And in my opinion.....don't think for a minute that the "wrong doctrine" was only in the teachings and scriptures he expounded. He instilled subtle. unspoken, attitudes and reasonings that were contrary to God Word...like neglecting to assert the importance of Jesus Christ's purpose and position in the Body of Christ while promoting his own importance as THE MOG. The most of the other "leadership" simply imitated vp (in every way possible) instead of Jesus Christ.
I find the comparison intriguing though. The same people in twi who have turned a blind eye to the abuse they heaped on their own people, are also adamant holocaust deniers.
Even vp said “experience is no guarantee for truth”….kinda ironic.
Re: the 100 yrs statement, I hope no one took that to mean I was minimizing or invalidating real hurt. Just hit me in a profound way at the time, can’t really explain why.
In the neighborhood where I grew up , there were many(and I mean MANY) people who had experienced the horrors of the concentration camps of eastern Europe. These were the parents and grandparents of kids who were my age. Can you imagine how cruel it would have been to tell them "Hitler's dead, none of that matters now."
Look, I'm not saying that TWI was like a concentration camp. What I am saying is that even though VPW is dead, the effects of his actions continue to have an impact that will probably last a very long time.
Again, this is not about what Jesus Christ did for us, or how great God is, or whether we had some good times in TWI.
It is about accepting once and for all that The Way was a corrupt organization and that there were serious doctrinal problems that existed at the uppermost levels. It's about coming to grips with the realization that much of what we did there was really a fruitless effort. It hurts,I know. But it's all part of the healing process.
edited to correct some poor grammar.
I don't think I have ever said "none of that matters now". The Way BECAME a corrupt organization (unless you're using that term in the way any human organization is corrupt). A fruitless effort? No, I don't accept that. Were not the dead raised, the blind receive sight, people receive healing from various diseases? I have a feeling that someone is going to come along and say that all those healings were frauds. I deny that, but believe whatever you want.
Okay, I'll consider it. I'm not so sure that I'm ready to consider that it was the accepted "doctrine", rather than an aberration. Once again, the doctrine for all the areas I was in was that even premarital sex was a poor idea, and extra marital sex was a worse one. I don't know how many times over the years I heard the admonition; "Men keep it in your pants, Ladies keep your pants on". During my WOW year, sex with another member of your family was grounds for dismissal. In return, I'd like you to at least consider the possibility that it was not as prevalent as some say. As I said before, what if the whole truth is that the many God-loving people who wouldn't do something like that under any circumstances far outweighed the few perverts. It doesn't excuse anything but I'm going to observe that in group the size twi grew to it's impossible to control the fact that some people got involved for less than pure motives.
And, as a general aside, when you have someone using the phrase "people who are not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle the truth", I question how much some of you have learned from the mistakes of twi. The last time I heard that phrase being used, it was coming out of the mouth of (gasp, shock, awe, tell me it ain't so) twi leadership. Possibly some of you have some honesty to attain.
Jean - thanks for the consideration. I would suggest that there are ways to publically teach one thing and do quite another in private. I could give you stories - but I don't have permission from all the people involved. I do tend to keep confidences as long as it doesn't involve a coverup. I saw and heard this much more than I'd care to admit. I just didn't put the pieces together because I figured it was a bunch of leadership who couldn't keep it together. A lot of people I knew got hurt because I didnt' see that pattern soon enough.
If you heard that phrase from the lips of TWI leadership - then I would propose that it wasn't a one-time thing. It was used a lot.
The fact that someone used it here - I'd call that an attempt at sarcasm.
Jean the phrase was used...or also *spiritually mature enough to handle it*. That was what they called it. They said that *all things were *lawfull* Just don`t do something that makes you a stumbling block to your brother. The rule was for those deemed spiritually mature enough to handle their *freedoms in christ*...anything was allowable. Also once one was considered spiritually mature, they were taught about *lock box* They weren`t to speak of this because other people couldn`t handle it spiritually*...etc
That was why we who weren`t one of the *enlightened ones* rarely heard about the abuses. The ones who didn`t go along with the plan once they were enlightened were declared posessed to their families and friends and thrown out of the ministry.
That was why we rarely heard the other side of the story. That is why there were different teachings and standards.
I agree listener. I would contend that we were infected with unhealthy thought processes that even after leaving we don`t necessarily recognise as harmfull.
Waysider, great points about turning a blind idea to suffering.
Jean, I disagree, I think the way was WAS a corrupt organization from the very inception. VPW was in trouble all the way back to high school.
There was a REASON that the local folks had no respect or trust for him...and it wasn`t for the lame reason that he gave us...*a prophet is not without honor save in his own country*
He earned their contempt with his sexual misconduct dating all the way back to the church he was thrown out of.
Imagine for a moment that this discussion is not about The Way, but about the boy scouts or ymca or united way or one of the other large organizations that have had to deal with corruption of one type or another. There would be no mention of people being raised from the dead or the blind receiving sight. Those are, of course, valid topics for discussion but they would probably be best handled on another thread. In fact, a search of the archives would likely reveal there is much information already here to address these topics.
Like Dooj said, there were signs of corruption even in the early days. A lot of the stuff that I saw that was suspect, was in the mid '70's. And, as has been pointed out, I,too, thought these were isolated incidents and had no idea how widespread some of this activity was until one day a litle light bulb went off in my head and I realized"AHA! So THAT'S what that was all about!"
The "lockbox" concept was taught (publically) as far back as" Christian Family and Sex ". In that class, VPW discussed the need for marital partners to each have their own "lockbox" where they kept information regarding their sexual history locked away from their partner. Now, to a teenager taking this class, that concept might not have had so much significance. I, myself, though was an adult when I took this class and this certainly seemed like a pretty important concept. Of course, the "lockbox" being referred to in this thread has a slightly different connotation, but it is my belief that it is merely a paramutation of one and the same.(See where the little light bulbs start to glow?) It's a bit like a variation of the "let's keep this our own little secret" line that seems to be a favorite "tool of control" that pedaphiles use.
Looking back, I would have to say that it is my opinion that some of the sexual advise that VPW dished out publically was nothing more than a smokescreen, put in place so doubters would be scoffed at and told"That's not what DR. taught!"
I for one was never asked to keep a secret. See - I was the one that tried to give the benefit of the doubt. I could always be counted on to "do the right thing." So in this case I tried to wait and see if there was anymore misconduct before I went to the guy's wife - one of my good friends. I wanted to be sure before I ruined their marriage. Little did I know, this guy was sleeping with several other women in the branch.
When he realized that I knew, and that I could put two and two together -things got interesting. All of a sudden I was said to have walked away from God and His word.
It turns out, in the end that it all came tumbling down for him. One of the women he was fooling around with threatened to make it public. To silence her he ordained her! (That was her price.)
Ok enough about this. The point is that there was a "boys in the backroom" atomsphere in TWI. The fact that you didn't see it just means it was effective in your area.
Jean, I disagree, I think the way was WAS a corrupt organization from the very inception.
Well, I disagree with that, unless you're using "corrupt" in the way that any organization with people in it is "corrupt". I also object to your assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is in your phrase "not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle the truth". So much for "if you don't learn from your mistakes, you're doomed to repeat them". Some of you have already begun to repeat the same mistakes that you claim to disdain in twi.
And, Doojable, I don't agree with what you said about just because I didn't see it in the areas where I was means that the coverup or whatever you called was successful. I think that it means that there were a lot of good honest people who got involved with twi for just the reasons on the green card, and no ulterior motive whatsoever.
Ain't it grand to have the ability to think for myself, instead of being told what to think by "Rascal-Mistress of darkness".
Don`t be rediculous Jean, I never EVER said anything about people agreeing with me and spiritual sophistication...I don`t have any idea where you picked up that phrase, I don`t believe that I ever used it...other than that was what our twi leaders told us whenever we disagreed with an edict or order, or if something struck us as wrong.
...and JUST so there is no confusion on what I DID mean as far as corrupt.... I meant corrupt as in vpw was a corrupt man from his youth.
A corrupt man who was thrown out of his church for sexual indescretions....A corrupt man who *borrowed without permission* a class from a good man, added a few twists and started his own ministry.
A corrupt man who hijacked the ministries being built by christians in california....a corrupt man who taught evil doctrine making sexual servicing of the mogs a requirement for his teenaged followers....a corrupt man who was guilty of debauchery and cruelty...a man who`s vices eventually killed him.
A corrupt man who`s ministry was a detriment to many....
Yeah, I meant that I believe that the whole shebang was corrupt. You just had an awfull lot of really nice people that didn`t know any better and put their heart and souls into what they believed was a good place. The good we saw was a diredt result of their efforts....not vpw nor lcm
Just so we are absolutely clear on what I meant ...lol
quote: Everyone is still very protective of the group that they invested so much time and heart into. People seem to need to make it some how ok...they are passionate in their defense of their lifes choices...whether it makes sense in hind sight or not....
Anybody that thinks otherwise is some how ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle it...etc
This is from post #73, which jean quoted in post #87. If you were being sarcastic, don't you usually put stuff in quotes, or add lol or something? Looks to me like you think anyone who doesn't agree with you, at least on that POINT, is spiritually lame. You do have a right to that opinion and it's clear what you meant about the other stuff.
Listener: Mistress of darkness is what it says under Rascal's screen name just like under mine it says do I have kids or did I read it in a thread. By the way, I've been waiting for a response to my post #60, the last post on p.3 which was a response to your question, or was that dealt with in your post #102?
Maybe you would feel differently if it was your teenaged daughter that entered the wow program or way corpes with stars in her eyes ...a heart full of love to learn how to serve God...only to find themselves far from home and family and learning that it was decided that YOUR particular ministry was to sexually service the man of God?
Open your heart and think for a miniute about our sisters faced with this delmma. The betrayal of trust...Life for these girls were horrible if they refused...they were declared posessed so that nobody would listen to them if they told....if it seemed that they were going to be believed...they were thrown out of the ministry and program. It has been substantiated by top level leaders...that unwilling girls were slipped drugs in their drinks....only to awake and find themselves in bed with the mog.
Think about our brothers who entered these programs pure of heart only to find out in time that their wives were expected to service the mogs...one of them suicided when lcm prevented his wife from leaving.
For a miniute think about what was happening to our sisters and brothers behind the scenes after these men left the teaching stage.
I don`t think what we learned was worth the devistation of one single trusting souls life.....and there were so many.
Each of those souls were precious, their treatment unconscionable.....in my book.
Yeah, you bet I believe the organization was corrupt.
Uh John, please carefully re read the post you referred to.... follow the context carefully... In the sentences immediately prior, (the whole paragragh as a matter of fact)....I was discussing the people who still felt a need to defend their cult....not even twi per say.... That this statement is what THEY have said to and about the people who objected to the treatment recieved in the cult or at the leaders hands...
You and jean are taking this sentence completey out of context and misapplying it to yourselves....absolutely in complete opposite of WHOM was saying it and to WHOM it was being addressed :)
You are mistaken in believing that I personally would use that phrase against another.
Listener: Mistress of darkness is what it says under Rascal's screen name just like under mine it says do I have kids or did I read it in a thread. By the way, I've been waiting for a response to my post #60, the last post on p.3 which was a response to your question, or was that dealt with in your post #102?
I read that post - I'm not sure that there a response necessary. You prayed, you got your prayer answered.
God's relationship with His people doesn't rely on the goodness or corruptness of the organization that claims to represent God. We see this over and over in the Old Testament where the King is said to be evil but the people are still blessed.
I think its inaccurate to assume that just because a ministry is good or bad that will reflect on how God relates to the people involved. The two are not necessarily mutually inclusive.
A corrupt man who was thrown out of his church for sexual indescretions....
Rascal somewhere I missed this information. Is there another thread, probably archived that explaines this or a document...something so I can get the whole story so to speak. Not that I don't believe you, but I just either forgot or didn't get this information.
*Mistress of darkness* was a just a joke from a few years ago. Most people know me well enough to know that I am a harmless, pudgy, little middle aged woman. At the time, it was intended as humor through the greatest of absurdity. Occasionally somebody will still take it seriously.
Dooj, you made a great point about God`s goodness to the people not being mutually exclusive to the conduct of theos in charge.
Eyes, I talked with somebody who knew vpw back then. I have read others who were told the same thing....It has been said that it was indeed in papers...that he got caught with his secretary....shrug This I have never seen.
I do remember vpw talking at the advanced class.....how he had moved out into a motel room to get some peace and quiet and study....but that the gossip and tongues in town were wagging about divorce and stuff.
I have to wonder in hind sight if he wasn`t telling that story in case any of this resurfaced.
I have no proof, only that the story has been told from several different sources.
One fellow that came into chat for a while... said that his mother went to school with vpw. She told some really interesting stories of him back in the day.
Johniam, it seemed to me to be more than just a re-quote of rascal's sig. If that assumption was wrong, then I stand corrected and I sincerely appologize to Jeaniam for my insolent remark, and for jumping to an inaccurate assumption.
My question was based out of curiosity about your doctrinal basis as you seemed to be saying TWI's doctrines were sound and right. Your response was adequate for that purpose. I saw no need to persue it any further. I, personally, find several of TWI's foundational scriptual interpretations flawed, inaccurate, and misleading. I'm not a researcher, and can't debate in much depth in that arena. My issues are more in the area of vp twisting the simplest, foundational, biblical truths to support vp's ideas of biblical truth, and right and wrong, in general. If, in fact, those foundational concepts are flawed, then anything built on them would, of course, be flawed.
I don't presume to instruct anyone at all, nor do I think that I have some corner on truth. I simply present my views and beliefs, based on what I believe to be true, and enjoy the interplay of ideas that takes place here on GS. Opposing opinions stimulate my thought processes, and I think that's very healthy. Re-examining one's beliefs can provide the opportunity to come to a better understanding of the truth. Just because the subject is biblical, doesn't mean I can't, or shouldn't, consider other opinions.
Let's see, VPW comes on to me in the motorcoach. Tells me in graphic detail what he wants to do, and why his wife cannot have sex with him. Also told me, I was the only person he had ever told this too, I better not ever tell anyone this. In disgust I leave, figuring, it must be just a one off weird thing. Years later, I learn this was the standard line he gave all of his prospects.
LCM visiting Emporia, twice I had to walk out of his room.
One of my best friends in an early corps, VP set his eyes on her, and had to have her. He sent on of his early corps girls to go make friends with her. It took almost all year, before they finally talked her into it.
It was all about lock-box, those who were "spiritual enough" to handle it.
They probably knew you would never go for this Jean, so obviously you were never approached, and had no clue, and they made sure you never would.
When this same friend told me in candor, all the corps women VP had, plus all of the women in other towns and cities as he traveled around - the number is huge - this was no small time thing. VP had a woman in every port. When he tired of them, they were passed to Howard and Dean. When I took the blinders off and realized what had been going on, I literally felt sick - nauseaous, sick to my stomach. I believe it was God taking the blinders off.
When VP went to California in the '60s to get a piece of the Jesus movement for himself, on his off time, he would go to the infamous SF porno movie theaters. I talked about it with the Rev. who accompanied him. He wondered why VP loved the porno stuff so much, but figured it was a boys will be boys thing.
VP looked up one specific leader in SF, because he thought that one was a regular orgy goer. VP discussed with him, how it was ok from the Word and was looking for other Christians who were into it.
VP, screwing a little 16 year old groovy christian of Rye girl in the early days in NY. She tried to make it through the corps, but never did.
All of this is the tip of the iceberg.
These are first hand accounts.
Ever wonder about DM's best friends, all ladies? You did not become her friend, unless you had been with VP. I call it, the sex club. Of course they stuck together, who else would "understand" or could they talk about it with?
If you were not in the "inner circle" you would not know.
As far as I'm concerned, VP was a sick puppy, a sexual predator who was like a Rooster in a hen house. I do not believe he was born again. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing, satan's angel of light masquerading as a minister of God.
No wonder he started saying a year before he died, I wish I were the man I knew to be. Too late.
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Listener
And in my opinion.....don't think for a minute that the "wrong doctrine" was only in the teachings and scriptures he expounded. He instilled subtle. unspoken, attitudes and reasonings that were contrary to God Word...like neglecting to assert the importance of Jesus Christ's purpose and position in the Body of Christ while promoting his own importance as THE MOG. The most of the other "leadership" simply imitated vp (in every way possible) instead of Jesus Christ.
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Ham
I find the comparison intriguing though. The same people in twi who have turned a blind eye to the abuse they heaped on their own people, are also adamant holocaust deniers.
No kidding.
Here is a link to an older thread.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=162500
This is the attitude of twi's "next generation."
At this point, I don't think twi needs to be "good", I think it needs to be beaten into submission..
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another spot
Even vp said “experience is no guarantee for truth”….kinda ironic.
Re: the 100 yrs statement, I hope no one took that to mean I was minimizing or invalidating real hurt. Just hit me in a profound way at the time, can’t really explain why.
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Jeaniam
I don't think I have ever said "none of that matters now". The Way BECAME a corrupt organization (unless you're using that term in the way any human organization is corrupt). A fruitless effort? No, I don't accept that. Were not the dead raised, the blind receive sight, people receive healing from various diseases? I have a feeling that someone is going to come along and say that all those healings were frauds. I deny that, but believe whatever you want.
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Jeaniam
Doojable
Okay, I'll consider it. I'm not so sure that I'm ready to consider that it was the accepted "doctrine", rather than an aberration. Once again, the doctrine for all the areas I was in was that even premarital sex was a poor idea, and extra marital sex was a worse one. I don't know how many times over the years I heard the admonition; "Men keep it in your pants, Ladies keep your pants on". During my WOW year, sex with another member of your family was grounds for dismissal. In return, I'd like you to at least consider the possibility that it was not as prevalent as some say. As I said before, what if the whole truth is that the many God-loving people who wouldn't do something like that under any circumstances far outweighed the few perverts. It doesn't excuse anything but I'm going to observe that in group the size twi grew to it's impossible to control the fact that some people got involved for less than pure motives.
And, as a general aside, when you have someone using the phrase "people who are not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle the truth", I question how much some of you have learned from the mistakes of twi. The last time I heard that phrase being used, it was coming out of the mouth of (gasp, shock, awe, tell me it ain't so) twi leadership. Possibly some of you have some honesty to attain.
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doojable
Jean - thanks for the consideration. I would suggest that there are ways to publically teach one thing and do quite another in private. I could give you stories - but I don't have permission from all the people involved. I do tend to keep confidences as long as it doesn't involve a coverup. I saw and heard this much more than I'd care to admit. I just didn't put the pieces together because I figured it was a bunch of leadership who couldn't keep it together. A lot of people I knew got hurt because I didnt' see that pattern soon enough.
If you heard that phrase from the lips of TWI leadership - then I would propose that it wasn't a one-time thing. It was used a lot.
The fact that someone used it here - I'd call that an attempt at sarcasm.
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rascal
Jean the phrase was used...or also *spiritually mature enough to handle it*. That was what they called it. They said that *all things were *lawfull* Just don`t do something that makes you a stumbling block to your brother. The rule was for those deemed spiritually mature enough to handle their *freedoms in christ*...anything was allowable. Also once one was considered spiritually mature, they were taught about *lock box* They weren`t to speak of this because other people couldn`t handle it spiritually*...etc
That was why we who weren`t one of the *enlightened ones* rarely heard about the abuses. The ones who didn`t go along with the plan once they were enlightened were declared posessed to their families and friends and thrown out of the ministry.
That was why we rarely heard the other side of the story. That is why there were different teachings and standards.
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rascal
I agree listener. I would contend that we were infected with unhealthy thought processes that even after leaving we don`t necessarily recognise as harmfull.
Waysider, great points about turning a blind idea to suffering.
Jean, I disagree, I think the way was WAS a corrupt organization from the very inception. VPW was in trouble all the way back to high school.
There was a REASON that the local folks had no respect or trust for him...and it wasn`t for the lame reason that he gave us...*a prophet is not without honor save in his own country*
He earned their contempt with his sexual misconduct dating all the way back to the church he was thrown out of.
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waysider
Imagine for a moment that this discussion is not about The Way, but about the boy scouts or ymca or united way or one of the other large organizations that have had to deal with corruption of one type or another. There would be no mention of people being raised from the dead or the blind receiving sight. Those are, of course, valid topics for discussion but they would probably be best handled on another thread. In fact, a search of the archives would likely reveal there is much information already here to address these topics.
Like Dooj said, there were signs of corruption even in the early days. A lot of the stuff that I saw that was suspect, was in the mid '70's. And, as has been pointed out, I,too, thought these were isolated incidents and had no idea how widespread some of this activity was until one day a litle light bulb went off in my head and I realized"AHA! So THAT'S what that was all about!"
The "lockbox" concept was taught (publically) as far back as" Christian Family and Sex ". In that class, VPW discussed the need for marital partners to each have their own "lockbox" where they kept information regarding their sexual history locked away from their partner. Now, to a teenager taking this class, that concept might not have had so much significance. I, myself, though was an adult when I took this class and this certainly seemed like a pretty important concept. Of course, the "lockbox" being referred to in this thread has a slightly different connotation, but it is my belief that it is merely a paramutation of one and the same.(See where the little light bulbs start to glow?) It's a bit like a variation of the "let's keep this our own little secret" line that seems to be a favorite "tool of control" that pedaphiles use.
Looking back, I would have to say that it is my opinion that some of the sexual advise that VPW dished out publically was nothing more than a smokescreen, put in place so doubters would be scoffed at and told"That's not what DR. taught!"
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doojable
I for one was never asked to keep a secret. See - I was the one that tried to give the benefit of the doubt. I could always be counted on to "do the right thing." So in this case I tried to wait and see if there was anymore misconduct before I went to the guy's wife - one of my good friends. I wanted to be sure before I ruined their marriage. Little did I know, this guy was sleeping with several other women in the branch.
When he realized that I knew, and that I could put two and two together -things got interesting. All of a sudden I was said to have walked away from God and His word.
It turns out, in the end that it all came tumbling down for him. One of the women he was fooling around with threatened to make it public. To silence her he ordained her! (That was her price.)
Ok enough about this. The point is that there was a "boys in the backroom" atomsphere in TWI. The fact that you didn't see it just means it was effective in your area.
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coolchef
snakes
every one of them
it happened in my loving local twig too
i turned my back on it cause i thought the upper leaders were more in tap with god than i was
what a sap i was
snakes all of them
we had to take on of our lady beliveres to an abortion place cause she got knocked up by her best friends husband who was a branch leader
nice teaching twi
they sucked and still do
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Jeaniam
Well, I disagree with that, unless you're using "corrupt" in the way that any organization with people in it is "corrupt". I also object to your assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is in your phrase "not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle the truth". So much for "if you don't learn from your mistakes, you're doomed to repeat them". Some of you have already begun to repeat the same mistakes that you claim to disdain in twi.
And, Doojable, I don't agree with what you said about just because I didn't see it in the areas where I was means that the coverup or whatever you called was successful. I think that it means that there were a lot of good honest people who got involved with twi for just the reasons on the green card, and no ulterior motive whatsoever.
Ain't it grand to have the ability to think for myself, instead of being told what to think by "Rascal-Mistress of darkness".
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doojable
Jean - Rascal and I have had our share of differences of opinion. My ability to think for myself is quite safe and sound - thank you very much.
I'm fine with you disagreeing with me. I still hold to my opinion as do you. Viva la difference!
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Listener
That comment was childish and immature. Are you trying to prolong this senseless name calling to avoid discussing issues and ideas?
That technique was frequently used by TWI leadership to dismiss critics and discredit their points of view.
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rascal
Don`t be rediculous Jean, I never EVER said anything about people agreeing with me and spiritual sophistication...I don`t have any idea where you picked up that phrase, I don`t believe that I ever used it...other than that was what our twi leaders told us whenever we disagreed with an edict or order, or if something struck us as wrong.
...and JUST so there is no confusion on what I DID mean as far as corrupt.... I meant corrupt as in vpw was a corrupt man from his youth.
A corrupt man who was thrown out of his church for sexual indescretions....A corrupt man who *borrowed without permission* a class from a good man, added a few twists and started his own ministry.
A corrupt man who hijacked the ministries being built by christians in california....a corrupt man who taught evil doctrine making sexual servicing of the mogs a requirement for his teenaged followers....a corrupt man who was guilty of debauchery and cruelty...a man who`s vices eventually killed him.
A corrupt man who`s ministry was a detriment to many....
Yeah, I meant that I believe that the whole shebang was corrupt. You just had an awfull lot of really nice people that didn`t know any better and put their heart and souls into what they believed was a good place. The good we saw was a diredt result of their efforts....not vpw nor lcm
Just so we are absolutely clear on what I meant ...lol
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johniam
quote: Everyone is still very protective of the group that they invested so much time and heart into. People seem to need to make it some how ok...they are passionate in their defense of their lifes choices...whether it makes sense in hind sight or not....
Anybody that thinks otherwise is some how ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle it...etc
This is from post #73, which jean quoted in post #87. If you were being sarcastic, don't you usually put stuff in quotes, or add lol or something? Looks to me like you think anyone who doesn't agree with you, at least on that POINT, is spiritually lame. You do have a right to that opinion and it's clear what you meant about the other stuff.
Listener: Mistress of darkness is what it says under Rascal's screen name just like under mine it says do I have kids or did I read it in a thread. By the way, I've been waiting for a response to my post #60, the last post on p.3 which was a response to your question, or was that dealt with in your post #102?
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rascal
Maybe you would feel differently if it was your teenaged daughter that entered the wow program or way corpes with stars in her eyes ...a heart full of love to learn how to serve God...only to find themselves far from home and family and learning that it was decided that YOUR particular ministry was to sexually service the man of God?
Open your heart and think for a miniute about our sisters faced with this delmma. The betrayal of trust...Life for these girls were horrible if they refused...they were declared posessed so that nobody would listen to them if they told....if it seemed that they were going to be believed...they were thrown out of the ministry and program. It has been substantiated by top level leaders...that unwilling girls were slipped drugs in their drinks....only to awake and find themselves in bed with the mog.
Think about our brothers who entered these programs pure of heart only to find out in time that their wives were expected to service the mogs...one of them suicided when lcm prevented his wife from leaving.
For a miniute think about what was happening to our sisters and brothers behind the scenes after these men left the teaching stage.
I don`t think what we learned was worth the devistation of one single trusting souls life.....and there were so many.
Each of those souls were precious, their treatment unconscionable.....in my book.
Yeah, you bet I believe the organization was corrupt.
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rascal
You and jean are taking this sentence completey out of context and misapplying it to yourselves....absolutely in complete opposite of WHOM was saying it and to WHOM it was being addressed :)
You are mistaken in believing that I personally would use that phrase against another.
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doojable
I read that post - I'm not sure that there a response necessary. You prayed, you got your prayer answered.
God's relationship with His people doesn't rely on the goodness or corruptness of the organization that claims to represent God. We see this over and over in the Old Testament where the King is said to be evil but the people are still blessed.
I think its inaccurate to assume that just because a ministry is good or bad that will reflect on how God relates to the people involved. The two are not necessarily mutually inclusive.
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Eyesopen
Rascal somewhere I missed this information. Is there another thread, probably archived that explaines this or a document...something so I can get the whole story so to speak. Not that I don't believe you, but I just either forgot or didn't get this information.
Thanks.
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rascal
*Mistress of darkness* was a just a joke from a few years ago. Most people know me well enough to know that I am a harmless, pudgy, little middle aged woman. At the time, it was intended as humor through the greatest of absurdity. Occasionally somebody will still take it seriously.
Dooj, you made a great point about God`s goodness to the people not being mutually exclusive to the conduct of theos in charge.
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rascal
Eyes, I talked with somebody who knew vpw back then. I have read others who were told the same thing....It has been said that it was indeed in papers...that he got caught with his secretary....shrug This I have never seen.
I do remember vpw talking at the advanced class.....how he had moved out into a motel room to get some peace and quiet and study....but that the gossip and tongues in town were wagging about divorce and stuff.
I have to wonder in hind sight if he wasn`t telling that story in case any of this resurfaced.
I have no proof, only that the story has been told from several different sources.
One fellow that came into chat for a while... said that his mother went to school with vpw. She told some really interesting stories of him back in the day.
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Listener
Johniam, it seemed to me to be more than just a re-quote of rascal's sig. If that assumption was wrong, then I stand corrected and I sincerely appologize to Jeaniam for my insolent remark, and for jumping to an inaccurate assumption.
My question was based out of curiosity about your doctrinal basis as you seemed to be saying TWI's doctrines were sound and right. Your response was adequate for that purpose. I saw no need to persue it any further. I, personally, find several of TWI's foundational scriptual interpretations flawed, inaccurate, and misleading. I'm not a researcher, and can't debate in much depth in that arena. My issues are more in the area of vp twisting the simplest, foundational, biblical truths to support vp's ideas of biblical truth, and right and wrong, in general. If, in fact, those foundational concepts are flawed, then anything built on them would, of course, be flawed.
I don't presume to instruct anyone at all, nor do I think that I have some corner on truth. I simply present my views and beliefs, based on what I believe to be true, and enjoy the interplay of ideas that takes place here on GS. Opposing opinions stimulate my thought processes, and I think that's very healthy. Re-examining one's beliefs can provide the opportunity to come to a better understanding of the truth. Just because the subject is biblical, doesn't mean I can't, or shouldn't, consider other opinions.
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Sunesis
Let's see, VPW comes on to me in the motorcoach. Tells me in graphic detail what he wants to do, and why his wife cannot have sex with him. Also told me, I was the only person he had ever told this too, I better not ever tell anyone this. In disgust I leave, figuring, it must be just a one off weird thing. Years later, I learn this was the standard line he gave all of his prospects.
LCM visiting Emporia, twice I had to walk out of his room.
One of my best friends in an early corps, VP set his eyes on her, and had to have her. He sent on of his early corps girls to go make friends with her. It took almost all year, before they finally talked her into it.
It was all about lock-box, those who were "spiritual enough" to handle it.
They probably knew you would never go for this Jean, so obviously you were never approached, and had no clue, and they made sure you never would.
When this same friend told me in candor, all the corps women VP had, plus all of the women in other towns and cities as he traveled around - the number is huge - this was no small time thing. VP had a woman in every port. When he tired of them, they were passed to Howard and Dean. When I took the blinders off and realized what had been going on, I literally felt sick - nauseaous, sick to my stomach. I believe it was God taking the blinders off.
When VP went to California in the '60s to get a piece of the Jesus movement for himself, on his off time, he would go to the infamous SF porno movie theaters. I talked about it with the Rev. who accompanied him. He wondered why VP loved the porno stuff so much, but figured it was a boys will be boys thing.
VP looked up one specific leader in SF, because he thought that one was a regular orgy goer. VP discussed with him, how it was ok from the Word and was looking for other Christians who were into it.
VP, screwing a little 16 year old groovy christian of Rye girl in the early days in NY. She tried to make it through the corps, but never did.
All of this is the tip of the iceberg.
These are first hand accounts.
Ever wonder about DM's best friends, all ladies? You did not become her friend, unless you had been with VP. I call it, the sex club. Of course they stuck together, who else would "understand" or could they talk about it with?
If you were not in the "inner circle" you would not know.
As far as I'm concerned, VP was a sick puppy, a sexual predator who was like a Rooster in a hen house. I do not believe he was born again. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing, satan's angel of light masquerading as a minister of God.
No wonder he started saying a year before he died, I wish I were the man I knew to be. Too late.
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