While (not fellowshipping personally with CES - though I've supported their work),
I liked them better in the *old days*, when they focused on teachings,
rather than being a *church*, as they are now.
I see NO need to be a *church*.
They were doing just fine the way they were.
Yes I would have to agree. They had no problems back then. As soon as they become a "ministry", look at how little time passed before there were problems. They should have stayed the way they were.
rehashed, reboxed pfal.. why bother trying to sell it, to those who have bought it again, and again, and again.
I bought pfal at least.. six times.
foundational.. $85.00. intermediate, 35 (I think). Advanced, $550.00. WAP "repackage" of pfal- I forget how much.. it wasn't free. loy's "new and improved" advanced class.. I forget.. but it was in hundreds.. plus two "pfal" classes, repackaged from an offshoot.
Every time I hear "you gotta take this class.. it's the finest since Paul invented liver and onions.."
I think they are trying to sell an eskimo snow in the winter..
When considering Christian ministry, I don't think it's appropriate to compare it to "for profit" businesses...
Christian ministry is a service and labor of love that is a calling...not a calling to provide a paycheck...but a calling to minister in Christ's name. I would never even consider charging money for sharing my knowledge of Christianity. This is not a business that is designed to produce a profit...it's something that is done from the heart...for free.
Once sombody incorporates and "gives it a name" and raises a flag over their place of "business", it ceases to be a person to person communication and it becomes a business with expenses, overhead, etc...this is not what I am looking to be involved with...
if this is your "calling"...go for it...but it's not mine.
To me, it's like starting a business called "friendship incorporated"...I'll be your friend and I'll send you newsletters and tapes telling you what a good friend I am to you...but gosh, this costs me money...therefore, I have to get some money from you in order to cover my expenses...and by the way, because I do this full time, I don't have time to work a regular job...therefore, I need to be compensated in order to pay my rent and buy groceries...
No thanks...my friends don't charge me money for being my friend, my savior doesn't charge me money for being my Lord and God doesn't charge me money for being my God...If you want to charge me money for your "services"...fine...I'll consider you as I do any of my other bills, such as my electric bill, phone bill or rent...I'll pay you out of obligation for services rendered...
...but don't be surprised when I don't subscribe to your "business" and pay you nothing...you want to sell tapes and books and make a living out of it?...good for you...look elsewhere because I'm not buying stuff that God gives me for free...
I want nothing to do with the "God business"...been there, done that.
Mr. Hammeroni - yes at the soth pole "I think they are trying to sell an eskimo snow in the winter"
GrouchoMarxJr - me too "I would never even consider charging money for sharing my knowledge of Christianity" I agree "This is not a business that is designed to produce a profit...it's something that is done from the heart...for free." -- me too "I'm not buying stuff that God gives me for free..."
I want nothing to do with the "God business"...been there, done that.
I really have to agree with Groucho here.
What we are seeing is God's Grace, (which is free), peddled for profit. That's how the WAY operated and it's offshoots are no different, despite their claims. As Groucho said, "I want nothing to do with the 'God Business'...been there, done that."
I'm new here but was also victim of a religious cult. "Victim" because my parents got involved without first checking their history. Big mistake. Long story short, after years of listening to what the cult said, I actually read the Bible for myself. I saw that they actually fit the description of the Pharisees! I went to Christ, RENOUNCED the group's leader as the false prophet that he was and repented of following him. I tossed all their garbage books, tapes & videos too. That my friends, was my ticket to freedom because he who the Son sets free is free indeed!
"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 3:36)
My experience is that if you don't do that, you will most likely end up in another cult before long. You will also still be under the leader's deceiving spirit. Look at the founder's lifestyle. Jesus' words hold true, "A good tree can not produce bad fruit." The offshoots of these cults end up at the same destination because they are founded on some man's delusions rather than holding to Christ the head. Jesus said "If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) Immorality, temper tantrums, lying, drunkeness, egotism, etc. are all ROTTEN FRUITS and any "teacher" exhibiting such behavior should be avoided like the plague.
My mistake is that I followed a man instead of THE MAN God appointed. Never again. I can't tell you how my life has turned around. I now have my own ministry, not to gather disciples for myself but souls for Christ. I go out and preach to those in rehabilitation centers and hospitals. I'm also a musician and do Christian concerts. I have never been happier in my life!!!
I sleep soundly at night and look forward to intimate prayer time with the Father and His Son whereas before I found prayer tedious and difficult. Only God could do that in your heart. Most religious cults want to take the place of Christ as mediator so you depend on them for "enlightened teachings". Trust me. God's Word says in James 1:5 to ask HIM for wisdom which He gives freely to all without upbraiding and IT WILL be given to you. Do you believe all of God's promises?
I had to do something proactive. I could have joined an ex-cult member's group but what would be the point? I could keep looking back or I could strap myself to the plow and move ahead. That's just what Jesus said we would have to do. Don't keep looking behind because when you do that, you'll find that you are still in the same spot!
I've not only been there and done that but I've moved on to much greater things in the service of my Lord and King. I don't ask for money from people either. Paul and Barnabas knew they had a right to be supported by the saints but chose not to assert that privilege. Notice these for money preachers are always telling YOU to have faith in God to supply your needs so that you can abundantly give to THEM. How is it that they never apply this teaching to themselves? Another red flag folks. I can testify that I not only have enough money to meet my ministry expenses for travel, sound and musical equipment, etc. but I even have money left over to give to donate and support others! Again, only God can do that! I trust Him each day with my needs and am amazed at the people and provisions He sends to bless me without my having to ask for money.
So that's my 2 cents. I'm not goiong to stay on this board long but I'm praying for everyone here. However, at least TRY what I have said if you still can not find peace or move on. I know some people may not want to but there are some who do. Either way, I am still praying for everyone here.
I been on these boards a long time I saw some move on, new ones come as new ones are all ways coming and growth in my life and others things
Now I all so post on EX-JW boards I seem new boards build to help the righteous I seen people hearts changed for the good
Now I all so go on non non-cult boards christian and non christian boards were I share my heart with all that will listen and one could say that part of my ministry to post on board after board
I have been banned from more boards than I can count from sharing my heart
thanks for blessing me
yes some talk about the same old things but I see that as a staged and who am I to judge how long we live in any stage
I am here to love no matter what and show the world it about love not worldly things
the computer as a tool to reach the broken hearted and with the Way cult there comes a new set of people needing help every month
this message board is just a place to share what God has taught me with others
most of my treads are in the doctrine area go there write what God has taught you any time many will read
I was in the way cult from 1981 to about 1995 and it took me until about 2003 to begin healing the way destroyed my life but no man made church will ever do that again
yes bless everybody
if it takes me a year to help one person I am thankful
I been on these boards a long time I saw some move on, new ones come as new ones are all ways coming and growth in my life and others things
Now I all so post on EX-JW boards I seem new boards build to help the righteous I seen people hearts changed for the good
Now I all so go on non non-cult boards christian and non christian boards were I share my heart with all that will listen and one could say that part of my ministry to post on board after board
I have been banned from more boards than I can count from sharing my heart
thanks for blessing me
yes some talk about the same old things but I see that as a staged and who am I to judge how long we live in any stage
I am here to love no matter what and show the world it about love not worldly things
the computer as a tool to reach the broken hearted and with the Way cult there comes a new set of people needing help every month
this message board is just a place to share what God has taught me with others
most of my treads are in the doctrine area go there write what God has taught you any time many will read
I was in the way cult from 1981 to about 1995 and it took me until about 2003 to begin healing the way destroyed my life but no man made church will ever do that again
yes bless everybody
if it takes me a year to help one person I am thankful
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Roy, May God bless you and then bless you again!!! I went back and read some of your posts on the
other pages. What came through was the loving compassion you have for others. I only want to
encourage you in that. Yes, stay and be that healing comfort. You have a unique gift & posting on
the boards is a great way of sharing your heart and experience.
That is also true about what you said on how long it takes someone to recover from something like this.
It IS an individual thing. I simply offered my experience for someone who is ready to move on but
can't. This is what worked for me but each person will have to find their own way back to life.
Everytime I am tempted to look for another leader or teacher, Jesus reminds me that HE is my only
Rabbi, prophet and teacher. I needn't look to any other man for that! That is really what a cult is,
focus on ONE man's exegesis on scripture. After a while, we begin to look to him or the group for
everything and that is always a mistake. That is why Jesus taught to call no man "leader":
"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, {that is,} Christ." Matthew 23:10
If I had listened to Jesus instead of these so called "prophets", I would not have ended up it this circumstance
in the first place. Still God had mercy on me and kept calling me to His Son. I am SO GLAD He did! Jesus
did not cast me out or turn me away so what do I care about man-made religious cults? He said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." John 6:37
Roy, may God continue to bless and strengthen you to help others!
yes "each person will have to find their own way back to life"
yes look on Jesus the Christ
I used to look to uncover truths within the bible by fleshly works of research but now I let the spirit of Christ in me teach me the truth as I look for Christ like you said
Roy, you have blessed me too even though I am already healed and whole in Christ.
This was a very important point that you made though:
"I used to look to uncover truths within the bible by fleshly works of research but now I let the spirit of Christ in me teach me the truth as I look for Christ like you said"
Yes, I did the same thing! I thought by studying ad infinitum I'd somehow make myself more acceptable to God. Right. The beauty of God's grace is that it is not something that we earn or strive for. It is free. More than that, if we allow him, Christ will indeed teach us the things that are most needed in our walk with him. It as individualized as is our function in his body. Not all of us are called to do the same things. We can then be open to serving where the Lord calls us to. His yoke is indeed easy and his burden is light!
Obviously the Lord Jesus has revealed much to your heart because in just a few sentences, you've summed up the
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year2027
God first
Beloved dmiller
God loves you my dear friend
Do not get me wrong I like CES too I just do not like the money thing personally
I just personally think its better to give things away free and to be a non-church without ties to the goverment to save on taxes
Some of the break off from the Way have the best teachings out there
I write John now and then
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Lone Wolf McQuade
dmiller, you said...
Yes I would have to agree. They had no problems back then. As soon as they become a "ministry", look at how little time passed before there were problems. They should have stayed the way they were.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Lone Wolf McQuade
God loves you my dear friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Ham
After quite a while, I think I finally got your point Roy.
Technology is sooooo daggone cheap.. why make it such a big deal, and just "move the word", or share what think is truth..
It seems that to make MONEY, you have to make it "a big deal".
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year2027
God first
Beloved Mr. Hammeroni
God loves you my dear friend
that blesses me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Ham
Another thing..
rehashed, reboxed pfal.. why bother trying to sell it, to those who have bought it again, and again, and again.
I bought pfal at least.. six times.
foundational.. $85.00. intermediate, 35 (I think). Advanced, $550.00. WAP "repackage" of pfal- I forget how much.. it wasn't free. loy's "new and improved" advanced class.. I forget.. but it was in hundreds.. plus two "pfal" classes, repackaged from an offshoot.
Every time I hear "you gotta take this class.. it's the finest since Paul invented liver and onions.."
I think they are trying to sell an eskimo snow in the winter..
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GrouchoMarxJr
When considering Christian ministry, I don't think it's appropriate to compare it to "for profit" businesses...
Christian ministry is a service and labor of love that is a calling...not a calling to provide a paycheck...but a calling to minister in Christ's name. I would never even consider charging money for sharing my knowledge of Christianity. This is not a business that is designed to produce a profit...it's something that is done from the heart...for free.
Once sombody incorporates and "gives it a name" and raises a flag over their place of "business", it ceases to be a person to person communication and it becomes a business with expenses, overhead, etc...this is not what I am looking to be involved with...
if this is your "calling"...go for it...but it's not mine.
To me, it's like starting a business called "friendship incorporated"...I'll be your friend and I'll send you newsletters and tapes telling you what a good friend I am to you...but gosh, this costs me money...therefore, I have to get some money from you in order to cover my expenses...and by the way, because I do this full time, I don't have time to work a regular job...therefore, I need to be compensated in order to pay my rent and buy groceries...
No thanks...my friends don't charge me money for being my friend, my savior doesn't charge me money for being my Lord and God doesn't charge me money for being my God...If you want to charge me money for your "services"...fine...I'll consider you as I do any of my other bills, such as my electric bill, phone bill or rent...I'll pay you out of obligation for services rendered...
...but don't be surprised when I don't subscribe to your "business" and pay you nothing...you want to sell tapes and books and make a living out of it?...good for you...look elsewhere because I'm not buying stuff that God gives me for free...
I want nothing to do with the "God business"...been there, done that.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Mr. Hammeroni and GrouchoMarxJr
God loves you my dear friends
Mr. Hammeroni - yes at the soth pole "I think they are trying to sell an eskimo snow in the winter"
GrouchoMarxJr - me too "I would never even consider charging money for sharing my knowledge of Christianity" I agree "This is not a business that is designed to produce a profit...it's something that is done from the heart...for free." -- me too "I'm not buying stuff that God gives me for free..."
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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ChristAlone
What we are seeing is God's Grace, (which is free), peddled for profit. That's how the WAY operated and it's offshoots are no different, despite their claims. As Groucho said, "I want nothing to do with the 'God Business'...been there, done that."
I'm new here but was also victim of a religious cult. "Victim" because my parents got involved without first checking their history. Big mistake. Long story short, after years of listening to what the cult said, I actually read the Bible for myself. I saw that they actually fit the description of the Pharisees! I went to Christ, RENOUNCED the group's leader as the false prophet that he was and repented of following him. I tossed all their garbage books, tapes & videos too. That my friends, was my ticket to freedom because he who the Son sets free is free indeed!
"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 3:36)
My experience is that if you don't do that, you will most likely end up in another cult before long. You will also still be under the leader's deceiving spirit. Look at the founder's lifestyle. Jesus' words hold true, "A good tree can not produce bad fruit." The offshoots of these cults end up at the same destination because they are founded on some man's delusions rather than holding to Christ the head. Jesus said "If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) Immorality, temper tantrums, lying, drunkeness, egotism, etc. are all ROTTEN FRUITS and any "teacher" exhibiting such behavior should be avoided like the plague.
My mistake is that I followed a man instead of THE MAN God appointed. Never again. I can't tell you how my life has turned around. I now have my own ministry, not to gather disciples for myself but souls for Christ. I go out and preach to those in rehabilitation centers and hospitals. I'm also a musician and do Christian concerts. I have never been happier in my life!!!
I sleep soundly at night and look forward to intimate prayer time with the Father and His Son whereas before I found prayer tedious and difficult. Only God could do that in your heart. Most religious cults want to take the place of Christ as mediator so you depend on them for "enlightened teachings". Trust me. God's Word says in James 1:5 to ask HIM for wisdom which He gives freely to all without upbraiding and IT WILL be given to you. Do you believe all of God's promises?
I had to do something proactive. I could have joined an ex-cult member's group but what would be the point? I could keep looking back or I could strap myself to the plow and move ahead. That's just what Jesus said we would have to do. Don't keep looking behind because when you do that, you'll find that you are still in the same spot!
I've not only been there and done that but I've moved on to much greater things in the service of my Lord and King. I don't ask for money from people either. Paul and Barnabas knew they had a right to be supported by the saints but chose not to assert that privilege. Notice these for money preachers are always telling YOU to have faith in God to supply your needs so that you can abundantly give to THEM. How is it that they never apply this teaching to themselves? Another red flag folks. I can testify that I not only have enough money to meet my ministry expenses for travel, sound and musical equipment, etc. but I even have money left over to give to donate and support others! Again, only God can do that! I trust Him each day with my needs and am amazed at the people and provisions He sends to bless me without my having to ask for money.
So that's my 2 cents. I'm not goiong to stay on this board long but I'm praying for everyone here. However, at least TRY what I have said if you still can not find peace or move on. I know some people may not want to but there are some who do. Either way, I am still praying for everyone here.
Peace and Blessings,
(in) ChristAlone
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChristAlone
God loves you my dear friend
welcome
yes "Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 3:36)
yes I believe all of God's promises and all way have
"to joined an ex-cult member's group" like this board the point would be to help bring light to people in pain
there so many pains in this world but we must help were God sents us
God send me here for me to get help so I could help others
we are praying for you too
yes in Peace and Blessings,
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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ChristAlone
Bless you Roy and thank you for the welcome! You have a loving heart to help those who have
come here for solace. However, if years later people are still depressed, detached and basically stuck in
"ex-cult limbo", some may feel its time to move on. I mean being bummed gets old pretty quick.
I visited an ex-cult message board for my own group when I first left. I came back 9 months later and the
same people were still talking about the same stuff!
It seems nobody had moved on or gotten up out of it. They weren't talking about God, their community,
or feeding the poor. They just spent hours posting what the cult took from them. Now that to me is a
waste of the rest of the precious days God has given us. Yes, these false prophets took advantage
of us but we can't let them have even more of our lives. I had to get off the computer, turn it over to
Christ and get back into the real world. I now have many friends and associates from all walks of life.
That is the thing about cults is they isolate us from everyone else who does not share the same belief or
experience. If this message board has become the final destination rather than a pit-stop for healing,
then we may have simply traded one form of isolation for another.
For what is worth, this is what I had to do to finally begin living again. Yeah its a bit scarey but I
knew it was the only way to take back what the enemy had stolen. Otherwise even from the grave
these charlatans would still have power over me. Maybe they wasted some of my time (20
or so years!) and money but no more. Not happening.
Bless everyone,
ChristAlone
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChristAlone
God loves you my dear friend
I been on these boards a long time I saw some move on, new ones come as new ones are all ways coming and growth in my life and others things
Now I all so post on EX-JW boards I seem new boards build to help the righteous I seen people hearts changed for the good
Now I all so go on non non-cult boards christian and non christian boards were I share my heart with all that will listen and one could say that part of my ministry to post on board after board
I have been banned from more boards than I can count from sharing my heart
thanks for blessing me
yes some talk about the same old things but I see that as a staged and who am I to judge how long we live in any stage
I am here to love no matter what and show the world it about love not worldly things
the computer as a tool to reach the broken hearted and with the Way cult there comes a new set of people needing help every month
this message board is just a place to share what God has taught me with others
most of my treads are in the doctrine area go there write what God has taught you any time many will read
I was in the way cult from 1981 to about 1995 and it took me until about 2003 to begin healing the way destroyed my life but no man made church will ever do that again
yes bless everybody
if it takes me a year to help one person I am thankful
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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ChristAlone
Roy, May God bless you and then bless you again!!! I went back and read some of your posts on the
other pages. What came through was the loving compassion you have for others. I only want to
encourage you in that. Yes, stay and be that healing comfort. You have a unique gift & posting on
the boards is a great way of sharing your heart and experience.
That is also true about what you said on how long it takes someone to recover from something like this.
It IS an individual thing. I simply offered my experience for someone who is ready to move on but
can't. This is what worked for me but each person will have to find their own way back to life.
Everytime I am tempted to look for another leader or teacher, Jesus reminds me that HE is my only
Rabbi, prophet and teacher. I needn't look to any other man for that! That is really what a cult is,
focus on ONE man's exegesis on scripture. After a while, we begin to look to him or the group for
everything and that is always a mistake. That is why Jesus taught to call no man "leader":
"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, {that is,} Christ." Matthew 23:10
If I had listened to Jesus instead of these so called "prophets", I would not have ended up it this circumstance
in the first place. Still God had mercy on me and kept calling me to His Son. I am SO GLAD He did! Jesus
did not cast me out or turn me away so what do I care about man-made religious cults? He said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." John 6:37
Roy, may God continue to bless and strengthen you to help others!
In His Mercy,
ChristAlone
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChristAlone
God loves you my dear friend
thanks for the double blessing from God
you have encouraged me
yes "each person will have to find their own way back to life"
yes look on Jesus the Christ
I used to look to uncover truths within the bible by fleshly works of research but now I let the spirit of Christ in me teach me the truth as I look for Christ like you said
yes in his Mercy
your reply has blessed my heart
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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ChristAlone
Roy, you have blessed me too even though I am already healed and whole in Christ.
This was a very important point that you made though:
"I used to look to uncover truths within the bible by fleshly works of research but now I let the spirit of Christ in me teach me the truth as I look for Christ like you said"
Yes, I did the same thing! I thought by studying ad infinitum I'd somehow make myself more acceptable to God. Right.
The beauty of God's grace is that it is not something that we earn or strive for. It is free. More than that, if we allow him, Christ will indeed teach us the things that are most needed in our walk with him. It as individualized as is our function in his body. Not all of us are called to do the same things. We can then be open to serving where the Lord calls us to. His yoke is indeed easy and his burden is light!
Obviously the Lord Jesus has revealed much to your heart because in just a few sentences, you've summed up the
the most important lesson.....love!
Much love and peace to you precious saint,
ChristAlone
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChristAlone
God loves you my dear friend
yes its free
you have blessed my heart thanks
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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