Awww I think that sometimes people just grouse and complain that *it`s not a level playing field*...because after coming into posession of the heretofor hidden facts concerning our ministry here....many change their previous mindsets and opinions.
It appears to irritate those who do not wish to change .... .
Guys (added clarification and spelled out for Johns understanding.....*guys* AS in reference to those in the minority opinion...not in reference to gender) ...there is a REASON why your opinion is in the minority here..... :) I think that somebody earlier called this a *coping* or *defense* mechanism.
quote: Guys ...there is a REASON why your opinion is in the minority here..... I think that somebody earlier called this a *coping* or *defense* mechanism.
Guys, consider yourselves clubbed into submission.
Say, John - I'm from NY so the term "guys" is the equivalent of "y'all" to me.
And if you think that statement is a "clubbing into submission" then I'd say you need to get a thicker skin.
It seems to me that it's somehow wrong to throw out insults and then cry. "Foul!" when a response comes back.
So - since Waysider is a guy and he agreed with me and Rascal - you'd consider him "clubbed?"
I'd say that speaks volumes. Is is weak to agree with a woman? Does it empower her more than she deserves? I don't believe that's what you were going for - so I'm going to chalk that one up to being a word misspoken.
I had always felt sorry for johniam's wife, but now I see it was totally unnecessary as he married a female version of himself. God help the rest of their family.
Thank you so much I nearly choked on my Pizza!
Eyesopen, it must be my high squeaky voice..
Between that and your absolutely adorable expression...I just want to pinch your cute little furry cheeks! :P Is that sexual harrassment? If it is how did I score?
awww come on John, it was funny...(note the smiley face after the sentence) I think it is even funnier though that you thought of it in terms of aggression....
I guess I need to clarify for you John, that *guys* was not in reference to gender...but rather those whom believed that their opinion on ministry matters placed them in the minority.
People all had their own experiences. In my opinion, it's not for me to say that what they claim did or didn't happen - unless I have specific knowlege. Otherwise, I need to be respectful and listen and allow the other person to speak about what happened to them. Then I can judge my response. Then I can form an opinion. Then I can learn from that person.
damn am i hear to learn ? see ya
i mean "here"
i just couldn't let that one go, even though i let almost all of them go
I had always felt sorry for johniam's wife, but now I see it was totally unnecessary as he married a female version of himself. God help the rest of their family.
No need. John is one of the best husbands and fathers you will ever meet.
That's beside the point. How John treats you isn't really what this thread is about. I'm happy he treats you well. I'm sure you both have your relationship worked out.
That's beside the point. How John treats you isn't really what this thread is about. I'm happy he treats you well. I'm sure you both have your relationship worked out.
Now - what about how others get treated?
Just responding to what someone else saw fit to bring up. And I am still not willing to elect myself God.
No one is asking you to elect yourself as God. But God did give you the ability to induce and deduce logically from a given set of facts.
This dance is getting old - don't you think? I'm not sure why you're so resistant to putting this together. With all the research tools you hold so near and dear, you should have figured this out long ago.
There is NO excuse to treat ones brothers and sisters in Christ badly...none whatso ever. Excuses for bad or wrong behavior is a byproduct of associtation with twi.
Jesus told us how to recognise one another...and the lable that we plaster on ourselves certainly was not part of the criteria he presented.
Hey Rascal, I am going to totally derail this thread again, sorry I have been getting some questions via email and thought that I would share the responses here, just in case others were wondering.
I absolutely believe that God helped me to be exactly where I needed to be. I still believe that God led most of us to TWI. Certainly not to be used or abused! But for some of the message that was taught, such as learning how to read the Bible, for most people that was a real eye opener. For so long the churches held the patent on Bible interpretation. But here comes some crazy hippy cult movement that teaches it to just anyone! Despite all the crap he really did help pop the bubble on the church monopoly kind of like Martin Luther did many years before. I'm not comparing them, although there are some pretty scary comparisons (not good ones either) but the sheer volume of people spouting the same thing did have an impact. Some of the interpretations were whacked but his admonition of "make it your own" was true. If he had done that perhaps none of the abuse would have happened. Perhaps he would have changed the wrong teachings, but he was not meek, he was proud. (among many other things)
Were it not for TWI I would not be where I am today. Good and Bad, I choose to focus on the good and learn from the bad. I know that God did not intend for me or anyone else to be used or abused in any way by anyone associated with TWI. It happened, perhaps it was avoidable perhaps it wasn't I just don't know. But I do know that there is more than one way to deal with pain and injury. You can let it keep hurting you or you can find a way to heal the wound and learn from it. I am still learning and I have found that some wounds aren't quite as healed as I had thought and I have found some wounds that I didn't know I had, but they will all heal.
Our experience, our cult was unique in so many ways. Only those that have been there can understand it. At my job sometimes we literally have hours to just talk. Sometimes the past comes up. When I try to explain TWI they just nod at me like some surreal bobble head. So I find myself editing, changing and skipping quite a bit. For instance the Corps becomes College or Seminary, WOW becomes Missionary or I just moved and the ROA becomes a camping trip with lots of friends. They won't understand so why try to explain?
When I posted my little adventure for everyone to read I was not looking for nor did I expect any sympathy, yet I received it. I just needed to be able to tell my story without being interrupted with questions, like what's WOW? (By the time you get done explaining it, they still don't understand and you couldn't care less about finishing the story.) Here I told the story, I didn't get interrupted, I didn't get mocked, accused, told I was possessed or mistaken, I didn't get blamed or shamed. You all listened with compassion, understanding and respect. Because of your actions and inactions I was able to work through it my own way and hence cleanse the wound so that it can now heal.
Here on this board we have a piece of a long lost household, separated by space as we are but brought together by chance or design here in cyberspace. We are still a family, just a bedraggled one. We didn't need no stinkin' Romans to persecute us heck no, we did that to ourselves! It's sad really. We have as individuals dragged our beaten and bloody carcasses to this site, not to rehash old pain, or to crucify others on a verbal cross but to share, to understand, to forgive others and ourselves so that we as individuals and as a family can heal and move forward. Then we can come together once again as a family and share with one another as we once did when we were still young and innocent.
So to you my brothers and sisters I give to you all my undying appreciation and love. I give a special thanks to Pawtucket for giving us a little cyberhouse where we may all gather once again. (This, by the way is far more comfortable than a soggy field in Ohio, or any other state for that matter.)
I throw out to you all an invitation to contact me anytime if you have any questions or concerns or just want to chat. (Please be aware that I am "old" in a manner of speaking so all of this fancy 'puter stuff confuses me sometimes, if you don't believe me just ask anyone that was in chat last night. I still don't know how to say goodnight without closing out of the internet) So don't expect me to understand any fancy shmancy terms.
Now that I am pulling myself out of my self imposed isolation perhaps I will try to see who is still alive in my fair little city.
Oh and never fear I have many more adventures lurking in my gray matter.
I think I derailed this thread rather neatly. Whatcha think Rascal? Still love me? :unsure:
No one is asking you to elect yourself as God. But God did give you the ability to induce and deduce logically from a given set of facts.
This dance is getting old - don't you think? I'm not sure why you're so resistant to putting this together. With all the research tools you hold so near and dear, you should have figured this out long ago.
I consider various possibilities when it comes to VPW's alleged sexual abuse. One of them IS that some of them are lying (No, I am not calling any one specific person a liar). One of them is that some of these women saw an opportunity to sleep their way to the top (and once again I am not talking about any one specific person). One of them is that some of these women read something into a situation that wasn't intended (and once again I am not talking about any specific person). There was one occasion where a married man occasionally made lewd remarks in my presence and directed to me, and I became disturbed and spoke to his wife, and his wife's best friend on the subject. The answer I was given was that the gentleman in question meant nothing whatsoever by his behavior, was not propositioning me, and had never been unfaithful to his wife. All of this I found out later to be true, and we are good friends to this day. All of this verbiage brings me once again to the conclusion that only One knows the whole truth about what went on all those years ago, and He isn't talking. And, no, I am not asking for anyone to repeat any horror strories in an effort to change my mind. It is my opinion that by this endless debate under the guise of this alleged "quest for the truth" we may very well be doing more harm than good when people reopen wounds that should be left to heal. On this point it might be better to agree to disagree and let it go at that. And, no, I do not worship VPW, and as I have pointed out somewhere else, I don't even think about him very much. When I pray, I don't think about him; when I SIT, I don't think about him; when I read the Bible, I don't think about him: I think about God. I have spent for more time thinking about him since I have begun spending time on Greasespot, than I had in years. For people who hate him as much as you do, you sure spend an awful lot of time talking about him.
Great post, Eyes Open. You make a number of excellent points. You go, girl!!!!
Talk about thought police...look who`s trying to point fingers about who talks about vpw...and determining how much is apropriate...lol
I suppose that since you weren`t coerced into sex with him...or recieved a drink from his driver and awkened in the mogs bed being raped by him, or on the recieving end of a lewd proposition..OR thrown off the wow field at 17 for posession when you failed to put out for him on the bus....then yeah..it would be very easy to conveniently dismiss him from your thoughts.
HOWEVER..if you were one of the above described persons who suffered grievously at this mans hands....IF perhaps you had a love one die as a result of adherance to his doctrine....you MIGHT have a smidge more personal investment in discussing what happened and why. The person responsible for the viscious and cruel betrayal might come to mind more often.
Jean, you are apparently unable to seperate the issues...lemmeee spell it out for you....while the guy was teaching you the glorious truths ...he was flat out destroying others behind the scenes.
My heart bleeds for our wounded brothers and sisters....some of these wounds heal in times...others never do....my outrage is directed at the men and women who perpetrated these crimes. Frankly I am at a loss to understand why anybody WOULDN`T be deeply offended and outraged at what occured.
You and John seem unable to empathise with the devistation that others endured....according to your posts...it doesn`t appear to matter because you two personally recieved some good....you are unwilling to allow even the most basic of comfort to be derived from sharing with others whom have endured similar pain and humiliation.....none of that is important because John and Jean want everybody to know that it wasn`t so bad and that most of these guys are probably liars anyway....
MAN and you guys repeatedly have call ME a sociopath. (sociopath meaning the world revolves around one`s self and everything is viewed within the context of how it affects one personally) No empathy or compassion.
It should sicken you to the depths of your being what happened to our brothers and sister in God`s name directly at these peoples hands...it should...but it doesn`t.
Eves...don`t be rediclous...of COURSE I still adore you...lol if you ever STOP contributing to these threads ...THEN I will hafta get mad...lol
That was very well spoken and with so much love....it is something that I truly agree with! I also agree with Rascal and her great Love and stand here!
Dear Jeaniam and Johniam, 1st of all, I do love you both even though I disagree with You both. IMHO,The vast majority are testifing and trying to heal and so much more ..not lying. The reasons I love you are many. One reason is that I have tried to walk in your shoes a little; and I look at your hearts on more than just this subject alone. Perhaps, I am wrong; but I also after reading this entire thread find it hard to see your love, empathy or compassion. That is not an accusation to hurt or accuse you.... I do not attack people and maybe I have learned to see that neither sidr is really attacking yhe other..I hope not. Just that in after what you have said your position is, I would be really reluctant to share my heart; fearing that you would not want to know it or would judge or disbelieve me relating to this subject. Is that leaving you all the room you want to grow and to learn? On this subject does anyone really have all the answers? Isn't that the right direction...a discussion not a war? Maybe I am just the dumbestest one on the planet, as that's my goal here to learn to grow to change and to trust and to heal; and to help not to hurt! At least could you look at hearts one by one please? There is never going to be one overall view that covers it all on any matter. I do think you're right when you say you think it is better just for you to agree to disagree. That I do see is out of Love. Although, I wish it was different...no one ever sees beyond what they do not choose to see! Operating without love how can anyone win a point? I Corintians 13: 1-13
I consider various possibilities when it comes to VPW's alleged sexual abuse. One of them IS that some of them are lying (No, I am not calling any one specific person a liar). One of them is that some of these women saw an opportunity to sleep their way to the top (and once again I am not talking about any one specific person). One of them is that some of these women read something into a situation that wasn't intended (and once again I am not talking about any specific person).
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rascal
Awww I think that sometimes people just grouse and complain that *it`s not a level playing field*...because after coming into posession of the heretofor hidden facts concerning our ministry here....many change their previous mindsets and opinions.
It appears to irritate those who do not wish to change .... .
Guys (added clarification and spelled out for Johns understanding.....*guys* AS in reference to those in the minority opinion...not in reference to gender) ...there is a REASON why your opinion is in the minority here..... :) I think that somebody earlier called this a *coping* or *defense* mechanism.
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waysider
Yeah!
(What Dooj and Rascal said.)
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johniam
quote: Guys ...there is a REASON why your opinion is in the minority here..... I think that somebody earlier called this a *coping* or *defense* mechanism.
Guys, consider yourselves clubbed into submission.
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doojable
Say, John - I'm from NY so the term "guys" is the equivalent of "y'all" to me.
And if you think that statement is a "clubbing into submission" then I'd say you need to get a thicker skin.
It seems to me that it's somehow wrong to throw out insults and then cry. "Foul!" when a response comes back.
So - since Waysider is a guy and he agreed with me and Rascal - you'd consider him "clubbed?"
I'd say that speaks volumes. Is is weak to agree with a woman? Does it empower her more than she deserves? I don't believe that's what you were going for - so I'm going to chalk that one up to being a word misspoken.
See....? I can play nice.
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Eyesopen
Thank you so much I nearly choked on my Pizza!
Between that and your absolutely adorable expression...I just want to pinch your cute little furry cheeks! :P Is that sexual harrassment? If it is how did I score?
sorry 
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rascal
awww come on John, it was funny...(note the smiley face after the sentence) I think it is even funnier though that you thought of it in terms of aggression....
I guess I need to clarify for you John, that *guys* was not in reference to gender...but rather those whom believed that their opinion on ministry matters placed them in the minority.
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excathedra
damn am i hear to learn ? see ya
i mean "here"
i just couldn't let that one go, even though i let almost all of them go
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Jeaniam
No need. John is one of the best husbands and fathers you will ever meet.
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rascal
Uuuh yeah...I um can really see that in the way he treats his sisters ... He is just a real cuddly sweet heart
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Jeaniam
Yes, actually he is.
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doojable
That's beside the point. How John treats you isn't really what this thread is about. I'm happy he treats you well. I'm sure you both have your relationship worked out.
Now - what about how others get treated?
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Jeaniam
Just responding to what someone else saw fit to bring up. And I am still not willing to elect myself God.
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doojable
No one is asking you to elect yourself as God. But God did give you the ability to induce and deduce logically from a given set of facts.
This dance is getting old - don't you think? I'm not sure why you're so resistant to putting this together. With all the research tools you hold so near and dear, you should have figured this out long ago.
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johniam
Rascal: So you were referring to whitedove's post and not mine? OK, I was mistaken.
Doojable: quote: And if you think that statement is a "clubbing into submission" then I'd say you need to get a thicker skin.
Someone once said, "Dead as a door stop...or is it nail? STOP NAILING ME!!!" I can relate.
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rascal
There is NO excuse to treat ones brothers and sisters in Christ badly...none whatso ever. Excuses for bad or wrong behavior is a byproduct of associtation with twi.
Jesus told us how to recognise one another...and the lable that we plaster on ourselves certainly was not part of the criteria he presented.
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Eyesopen
Hey Rascal, I am going to totally derail this thread again, sorry
I have been getting some questions via email and thought that I would share the responses here, just in case others were wondering.
I absolutely believe that God helped me to be exactly where I needed to be. I still believe that God led most of us to TWI. Certainly not to be used or abused! But for some of the message that was taught, such as learning how to read the Bible, for most people that was a real eye opener. For so long the churches held the patent on Bible interpretation. But here comes some crazy hippy cult movement that teaches it to just anyone! Despite all the crap he really did help pop the bubble on the church monopoly kind of like Martin Luther did many years before. I'm not comparing them, although there are some pretty scary comparisons (not good ones either) but the sheer volume of people spouting the same thing did have an impact. Some of the interpretations were whacked but his admonition of "make it your own" was true. If he had done that perhaps none of the abuse would have happened. Perhaps he would have changed the wrong teachings, but he was not meek, he was proud. (among many other things)
Were it not for TWI I would not be where I am today. Good and Bad, I choose to focus on the good and learn from the bad. I know that God did not intend for me or anyone else to be used or abused in any way by anyone associated with TWI. It happened, perhaps it was avoidable perhaps it wasn't I just don't know. But I do know that there is more than one way to deal with pain and injury. You can let it keep hurting you or you can find a way to heal the wound and learn from it. I am still learning and I have found that some wounds aren't quite as healed as I had thought and I have found some wounds that I didn't know I had, but they will all heal.
Our experience, our cult was unique in so many ways. Only those that have been there can understand it. At my job sometimes we literally have hours to just talk. Sometimes the past comes up. When I try to explain TWI they just nod at me like some surreal bobble head. So I find myself editing, changing and skipping quite a bit. For instance the Corps becomes College or Seminary, WOW becomes Missionary or I just moved and the ROA becomes a camping trip with lots of friends. They won't understand so why try to explain?
When I posted my little adventure for everyone to read I was not looking for nor did I expect any sympathy, yet I received it. I just needed to be able to tell my story without being interrupted with questions, like what's WOW? (By the time you get done explaining it, they still don't understand and you couldn't care less about finishing the story.) Here I told the story, I didn't get interrupted, I didn't get mocked, accused, told I was possessed or mistaken, I didn't get blamed or shamed. You all listened with compassion, understanding and respect. Because of your actions and inactions I was able to work through it my own way and hence cleanse the wound so that it can now heal.
Here on this board we have a piece of a long lost household, separated by space as we are but brought together by chance or design here in cyberspace. We are still a family, just a bedraggled one. We didn't need no stinkin' Romans to persecute us heck no, we did that to ourselves! It's sad really. We have as individuals dragged our beaten and bloody carcasses to this site, not to rehash old pain, or to crucify others on a verbal cross but to share, to understand, to forgive others and ourselves so that we as individuals and as a family can heal and move forward. Then we can come together once again as a family and share with one another as we once did when we were still young and innocent.
So to you my brothers and sisters I give to you all my undying appreciation and love. I give a special thanks to Pawtucket for giving us a little cyberhouse where we may all gather once again. (This, by the way is far more comfortable than a soggy field in Ohio, or any other state for that matter.)
I throw out to you all an invitation to contact me anytime if you have any questions or concerns or just want to chat. (Please be aware that I am "old" in a manner of speaking so all of this fancy 'puter stuff confuses me sometimes, if you don't believe me just ask anyone that was in chat last night. I still don't know how to say goodnight without closing out of the internet)
So don't expect me to understand any fancy shmancy terms.
Now that I am pulling myself out of my self imposed isolation perhaps I will try to see who is still alive in my fair little city.
Oh and never fear I have many more adventures lurking in my gray matter.
I think I derailed this thread rather neatly. Whatcha think Rascal? Still love me? :unsure:
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Jeaniam
I consider various possibilities when it comes to VPW's alleged sexual abuse. One of them IS that some of them are lying (No, I am not calling any one specific person a liar). One of them is that some of these women saw an opportunity to sleep their way to the top (and once again I am not talking about any one specific person). One of them is that some of these women read something into a situation that wasn't intended (and once again I am not talking about any specific person). There was one occasion where a married man occasionally made lewd remarks in my presence and directed to me, and I became disturbed and spoke to his wife, and his wife's best friend on the subject. The answer I was given was that the gentleman in question meant nothing whatsoever by his behavior, was not propositioning me, and had never been unfaithful to his wife. All of this I found out later to be true, and we are good friends to this day. All of this verbiage brings me once again to the conclusion that only One knows the whole truth about what went on all those years ago, and He isn't talking. And, no, I am not asking for anyone to repeat any horror strories in an effort to change my mind. It is my opinion that by this endless debate under the guise of this alleged "quest for the truth" we may very well be doing more harm than good when people reopen wounds that should be left to heal. On this point it might be better to agree to disagree and let it go at that. And, no, I do not worship VPW, and as I have pointed out somewhere else, I don't even think about him very much. When I pray, I don't think about him; when I SIT, I don't think about him; when I read the Bible, I don't think about him: I think about God. I have spent for more time thinking about him since I have begun spending time on Greasespot, than I had in years. For people who hate him as much as you do, you sure spend an awful lot of time talking about him.
Great post, Eyes Open. You make a number of excellent points. You go, girl!!!!
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rascal
Talk about thought police...look who`s trying to point fingers about who talks about vpw...and determining how much is apropriate...lol
I suppose that since you weren`t coerced into sex with him...or recieved a drink from his driver and awkened in the mogs bed being raped by him, or on the recieving end of a lewd proposition..OR thrown off the wow field at 17 for posession when you failed to put out for him on the bus....then yeah..it would be very easy to conveniently dismiss him from your thoughts.
HOWEVER..if you were one of the above described persons who suffered grievously at this mans hands....IF perhaps you had a love one die as a result of adherance to his doctrine....you MIGHT have a smidge more personal investment in discussing what happened and why. The person responsible for the viscious and cruel betrayal might come to mind more often.
Jean, you are apparently unable to seperate the issues...lemmeee spell it out for you....while the guy was teaching you the glorious truths ...he was flat out destroying others behind the scenes.
My heart bleeds for our wounded brothers and sisters....some of these wounds heal in times...others never do....my outrage is directed at the men and women who perpetrated these crimes. Frankly I am at a loss to understand why anybody WOULDN`T be deeply offended and outraged at what occured.
You and John seem unable to empathise with the devistation that others endured....according to your posts...it doesn`t appear to matter because you two personally recieved some good....you are unwilling to allow even the most basic of comfort to be derived from sharing with others whom have endured similar pain and humiliation.....none of that is important because John and Jean want everybody to know that it wasn`t so bad and that most of these guys are probably liars anyway....
MAN and you guys repeatedly have call ME a sociopath. (sociopath meaning the world revolves around one`s self and everything is viewed within the context of how it affects one personally) No empathy or compassion.
It should sicken you to the depths of your being what happened to our brothers and sister in God`s name directly at these peoples hands...it should...but it doesn`t.
Eves...don`t be rediclous...of COURSE I still adore you...lol if you ever STOP contributing to these threads ...THEN I will hafta get mad...lol
Thanks girl.
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Eyesopen
Thanks Jean! 'Preciate that.
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Eyesopen
Contributing? Hmmm that aint like ABS is it? Just kidding!
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rascal
Hey call it what you want....lol but I don`t do no steenkin blue forms no more...lol
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Eyesopen
Hehehehehehehehehe
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RainbowsGirl
Dear Eyes,
That was very well spoken and with so much love....it is something that I truly agree with! I also agree with Rascal and her great Love and stand here!
Dear Jeaniam and Johniam, 1st of all, I do love you both even though I disagree with You both. IMHO,The vast majority are testifing and trying to heal and so much more ..not lying. The reasons I love you are many. One reason is that I have tried to walk in your shoes a little; and I look at your hearts on more than just this subject alone. Perhaps, I am wrong; but I also after reading this entire thread find it hard to see your love, empathy or compassion. That is not an accusation to hurt or accuse you.... I do not attack people and maybe I have learned to see that neither sidr is really attacking yhe other..I hope not. Just that in after what you have said your position is, I would be really reluctant to share my heart; fearing that you would not want to know it or would judge or disbelieve me relating to this subject. Is that leaving you all the room you want to grow and to learn? On this subject does anyone really have all the answers? Isn't that the right direction...a discussion not a war? Maybe I am just the dumbestest one on the planet, as that's my goal here to learn to grow to change and to trust and to heal; and to help not to hurt! At least could you look at hearts one by one please? There is never going to be one overall view that covers it all on any matter. I do think you're right when you say you think it is better just for you to agree to disagree. That I do see is out of Love. Although, I wish it was different...no one ever sees beyond what they do not choose to see! Operating without love how can anyone win a point? I Corintians 13: 1-13
I Love You All, RG
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excathedra
alleged, no
various possibilities
you left out the worst
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