hey probably knew you would never go for this Jean, so obviously you were never approached, and had no clue, and they made sure you never would.
Yeah. "They" also had all of the paperwork from your past, the paper where you "spilled your guts" and told them everything about your background. Plus evaluations, etc. etc.
They KNEW who would be pliable, who would submit, who would talk, and who wouldn't.
Eyes, I talked with somebody who knew vpw back then. I have read others who were told the same thing....It has been said that it was indeed in papers...that he got caught with his secretary....shrug This I have never seen.
I do remember vpw talking at the advanced class.....how he had moved out into a motel room to get some peace and quiet and study....but that the gossip and tongues in town were wagging about divorce and stuff.
I have to wonder in hind sight if he wasn`t telling that story in case any of this resurfaced.
I have no proof, only that the story has been told from several different sources.
One fellow that came into chat for a while... said that his mother went to school with vpw. She told some really interesting stories of him back in the day.
Rascal, thanks for replying. He was an amazingly insiduous man wasnt he?! He was good at what he did, steal, kill and destroy. I believe that this particular verse is refering to the "false ministers" and not the Devil himself.
Perhaps Sunesis is correct, VP may never have been born again. That certainly would put a new twist on everything and expain a few things as well. It is hard to imagine our brother in Christ being so horrible and evil. But then I remember that it was Judas who betrayed Christ himself. Then it is not quite so "hard" to imagine.
Just thinking out loud. Please continue the discussion.
As I have heard the truth (and actually digested it this time) I have changed my mind. Does this make me wise? Maybe a little. :P
Jean, can you put aside your irritation with me for just a miniute and read sunesis last post? It is really important.
Can you read the posts from the people who actually met and knew this man?
I would be willing to bet that you had very little actual dealings with top twi leadership on a personal basis or this wouldn`t come as such a shock nor would be defending them so staunchly.
Can you contemplate the significance of the lifestyle of these men? The implications to be drawn from these people who embraced evil as a life style?
They are completely unworthy of your defense or respect. They hurt our brothers and sisters in the name of God.
Yes, vp did some horendous things to God's kids. no doubt. But, my opinion of him is a result of comparing him to Jesus Christ...and I don't mean to sound all religious here. But vp's life becomes glaringly ungodly in comparison. Of course, we all fall short of being the godly people the Father would have us to be, but, IMHO, vp broke most, if not all, of the principles the Word speaks of regarding leadership of the church...let alone as to being one of the members in particular.
I hear all these accounts of abuse as, primarily, an alert to pray for those harmed and to reach out a hand of friendship and love, not to amass a list of offences against vp. vp's made that list all on his own...God doesn't need my assistance for that. What I can do regarding vp is warn others who might fall prey to his legacy's traps. Therein is the value I see in posting these personal accounts. Beyond that, I only try to point people to Jesus Christ as THE leader, and the ONLY one to be followed.
Excellent Listener, I think that it is important to understand exactly who these guys were in order to recognise thought patterns and beliefs that are detrimental to ourselves and others.
Some of the things we learned are trult limiting to ourselves.
Prayers for who was used despitefully, for those who wander confused and hurt is am putstanding idea.
Eyes, that is part of what is so good about greasespot. We get to talk, to compare notes. We get to view other pieces of the puzzle in order to get an better over all picture of what happened in twi.
I dunno, TWI was some peoples' Mayflower and others' Titanic.
quote: Johniam, it seemed to me to be more than just a re-quote of rascal's sig. If that assumption was wrong, then I stand corrected and I sincerely appologize to Jeaniam for my insolent remark, and for jumping to an inaccurate assumption.
No big deal; it just made me think that you thought Jean just sat down and went..."OK, UH, UH, I'll call her...uh, the...MISTRESS OF DARKNESS!!! THAT'S IT! Yeah, THAT'll teach her...heh, heh.." Naw, nothing like that. It WAS a "poke in the ribs" but nothing more.
How would that line up with Jesus` teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit? With him it seemed that spiritual wholesomness was either one or the other.
That seems to be substantiated in galatians chpt 5.
The despicable part of it.. those jackasses who willfully, with premeditation, chose their victims were the same ones sitting up front, sharing "der verd", acting as the most holy..
we "learned" from hypocrites, and worse.
At least ONE lady was confronted with vics "greatness" as he sat there with her evaluation and other paper work IN HAND.
He chose his victims based on the data he had on the corps. That little "my life before the corpses" paper showed him who would do what. People with past abuse were often the ones singled out.
and if IF he was....he DID sin against us.... that is re writing the word of God HOW?????
*We all wrestle not against flesh and blood*, sure but vpw didn`t put up ANY kind of fight at all....he simply searched the scriptures for verses to twist into permission for him to embrace and indulge in his fleshly nature.
I dunno, TWI was some peoples' Mayflower and others' Titanic...
The passengers on the Mayflower were transported to a real place. The passengers on the Titanic planned on having a safe and pleasurable voyage to a real place.
Sunesis, thanks for sharing that stuff – people need to see the big picture of TWI.
What the Hey, I understand what you're saying about the spiritual battle. When I was in TWI – they did such a fine job of getting followers to be "spiritual" minded that followers gave little thought to the role of flesh and blood. Even though Ephesians 6 is very picturesque in describing the whole armor of God – I think the practical application of it was lost with people who compartmentalize their doctrines - that see no relationship between spirituality and what they do in their physical bodies.
The Corinthians had a problem with that – not realizing they were supposed to glorify God [a very spiritual act] in everything they do. How else would the directive to put on the belt of truth apply if it did not mean I should submit to the truth in all I do? How else do I put on the breastplate of righteousness if I don't follow God's righteous moral standard?
Ephesians 6:10 ESV
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints…
Romans 13 has another interesting reference to armor – and also ties it together with our conduct. Interesting too - that it also equates putting on the armor of light with putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. It appears the purpose of this armor is to prepare us for battle against temptations of flesh and blood [doing wrong to a neighbor, adultery, drunkenness, etc.].
Romans 13: 8-14 ESV
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
Yeah. "They" also had all of the paperwork from your past, the paper where you "spilled your guts" and told them everything about your background. Plus evaluations, etc. etc.
They KNEW who would be pliable, who would submit, who would talk, and who wouldn't.
No such paper on me exists.
Well said Listener...(I think that you were right btw about more than re quote of my sig)
Oh, I'll clarify my intent. It was intended to demonstrate contempt for you. And BTW, The post where you used the phrase about people being not spiritually sophisticated to be able to handle the truth, your meaning is at best ambiguous, and at worst a lie.
I would be willing to bet that you had very little actual dealings with top twi leadership on a personal basis or this wouldn`t come as such a shock nor would be defending them so staunchly.
I knew some people who graduated in the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th Corps. I am not defending the men who (allegedly) did these things. I am defending the many fine men and women who would never do such things, nor tolerate them if they knew about them. As I have said before in the areas where I was the "doctrine" was that abstinence was the best plan, it was grounds for being dismissed from the WOW field, and I know personally of men (one of whom was a good friend of John's) that were removed from positions of leadership for sexual indiscretions, usually not a month or a week later, but the very same day the BC learned about their escapades. One of these episodes didn't even involve another believer or involve any thing approaching rape; it involved a man who hired a prostitute (which while still being a sin, at least just involved a prostitute doing what prostitutes do. I know that still doesn't excuse it). My point is that there were many fine men and women who took a stand against sexual indiscretions, and they do not deserve to be tarred with the same brush as the (possibly few) perverts.
The Corps were all required to write a paper
"The Way for Me - From Birth to the Corps"
I never entered the Corps. Dooj, 'Vive la difference' to you, too.
Jean - I was just letting you know. I may have misread - but that last statement came across as sarcastic. Was it meant to be?
I think I've been fairly calm and even toned in all of this. I will tell you that that paper was used to figure out which women had a better chance of being manipulated sexually.
I'm glad you didn't have to write that paper. I'm glad you didn't go through a lot of what has been described.
quote: How would that line up with Jesus` teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit?
How would "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" line up with Jesus' teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit?
I don't think anyone is denying the fact that there were many fine men and women in The Way.
Nor do I think anyone is ignoring that there were local areas where these things were not the norm.
The fact remains, however, that this line of thinking and modus operandi was deeply rooted at the highest level.
Herein lies the gist of the issue, at least in my opinion.
We are discussing what happened at the International Headquarters level, not what happened in Philly, LA, Detroit or Cleveland.(Lot's of good stuff happened in Cleveland.I know because I was there)
We are discussing the reality that VPW said one thing and did quite another.
We are discussing the fact that he had an inner circle of people who knew full well what was really going on and participated as well.
We are discussing the reality that lots and lots of innocent people were duped by VPs' deliberate falsehoods and many paid a very high price for their involvement even though they may have participated quite innocently with the best of intentions in their hearts.
And lastly, we are faced with having to admit to ourselves that we were commited, heart and soul, to a cause that was,perhaps, built on false pretenses.
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Ham
Yeah. "They" also had all of the paperwork from your past, the paper where you "spilled your guts" and told them everything about your background. Plus evaluations, etc. etc.
They KNEW who would be pliable, who would submit, who would talk, and who wouldn't.
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Ham
In a way, I can see how someone can deny or minimize this kind of thing. It's too "shocking", too "heavy"..
really is a blow to what some people think of as "reality".
This kind of premeditated abuse and rape of God's people really show the depths of evil that was the underbelly of twi.
Still there. Rosie KNEW. Donna KNEW.
At least loy is gone.. one step in the right direction..
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rascal
oops...double post
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Eyesopen
Rascal, thanks for replying. He was an amazingly insiduous man wasnt he?! He was good at what he did, steal, kill and destroy. I believe that this particular verse is refering to the "false ministers" and not the Devil himself.
Perhaps Sunesis is correct, VP may never have been born again. That certainly would put a new twist on everything and expain a few things as well. It is hard to imagine our brother in Christ being so horrible and evil. But then I remember that it was Judas who betrayed Christ himself. Then it is not quite so "hard" to imagine.
Just thinking out loud. Please continue the discussion.
As I have heard the truth (and actually digested it this time) I have changed my mind. Does this make me wise? Maybe a little. :P
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rascal
Thank you sunesis. Thank you for sharing this first hand information ...Thank you for putting it out there for everyone to see.
People need to KNOW what this man is like so that the absolute necessity of re evaluating what he taught us is understood.
Your accounts lend support and added details to my friends accounts.
I have to agree, I seriously doubt that vpw was a genuine christian. You just plain don`t DO those things to your brothers and sisters.
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rascal
Jean, can you put aside your irritation with me for just a miniute and read sunesis last post? It is really important.
Can you read the posts from the people who actually met and knew this man?
I would be willing to bet that you had very little actual dealings with top twi leadership on a personal basis or this wouldn`t come as such a shock nor would be defending them so staunchly.
Can you contemplate the significance of the lifestyle of these men? The implications to be drawn from these people who embraced evil as a life style?
They are completely unworthy of your defense or respect. They hurt our brothers and sisters in the name of God.
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Listener
Yes, vp did some horendous things to God's kids. no doubt. But, my opinion of him is a result of comparing him to Jesus Christ...and I don't mean to sound all religious here. But vp's life becomes glaringly ungodly in comparison. Of course, we all fall short of being the godly people the Father would have us to be, but, IMHO, vp broke most, if not all, of the principles the Word speaks of regarding leadership of the church...let alone as to being one of the members in particular.
I hear all these accounts of abuse as, primarily, an alert to pray for those harmed and to reach out a hand of friendship and love, not to amass a list of offences against vp. vp's made that list all on his own...God doesn't need my assistance for that. What I can do regarding vp is warn others who might fall prey to his legacy's traps. Therein is the value I see in posting these personal accounts. Beyond that, I only try to point people to Jesus Christ as THE leader, and the ONLY one to be followed.
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rascal
Excellent Listener, I think that it is important to understand exactly who these guys were in order to recognise thought patterns and beliefs that are detrimental to ourselves and others.
Some of the things we learned are trult limiting to ourselves.
Prayers for who was used despitefully, for those who wander confused and hurt is am putstanding idea.
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rascal
Eyes, that is part of what is so good about greasespot. We get to talk, to compare notes. We get to view other pieces of the puzzle in order to get an better over all picture of what happened in twi.
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johniam
I dunno, TWI was some peoples' Mayflower and others' Titanic.
quote: Johniam, it seemed to me to be more than just a re-quote of rascal's sig. If that assumption was wrong, then I stand corrected and I sincerely appologize to Jeaniam for my insolent remark, and for jumping to an inaccurate assumption.
No big deal; it just made me think that you thought Jean just sat down and went..."OK, UH, UH, I'll call her...uh, the...MISTRESS OF DARKNESS!!! THAT'S IT! Yeah, THAT'll teach her...heh, heh.." Naw, nothing like that. It WAS a "poke in the ribs" but nothing more.
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rascal
How would that line up with Jesus` teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit? With him it seemed that spiritual wholesomness was either one or the other.
That seems to be substantiated in galatians chpt 5.
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Ham
The despicable part of it.. those jackasses who willfully, with premeditation, chose their victims were the same ones sitting up front, sharing "der verd", acting as the most holy..
we "learned" from hypocrites, and worse.
At least ONE lady was confronted with vics "greatness" as he sat there with her evaluation and other paper work IN HAND.
He chose his victims based on the data he had on the corps. That little "my life before the corpses" paper showed him who would do what. People with past abuse were often the ones singled out.
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What The Hey
Amazing how we all re-write the Word of God. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood ... until a brother or sister in Christ sins against us.
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rascal
?? and if he wasn`t our brother???
and if IF he was....he DID sin against us.... that is re writing the word of God HOW?????
*We all wrestle not against flesh and blood*, sure but vpw didn`t put up ANY kind of fight at all....he simply searched the scriptures for verses to twist into permission for him to embrace and indulge in his fleshly nature.
You aren`t making any sense.
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T-Bone
The passengers on the Mayflower were transported to a real place. The passengers on the Titanic planned on having a safe and pleasurable voyage to a real place.
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T-Bone
Sunesis, thanks for sharing that stuff – people need to see the big picture of TWI.
What the Hey, I understand what you're saying about the spiritual battle. When I was in TWI – they did such a fine job of getting followers to be "spiritual" minded that followers gave little thought to the role of flesh and blood. Even though Ephesians 6 is very picturesque in describing the whole armor of God – I think the practical application of it was lost with people who compartmentalize their doctrines - that see no relationship between spirituality and what they do in their physical bodies.
The Corinthians had a problem with that – not realizing they were supposed to glorify God [a very spiritual act] in everything they do. How else would the directive to put on the belt of truth apply if it did not mean I should submit to the truth in all I do? How else do I put on the breastplate of righteousness if I don't follow God's righteous moral standard?
Ephesians 6:10 ESV
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints…
Romans 13 has another interesting reference to armor – and also ties it together with our conduct. Interesting too - that it also equates putting on the armor of light with putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. It appears the purpose of this armor is to prepare us for battle against temptations of flesh and blood [doing wrong to a neighbor, adultery, drunkenness, etc.].
Romans 13: 8-14 ESV
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
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Jeaniam
No such paper on me exists.
Oh, I'll clarify my intent. It was intended to demonstrate contempt for you. And BTW, The post where you used the phrase about people being not spiritually sophisticated to be able to handle the truth, your meaning is at best ambiguous, and at worst a lie.
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rascal
It was a requirement for the corpes.
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doojable
The Corps were all required to write a paper
"The Way for Me - From Birth to the Corps"
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Jeaniam
I knew some people who graduated in the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th Corps. I am not defending the men who (allegedly) did these things. I am defending the many fine men and women who would never do such things, nor tolerate them if they knew about them. As I have said before in the areas where I was the "doctrine" was that abstinence was the best plan, it was grounds for being dismissed from the WOW field, and I know personally of men (one of whom was a good friend of John's) that were removed from positions of leadership for sexual indiscretions, usually not a month or a week later, but the very same day the BC learned about their escapades. One of these episodes didn't even involve another believer or involve any thing approaching rape; it involved a man who hired a prostitute (which while still being a sin, at least just involved a prostitute doing what prostitutes do. I know that still doesn't excuse it). My point is that there were many fine men and women who took a stand against sexual indiscretions, and they do not deserve to be tarred with the same brush as the (possibly few) perverts.
I never entered the Corps. Dooj, 'Vive la difference' to you, too.
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doojable
Jean - I was just letting you know. I may have misread - but that last statement came across as sarcastic. Was it meant to be?
I think I've been fairly calm and even toned in all of this. I will tell you that that paper was used to figure out which women had a better chance of being manipulated sexually.
I'm glad you didn't have to write that paper. I'm glad you didn't go through a lot of what has been described.
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Jeaniam
quote: How would that line up with Jesus` teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit?
How would "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" line up with Jesus' teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit?
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johniam
quote: Jean - I was just letting you know. I may have misread - but that last statement came across as sarcastic. Was it meant to be?
Jean says no sarcasm intended.
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waysider
Man, is it hot in here or is it me?
I don't think anyone is denying the fact that there were many fine men and women in The Way.
Nor do I think anyone is ignoring that there were local areas where these things were not the norm.
The fact remains, however, that this line of thinking and modus operandi was deeply rooted at the highest level.
Herein lies the gist of the issue, at least in my opinion.
We are discussing what happened at the International Headquarters level, not what happened in Philly, LA, Detroit or Cleveland.(Lot's of good stuff happened in Cleveland.I know because I was there)
We are discussing the reality that VPW said one thing and did quite another.
We are discussing the fact that he had an inner circle of people who knew full well what was really going on and participated as well.
We are discussing the reality that lots and lots of innocent people were duped by VPs' deliberate falsehoods and many paid a very high price for their involvement even though they may have participated quite innocently with the best of intentions in their hearts.
And lastly, we are faced with having to admit to ourselves that we were commited, heart and soul, to a cause that was,perhaps, built on false pretenses.
edited for typos
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