms my suspicions. Josh's Father was my Twig leader and he seduced me in the identical manner VPW and LCM did. Not only that I later found out he had seduced quite a few women in our branch! This was in 1975....long before LCM took the reigns. I don't place the blame entirely on Josh's father..I am in part to blame for believing him. Many people here are talking about women who were premeditatively hand picked drugged abused and further threatened!
I can look back now and know where my son's father was coming from as I remember our conversations. I finally figured out it was the true love and service of the true believers that I love and God!
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doojable
Perhaps Jean is talking about God when she refers to only ONE and HE.
May I submit that God doesn't need to talk if there are others talking. And if they were there, they have the authority to speak.
Now Jean I realize that you doubt whether or not these folks were there. (At least I think that's what you've been saying.)
If VPW were alive and he were guilty - do you really think he would admit to these wrongs? I've never heard of a sexual predator admitting to his acts.
I realize that you want to remain non-judgmental. I'm not so sure that means that reason doesn't apply. IMHO - it is not "judgmental" to call a thief a thief. Now, saying that he can't change - that may be judgmental.
In this case though, VPW can't change because he's dead. Many of his followers and supporters can change.
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waysider
This is not directed at any particular post or poster.
I was never in the WC so I never had to write the aforementioned paper.
I do recall, however, having to fill out a rather personal questionnaire as part of the Christian Family and Sex class.(as a student)
Later, as a class instructor, I recall having the students fill out the same questionnaire and being instructed by HQ to immediately seal them in an envelope without looking at them and sending them to HQ. This would have been in about'73 or '74.
What was the purpose of this? Was it somehow related to all this stuff? I don't know the answer to those questions. Seeing it in retrospect, however, it is kinda creepy to think of a so-called "ministry" having any valid need to know personal information of this nature about people they were not professionally counselling or actively involved with in some sort of therapy.
Anybody remember those questionnaires?
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rascal
That IS wierd waysider. Another wierd piece of the puzzle in addition to the birth to the corpes paper...one of the requirements for entry into the corpes was a complete physical one of the required test being one that was specifically for std`s. Gotta protect those mogs I guess. (I wonder if this requirement came after Howard A nearly died of herpe`s simplex 3)
Pretty stunning that this would be necessary for entry into a christian ministry.
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bfh
Waysider
I don't remember filling out a questionnaire for CF&S, but that doesn't mean that I didn't; I just don't recall.
However, I do remember, when I was at Emporia, those of us in the College Division took the Myers-Briggs psychological test. Supposedly, this was to help us figure out how to better get along in groups by knowing another person's personality type.
Only problem is that we each got our individual results but not really any kind of follow up so that we could put the knowledge into practice.
Even at that time, I thought it odd that a spiritual organization would be giving psychological tests.
Wonder what information they were really after?
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T-Bone
Jean – I know this is a lot to take in. This stuff sounds so appalling…shocking…unbelievable…and unless a person was a member of the Way Corps [the people who were trained by and worked for TWI] they may never fully understand how VPW sabotaged people's moral compass and laid the groundwork for sexual predators like himself. I was in the Family Corps – and if you have a hard time believing first hand accounts because you do not know the person – you may want to consider the implications of something that was experienced by all Corps and on occasion even some TWI followers who were not Corps…At some point during Corps training everyone gets to see one of VPW's favorite videos – a dog having sex with a woman.
VPW's Christian Family and Sex Class was only a hint of his lascivious attitudes. When I was in residence – VPW had a pajama part [an informal setting for making a good soft-sell of his perverted lifestyle] and showed us that porn video – remember I said I was in Family Corps – there were teens present! At one point during the pajama party VPW invited a sixteen year old girl to the front of the room and shows her this pen as he describes to the rest of us that it has little figures of a man and a woman having sex and you make them do it by moving the pen up and down. VPW's very presence always had the power to sedate the intellectual and moral functions of his most devote followers – there we were cutting up with jokes during the video – he's laughing along with us – all the while slipping in all that nonsense about how he's so renewed his mind that this doesn't bother him or shock him.
There's something you can verify for yourself. Talk to any Corps that you know. Think about what that says of VPW's character…of his morals…Do you think it's acceptable for a supposed minister of God to do things like this? The general public were sold a certain persona – a façade really – all painted up to look like the man of god for this day and time and hour.
This is a hard pill to swallow. The first thing that happens to folks is shock – they go numb…don't know what to think, feel, or what to do…Then it's denial – "Naw – can't be – I couldn't have been tricked – why would God let this happen?" It takes a lot of strength and courage to move on from there. I wish you the best and encourage you to just listen, think, question, consider, and look into any of the issues that capture your attention.
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johniam
quote: May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP?
Actually, it's God (note the word One is capitalized). Jean's right here and OKd me responding for her. I want to interject something since jean and I have stirred up such dust and since we may be ousted soon.
I have been posting since April 2000 on Waydale first GSC second. I've had 7 yrs to interact and think about how this website works. Jean had not been interested until very recently. Sure, I'll advise her about certain situations and tell her what I think she should know about certain posters, but she posts what she wants to. We just happen to be very like minded about this stuff. Maybe to some of you it has been a novelty for her to be posting, but you will probably write her off as the same kind of "Wierwille defender" that you regard me as.
I still firmly believe in the Hope of the return of Jesus Christ which will result in, among other things, all tears being wiped from the eyes of those who inherit eternal life, especially those who have been wronged by VP/TWI. But I refuse to allow these stories to rob me of the peace I received in Christ through PFAL. I still hopefully have plenty of living left. If that makes me offensive to you, then it does.
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rascal
THAT isn`t what makes you offensive John.....stop kidding yourself..lol :)
It is when you insist on calling people liars and sociopaths for being mad at their bad treatment from someone that we should have been able to safely trust that people get a little testy.
Has jean had the guts to read sunisis or dot`s first hand accounts of experiences with vp yet?
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WhiteDove
I do and there were no names on them to associate them with anyone. The reason for enclosing them in an envelope and sending them off without looking them over was to keep the data private, in case you recognized someones handwriting. I believe the data was supposed to be for feedback for direction in future classses, but I don't think that ever happened .
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Eyesopen
I was kind of hoping that it was God to whom she was referring. But I wasn't entirely certain, given the many times that the idea that VP was dead now and could not speak for himself idea had been repeated. I am glad that you cleared up that misunderstanding up for me.
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Eyesopen
I don't recall any questionaires in CFS. That doesn't mean that there weren't any I just don't remember it. I remember being VERY uncomfortable in the class. Both when I took it (every time I took it) and when I instructed it. In my mind the ministry (or most of the people in it) really didn't have the proper credentials or education to be teaching such a class in the manner that they taught it. Of course I felt the same way about the biblical counselling class.
Now I know where my LC and his wife got their "permission" to show Lesbian Porn to the TC and BC wives. So glad I walked out on that one...
Edited to correct poor spelling.
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Jeaniam
No. Nothing to do with guts though. Still just really not interested enough.
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WordWolf
AHA.
That explains it.
The WordWolf post preceeding this most immediately was THIS ONE HERE....
Johniam really ISN'T reading what's written here.
He's responding to the imaginings he CAN'T HELP IMAGINE
(his own words)
which take discussing the factual accounts, eyewitness testimony,
and occasionally, direct quotes from vpw,
and translates that into some account of satan the accuser.
Of course, this is what vpw taught to do with any criticism of vpw,
no matter how fact-filled.
In the case of Johniam (and perhaps others), vpw succeeded beyond
his wildest expectations.
John can't even HELP himself stop this mental matinee of imagery,
He's a victim, too.
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WordWolf
This issue keeps getting brought up,
and somehow it remains UNADDRESSED.
SOME people are skipping past it.
Perhaps they've missed it in all the text.
Perhaps they'll see it now...
Then again,
perhaps all they'll see is some sort of satanic attack and not resolve the concepts at all...
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WordWolf
Interested enough to criticize anyone who posts their account,
or believes their account,
but not interested enough to READ their account.
What interests people is a very personal thing.
Me, I'd read both sides of the story, but that interests me.
That doesn't interest EVERYONE.
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Oakspear
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