Well, I guess you can withhold your trust from VPW (who is the only one I'm discussing here) but I'm not sure I see the point since as I have said repeatedly; he's dead and has been for more than twenty years.
Some of us think the truth matters.
It's been noted that some people who go out of their way to defend vpw-and claim "he's been dead 20 years"
as an excuse are often the first people to criticize some denominations for actions taken centuries ago.
When one blames ONE for wrongs but not the OTHER- and claims the more RECENT one is too old
to matter- well, that's neither fair nor intellectually honest.
You have noted there were problems in your own denomination that you left years ago.
I won't question that. If there were problems, they should be-or should have been- addressed.
Ignoring them doesn't make them disappear.
Neither does ignoring evil actions by vpw make his own evil deeds disappear.
Try that one on the people who were his firsthand victims and see how far you get.
Of course, you can't do that with ALL his victims- some people died as a result of his actions,
one way or another.
But hey, they died over 20 years ago, so why does it matter?
I don't think you really want to get the entire picture, just enough negatives to justify what you have already made up your mind to believe. The entire picture is not available. Since one of the main alleged participants is dead there will always be a missing piece in the picture.
That's your opinion.
My opinion?
I don't think YOU really want to get the entire picture, just enough pretext to fashion an excuse to rationalize away
the accounts of the victims, and the complete picture that emerges when EVERYONE's testimony has been taken
into account, pro-, con-, and neutral.
Saying the picture is incomplete because vpw can't be questioned is silly.
We know what he'd say. He'd deny everything all the way down the line,
and switch lies when one lie is caught.
After all, that's what he always did.
For example, vpw made up an imaginary blizzard that supposedly kept him from leaving a hotel where
a conference was held, which led him to meet JE Stiles, whom he claim God told to show up
at the convention just to minister to ONE MAN (suggesting it was vpw.)
Naturally, since Stiles is dead, we can't ask him if God told him that.
Anyway, this blizzard dressed up his story and made it miraculous.
According to him, it blanketed the city,
and all planes, busses and trains were STOPPED.
Someone did some checking.
They found the precise dates of the conference.
There wasn't even a flake of snow falling from the sky when vpw claimed there was
a blizzard. And the city wasn't hit with anything shutting the city down at all that month.
So, they went to vpw and asked him about it, citing what they found.
Without any uncertainty or surprise,
without the natural response of
"You must have the wrong dates-I was THERE and there was SNOW and SNOW!",
he immediately replied that it must have been an angel that got on the phone
and lied to him, telling him there were no vehicles leaving town, and this was the
first time,
and that a blizzard was clearly visible all outside the hotel,
which apparently was a miraculous mirage.
vpw never had a twinge of conscience lying about little things, or big things.
We know EXACTLY what vpw would say. He'd deny everything categorically,
and claim everyone else was delusional, lying, or both.
Any decent investigator of any type could tell you that finding the truth of a matter
is independent of what any one person CLAIMS is the truth.
Look to the bulk of the eyewitnesses. Look to the physical evidence.
Look for the complete picture they paint.
And look over the exceptions, and figure out why they contradict-
whether by error, lie, or interpretational misunderstanding.
If your conscience insists that inability to question vpw is enough of a reason to suppose
that hundreds of strangers all came forth and said the same thing, that even INSIDERS
confessed knowing or participating,
that twi's response to a paper saying "adultery is wrong"
is to fire the man who wrote it,
ostracize him,
and to claim that HE is possessed
and anyone who reads his PAPER will GET possessed,
which, BTW, is vpw's old modus operandi when silencing someone,
and to suppose that ALL of them got together and fabricate a lie with complete strangers,
well, I leave that to your conscience.
For the vast majority of people-
especially those who aren't battling some idyllic shangri-la image of vpw, hq and twi in general-
it is NOT difficult to see that the hundreds of people told the truth,
Well, let's take a good look at the Bible then and see who lived a less than exemplary life. Adam committed the first sin, he should be gone. Cain committed the first murder-out. Moses killed someone-out. Saul was a devil worshipper and attempted murderer-out. David was an adulterer and murderer-there go big chunks of Kings and Chronicles, all of Psalms etc. Solomon was a bigamist- there goes Proverbs and Song of Solomon. Moving on to the New Testament, Peter denied Christ several times-he's gone. Judas Iscariot- well how low can you go? The apostle Paul murdered believers- there goes most of the book of Acts, the epistles (church and otherwise). Therefore we should be humble enough to concede that nothing they wrote is of any value and we should start over from scratch and rewrite the Bible from our independent (and no doubt pure) revelation. Good luck, send me a copy when you're done.
I think the simple fact that the Bible does mention the sins and foibles of specific people speaks volumes about God’s concern for moral uprightness – that His purposes be carried out honestly, through righteous means – and that the WHOLE story be told – as Word Wolf put it [see below]…The problem with the TWI that I experienced was that they were far from humble to admit to any moral depravity – but through their “pure revelation” [arrogance in the original Grease Text] dared to re-interpret a lot of the Bible to suit their aforementioned moral depravity!
...Johniam's response has been to try to get those other experiences silenced, and
excuse vpw and others for committing evil acts, to assuage the guilt they incurred
when committing crimes and evil acts against the brethren, for whom Christ died.
That's different from my response. I prefer the whole story be told.
I can face having had good experiences in twi while simultaneously acknowledging
that vpw was a dishonest rapist who constructed his image in great detail to inculcate
respect, reverence and obedience,
and used that to enjoy privilege, feed vices, and rape women,
and constructed a framework that allowed him to get away with raping women.
Does all that invalidate my experiences? It does not.
The many evils he performed don't erase what good I received.
However, the good I received does not affect the evil that others received,
and in some cases was-and is- used as a cloak to hide or excuse that evil.
It's something to consider-
for most of us.
It's something to remember-
for most of us.
It's something to be ashamed of-
for the few of us who performed those actions, facilitating rapes.
I don't think you really want to get the entire picture, just enough negatives to justify what you have already made up your mind to believe. The entire picture is not available. Since one of the main alleged participants is dead there will always be a missing piece in the picture.
Jean - I don't get your reasoning here at all. I'm sorry but this logic is faulty. Hey, Hitler is dead - so we can no longer visit the attrocities he committed?
No, I'm not equating the two men. I am saying that when you have a puzzle and a bunch of pieces, the hole they leave indicates what the missing piece looks like. This is one way I was taught to study the Bible - you take the information you have and you allow it to point the the information you are looking for.
This seems to be what I would call Inductive reasoning - theory, tentative hypothesis, pattern, observation. There certainly were patterns observed.
Ask yourself this : You say that you didn't observe any sexual misconduct personally and you have mixed reports by others. The best "nay" you've gotten is, "Well, if it happened I didn't see it." You have no firm denial. Then there are lots of people that have posted about their personal experiences. I'm no genius but it seems to me that you are not looking at enough of the picture if the only pieces you are willing to consider are your personal experiences and a handful of people that say " I didn't see nuthin'." (Okay - that was sarcastic - sorry) It seems to me that while you say that Rascal is erring by only looking at the negatives, that you are erring by not considering them. (BTW it would be only one side of the story if there were only one, or at the most a handful of woman reporting this, but there are hundreds if not thousands of women who were affected by this doctrine and it came from VPW. I'd say he practiced what he preached.)
I'm trying to look at this objectively - and I really have no reason to choose sides. But if you're going to argue that the whole picture be looked at - then you have to play by the same rules.....
Now- this is a separate argument from whether or not the doctrine was sound. I've proposed that there must have been enough error for this kind of behaviour to flourish.
I feel like somewhat of an outsider posting here because I left so long ago that I don't feel any bitterness or need to defend/condemn TWI. When I first came here, I spent a lot of time looking at the vast volume of factual information that is right here to find.( if one is inclined to do so.) To be honest, I felt more of a sense of relief than anything else. I was relieved because, finally, I could stop feeling guilty that things that happened or,for that matter, didn't happen after I left TWI had nothing to do with God being displeased with me for forsaking "the household".(I forsook a CULT!)
As I see it, the cruxt of this discussion is not whether God is good or to cite anecdotal incidents, but to reach inside ourselves and question whether or not we can come to grips with the possibility that we were duped( not by God, but by an organization) and accept that, although most of us reaped benefits to one degree or another, it came at a price that was beyond reason. "Does TWI need to be good?" Well, that all depends on whether one chooses to rationalize their involvement or face the facts head-on.
My mom taught a twig for a long time. She never pushed Greek words or the latest "research". Instead, she focused on Gods' unconditional love, something she taught us kids long before any of us even heard of TWI. When word came down from HQ that she would have to disconnect her twig from TWI because the ABS was not in line with the corporate standard,(not the "official" reason given) it didn't anger people, it made them feel guilty and hurt that they couldn't measure up to the standards that were set before them that "surely had been Divinely inspired".(to be read with a touch of sarcasm.)
If it make you feel better to hold onto the idea that the ends justified the means, then be my guest. Just don't bury your head in the sand and pretend this is all about people feeling bitter or resentful because it's not. It's about coming to an awareness of what really happened. Some of it was good, some of it was bad. Just be honest with yourself and try to seperate the one from the other.
Jean - I don't get your reasoning here at all. I'm sorry but this logic is faulty. Hey, Hitler is dead - so we can no longer visit the attrocities he committed?
No, I'm not equating the two men. I am saying that when you have a puzzle and a bunch of pieces, the hole they leave indicates what the missing piece looks like. This is one way I was taught to study the Bible - you take the information you have and you allow it to point the the information you are looking for.
This seems to be what I would call Inductive reasoning - theory, tentative hypothesis, pattern, observation. There certainly were patterns observed.
Ask yourself this : You say that you didn't observe any sexual misconduct personally and you have mixed reports by others. The best "nay" you've gotten is, "Well, if it happened I didn't see it." You have no firm denial. Then there are lots of people that have posted about their personal experiences. I'm no genius but it seems to me that you are not looking at enough of the picture if the only pieces you are willing to consider are your personal experiences and a handful of people that say " I didn't see nuthin'." (Okay - that was sarcastic - sorry) It seems to me that while you say that Rascal is erring by only looking at the negatives, that you are erring by not considering them. (BTW it would be only one side of the story if there were only one, or at the most a handful of woman reporting this, but there are hundreds if not thousands of women who were affected by this doctrine and it came from VPW. I'd say he practiced what he preached.)
I'm trying to look at this objectively - and I really have no reason to choose sides. But if you're going to argue that the whole picture be looked at - then you have to play by the same rules.....
Now- this is a separate argument from whether or not the doctrine was sound. I've proposed that there must have been enough error for this kind of behaviour to flourish.
I have a variety of responses; it wasn't going on, it was going on but VPW didn't know about it, it was going on and he knew about it but wasn't a part of it, it was going on and he might have been a part of it, etc. etc etc. MY personal experience is that in the sexual area I was never treated with any thing less than complete respect at all times. During the training for my WOW year, it was emphasized repeatedly "This is not a time for sexual olympics. Gentlemen keep it in your pants, ladies keep your pants on", and where I was, that was adhered to, and that was in 1986.
And you're right, this is a separate argument from whether the doctrine was sound. Once again I'm going to say that I received everything I said I was looking for when I signed the green card, and I still have those benefits today, a relationship with God, peace in the home, etc. etc. and I am not going to throw those things away no matter what twi turned into, and I am not going to feel guilty about having them either. What I was taught in twi was far greater than I was ever taught in any church incorruptible seed, a hope that didn't include a God with a baseball bat, speaking in tongues, how to pray effectively and the list goes on.
Waysider, you're right, some of it was good, and some of it was bad. Towards the end a great deal of it was bad, but I don't want to see the good things tossed away or called worthless because of the bad.
But - were there indescrepencies in doctrine that lead to vile offensive practices? Yes!
Perhaps now comes the hardest question of all:
Can I live with the fact that each person will deal with the wrong doctrine and wrong practices differently? I'm prone to answer, "Yes!"
Isn't it time to "agree to disagree" and move on?
There is a great deal of wisdom in what you say here.
Does all of what we learned need to be correct?
No, but I choose to hang on to a great deal that was good in the early days.
Do all the leaders need to have been perfect?
No, that is what Jesus Christ died for.
There were weaknesses in men that lead to vile offensive practices.
To the last question, I'm prone to answer "Yes!" also. Just don't try to jam your version of what happened down my throat. I still believe there is room for doubt. As you say, there were discrepancies in what was taught.
Isn't it time to "agree to disagee" and move on? Very possibly, I doubt that I am going to be able to change your mind, And you are definitely not going to be able to change mine.
As for the original intent of this thread...I don't NEED twi to be good; to me, it IS good, well...WAS. The first post and title of this thread presumes that nobody can just like twi without having a desperate "need" they're in bondage to. I disagree. I don't need fruits and vegetables to be good, I just LIKE them. So I eat them. (shrug)
quote: “no matter who vpw was, 100 years from now no one will care or know his name.
But every one will know who Jesus Christ is.”
That's probably true. He's be a footnote at least as part of the "surge of religious cults in the late 20th century" or whatever they spin it as. But that doesn't mean he won't have had impact. During the 70s and 80s there was a group of believers in the Grand Rapids, MI area who seemed to always be at odds with twi leaders and were not esteemed very highly. Even before the POP several of them went to a church. Well, 20 yrs later they dominate that church so I hear and JC is not God is not taboo in that church. Plus all the spinoffs now outnumber TWI and are doing well. I personally think he's had one hell of an impact on Christianity. He hasn't been the only one, but what PFAL taught was taboo to many churches in say, 1970. Not so anymore.
quote: I do believe God is big enough to accomplish things in peoples’ lives in spite
of faulty doctrine, and if good happens it is a result of God and not doctrine. And if
the doctrine is correct, well fine. Regardless God supplies the good.
That's like those pharisees in John 9 telling the man who was born blind "give God the praise for we know this man (Jesus) is a sinner". If VP did something good, then remember to give God the glory, but if VP did something bad, don't blame it on the devil, it's all VP. Can't have it both ways.
Full circle, thanks for sharing your pieces of the puzzle. Your account dovetails in with what others have shared of their experiences.
Bolshevik, I agree about the doctrine sucking the joy out of life. It was only in starting from scratch did I start seeing the hand of God again. Some of the stuff I retained as of value, most was discarded as I learned the greater law of love.
I am not saying our experiences weren`t enjoyable, or that we didn`t learn something of merit...we did, I am not denying that. But then again....neither do the surviving davidians or temples gate folks...heck there are still folks following the stargate (I think was their names) even after the comet went by and their fellow cult members suicided. Everyone seems to have excuses why the death or theft was ok. (I don`t think any of them had the legacy of debauchery that ours did)
Everyone is still very protective of the group that they invested so much time and heart into. People seem to need to make it some how ok...they are passionate in their defense of their lifes choices...whether it makes sense in hind sight or not....
Anybody that thinks otherwise is some how ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle it...etc
I really don`t think we have anything on these guys as far as being spiritual and right.
I think that in honestly being able to understand what was right and what was wrong, is the only way to begin healing from some of the more destructive thought processes.
Anyone who thanks people for sharing when their experiences "dovetail" with what other people have shared of their experiences, and ignores my post that points out that I was never treated with anything less than complete respect in the sexual area because it doesn't, is actively looking for only one side of the story in my book. What if the whole truth turns out to be that if it happened, it was a great deal less prevalent than some of us want to think. What if the whole truth is that the decent God-loving folks far out numbered the few perverts (or alleged perverts). BTW I've heard from the people who concede that the sexual abuse happened, that the argument about being somehow ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated was what they used to justify their actions.
Edited to say....Another spot, I think that you nailed it right on the head. ...your last post basically covered exactly what I was struggling to articulate.
God worked in SPITE of the faulty leader ... in SPITE of the faulty doctrines...I thank God for loving and working with us in spite of our stupidity.
I won`t give those men or their evil practise my gratitude for what God did in spite of them.
Anyone who thanks people for sharing when their experiences "dovetail" with what other people have shared of their experiences, and ignores my post that points out that I was never treated with anything less than complete respect in the sexual area because it doesn't, is actively looking for only one side of the story in my book. What if the whole truth turns out to be that if it happened, it was a great deal less prevalent than some of us want to think. What if the whole truth is that the decent God-loving folks far out numbered the few perverts (or alleged perverts). BTW I've heard from the people who concede that the sexual abuse happened, that the argument about being somehow ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated was what they used to justify their actions.
One sexually abused person would have been too much. It didn't need to be rampant for it to become any more evil than it already was.
But you see, it was rampant. It was a taught doctrine, belief and lifestyle to those of the clergy, to those deemed worthy to fit into the club. I know because I was handed the line that VP shared with these men that it was okay for them to have women to service their needs when they were out on the road, even if they were married. I was courted by same said clergy and I let it be known that I wasn't playing. Since I did not resembled Frankenstein in the remotest way some twenty to twenty five years ago, it was not the first time I was hit on.
You can believe that or not. I don't really care because what anyone believes OR refuses to believe because it does not in any way shape or form change REALITY of what happened to countless of other females in TWI. People can call others who attest to this being a problem all sorts of names and accuse them of being bitter and negative and all that crap. It does not change reality.
Reality should be for a God based organization that one person being sexually abused should have had everyone up in arms and to make sure it was nipped in the bud so it didn't happen again. But then we come from a ministry that said things or promoted works that said the Holocaust never happened or at least it was not three million Jews murdered.
Excuse me???????? Gassing ONE human being or sticking ONE human being in their ovens was TOO TOO MUCH.
Hard hearted and seared consciences were prevalent in TWI and that is what Rascal is concerned about. What happened to me, to us that we need to know about so that we can undo the damage done to us. There is a first step. This is a first indicator. Does our neurotic need to be always right, to have a corner stone on truth that no one else has, to be superior in our doctrine far outweigh our human compassion and mercy for other individuals???????????? Baby, I'd rather be dead wrong in doctrine and be dead right in being a good person, whose heart goes out to people in distress and be the helping hand that brings them back to light. Everything else is just bogus egotistical crap that does no one any good and does not make a difference anywhere except in our our little fellowship circle where we can pat everyone on the back and smile knowingly believing we are different than all the suckers out their in the world.
Yeah, those are some of the attitudes I got rid of when leaving TWI and examing what they taught me to be. What did TWI say about the poor? What was their attitude? What was their attitude about getting pregnant when it got it the way of ministry plans? What was TWI's attitude about non believing ( not believing in TWI doctrine) family and friends. What was TWI's attitude about charities? hmmmmmmmmm?
Show me how your ministry cares about family and friends and I will show you where you stand spiritually nevertheless how you treat others outside of your own group. It matters how good TWI was or wasn't because it has affected us in our way of viewing the rest of the world and how we treat people in our everyday lives and what we do and how we share. That is what this thread is about; undoing the wrong doctrine, the non caring non compassion side of TWI so that we change and we don't pass it onto our children.
Jesus Christ died for 'VP? So what. He also died for Hitler, Ted Bundy, and Jefferey Dahmer and every revoluntionary leader that commited genocide. What does that prove??? Religion cannot be used as a defense or an argument against a psychiatric pathology and those that prey on females (or males) and those that would use their position to exploit others fit into the category of a sexual predator. If anyone wants to find out about how that works, how it grows, how it needs to be treated and how it should be dealt with, needs to start reading up on the subject. It doesn't happen in a vacuum; too many people played dumb, went into denial and looked the other way for it to continue to grow and flourish as it did. You could find the answer in the Bible, but since that answer so contradicts what TWI says (once save always saved verses those that do those things will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't do IT ever) the truth was squelched when it was presented over twenty years ago as being devil doctrine. Was TWI good? Goodness does not call truth doctrine of devils.
I won't tell you the name of the very popular Rev. who thought and taught it was okay to use female believers to service the men of god. You all would .... a brick and you wouldn't believe me. Doesn't matter because I know what happened, and I know what I was told, and I know how often it happened. Freaking little horn dogs in a three piece suit waving their bibles around. I don't need to be believed because I believe me. And quite frankly, that is all that matters.
I won't respond to this thread again. The truth is out there. The bible can be used to justify any sin. And it surely gets used to justify what happened in TWI. I am done with that. Believe what you want, your choice.
Was it God's word taught? You decide. I decided no. I decided it was like the seed pickers up on Mars Hill, gleaning doctrines from here to there and putting them all together under one label. It was an oooooooooh woooooooooooow sensationalistic presentation of the Bible that was appealing to the masses of young adults who were coming out of the Flower Power age, down with the Man and down with the Establishment Age. Here they could believe in God and not do it the way their parents did.
A rebel with a Bible.
I think FullCircle has this right.
I got in the ministry in the early seventies, when a lot of the attitude started to change. I remember saying something like "Wierwille said..." and this still a very young lady in the fellowship who was one of these former flower power sex drugs and rock and roll type pipes up says "We call him DOCTOR Wierwille!!!" It seemed so eerie at the time, so out of character.
We were slowly being netted like a school of fish..
Oh, Rascal.. you quoted the thing about "in vain is the net layed in the sight of any bird.." in proverbs.
Bullinger had a different take, that the bird still goes into the trap, even if it sees the net layed in broad daylight. What was vain or useless, was the fact that the bird sees the trap layed. It just doesn't recognize it for what it is.
I think maybe we weren't quite as clever as we thought we were at the time..
The seed picker baited the trap with quite a few pretty seeds.
That is what this thread is about; undoing the wrong doctrine, the non caring non compassion side of TWI so that we change and we don't pass it onto our children.
Is it? Or is it about reopening old wounds that might be better left to heal, and recounting old horror stories under the guise of getting at the truth? Once again, VPW is DEAD and beyond the point of hurting anyone (unless we get a reenactment of Carrie). Last time I looked, none of us are involved with TWI any more so none of us are in any position to change any thing there except by prayer. I'm certainly not going to pass on to my children that that kind of behavior is acceptable, but I'm not sure that I'm going to pass onto them that your (general not specific) kind of behavior is either.
Another spot is absolutely correct - 100 years from now VPW will not matter at all. But for NOW what happened and who he was matters for some so that they can heal.
John and Jean - I have no desire to push anything down your throat or to convince you of anything. Please don't assume that of me. Would you at least consider that your experiences (or lack of negative experiences - especially in the area of sex ) do not negate the experiences of others?
I can only relate why this would be important to others from my own personal experience:
I was in a Branch were an ordained clergy male was the BC. Apparently I caught his eye. He made a lot of subtle comments under his breath, the type of things that he could brush off as a "misunderstanding" if I chose to confront him. This went on for about 2 years.
One night I was at a New Year's Eve party and I went into my friend's darkened kitchen to make a drink. I'm not going to go into great detail here but....
He quietly followed me in (I didn't realize he was there.) Then he came up behind me and whispered "How long has it been since you had a REAL man?" The next thing I knew, he had swung me around and was pushing himself against me as I was against the counter.
OK all this not for pity. Years later when I confronted him about this for very specific reasons that I will not go into here on these boards, he just looked at me and said,
"That didn't happen." (Big puppy dog eyes blinking real innocently here on his part.)
I informed him that I was there and it certainly did happen. If he didn't remember it the only excuse I would accept was that he was possessed and couldnt' remember. He said that was a possibility! He did concede to making the lude comments and to other inappropriate acts.
Ok all this to make a point. This was MY experience. (BTW I was able to push him off and I wasn't raped.) To have anyone tell me that it didn't happen is an insult. I was not drunk. I didn't imagine it. I was furious when he tried to tell me it didn't happen. He was playing the "its your word against mine" card. Anyone who hasn't been in this position cannot imagine how infuriating it is to be shown in just a few words that your feelings can be swept under a carpet.
MY experience was MILD compared to that of many others. I can relate to their anger and frustration though. These people need to voice what they can when they can. It does help them to know that they aren't alone in their experience. It certainly helps them to heal from any shame they may have. Its easy to feel isolation and shame when something like this happens to you. It can be very revealing to see that there was a pattern and you weren't just "asking for it."
I'm not accusing you of anything here. I'm simply asking for you to consider that just because your experiences in TWI were positive - that doesn't negate the things that others endured. I am not asking you to feel guilty for good things happening to you. I wouldn't wish the kind of negatives I witnessed and experienced on anyone.
And some people want to make sure that no one ever gets wounded like they did. There are still others in TWI that are reaping the "rewards" of this sick and perverted line of thinking.
Why is it that the most adament advocates of "let dead dogs stay buried under the fountain" or say "move on, move on, nothing to see here.."
are often those who perpeptuate vp's legacy?
I think the old codger EARNED his rotten reputation. Worked for it.. why not let him keep it?
Father, teacher, philanthropist (at times), bully, thief and plagiarist, adulterer, abuser and rapist of women, fleecer of God's flock..
The "troubling" thing here for some is that a person can observe a majority of this kind of character and behavior in many who studied under him.
I would like to see how c. g. would answer a few questions. Answer would probably be "never happened".
vp's legacy ENABLED loy and others to do many of the same acts. I'd like to see how loy would answer a few simple questions. Probably get nothing more intelligent than "I was just doing what da man told me to do.." "I didn't gas em. I was just following orders.."
It's like seeing history repeat itself with SOME of the offshoots. Picking seeds, finding something "flashy", "unique" to add to their "package". Trying to net in a new bunch of unwary people.
But it is kinda pitiful. As hard as they try to polish their gem, it is still as intriguing as a rock.
Is it? Or is it about reopening old wounds that might be better left to heal, and recounting old horror stories under the guise of getting at the truth? Once again, VPW is DEAD and beyond the point of hurting anyone (unless we get a reenactment of Carrie). Last time I looked, none of us are involved with TWI any more so none of us are in any position to change any thing there except by prayer. I'm certainly not going to pass on to my children that that kind of behavior is acceptable, but I'm not sure that I'm going to pass onto them that your (general not specific) kind of behavior is either.
When I was growing up, I stacked a lot of wood. All year round. Sometimes, you spend a good part of the day stacking a wall of wood only to realize it's unsteady. To fix this, you don't just keep stacking. You stop, tear everything down, and start over. Do it right.
TWI is what it is - and was what it was. We have our children study history in schools. We tell them, "Those who ignore the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them."
When the Holocaust is discussed is someone somewhere shouting, "Stop shoving your beliefs down my throat?" Perhaps. Should that stop anyone from discussing that period in history? No.
I've read the stories of Corrie Ten Boom and her Holocaust experiences. She actually met one of Nazi jailers who abused her and her sister. She prayed to God to help her forgive him. Does that mean that she forgot the past - NO.
I'm not going to start on the forgivness angle. That's another can of worms that has been bantered about many times. I will say that she needed to remember, and to tell her story so that she could move on. SHE chose when to open her wounds. There is strength in doing this. There is empowerment in doing this. It isn't a pity party - in fact, it's not a party at all.
Is it? Or is it about reopening old wounds that might be better left to heal, and recounting old horror stories under the guise of getting at the truth? Once again, VPW is DEAD and beyond the point of hurting anyone (unless we get a reenactment of Carrie).
I know people (not just from TWI) that have old wounds that are still open, some that have scabbed over but are not healing but festering instead, some that don't even know that they have been wounded and then those that have healed. Bottom line is all people are different. Some need to look at the weapons or their attackers to truely begin healing. Some don't.
You had a good experience in TWI. You received all that was promised on the green card. Excellent!!! Really! I would never even suggest that you forget that, throw it away or deny it. But didn't someone say on this thread that VP would be affecting Christianity for generations to come or something like that? Something about him making an impact with PFAL and some of what it taught now being accepted in the main stream? My point is that he is not beyond influencing people or hurting people. His doctrine and actions continue to hurt people everyday. The ministry he started still teaches that crap. Some people he hurt are still trying to recover (as attested to on this site everyday). The only thing he is beyond is reaping the joy of it all.
Everyone that has taken the time to post on this thread has made valid points. Some I agree with and some I don't but I will not be the person to tell them that they can't speak their mind. I will not be the person to tell them how to think or even try to influence how they think. We all have the right to speak, we all have the right to our own opinions.
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WordWolf
Some of us think the truth matters.
It's been noted that some people who go out of their way to defend vpw-and claim "he's been dead 20 years"
as an excuse are often the first people to criticize some denominations for actions taken centuries ago.
When one blames ONE for wrongs but not the OTHER- and claims the more RECENT one is too old
to matter- well, that's neither fair nor intellectually honest.
You have noted there were problems in your own denomination that you left years ago.
I won't question that. If there were problems, they should be-or should have been- addressed.
Ignoring them doesn't make them disappear.
Neither does ignoring evil actions by vpw make his own evil deeds disappear.
Try that one on the people who were his firsthand victims and see how far you get.
Of course, you can't do that with ALL his victims- some people died as a result of his actions,
one way or another.
But hey, they died over 20 years ago, so why does it matter?
All water under the bridge, right?
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WordWolf
That's your opinion.
My opinion?
I don't think YOU really want to get the entire picture, just enough pretext to fashion an excuse to rationalize away
the accounts of the victims, and the complete picture that emerges when EVERYONE's testimony has been taken
into account, pro-, con-, and neutral.
Saying the picture is incomplete because vpw can't be questioned is silly.
We know what he'd say. He'd deny everything all the way down the line,
and switch lies when one lie is caught.
After all, that's what he always did.
For example, vpw made up an imaginary blizzard that supposedly kept him from leaving a hotel where
a conference was held, which led him to meet JE Stiles, whom he claim God told to show up
at the convention just to minister to ONE MAN (suggesting it was vpw.)
Naturally, since Stiles is dead, we can't ask him if God told him that.
Anyway, this blizzard dressed up his story and made it miraculous.
According to him, it blanketed the city,
and all planes, busses and trains were STOPPED.
Someone did some checking.
They found the precise dates of the conference.
There wasn't even a flake of snow falling from the sky when vpw claimed there was
a blizzard. And the city wasn't hit with anything shutting the city down at all that month.
So, they went to vpw and asked him about it, citing what they found.
Without any uncertainty or surprise,
without the natural response of
"You must have the wrong dates-I was THERE and there was SNOW and SNOW!",
he immediately replied that it must have been an angel that got on the phone
and lied to him, telling him there were no vehicles leaving town, and this was the
first time,
and that a blizzard was clearly visible all outside the hotel,
which apparently was a miraculous mirage.
vpw never had a twinge of conscience lying about little things, or big things.
We know EXACTLY what vpw would say. He'd deny everything categorically,
and claim everyone else was delusional, lying, or both.
Any decent investigator of any type could tell you that finding the truth of a matter
is independent of what any one person CLAIMS is the truth.
Look to the bulk of the eyewitnesses. Look to the physical evidence.
Look for the complete picture they paint.
And look over the exceptions, and figure out why they contradict-
whether by error, lie, or interpretational misunderstanding.
If your conscience insists that inability to question vpw is enough of a reason to suppose
that hundreds of strangers all came forth and said the same thing, that even INSIDERS
confessed knowing or participating,
that twi's response to a paper saying "adultery is wrong"
is to fire the man who wrote it,
ostracize him,
and to claim that HE is possessed
and anyone who reads his PAPER will GET possessed,
which, BTW, is vpw's old modus operandi when silencing someone,
and to suppose that ALL of them got together and fabricate a lie with complete strangers,
well, I leave that to your conscience.
For the vast majority of people-
especially those who aren't battling some idyllic shangri-la image of vpw, hq and twi in general-
it is NOT difficult to see that the hundreds of people told the truth,
and the one guy did not.
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T-Bone
I think the simple fact that the Bible does mention the sins and foibles of specific people speaks volumes about God’s concern for moral uprightness – that His purposes be carried out honestly, through righteous means – and that the WHOLE story be told – as Word Wolf put it [see below]…The problem with the TWI that I experienced was that they were far from humble to admit to any moral depravity – but through their “pure revelation” [arrogance in the original Grease Text] dared to re-interpret a lot of the Bible to suit their aforementioned moral depravity!
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doojable
Jean - I don't get your reasoning here at all. I'm sorry but this logic is faulty. Hey, Hitler is dead - so we can no longer visit the attrocities he committed?
No, I'm not equating the two men. I am saying that when you have a puzzle and a bunch of pieces, the hole they leave indicates what the missing piece looks like. This is one way I was taught to study the Bible - you take the information you have and you allow it to point the the information you are looking for.
This seems to be what I would call Inductive reasoning - theory, tentative hypothesis, pattern, observation. There certainly were patterns observed.
Ask yourself this : You say that you didn't observe any sexual misconduct personally and you have mixed reports by others. The best "nay" you've gotten is, "Well, if it happened I didn't see it." You have no firm denial. Then there are lots of people that have posted about their personal experiences. I'm no genius but it seems to me that you are not looking at enough of the picture if the only pieces you are willing to consider are your personal experiences and a handful of people that say " I didn't see nuthin'." (Okay - that was sarcastic - sorry) It seems to me that while you say that Rascal is erring by only looking at the negatives, that you are erring by not considering them. (BTW it would be only one side of the story if there were only one, or at the most a handful of woman reporting this, but there are hundreds if not thousands of women who were affected by this doctrine and it came from VPW. I'd say he practiced what he preached.)
I'm trying to look at this objectively - and I really have no reason to choose sides. But if you're going to argue that the whole picture be looked at - then you have to play by the same rules.....
Now- this is a separate argument from whether or not the doctrine was sound. I've proposed that there must have been enough error for this kind of behaviour to flourish.
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waysider
I feel like somewhat of an outsider posting here because I left so long ago that I don't feel any bitterness or need to defend/condemn TWI. When I first came here, I spent a lot of time looking at the vast volume of factual information that is right here to find.( if one is inclined to do so.) To be honest, I felt more of a sense of relief than anything else. I was relieved because, finally, I could stop feeling guilty that things that happened or,for that matter, didn't happen after I left TWI had nothing to do with God being displeased with me for forsaking "the household".(I forsook a CULT!)
As I see it, the cruxt of this discussion is not whether God is good or to cite anecdotal incidents, but to reach inside ourselves and question whether or not we can come to grips with the possibility that we were duped( not by God, but by an organization) and accept that, although most of us reaped benefits to one degree or another, it came at a price that was beyond reason. "Does TWI need to be good?" Well, that all depends on whether one chooses to rationalize their involvement or face the facts head-on.
My mom taught a twig for a long time. She never pushed Greek words or the latest "research". Instead, she focused on Gods' unconditional love, something she taught us kids long before any of us even heard of TWI. When word came down from HQ that she would have to disconnect her twig from TWI because the ABS was not in line with the corporate standard,(not the "official" reason given) it didn't anger people, it made them feel guilty and hurt that they couldn't measure up to the standards that were set before them that "surely had been Divinely inspired".(to be read with a touch of sarcasm.)
If it make you feel better to hold onto the idea that the ends justified the means, then be my guest. Just don't bury your head in the sand and pretend this is all about people feeling bitter or resentful because it's not. It's about coming to an awareness of what really happened. Some of it was good, some of it was bad. Just be honest with yourself and try to seperate the one from the other.
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Jeaniam
I have a variety of responses; it wasn't going on, it was going on but VPW didn't know about it, it was going on and he knew about it but wasn't a part of it, it was going on and he might have been a part of it, etc. etc etc. MY personal experience is that in the sexual area I was never treated with any thing less than complete respect at all times. During the training for my WOW year, it was emphasized repeatedly "This is not a time for sexual olympics. Gentlemen keep it in your pants, ladies keep your pants on", and where I was, that was adhered to, and that was in 1986.
And you're right, this is a separate argument from whether the doctrine was sound. Once again I'm going to say that I received everything I said I was looking for when I signed the green card, and I still have those benefits today, a relationship with God, peace in the home, etc. etc. and I am not going to throw those things away no matter what twi turned into, and I am not going to feel guilty about having them either. What I was taught in twi was far greater than I was ever taught in any church incorruptible seed, a hope that didn't include a God with a baseball bat, speaking in tongues, how to pray effectively and the list goes on.
Waysider, you're right, some of it was good, and some of it was bad. Towards the end a great deal of it was bad, but I don't want to see the good things tossed away or called worthless because of the bad.
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Jeaniam
There is a great deal of wisdom in what you say here.
Does all of what we learned need to be correct?
No, but I choose to hang on to a great deal that was good in the early days.
Do all the leaders need to have been perfect?
No, that is what Jesus Christ died for.
There were weaknesses in men that lead to vile offensive practices.
To the last question, I'm prone to answer "Yes!" also. Just don't try to jam your version of what happened down my throat. I still believe there is room for doubt. As you say, there were discrepancies in what was taught.
Isn't it time to "agree to disagee" and move on? Very possibly, I doubt that I am going to be able to change your mind, And you are definitely not going to be able to change mine.
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johniam
quote: Johniam's response has been to try to get those other experiences silenced, and
excuse vpw and others for committing evil acts, to assuage the guilt they incurred
when committing crimes and evil acts against the brethren, for whom Christ died.
Silenced??? Not true. Anything's possible. I dispute that anyone's evil actions negate what Christ accomplished for us. Christ died for VP too.
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another spot
Rascal, the way to copy and paste is left click at the start of the text and hold it down.
Move your mouse downward until all the text is highlighted that you want.
Let go of your mouse. Then hold down the ctrl key and type “c”.
Now go to the place you want to paste it to and left click your mouse.
Hold down ctrl and type “v”. The text will appear.
As far as the original intent of the thread, I think probably some people
“need” twi doctrine to be good because they can’t deal with the years of
investment for nothing. Or worse than nothing. Others probably believe the
doctrine was good because they had good experiences. Hmmmm, well, I don’t
believe good experiences prove doctrine. Ahem, that’s what kept me there 20 some
years. I do believe God is big enough to accomplish things in peoples’ lives in spite
of faulty doctrine, and if good happens it is a result of God and not doctrine. And if
the doctrine is correct, well fine. Regardless God supplies the good.
Somewhere Paul said he didn't care how Christ was preached as long as he was.
Don't have time to look it up right now.
It is important for some to figure out who VPW really was as a necessary step in healing.
That’s why it matters even if he has been dead 20 years. I liked what my husband said
about it, “no matter who vpw was, 100 years from now no one will care or know his name.
But every one will know who Jesus Christ is.” Since we are adults, it is OK with me what
anyone thinks, because that's their choice. We can all think what we want. Ain't it great?
Finally, it is great to be out of twi and be able to think for myself and openly debate things.
And I even don't care if anyone agrees with me or not...Now that's recovery!
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johniam
As for the original intent of this thread...I don't NEED twi to be good; to me, it IS good, well...WAS. The first post and title of this thread presumes that nobody can just like twi without having a desperate "need" they're in bondage to. I disagree. I don't need fruits and vegetables to be good, I just LIKE them. So I eat them. (shrug)
quote: “no matter who vpw was, 100 years from now no one will care or know his name.
But every one will know who Jesus Christ is.”
That's probably true. He's be a footnote at least as part of the "surge of religious cults in the late 20th century" or whatever they spin it as. But that doesn't mean he won't have had impact. During the 70s and 80s there was a group of believers in the Grand Rapids, MI area who seemed to always be at odds with twi leaders and were not esteemed very highly. Even before the POP several of them went to a church. Well, 20 yrs later they dominate that church so I hear and JC is not God is not taboo in that church. Plus all the spinoffs now outnumber TWI and are doing well. I personally think he's had one hell of an impact on Christianity. He hasn't been the only one, but what PFAL taught was taboo to many churches in say, 1970. Not so anymore.
quote: I do believe God is big enough to accomplish things in peoples’ lives in spite
of faulty doctrine, and if good happens it is a result of God and not doctrine. And if
the doctrine is correct, well fine. Regardless God supplies the good.
That's like those pharisees in John 9 telling the man who was born blind "give God the praise for we know this man (Jesus) is a sinner". If VP did something good, then remember to give God the glory, but if VP did something bad, don't blame it on the devil, it's all VP. Can't have it both ways.
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Jeaniam
Anyone who thanks people for sharing when their experiences "dovetail" with what other people have shared of their experiences, and ignores my post that points out that I was never treated with anything less than complete respect in the sexual area because it doesn't, is actively looking for only one side of the story in my book. What if the whole truth turns out to be that if it happened, it was a great deal less prevalent than some of us want to think. What if the whole truth is that the decent God-loving folks far out numbered the few perverts (or alleged perverts). BTW I've heard from the people who concede that the sexual abuse happened, that the argument about being somehow ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated was what they used to justify their actions.
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rascal
Edited to say....Another spot, I think that you nailed it right on the head. ...your last post basically covered exactly what I was struggling to articulate.
God worked in SPITE of the faulty leader ... in SPITE of the faulty doctrines...I thank God for loving and working with us in spite of our stupidity.
I won`t give those men or their evil practise my gratitude for what God did in spite of them.
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rascal
another spot said...*I don`t think that good experiences prove good doctrine* THAT should be posted in the greasespot gems
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FullCircle
One sexually abused person would have been too much. It didn't need to be rampant for it to become any more evil than it already was.
But you see, it was rampant. It was a taught doctrine, belief and lifestyle to those of the clergy, to those deemed worthy to fit into the club. I know because I was handed the line that VP shared with these men that it was okay for them to have women to service their needs when they were out on the road, even if they were married. I was courted by same said clergy and I let it be known that I wasn't playing. Since I did not resembled Frankenstein in the remotest way some twenty to twenty five years ago, it was not the first time I was hit on.
You can believe that or not. I don't really care because what anyone believes OR refuses to believe because it does not in any way shape or form change REALITY of what happened to countless of other females in TWI. People can call others who attest to this being a problem all sorts of names and accuse them of being bitter and negative and all that crap. It does not change reality.
Reality should be for a God based organization that one person being sexually abused should have had everyone up in arms and to make sure it was nipped in the bud so it didn't happen again. But then we come from a ministry that said things or promoted works that said the Holocaust never happened or at least it was not three million Jews murdered.
Excuse me???????? Gassing ONE human being or sticking ONE human being in their ovens was TOO TOO MUCH.
Hard hearted and seared consciences were prevalent in TWI and that is what Rascal is concerned about. What happened to me, to us that we need to know about so that we can undo the damage done to us. There is a first step. This is a first indicator. Does our neurotic need to be always right, to have a corner stone on truth that no one else has, to be superior in our doctrine far outweigh our human compassion and mercy for other individuals???????????? Baby, I'd rather be dead wrong in doctrine and be dead right in being a good person, whose heart goes out to people in distress and be the helping hand that brings them back to light. Everything else is just bogus egotistical crap that does no one any good and does not make a difference anywhere except in our our little fellowship circle where we can pat everyone on the back and smile knowingly believing we are different than all the suckers out their in the world.
Yeah, those are some of the attitudes I got rid of when leaving TWI and examing what they taught me to be. What did TWI say about the poor? What was their attitude? What was their attitude about getting pregnant when it got it the way of ministry plans? What was TWI's attitude about non believing ( not believing in TWI doctrine) family and friends. What was TWI's attitude about charities? hmmmmmmmmm?
Show me how your ministry cares about family and friends and I will show you where you stand spiritually nevertheless how you treat others outside of your own group. It matters how good TWI was or wasn't because it has affected us in our way of viewing the rest of the world and how we treat people in our everyday lives and what we do and how we share. That is what this thread is about; undoing the wrong doctrine, the non caring non compassion side of TWI so that we change and we don't pass it onto our children.
Jesus Christ died for 'VP? So what. He also died for Hitler, Ted Bundy, and Jefferey Dahmer and every revoluntionary leader that commited genocide. What does that prove??? Religion cannot be used as a defense or an argument against a psychiatric pathology and those that prey on females (or males) and those that would use their position to exploit others fit into the category of a sexual predator. If anyone wants to find out about how that works, how it grows, how it needs to be treated and how it should be dealt with, needs to start reading up on the subject. It doesn't happen in a vacuum; too many people played dumb, went into denial and looked the other way for it to continue to grow and flourish as it did. You could find the answer in the Bible, but since that answer so contradicts what TWI says (once save always saved verses those that do those things will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't do IT ever) the truth was squelched when it was presented over twenty years ago as being devil doctrine. Was TWI good? Goodness does not call truth doctrine of devils.
I won't tell you the name of the very popular Rev. who thought and taught it was okay to use female believers to service the men of god. You all would .... a brick and you wouldn't believe me. Doesn't matter because I know what happened, and I know what I was told, and I know how often it happened. Freaking little horn dogs in a three piece suit waving their bibles around. I don't need to be believed because I believe me. And quite frankly, that is all that matters.
I won't respond to this thread again. The truth is out there. The bible can be used to justify any sin. And it surely gets used to justify what happened in TWI. I am done with that. Believe what you want, your choice.
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Ham
I think FullCircle has this right.
I got in the ministry in the early seventies, when a lot of the attitude started to change. I remember saying something like "Wierwille said..." and this still a very young lady in the fellowship who was one of these former flower power sex drugs and rock and roll type pipes up says "We call him DOCTOR Wierwille!!!" It seemed so eerie at the time, so out of character.
We were slowly being netted like a school of fish..
Oh, Rascal.. you quoted the thing about "in vain is the net layed in the sight of any bird.." in proverbs.
Bullinger had a different take, that the bird still goes into the trap, even if it sees the net layed in broad daylight. What was vain or useless, was the fact that the bird sees the trap layed. It just doesn't recognize it for what it is.
I think maybe we weren't quite as clever as we thought we were at the time..
The seed picker baited the trap with quite a few pretty seeds.
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Jeaniam
Is it? Or is it about reopening old wounds that might be better left to heal, and recounting old horror stories under the guise of getting at the truth? Once again, VPW is DEAD and beyond the point of hurting anyone (unless we get a reenactment of Carrie). Last time I looked, none of us are involved with TWI any more so none of us are in any position to change any thing there except by prayer. I'm certainly not going to pass on to my children that that kind of behavior is acceptable, but I'm not sure that I'm going to pass onto them that your (general not specific) kind of behavior is either.
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doojable
So....the conclusion of the matter?
Another spot is absolutely correct - 100 years from now VPW will not matter at all. But for NOW what happened and who he was matters for some so that they can heal.
John and Jean - I have no desire to push anything down your throat or to convince you of anything. Please don't assume that of me. Would you at least consider that your experiences (or lack of negative experiences - especially in the area of sex ) do not negate the experiences of others?
I can only relate why this would be important to others from my own personal experience:
I was in a Branch were an ordained clergy male was the BC. Apparently I caught his eye. He made a lot of subtle comments under his breath, the type of things that he could brush off as a "misunderstanding" if I chose to confront him. This went on for about 2 years.
One night I was at a New Year's Eve party and I went into my friend's darkened kitchen to make a drink. I'm not going to go into great detail here but....
He quietly followed me in (I didn't realize he was there.) Then he came up behind me and whispered "How long has it been since you had a REAL man?" The next thing I knew, he had swung me around and was pushing himself against me as I was against the counter.
OK all this not for pity. Years later when I confronted him about this for very specific reasons that I will not go into here on these boards, he just looked at me and said,
"That didn't happen." (Big puppy dog eyes blinking real innocently here on his part.)
I informed him that I was there and it certainly did happen. If he didn't remember it the only excuse I would accept was that he was possessed and couldnt' remember. He said that was a possibility! He did concede to making the lude comments and to other inappropriate acts.
Ok all this to make a point. This was MY experience. (BTW I was able to push him off and I wasn't raped.) To have anyone tell me that it didn't happen is an insult. I was not drunk. I didn't imagine it. I was furious when he tried to tell me it didn't happen. He was playing the "its your word against mine" card. Anyone who hasn't been in this position cannot imagine how infuriating it is to be shown in just a few words that your feelings can be swept under a carpet.
MY experience was MILD compared to that of many others. I can relate to their anger and frustration though. These people need to voice what they can when they can. It does help them to know that they aren't alone in their experience. It certainly helps them to heal from any shame they may have. Its easy to feel isolation and shame when something like this happens to you. It can be very revealing to see that there was a pattern and you weren't just "asking for it."
I'm not accusing you of anything here. I'm simply asking for you to consider that just because your experiences in TWI were positive - that doesn't negate the things that others endured. I am not asking you to feel guilty for good things happening to you. I wouldn't wish the kind of negatives I witnessed and experienced on anyone.
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Ham
Some wounds are so deep that they NEVER heal.
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doojable
And some people want to make sure that no one ever gets wounded like they did. There are still others in TWI that are reaping the "rewards" of this sick and perverted line of thinking.
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Ham
Just a thought.
Why is it that the most adament advocates of "let dead dogs stay buried under the fountain" or say "move on, move on, nothing to see here.."
are often those who perpeptuate vp's legacy?
I think the old codger EARNED his rotten reputation. Worked for it.. why not let him keep it?
Father, teacher, philanthropist (at times), bully, thief and plagiarist, adulterer, abuser and rapist of women, fleecer of God's flock..
The "troubling" thing here for some is that a person can observe a majority of this kind of character and behavior in many who studied under him.
I would like to see how c. g. would answer a few questions. Answer would probably be "never happened".
vp's legacy ENABLED loy and others to do many of the same acts. I'd like to see how loy would answer a few simple questions. Probably get nothing more intelligent than "I was just doing what da man told me to do.." "I didn't gas em. I was just following orders.."
It's like seeing history repeat itself with SOME of the offshoots. Picking seeds, finding something "flashy", "unique" to add to their "package". Trying to net in a new bunch of unwary people.
But it is kinda pitiful. As hard as they try to polish their gem, it is still as intriguing as a rock.
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Bolshevik
When I was growing up, I stacked a lot of wood. All year round. Sometimes, you spend a good part of the day stacking a wall of wood only to realize it's unsteady. To fix this, you don't just keep stacking. You stop, tear everything down, and start over. Do it right.
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doojable
Does TWI "need" to be good? NO
Does it "need" to be evil? NO
TWI is what it is - and was what it was. We have our children study history in schools. We tell them, "Those who ignore the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them."
When the Holocaust is discussed is someone somewhere shouting, "Stop shoving your beliefs down my throat?" Perhaps. Should that stop anyone from discussing that period in history? No.
I've read the stories of Corrie Ten Boom and her Holocaust experiences. She actually met one of Nazi jailers who abused her and her sister. She prayed to God to help her forgive him. Does that mean that she forgot the past - NO.
I'm not going to start on the forgivness angle. That's another can of worms that has been bantered about many times. I will say that she needed to remember, and to tell her story so that she could move on. SHE chose when to open her wounds. There is strength in doing this. There is empowerment in doing this. It isn't a pity party - in fact, it's not a party at all.
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Eyesopen
I know people (not just from TWI) that have old wounds that are still open, some that have scabbed over but are not healing but festering instead, some that don't even know that they have been wounded and then those that have healed. Bottom line is all people are different. Some need to look at the weapons or their attackers to truely begin healing. Some don't.
You had a good experience in TWI. You received all that was promised on the green card. Excellent!!! Really! I would never even suggest that you forget that, throw it away or deny it. But didn't someone say on this thread that VP would be affecting Christianity for generations to come or something like that? Something about him making an impact with PFAL and some of what it taught now being accepted in the main stream? My point is that he is not beyond influencing people or hurting people. His doctrine and actions continue to hurt people everyday. The ministry he started still teaches that crap. Some people he hurt are still trying to recover (as attested to on this site everyday). The only thing he is beyond is reaping the joy of it all.
Everyone that has taken the time to post on this thread has made valid points. Some I agree with and some I don't but I will not be the person to tell them that they can't speak their mind. I will not be the person to tell them how to think or even try to influence how they think. We all have the right to speak, we all have the right to our own opinions.
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Precisely, Bolshevik. For some, I think that's the best way to recover one's footing...especially where questionable foundations are concerned.
Unfortunately there are those who are not willing, for whatever reasons, to inspect, let alone rebuild, their "wood pile".
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