Absolutely, and I didn't mean to point a finger at you, or read something into your post that wasn't there. There are people who seem to want to lump all WC into one evil mass under a sweeping condemnation. Twi proved to be a human organization with a human organization's faults. That's life. While I have no desire to still be affiliated with them, not everything they taught me proved to be a broken cistern.
Maybe I'm just getting to old for all this sheeeet. I don't really care if every last thing I learned was wrong.. I made a choice all those years ago and I've made different choices since then. Some of them have been amazing - others I'm still unraveling.
I can only be responsible for my choices. I can try to make the next choice the right one. If a person in my life chooses to make wrong choices then I must choose whether or not they get to remain in my life.
Hopefully I've learned some from the past and I won't repeat the same mistakes over and over.
Maybe I'm just getting to old for all this sheeeet. I don't really care if every last thing I learned was wrong.. I made a choice all those years ago and I've made different choices since then. Some of them have been amazing - others I'm still unraveling.
I can only be responsible for my choices. I can try to make the next choice the right one. If a person in my life chooses to make wrong choices then I must choose whether or not they get to remain in my life.
Hopefully I've learned some from the past and I won't repeat the same mistakes over and over.
Maybe I'm just getting to old for all this sheeeet. I don't really care if every last thing I learned was wrong.. I made a choice all those years ago and I've made different choices since then. Some of them have been amazing - others I'm still unraveling.
I can only be responsible for my choices. I can try to make the next choice the right one. If a person in my life chooses to make wrong choices then I must choose whether or not they get to remain in my life.
Hopefully I've learned some from the past and I won't repeat the same mistakes over and over.
I don't really care if every last thing I learned was wrong.. I made a choice all those years ago and I've made different choices since then.
I guess that I really do care, because if every last thing I learned was wrong, it significantly impacts my decision making abilities and life today.
I think if we don`t get honest about what happened. If we traipse through life thinking we are right.....we aren`t very likely to get humble enough to learn where we are wrong and fix it.
For me, it is issue of honesty, clarity and continued personal growth.
I also think that it is very hard to go from viewing ourselves as *God`s spiritually elite* to being humble enough to admit that we were wrong and start again from scratch.
I was very thankful for the Corp I was around. It was great comfort when my sis of 30 was diagnosed with a milignant brain tumor, to know they were praying, when another did my mom's service, when I went into surgery for Cancer and they were in the waiting room praying I make it thru, and they were a phone call away..for the basic understanding of the bible...basicaly they were for the most part good people..
I guess that I really do care, because if every last thing I learned was wrong, it significantly impacts my decision making abilities and life today.
I think if we don`t get honest about what happened. If we traipse through life thinking we are right.....we aren`t very likely to get humble enough to learn where we are wrong and fix it.
For me, it is issue of honesty, clarity and continued personal growth.
I also think that it is very hard to go from viewing ourselves as *God`s spiritually elite* to being humble enough to admit that we were wrong and start again from scratch.
I guess that I really do care, because if every last thing I learned was wrong, it significantly impacts my decision making abilities and life today.
I think if we don`t get honest about what happened. If we traipse through life thinking we are right.....we aren`t very likely to get humble enough to learn where we are wrong and fix it.
For me, it is issue of honesty, clarity and continued personal growth.
I also think that it is very hard to go from viewing ourselves as *God`s spiritually elite* to being humble enough to admit that we were wrong and start again from scratch.
Rascal, I evaluated all that I learned years ago. I decided that no matter what I learned it was time for me to re-learn a lot of stuff regarding how I dealt with people and how I thought and how I just moved through life in general.
Maybe we are saying the same thing here but we got there by different means. I never took the approach that just because it was from TWI it was right. I just allowed myself to move away from ideas that were unstable. BUT I didn't do it on a "TWI taught this or that" kind of basis. I just started listening and observing people around me that I believed were better than me at Life.
I humbled myself in more ways than I can relate. I got honest. In my opinion there is not just one way to do that.
Before I'm completely "logged off" and censored, I just want to say to the the Highway girl, how well she put together this thread. It was never meant to single out individuals as stated in the opening. I appreciate so much hearing your responses as YOU have been under the twi knife. I admire your thoughts and heart in contributing to so much of what transpired! It's my turn to say, I'm not expressing myself so well! God Bless, Bump!
I think that we want to feel good about what we did because our motives were pure. (I don`t know if I count responding on this thread as I was app corpes 2 yrs before becoming corpes spouse)
I know that my motives were pure, I just don`t know if that made it right. I don`t think twi could have functioned without all of us, right down to Joe believer who did no more evil that bringing people to twig, and teacj=hing the bible in his house.
Our selfless love, our innocent enthusiasm was what lent an air of legitimacy to twi.
If people had seen what he was really like, what would be really expected of his dulous, they would have run far and fast.
As brutal as this sounds, I feel like every single person corpes or not, who ever abs`d or witnessed, or taught ... bears some of the responsibility.
Though we did what we did in the name of God....who was eventually served? What was the end result??
Our intentions? Most of us, very good.
We wanted to learn about God, and to serve God.
That's from the corps thru the wows, coordinators, Advanced Class grads, and everyone who ever took
"the class".
Did that change the nature of twi?
It changed the nature of our interactions on a PERSONAL level.
We tried to bless people. Often we succeeded.
We didn't affect twi as an organization.
(Otherwise, the originals, the hippies who were hijacked, would have transformed the entire group.
They succeeded on LOCAL levels, but were unable to affect the core of twi because vpw controlled
that with an iron grip.)
What about the corps?
I have to hand it to many Christians who entered the corps out of a desire to serve God,
who managed to retain all that after leaving the corps.
Many of them did.
That doesn't mean the corps was designed for that, no matter WHAT its press releases said.
What was it designed for?
First of all, it was designed to MAKE MONEY.
corps students were required to pay tuition,
and expenses were slashed to the bone.
They ate disgusting cheap food, and not enough of that, sometimes.
Emergency medical contingencies? VIRTUALLY NONEXISTENT.
People could have seizures or other attacks-and did, more than once.
And NO plans were set up to cover those, not even after the first time.
Stricken students weren't sent to a doctor, they were sent HOME.
(lcm admitted that in "vp and me.")
Living facilities? They were dormed in rooms smaller than any college student ever sees.
You can forget any thoughts of "creature comforts" in the corps.
So, money came in, and whenever a dollar was spent, vpw left fingerprints on it, so
tightly was it held. (Didn't let that stop him from getting a bunch of motorcycles and
cars, and an AIRPLANE, however. The financial priorities showed where his own
priorities were.)
Second, the education?
The University of Life had all the information the corps had.
And vpw himself complained that the corps had intended to STUDY when there
rather than perform manual labour.
(pg-234, "The Way Living in Love",
"...another young man who had the class in the army, came here that summer in 1969.
He stayed here two years. Like so many of these young people, he'd rather read than work.
He learned the Word, and he learned to work and study here."
Please note that he considered the army as insufficient in teaching manual labor.
At least to the amount he considered sufficient.
And he was complaining about corps who wanted to "read" instead of "work.")
The corps performed manual labour- a LOT of manual labour.
(As did Way Builders.) And they PAID FOR THE PRIVILEGE. And they set up the ROA
every year. Free. After travelling there on their own dime.
And didn't get thank-yous- vpw CRITICIZED them for not working MORE.
(Again, check "vp and me.")
One year of the corps was all the classes that twi ran. Only now you're on-grounds,
paying tuition and working on-grounds. You didn't need to go to the corps for that,
or even "the college division", which did that in a year.
Before those classes were completed, naturally, they weren't run. I don't know what
was covered then. Except lcm led people on a lot of runs, even as a student.
One year of the corps was a wow year. If you'd already gone wow, now you went
AGAIN, and AGAIN you paid for the privilege.
(wows paid $200 for the privilege of going wow, since twi didn't pay to locate them
nor set them up on-location.) corps, of course, still had tuition at this time.
So, the corps was a PROFIT-MAKING venture, where more money came in than was
spent.
The only formal instruction that was introduced to the corps, that was NOT the classes
that you don't need to go into the corps for, was the Dale Carnegie stuff.
The corps' formal instruction was in SALES.
When you're training people to SELL, what do you expect them to do?
Corps were expected to go places without question, learned to perform manual labour
on grounds, were occasionally lent out to farmers to pick their crops, and to hitchhike
and climb mountains. Did they achieve some benefit there? I imagine they learned
from each of those, but what's the primary purposes accomplished?
The manual labour and farming was quite beneficial to those managing the grounds
and the farms. The hitchhiking saved a LOT of money, although it meant some
students were hit by cars, and some were raped. vpw himself blew off complaints
about rape risks, and I have him ON TAPE blowing them off.
The climbing stuff was cheap, since nobody has to rent the mountain.
And I STILL say the methods of transport-
hitchhiking, and travel in the backs of truck-trailers-
was unconscionably dangerous, and I'm thankful to God MORE of them didn't die
than actually did die. (But, you know, even an old school bus would have cost
money.....)
========
Is it beneficial for God to have people to want to serve him and drop everything?
I would say so.
Did many good Christians exit this program? Yes, but I believe the program had
little to do with that-they were good Christians when they went in.
Was THIS an efficient vehicle to serve God?
We were TOLD it was so, we were SOLD it was so.
I do not believe it WAS so.
I believe it brought in money, gave vpw a base of people trained to obey him without
question, and a trained sales-force to push classes-
which brought in money from the required pfal entrance fee,
not to even mention the tithes brought in if the people stay.
In your second paragraph you say "we didn't affect twi as an organization". Could you clarify that? I thought wc had a major affect on twi as an organization? Other than that, what a terrible way to live! Hats off to those who came out...alive!
Under those conditions which you described, WordWolf, (which I know is true, I have heard it from so many, lack of sleep and food) it sounds more like the t.v. show "Survivor" rather than a godly biblical program. Thank goodness I backed out of going in.
Thank you Wolf for reminding me, (and probably some others) of just how much fun we had in res and on interum (Just loved the veggie crap at Emporia).
No really though, I hadn't thought of it as a money maker. But it certainly does appear that it did serve that purpose. Your other observations that it was basically a training program for salesmen sounds obsurd but I cannot deny the validity of the statement. We were taught some basic research skills, lots of repetition on the "classes" but come to think of it there really was a huge emphasis on "presentation" and sales, not only of the product, ie pfal but of yourself as a representative of the organization.
The idea that they SOLD us on was great, and could have worked I think had it been done correctly, but you're right...it WASN'T so.
In your second paragraph you say "we didn't affect twi as an organization". Could you clarify that? I thought wc had a major affect on twi as an organization! Other than that, what a terrible way to live! Hats off to those who came out...alive!
Best, Bump
Our intentions? Most of us, very good.
We wanted to learn about God, and to serve God.
That's from the corps thru the wows, coordinators, Advanced Class grads, and everyone who ever took
"the class".
Did that change the nature of twi?
It changed the nature of our interactions on a PERSONAL level.
We tried to bless people. Often we succeeded.
We didn't affect twi as an organization.
Otherwise, the originals, the hippies who were hijacked, would have transformed the entire group.
They succeeded on LOCAL levels, but were unable to affect the core of twi because vpw controlled
that with an iron grip.
Lots of people made a difference- LOCALLY.
This never produced a change in the organization,
because those holding the reins of power were dedicated to avoiding that kind of change.
They wanted-and want still- to centralize money, power, and privilege.
To the hands of a few-themselves.
That means little or no money is available to go to the local believers, the local Christians.
Ever see twi spend money on locals that aren't near hq?
Oh, there were a handful of exceptions, but they were extremely rare.
And they were either connected with locals twi wanted to impress,
or a desire to make a local headline.
Please note that-to this day-
LOTS of people have actually said
"I shall remain in twi, work hard,
and I shall make a difference and change its direction."
LOTS of people.
Many of them post here, or HAVE posted here.
Some of the kids IN twi NOW have said that.
It's NEVER worked.
It never worked when twi was young,
nor any time after that.
It will NEVER work.
They MEAN well, but they're spitting in the wind.
Those who run twi will take any measure necessary to
hold on to the power, and suppress any reforms.
Like they always have.
===================
BTW, the thread
"vp and me in wonderland" gives a look inside the way corps and vpw,
just as "the way: living in wonderland" gives a look into twi's earlier years.
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Jeaniam
Absolutely, and I didn't mean to point a finger at you, or read something into your post that wasn't there. There are people who seem to want to lump all WC into one evil mass under a sweeping condemnation. Twi proved to be a human organization with a human organization's faults. That's life. While I have no desire to still be affiliated with them, not everything they taught me proved to be a broken cistern.
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doojable
Maybe I'm just getting to old for all this sheeeet. I don't really care if every last thing I learned was wrong.. I made a choice all those years ago and I've made different choices since then. Some of them have been amazing - others I'm still unraveling.
I can only be responsible for my choices. I can try to make the next choice the right one. If a person in my life chooses to make wrong choices then I must choose whether or not they get to remain in my life.
Hopefully I've learned some from the past and I won't repeat the same mistakes over and over.
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TheHighWay
Well said, doojable!!
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Eyesopen
I second that, well said doojab!
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Jeaniam
And I will third it. Well said doojable!!!
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rascal
I guess that I really do care, because if every last thing I learned was wrong, it significantly impacts my decision making abilities and life today.
I think if we don`t get honest about what happened. If we traipse through life thinking we are right.....we aren`t very likely to get humble enough to learn where we are wrong and fix it.
For me, it is issue of honesty, clarity and continued personal growth.
I also think that it is very hard to go from viewing ourselves as *God`s spiritually elite* to being humble enough to admit that we were wrong and start again from scratch.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
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likeaneagle
I was very thankful for the Corp I was around. It was great comfort when my sis of 30 was diagnosed with a milignant brain tumor, to know they were praying, when another did my mom's service, when I went into surgery for Cancer and they were in the waiting room praying I make it thru, and they were a phone call away..for the basic understanding of the bible...basicaly they were for the most part good people..
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Dot Matrix
I feel you Rascal.
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coolchef
eagle
those were the corp with hearts and there were many of them
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rascal
I agree.
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doojable
Rascal, I evaluated all that I learned years ago. I decided that no matter what I learned it was time for me to re-learn a lot of stuff regarding how I dealt with people and how I thought and how I just moved through life in general.
Maybe we are saying the same thing here but we got there by different means. I never took the approach that just because it was from TWI it was right. I just allowed myself to move away from ideas that were unstable. BUT I didn't do it on a "TWI taught this or that" kind of basis. I just started listening and observing people around me that I believed were better than me at Life.
I humbled myself in more ways than I can relate. I got honest. In my opinion there is not just one way to do that.
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rascal
Agreed, Dooj.
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Bumpy
Before I'm completely "logged off" and censored, I just want to say to the the Highway girl, how well she put together this thread. It was never meant to single out individuals as stated in the opening. I appreciate so much hearing your responses as YOU have been under the twi knife. I admire your thoughts and heart in contributing to so much of what transpired! It's my turn to say, I'm not expressing myself so well! God Bless, Bump!
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excathedra
why would you ever be logged off and censored, bump ?
our cyber man of god of our day and time was not corps for godssake !!!!!
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
love ya bumpy
you too paw
you too anyone
have we learned anything for this thread ?
i don't know i didn't read it
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Weout1200
Just new to the thread.
I say NO!
The WayCorpse was to martindale what the SS was to Hitler; the means to achieving the end. His tools.
And as some of us can testify, many of them were very, very effecient
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coolchef
and i agree but
many of them were loving and caring people you can't take that away because there were {and there were} some major idiot brainwashed people
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excathedra
major idiot brainwashed people checking in to say hi
hi !
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Eyesopen
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Thanks! I don't care who you are that sh#t was funny!
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WordWolf
Our intentions? Most of us, very good.
We wanted to learn about God, and to serve God.
That's from the corps thru the wows, coordinators, Advanced Class grads, and everyone who ever took
"the class".
Did that change the nature of twi?
It changed the nature of our interactions on a PERSONAL level.
We tried to bless people. Often we succeeded.
We didn't affect twi as an organization.
(Otherwise, the originals, the hippies who were hijacked, would have transformed the entire group.
They succeeded on LOCAL levels, but were unable to affect the core of twi because vpw controlled
that with an iron grip.)
What about the corps?
I have to hand it to many Christians who entered the corps out of a desire to serve God,
who managed to retain all that after leaving the corps.
Many of them did.
That doesn't mean the corps was designed for that, no matter WHAT its press releases said.
What was it designed for?
First of all, it was designed to MAKE MONEY.
corps students were required to pay tuition,
and expenses were slashed to the bone.
They ate disgusting cheap food, and not enough of that, sometimes.
Emergency medical contingencies? VIRTUALLY NONEXISTENT.
People could have seizures or other attacks-and did, more than once.
And NO plans were set up to cover those, not even after the first time.
Stricken students weren't sent to a doctor, they were sent HOME.
(lcm admitted that in "vp and me.")
Living facilities? They were dormed in rooms smaller than any college student ever sees.
You can forget any thoughts of "creature comforts" in the corps.
So, money came in, and whenever a dollar was spent, vpw left fingerprints on it, so
tightly was it held. (Didn't let that stop him from getting a bunch of motorcycles and
cars, and an AIRPLANE, however. The financial priorities showed where his own
priorities were.)
Second, the education?
The University of Life had all the information the corps had.
And vpw himself complained that the corps had intended to STUDY when there
rather than perform manual labour.
(pg-234, "The Way Living in Love",
"...another young man who had the class in the army, came here that summer in 1969.
He stayed here two years. Like so many of these young people, he'd rather read than work.
He learned the Word, and he learned to work and study here."
Please note that he considered the army as insufficient in teaching manual labor.
At least to the amount he considered sufficient.
And he was complaining about corps who wanted to "read" instead of "work.")
The corps performed manual labour- a LOT of manual labour.
(As did Way Builders.) And they PAID FOR THE PRIVILEGE. And they set up the ROA
every year. Free. After travelling there on their own dime.
And didn't get thank-yous- vpw CRITICIZED them for not working MORE.
(Again, check "vp and me.")
One year of the corps was all the classes that twi ran. Only now you're on-grounds,
paying tuition and working on-grounds. You didn't need to go to the corps for that,
or even "the college division", which did that in a year.
Before those classes were completed, naturally, they weren't run. I don't know what
was covered then. Except lcm led people on a lot of runs, even as a student.
One year of the corps was a wow year. If you'd already gone wow, now you went
AGAIN, and AGAIN you paid for the privilege.
(wows paid $200 for the privilege of going wow, since twi didn't pay to locate them
nor set them up on-location.) corps, of course, still had tuition at this time.
So, the corps was a PROFIT-MAKING venture, where more money came in than was
spent.
The only formal instruction that was introduced to the corps, that was NOT the classes
that you don't need to go into the corps for, was the Dale Carnegie stuff.
The corps' formal instruction was in SALES.
When you're training people to SELL, what do you expect them to do?
Corps were expected to go places without question, learned to perform manual labour
on grounds, were occasionally lent out to farmers to pick their crops, and to hitchhike
and climb mountains. Did they achieve some benefit there? I imagine they learned
from each of those, but what's the primary purposes accomplished?
The manual labour and farming was quite beneficial to those managing the grounds
and the farms. The hitchhiking saved a LOT of money, although it meant some
students were hit by cars, and some were raped. vpw himself blew off complaints
about rape risks, and I have him ON TAPE blowing them off.
The climbing stuff was cheap, since nobody has to rent the mountain.
And I STILL say the methods of transport-
hitchhiking, and travel in the backs of truck-trailers-
was unconscionably dangerous, and I'm thankful to God MORE of them didn't die
than actually did die. (But, you know, even an old school bus would have cost
money.....)
========
Is it beneficial for God to have people to want to serve him and drop everything?
I would say so.
Did many good Christians exit this program? Yes, but I believe the program had
little to do with that-they were good Christians when they went in.
Was THIS an efficient vehicle to serve God?
We were TOLD it was so, we were SOLD it was so.
I do not believe it WAS so.
I believe it brought in money, gave vpw a base of people trained to obey him without
question, and a trained sales-force to push classes-
which brought in money from the required pfal entrance fee,
not to even mention the tithes brought in if the people stay.
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Bumpy
In your second paragraph you say "we didn't affect twi as an organization". Could you clarify that? I thought wc had a major affect on twi as an organization? Other than that, what a terrible way to live! Hats off to those who came out...alive!
Best, Bump
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FullCircle
Under those conditions which you described, WordWolf, (which I know is true, I have heard it from so many, lack of sleep and food) it sounds more like the t.v. show "Survivor" rather than a godly biblical program. Thank goodness I backed out of going in.
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likeaneagle
Me too Full circle--I backed out too..
Im use to challenging myself, but..I know I would of never made it now.
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Eyesopen
Thank you Wolf for reminding me, (and probably some others) of just how much fun we had in res and on interum (Just loved the veggie crap at Emporia).
No really though, I hadn't thought of it as a money maker. But it certainly does appear that it did serve that purpose. Your other observations that it was basically a training program for salesmen sounds obsurd but I cannot deny the validity of the statement. We were taught some basic research skills, lots of repetition on the "classes" but come to think of it there really was a huge emphasis on "presentation" and sales, not only of the product, ie pfal but of yourself as a representative of the organization.
The idea that they SOLD us on was great, and could have worked I think had it been done correctly, but you're right...it WASN'T so.
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WordWolf
Lots of people made a difference- LOCALLY.
This never produced a change in the organization,
because those holding the reins of power were dedicated to avoiding that kind of change.
They wanted-and want still- to centralize money, power, and privilege.
To the hands of a few-themselves.
That means little or no money is available to go to the local believers, the local Christians.
Ever see twi spend money on locals that aren't near hq?
Oh, there were a handful of exceptions, but they were extremely rare.
And they were either connected with locals twi wanted to impress,
or a desire to make a local headline.
Please note that-to this day-
LOTS of people have actually said
"I shall remain in twi, work hard,
and I shall make a difference and change its direction."
LOTS of people.
Many of them post here, or HAVE posted here.
Some of the kids IN twi NOW have said that.
It's NEVER worked.
It never worked when twi was young,
nor any time after that.
It will NEVER work.
They MEAN well, but they're spitting in the wind.
Those who run twi will take any measure necessary to
hold on to the power, and suppress any reforms.
Like they always have.
===================
BTW, the thread
"vp and me in wonderland" gives a look inside the way corps and vpw,
just as "the way: living in wonderland" gives a look into twi's earlier years.
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