T&O, first I appreciate the insight you've provided here. Your knowledge of the recent interworkings of TWI is revealing.
You contribute infinitely more value here than me.
I'm not defending every church, ministry or group who has a book, class, etc to sell. I am defending an organization's
right to charge a realistic fee (or donation) to cover the cost of their books, tapes, etc. The TWI class format is absolutely
wrong. I beleive the CFF format is quite reasonable, buy a class, do with it what you want because you own all the materials,
not just granted access to them in a limited manner. No need to involve another soul if you don't want to or else involve all
you want. I think they will even allow you to make copies of thes syllabus, no need for each person to purchase their own.
The groups who give away their materials do so because they have the financial means to do so; i.e., a generous group of followers or "earned income" from other sources. I respect those groups for giving their materials away. But back to part of my post you omitted, there is no such thing as a free lunch (modified this time by "unless God provides it"). Books, tapes, programs aren't without cost. How are they to be paid for? Or do we not need books, tapes, etc.? (I know Blarney's and some others answer).
This is interesting stuff. Maybe I'll agree wholeheartedly with y'all before it's over.
I realize this thread is not just about offshoots, but I want to clarify (from my perspective) regarding CFF. I have had limited experience with offshoots and most of that has been with CFF.
To clarify (at least from what I have seen), CFF has not built their work around a class (or classes). Classes are offered but not required or even really "promoted" (from my limited experience). I exited TWI via a CFF minister. He gave me one of the CFF classes after I asked if I could borrow one. I copied the syllabus and the cds to cassettes, and that was okay....as long as I didn't go out and start selling stuff. That may not be standard protocol, I dunno. I imagine if someone couldn't afford to buy one of their classes, CFF would do the same for that person (as the CFF minister did for me). CFF helped me a lot when I left TWI and NEVER, NEVER asked anything in return.
Can it arise organically and not in a contrived way? Christ at work within each individual, and each -- led by the spirit -- to love as he loved? The revelation of his love growing stronger and flowing through ... his body?
Blarney
I agree Blarney, whole heartedly.
I have used that term "organically" regularly, after leaving TWI and experiencing relationships among different groups. Someone asked what I meant by "organic" and I had to think about it. I thought of the human body and how it works to nourish/heal itself. It intuitively knows where to send the nutrients, etc., to do their work. In a similar way, if people are allowed to intuitively follow where led (with "god"/"love" working in their hearts), will that not allow the body to function as needed?
And I add, for some, that may be via taking a class/seminar/etc. Cannot that (seminars) also be part of the organic growth? But I guess the point is the $$ charged for those classes......hmmm, which could be done on a freewill donation basis.
(That's all.....thanks to whomever for reading my little ramble.... )
I have used that term "organically" regularly, after leaving TWI and experiencing relationships among different groups. Someone asked what I meant by "organic" and I had to think about it. I thought of the human body and how it works to nourish/heal itself. It intuitively knows where to send the nutrients, etc., to do their work. In a similar way, if people are allowed to intuitively follow where led (with "god"/"love" working in their hearts), will that not allow the body to function as needed?
And I add, for some, that may be via taking a class/seminar/etc. Cannot that (seminars) also be part of the organic growth? But I guess the point is the $$ charged for those classes......hmmm, which could be done on a freewill donation basis.
(That's all.....thanks to whomever for reading my little ramble.... )
Wonderful words, Bagpipes.
We each have our own unique cirriculum, have had people point us to the signposts along the path.
As spiritual "free agents," we allow Christ to lead us into green pastures, where the nutrients are just right.
I like books, books that inspired me to explore the deeper paths of his love. And then I pass them on to those who are interested. For free.
To follow someone else -- and letting his/her path become mine -- is denominationalism. His/her path is not mine. And it is false for both of us. I may walk with that person every so briefly, but then I move on, relying on the voice of the shepherd always. As I follow, I discover that doctrines and beliefs fall off, and I become more at one with his love.
For the way of the tribal war gods is: "my god or belief is better than yours." And with violence we assert and defend because it is, at times, based on investment, be it time or money.
We come together, not in belief, but in his love, encouraging spiritual discernment, which cannot be defined but only intuited through seeking only him. To know only love, which The One is.
And this is free. And this beginning to be discerned and manifested throughout his body. Beating swords into plowshares...and resting in his love... And finally, the money will stop flowing and the world will stop groaning, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.
This is my dream.
With love and a holy kiss blowing your way, Roy and All! (Love that tagline)
I have received free classes from a group that was non-EX-Way one time by written and telling them I do not pay for classes or books and I done this other places
I think it should all ways be done free but this is me
there a lot to talk about asking for money can it be justifield or does it need to be?
there are alot of groups who sell things because they were taught to do that but a work of love I believe was not done to get money nor should it be sold
I write because I love to write and thrink
I try to be open minded about things but some times I am not
I'm not defending every church, ministry or group who has a book, class, etc to sell. I am defending an organization's
right to charge a realistic fee (or donation) to cover the cost of their books, tapes, etc. The TWI class format is absolutely
wrong. I beleive the CFF format is quite reasonable, buy a class, do with it what you want because you own all the materials,
not just granted access to them in a limited manner. No need to involve another soul if you don't want to or else involve all
you want. I think they will even allow you to make copies of thes syllabus, no need for each person to purchase their own.
The groups who give away their materials do so because they have the financial means to do so; i.e., a generous group of followers or "earned income" from other sources. I respect those groups for giving their materials away. But back to part of my post you omitted, there is no such thing as a free lunch (modified this time by "unless God provides it"). Books, tapes, programs aren't without cost. How are they to be paid for? Or do we not need books, tapes, etc.? (I know Blarney's and some others answer).
I've never said an organization doesn't have the right to charge.. But having the freewill to do as we please, and doing it God's way are usually two different things. If a man has the ability to give of his time and resources to help another human being in need, should he charge money just because he CAN? This is where works and faith meet the road.. We say we serve the one true God, and all we have is His, but when it comes to having things in common, when it comes to sharing the things we've been given, oh no.. That's MINE! I studied for years and took lots of time to write this book, oh no, I want money for my effort! It's not an issue of being able to make a profit, or even to pay for your time and resources, it's really a matter of what's the heart behind it all. Is my heart behind teaching a seminar, taping a class, writing a book about me making money? Making a living? If it is, you've just taken God out of the picture and it's all bout YOU! Did Paul work for a living? You bet he did. And he was proud he was "chargeable to NO man" when he wrote the Corinthian household. But someone who gives of their time and resources, making a tape, write a book, for the purpose of helping others is not going to try and make a profit. He's there to help and give, not receive. Are we givers or takers? If we give with the ulterior motive that we require something in return, then we're trying to become our own sufficiency, rather than trusting God to take care of us and meet our need. it's the true believers that put their trust in Him, and give of themselves requiring nothing in return, and it's then that God is able to work exceedingly mighty in that situation to bless them back. Is it our work or His?! If it's His, we ought to rest in His ability to care for us, not our own man made business schemes that serve to take care of ourselves. Trust in God.. That's what is all boils down to. Paul did.. He worked when he had to, and when the believers would bless Him, he probably didn't need to as much..
All things in common too. Remember that in Acts? If you don't want to give, don't. No one is forcing you to. But don't tell me you're giving to the Body if you at the same time are requiring something in return. That's what we call a hypocryte.
But having the freewill to do as we please, and doing it God's way are usually two different things. If a man has the ability to give of his time and resources to help another human being in need, should he charge money just because he CAN? This is where works and faith meet the road.. We say we serve the one true God, and all we have is His, but when it comes to having things in common, when it comes to sharing the things we've been given, oh no.. That's MINE!
Trust,
That's so true. We've become very selfish.
When I read your post, I immediately thought about copyrights. There's this idea that these things are "MINE," like you said. Those neatly-package teaching sets involve extra cost. And I've noticed that many include copyright info. I've come to avoid those things. But as long as there's a market, they'll make them.
That's why I respect those why offer mp3's and writings on the internet for free. (and some don't ask for donations, even.)
You're right, I'd much rather give directly to those with real needs and guard my wallet when it comes to Bible teaching. These are my own personal choices.
BTW, I loved the expression, "This is where works and faith meet the road."
Let me start by saying that I KNOW there are people who peddle the Word of God for profit (2 Cor. 2:17). And if that's what they're doing, then the Lord will expose them at the judgments.
But when I see a piece of work like One God & One Lord from CES, and I see all the work, study, and research they did to put that together, should I not pay them for the privilege of getting a personal copy of all THEIR hard work?
That's not peddling the Word of God for profit. I am thankful for what Shoenheit and those guys have done and the works they have come out with and to think that they should just be handing that over for free to every clown just so they can despise it and trample on it is ridiculous. Like the one bozo on here who asked if anyone wanted to give up a copy of their One God & One Lord because he wouldn't feel like he's being a wise steward to what God had entrusted him with by coughin up the $29.
That is absolutely the most religious, pathetic thing I have damn near ever heard. What a disgrace. What arrogance. What a loser.
So yes, some peddle, but not all do.
Didn't God tell us in Proverbs to seek wisdom, even though it cost us everything we have (Prov. 4:7)? Where did we get the idea that wisdom is free? Air is free, sunlight is free. How do I know? Because everyone has them. Wisdom is not free. The only ones who have it are those who have paid the price, time and money, to have it.
...when I see a piece of work like One God & One Lord from CES, and I see all the work, study, and research they did to put that together, should I not pay them for the privilege of getting a personal copy of all THEIR hard work?
That's not peddling the Word of God for profit. I am thankful for what Shoenheit and those guys have done and the works they have come out with and to think that they should just be handing that over for free to every clown just so they can despise it and trample on it is ridiculous. Like the one bozo on here who asked if anyone wanted to give up a copy of their One God & One Lord because he wouldn't feel like he's being a wise steward to what God had entrusted him with by coughin up the $29.
Just a question to ask yourself, why did they write the book, 'One God & One Lord' ? What was their purpose? To make money? To help those who are searching for answers? Think about it.. If my heart was to help people. To help them find the answers, if that truly was my heart, why would I not make all the information I have available to give, given to those who ask?! Why? Why instead would I say, you know, I'm glad you're searching for answers now, pay money and here's the answers?! By their fruit ye shall know them. If I want to help someone, I will help them with every amount of my being that I am willing to give. But there in lies a key word "willing". If I was willing to give of my heart and life to help someone, then I will give my heart and life. If we are to love as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it, then why should we be willing to do less? And if we are not to do less, then how is that I should stand in the way of someone understanding something that I worked so hard so that I might help them, only to now withhold that key piece of information because a stupid piece of silver wasn't given to me.
That's WORLDLY crap. God gave us life and everything in it because he loves us. And instead you want to say that those who covet, those who have a need to keep for themselves a little silver because of their work, are just as loving and have a heart to help and give and serve? Let's get real.
Now, sure, a book costs money to print. So, if a person wants to help others and can't afford to give the book away, charge what it costs. Yet, there's the internet and it costs nothing to post information. But noooo, it cost me time and research, and it's MINE. No God's.. Oh no, that verse about the earth being God's and the fullness thereof isn't completely correct, cause I worked on that piece of art, it's MINE! My research. Miy life. My ways. Mine Mine Mine!
No, my Lord said ask and it shall be given to you (for a fee?), knock and the door shall be open (for a price?), seek and ye shall find. Maybe sometimes our travels through life cost us, but God never authorized those who have made the trip to now put a stumbling block in front of his brother/sister so they can not pass until they pay a fine. Instead he said let him who wishes to be the greatest, let him be your servant. How have we communed with God and learned from Him, only to now have the opportunity to help those who are just beginning on this journey, and how more godly is it to help them with all that we have and are, rather than to hinder them by requiring something of them for your service, which ought to be freely given to God?
Christ died that we might be free, why put ye a yoke on your brothers and sisters because you want them to pay for your work?
two excellent points were made I would like to address:
1 Paul didnt have as much need as said by trust and obey, the focus of His ministry was his Own service to Jesus Christ.
he entered into the work of the Lord not by his own will to be sure, He was confronted by the Lord, because he was killing Gods children in the SERVICE of God, he was very serious trying his best to meet the religous requirement of his day!
he stood corrected after Jesus gave him a little chat....
So his life was changed for the Lord, not people who were of a certain group that he spun together or scraped off a failing ministry.
God blessed his work for Him, and he didnt do it for the money or come into the situation with a butch of needs ,a wife a ex wife quite a few children , land , a camp a school travelling all of what life can be. HIS LIFE was serving the LORD!
that is in contrast to some men who say HERE ARE MY NEEDS , meet them and I will then serve the LORD for you.
the cost of writing a book or a tape etc is often covered in churches or ministry by the free will offering of people who attend and SUPPORT that church and/or ministry.
yes you do have to have number large enough to DO that..... and at what point does it become a people pleasing ministry to hold onto the support?
well it comes down to accountability a larger group of supporters means a larger group of accountability to them.
alot more serving alot more answering ? alot more WORK!!!!!
CES does not have the large numbers or enough dedicated to give them the amount to "freely share" their teaching and books.
they do not have to work other than when they want to. they travel, when they want to, they live where they want to they dam wel do what ever they want to..
how nice for them. how unreal most ministries have to be accountable for the job they do.
was Paul?? maybe not but he DID NOT ask for his life style and his needs to be met by people either.
does it cost money to publish a book? sure. does it cost time and accountability and hours and/or travel that may not be good for you to have a ministry large enough to have money donated because they appreciate what YOU do?
yep.
and CES does not have the willingness to do that to please the people enough to be able to give their stuff away.
they have their own thing and keep it that way always have.
no accountability brings HUGE freedom.
they do not serve or do anything that isnt on THEIR time line or wish list.
but ministers of these large churches and minstires that provide free stuff do it is also called a job to get done, they sacrafice time family and hold their self accountable to do it.
what is right and wrong? i do not know.
but the fact CES does not have the amount of support they need to cover the cost of publishing a book speaks very loud, to me it says we do not have enough people we have served or believe in us or our ministry to do that.
but we can fund a great many things like graduate school for one of our ministers , travel when WE want for who we want lots of kids divorce court , insurance , of course WE decide how we spend it and spin the accountability to NO one eles!!!!
so pay for the book already.
the devil doesnt like the truth, it mut be because truth is less appealing than tradition so fewer people will help us.
I see you two are having fun I love to see a loving gentel debate thanks
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Lone Wolf McQuade and pond
God loves you my dear friends
Lone Wolf McQuade - you do not have to agree with me -- As for "One God & One Lord from CES" I believe they should love you enough to Email you the first copy - but this is me seeing everything spiritual as a personal fellowship one on one
My Time Line on my web page took me more than one year and I still add to it now and then but its free and some despise it and trample on it has it being ridiculous but its my heart's work
air is not free we must breath take action
wisdom we must ask God or Christ for wisdom all elst is worldly wisdom even if on the word of God
research only shows you what the natural men see's but the key is too see it spiritual the deep insight
pond - Paul had the same needs as all of us we are have the same basic needs eat, drink, sleep, breath, and other basic needs but others are wants
Paul was in a ministry before he join Christ he was in the Ministry of sin
why does anything have to be publish?
everybody and everygroup has accountability either to God or the world
yes the devil does not like the truth
The truth is a group or person either worships money or God
What are they doing with all the money? Are the TWI transfering all to offshore banks so that when the TWI is no more they can live in paradice in some other country? I am sorry they were not broken under the RICO laws.
I agree with Lone Wolf M. There is absolutely nothing wrong with charging for a book -- any kind of book -- that any lay person or clergy puts up the capital to research, edit, do the cover design, print, bind, warehouse, inventory and distribute.
Do you guys have any idea of what kind of $$ it takes to do that?
Yes, Paul had a job. Tentmaker, but he CHOSE not to take anything from the church at Corinth. But he said he sure had a right to take a portion of whatever was collected. Read I Cor. 9. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
Believe me CES ain't getting rich or "fat" off anything and anyone who thinks they are doesn't know what he's talking about. The CEO Dan G. is not even paid a salary. And I have gone to their conferences for like $30 -- cheap! -- and they mail me a full-color magazine bi-monthly for Zero $. Believe me, that magazine costs money to produce and they give it away!
So I don't know where you guys are coming from on this one. Something way back in the windmills of your minds.....
the cost is very little if you share your work by the internet the best way
the basic imternet cost $10-50 a month basic web site $20 - 500 a month depending on size
then the is Email the work out
home print a book and in in a fyler form
cost of good printer about $200 - 5,000 - paper $2 - 100 depending on copies ink $70 - 200 laster ink
yes I know but Paul had none of these things and he reach all Asia
Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
there books only reach the people in their group
how money do you think Paul had
The Way said they are not rich either
1 Cor 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
spiritual things we are talking about here
look up the word money it loses it value
look up Jesus Christ said about tithing
Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
the tithe being part of the law
than the is Paul's statement when he got money just for his needs
2 Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
he called it robbed and there are other places
is not written a book doing us service
sure CES and others do things right and they do things wrong too
from the word and knowing what love is
Why become a non tax church if there not money in it
to become non tax church you follower a set of guide lines
if I ever make a manmade church I will never subject it to the goverment to save a little money there will be no money took in just people coming together
I hope you know I not mad at CES I just do not believe its right to sale God's word in any way
and yes you do not have to agree with me
I can be wrong been wrong before but believe I am right and a saw nothing to get me to asked God about it again but I will for the sakes of a few
that not going to happen but I see working the word of God as a act of love and I can give you verses like
2 Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
Gen 47:15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.
money fails and money is the root of all evil
while there are more if a person has desided its ok nothing will changed their mind
I used to think its was ok
VPW told us he only took $200.00 a month pay but look how much money he used
but we must not forget the great gift Christ gave for us and the many works written down over the years that have cost no money
And yes a labor is worthly of his labor
John 4:38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.
our reward for labor is life after death with are spiritual rewards that do not rust
But when we work fleshly we get fleshly rewards which sets the labor of love of the ministry as one thing and the labor of fleshly things another thing
In my eyes
I sure it is (Their work on One God and One Lord is an EXCELLENT piece of writing.) but I will never read it because I will not buy the book nor will I ask for it free
but this is me
I am not upset that they and others charged for books I just think its wrong like what Simon the S. and acts wanted to do -- sale the truths God has revealed to a person is wrong in my eyes
What does that mean to me -- the one thing a person might need to believe is out of their reach
this tread was wrote to address all that charged to get rich not just CES
I think you overlook the actual reasoning here. The reasoning is not "everything should be free".. Can you point out anyone saying that? That whatever one does should be free?
No, what we are pointing out is that we either are working for God and helping His children, or we are working for ourselves and the world. It's a choice. Does the movie theatre make movies available to benefit God, or themselves? I'm sure we know that answer. But what about CES? Did that write that book to help others or to help themselves?
If someone needed clothing and you had it to give, would you give it? If someone needed the word of God, and you had it to give, would you make it available? Why is it, that because the secular realm charges money, it's ok to make merchandise of God's things? Why is it ok to tell God's children, you aren't worthy of reading or owning this piece of reasearch unless you pay for it. Who made you God, and the work of your hand, your own? Is not the earth the Lord's and the fullness thereof? And yet we rob God everyday by coveting and hording to ourselves those things that God has only made us stewards of. Not owners, stewards.
If you want to take time to write some book and charge money, fine. But if you at the same time think you are helping God's children by requiring money to know what you've written, you are fooling yourself but not God. It's the heart.. The heart to serve or be served. If we truly have a heart to serve and be as our Lord Jesus, then we will give all that we are for the benefit of others. Yet if you are looking to benefit yourself at the same time, then you have proven only one thing, you really don't trust God with your life. Your sufficiency is no longer God, but rather your works and your man made actions. You are telling God how you want to be paid, rather than allowing God to bless you. For surely you have your reward among men, but blessed by God are those who give and require nothing in return.
Paul chose not receive what the church made available out of the goodness of their hearts. But that was out of the goodness of their hearts, God placed on the members to give. That's relying on God to bless. Which is directly in contrast to you blessing yourself by requiring the reward up front. And as I already said, you have your reward among men, but blessed by God are those who give and require nothing in return for they shall be rewarded by God righteously.
Contrast that with the fact everyone knows how we buy and sell america's goods such as a movie or our electric etc.
the utility company does not say "WE live the life style we chose, do what we want when we want and have zero accountability to anyone but our own self and those we chose all because God works in me, so give me money, for your electric.
they answer to others and have regulations and MUST follow the norms of society laws etc.
STF says This is what God has me write and because im obeying God you OWE me!
let me say i need my heat when it is below zero even MORE!!! and maybe the guy who pushes the button downtown to have the electric run through the line is also working for GOD!!!!
it is a freaking job.
Im not impressed anymore than I am with anyone eles doing what they need to do to help our community and bless another.
again it is the elitism taught in twi!! and many churches.
what bothers me is they are not accountable. and do not act like all the money goes to write another book, it doesnt they live very well and their families. and you claim they do not get paid??? how about power and control and say so??? it is a payment for many in this old world.
again no accountability.
that is the problem.
how can some not charge for thier materials?
because they have people who are in on their mission that feel a part of it and love the mission and purpose enough to FREELY GIVE to that group enough so there is ENOUGH left over to provide for those who can not or who chose not to.
why? because Jesus is all about freedom and his words should be free.
why cant stf do that? because they do NOT answer to anyone they do not give a rats foot about community or want to be accountable to anyone for thier time or work.
it is their CHOICE.
God can bless thier stuff and make it happen to be able to provide but they CHOSE not to have a community that is large enough to make it happen!!!
I can appreciate the sentiment to not make money off God's work. Lord knows we have seen enough charletons and televangelists who have abused those privileges. So, Roy, I agree that people need to use discernment about where they send their money and for what.
There are also those who simply want to cover their costs of providing something of spiritual help to people. This would be true of any gospel music CD for sale in a store, or any cover charge I've paid to go to a "gospel" concert. No problem! As long as it isn't exhorbitant, I do not begrudge these folks who want to serve God, use their talents and make a living from it.
I am writing from the USA. This culture is one that is different from Paul's and other parts of the world. Like it or leave it -- it's the USA, and the free enterprise system does have its benefits and its pitfalls.
Fact is that some people do not have e-mail and the internet, and even if they do, they want an actual BOOK in their hands to carry around and keep on the shelf. Also STFI has an excellent website with many FREE articles on it. But you can't e-mail or print on an inkjet printer thousands of copies of a 600 page book! That is not an efficient use of funds or equipment.
It can be said that those who copied the scriptures throughout the ages did not make money off it. But a price was paid. Some paid with their lives to produce a book or get a copy of it.
I do not agree that that I. Cor. 9 is talking about "spiritual matters." If you read the context, Paul is talking about the rights of apostles to receive physical comforts and remuneration such as taking a wife along on journeys or getting a meal or two out of the church for his troubles. Read it in the Message (transliteration):
"We who are on missionary assignments for God have a right to decent accommodations, and we have a right to support for us and our families. You don't seem to have raised questions with the other apostles and our Master's brothers and Peter in these matters. So, why me? Is it just Barnabas and I who have to go it alone and pay our own way? Are soldiers self-employed? Are gardeners forbidden to eat vegetables from their own gardens? Don't milkmaids get to drink their fill from the pail?"
This sounds like ol' Paul was pretty irritated, and he did not receive their offerings out of pure obstinance to prove a point.
I think if someone wrote CES and said they could not afford the full price for a book of something, CES would comp it. I know they've had their issues, but I don't see greed as one of them.
TrustAndObey - I see you are debating David Miller and that is great
pond - Jesus is all about freedom and his words should be free.
Holy Smoke - yes "people need to use discernment about where they send their money and for what." I have never cover the cost of what it took me to do a "Time Line" I did it because it was a joy
- So Paul live when things were differ he still had the same basic needs but his wants were differ -- The whole word of God after the fall is about getting back the image of spirit Adam lost
how to live to get it - the coming Christ so we can get it back - what it means to get it back - the list goes on --
we work a job for to "support for us and our families" the way we want to live -- the word of God is like breathing we share it because we want spiritual life after soul death
but let me say I love all of you and you have the right to believe has you see best money has was tithing is a very small thing
God loves you and so do I. So please take my comments in all sincerety and friendliness. :)
You said...
the cost is very little if you share your work by the internet the best way
Well perhaps you may feel that is the best way. And if you were to put together a piece of work that you wanted to get "out", then I'm sure the Lord would work in your heart to do what was best in the situation for you, where you are moving the Word.
But to say the internet is the best way and therefore that's the medium that should always be used because it costs less is a bit unreasonable.
God works in people uniquely because each person's relationship with God is unique. This is why God exhorts us to "run in our own lane." It's dangerous to take what you see as the best way to move the Word and then look at others as though they should be doing it your way so they wouldn't have to charge any money.
There are multiple ways to move the Word; T.V., radio, books, magazines, conferences, and of course internet sites. All of these are great ways to get the message out and some cost more to do than others.
Heck if having everything costing nothing is such the great key to it all being genuine, then why have the internet site? Where is that money going to come from? Are you going to ask people for it? Why not just go out there and move the Word on the streets. After all, that's really the only form of getting the message out that is truly free.
So what about every person who has ever produced a concordance or a Lexicon. Should all that be givena way free too? After all, it will help us understand the Bible better so shouldn't it be free? Shouldn't they want to give it all away? This certainly cannot be the case.
But as for you TrustAndObey, you said...
But what about CES? Did that write that book to help others or to help themselves?
Are you saying this as though you have evidence that they only did it for themselves? I can't see the motives of their heart and neither can you.
What do I think? I think they wrote it to help people. Why do I think that? Because it sure helped me. After being brain-washed by TWI my whole life, it was One God & One Lord that convinced me it was OK to fellowship, talk to, and pray to my Lord Jesus Christ. What a freedom I found and a new walk I have never experienced before.
"And to think after all those years of research and work, they had the nerve to charge me a whopping $29 for it...Boo hoo.... my life's over, everyone's a counterfeit, everyone's only it for themselves....except me."
If you want to take time to write some book and charge money, fine. But if you at the same time think you are helping God's children by requiring money to know what you've written, you are fooling yourself but not God. It's the heart.. The heart to serve or be served. If we truly have a heart to serve and be as our Lord Jesus, then we will give all that we are for the benefit of others. Yet if you are looking to benefit yourself at the same time, then you have proven only one thing, you really don't trust God with your life. Your sufficiency is no longer God, but rather your works and your man made actions. You are telling God how you want to be paid, rather than allowing God to bless you. For surely you have your reward among men, but blessed by God are those who give and require nothing in return.
This whole paragraph is dripping with error.
if you at the same time think you are helping God's children by requiring money to know what you've written, you are fooling yourself but not God. It's the heart.
So you're saying that because they are charging the money for the books, you know what their heart is?
Your sufficiency is no longer God, but rather your works and your man made actions. You are telling God how you want to be paid, rather than allowing God to bless you.
This is mysticism and a "super-spirituality". Is God just supposed to deliver the money on their doorstep in a nice leather bag? CES isn't telling God how they want to be paid. Isn't God providing that need in people who buy their study materials? Doesn't God work in people's hearts to give to meet that need? God meets needs through other believers.
If I were to spend the next 5 years of my life studying a particular subject and committing it to a book and then gave it away for free and then said to God, "man God I'm praying and I'm serving you with all that I am, how come you haven't sent me any money so I can serve you more??
Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
If we truly have a heart to serve and be as our Lord Jesus, then we will give all that we are for the benefit of others.
Do you feel that you are accomplishing this more than they are? Is John Schoenheit not giving his all? What proof do you have that he's not? The fact that he's charging $29 for his hard work for the past 3-5 years? I would say he is giving his all. His research is excellent and makes TWI's look childish.
It's amazing the fact that because CES charges for their works, you suddenly know all kinds of things about them. You're implying that they wrote the book to help themselves. You're implying that their heart is to be served and not to serve, that they are looking to benefit themselves and that they don't trust God with their lives (all your words). You are making some mighty big assumptions about people who have helped many in the Body of Christ with the Word. You are judgmental. You are bitter.
If you feel that you shouldn't contribute then don't. There's plenty of other places to send your money.
But don't sit there in judgment like you're so spiritual implying if they were really loving people they would slave away in the scriptures their whole lives and then give it all away for free to some bozo who is offended that wisdom which can change your life might actually cost the same as a pizza and a six pack. How many of those have you bought in your life? You're just looking for a free handout and Jesus condemned such things.
Luke 10:1-7
After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.
Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.
Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.'
If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you.
Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
"What do you mean Jesus? Are you saying that they should get wages for preaching the gospel of the kingdom? Well, shouldn't that be all free? When they are offered food and drink, they should refuse it and instead believe God to meet their need".....please. <_<
Come on man, don't you have a little more insight?
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Mr. Pipes
T&O, first I appreciate the insight you've provided here. Your knowledge of the recent interworkings of TWI is revealing.
You contribute infinitely more value here than me.
I'm not defending every church, ministry or group who has a book, class, etc to sell. I am defending an organization's
right to charge a realistic fee (or donation) to cover the cost of their books, tapes, etc. The TWI class format is absolutely
wrong. I beleive the CFF format is quite reasonable, buy a class, do with it what you want because you own all the materials,
not just granted access to them in a limited manner. No need to involve another soul if you don't want to or else involve all
you want. I think they will even allow you to make copies of thes syllabus, no need for each person to purchase their own.
The groups who give away their materials do so because they have the financial means to do so; i.e., a generous group of followers or "earned income" from other sources. I respect those groups for giving their materials away. But back to part of my post you omitted, there is no such thing as a free lunch (modified this time by "unless God provides it"). Books, tapes, programs aren't without cost. How are they to be paid for? Or do we not need books, tapes, etc.? (I know Blarney's and some others answer).
This is interesting stuff. Maybe I'll agree wholeheartedly with y'all before it's over.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Blarney and Mr Pipes
God loves you my dear friend
Blarney - yes it can be done free like Paul and Jesus Christ did without the "hooplah"
Mr Pipes - there is nothing to defend - you can sell and buy - maybe you will agree wholeheartedly with us before it's over.
but that not my way I want riches in heaven not on this earth
it cost me very little to print things off the net and it cost me even less to write things to put on the net
what my labor value at -- getting heavenly rewards I am way overpaid
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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I Love Bagpipes
I realize this thread is not just about offshoots, but I want to clarify (from my perspective) regarding CFF. I have had limited experience with offshoots and most of that has been with CFF.
To clarify (at least from what I have seen), CFF has not built their work around a class (or classes). Classes are offered but not required or even really "promoted" (from my limited experience). I exited TWI via a CFF minister. He gave me one of the CFF classes after I asked if I could borrow one. I copied the syllabus and the cds to cassettes, and that was okay....as long as I didn't go out and start selling stuff. That may not be standard protocol, I dunno. I imagine if someone couldn't afford to buy one of their classes, CFF would do the same for that person (as the CFF minister did for me). CFF helped me a lot when I left TWI and NEVER, NEVER asked anything in return.
I agree Blarney, whole heartedly.
I have used that term "organically" regularly, after leaving TWI and experiencing relationships among different groups. Someone asked what I meant by "organic" and I had to think about it. I thought of the human body and how it works to nourish/heal itself. It intuitively knows where to send the nutrients, etc., to do their work. In a similar way, if people are allowed to intuitively follow where led (with "god"/"love" working in their hearts), will that not allow the body to function as needed?
And I add, for some, that may be via taking a class/seminar/etc. Cannot that (seminars) also be part of the organic growth? But I guess the point is the $$ charged for those classes......hmmm, which could be done on a freewill donation basis.
(That's all.....thanks to whomever for reading my little ramble....
)
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blarney
Wonderful words, Bagpipes.
We each have our own unique cirriculum, have had people point us to the signposts along the path.
As spiritual "free agents," we allow Christ to lead us into green pastures, where the nutrients are just right.
I like books, books that inspired me to explore the deeper paths of his love. And then I pass them on to those who are interested. For free.
To follow someone else -- and letting his/her path become mine -- is denominationalism. His/her path is not mine. And it is false for both of us. I may walk with that person every so briefly, but then I move on, relying on the voice of the shepherd always. As I follow, I discover that doctrines and beliefs fall off, and I become more at one with his love.
For the way of the tribal war gods is: "my god or belief is better than yours." And with violence we assert and defend because it is, at times, based on investment, be it time or money.
We come together, not in belief, but in his love, encouraging spiritual discernment, which cannot be defined but only intuited through seeking only him. To know only love, which The One is.
And this is free. And this beginning to be discerned and manifested throughout his body. Beating swords into plowshares...and resting in his love... And finally, the money will stop flowing and the world will stop groaning, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.
This is my dream.
With love and a holy kiss blowing your way, Roy and All! (Love that tagline)
Blarney
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year2027
God first
Beloved I Love Bagpipes and blarney
God loves you my dear friends
I have received free classes from a group that was non-EX-Way one time by written and telling them I do not pay for classes or books and I done this other places
I think it should all ways be done free but this is me
there a lot to talk about asking for money can it be justifield or does it need to be?
there are alot of groups who sell things because they were taught to do that but a work of love I believe was not done to get money nor should it be sold
I write because I love to write and thrink
I try to be open minded about things but some times I am not
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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TrustAndObey
I've never said an organization doesn't have the right to charge.. But having the freewill to do as we please, and doing it God's way are usually two different things. If a man has the ability to give of his time and resources to help another human being in need, should he charge money just because he CAN? This is where works and faith meet the road.. We say we serve the one true God, and all we have is His, but when it comes to having things in common, when it comes to sharing the things we've been given, oh no.. That's MINE! I studied for years and took lots of time to write this book, oh no, I want money for my effort! It's not an issue of being able to make a profit, or even to pay for your time and resources, it's really a matter of what's the heart behind it all. Is my heart behind teaching a seminar, taping a class, writing a book about me making money? Making a living? If it is, you've just taken God out of the picture and it's all bout YOU! Did Paul work for a living? You bet he did. And he was proud he was "chargeable to NO man" when he wrote the Corinthian household. But someone who gives of their time and resources, making a tape, write a book, for the purpose of helping others is not going to try and make a profit. He's there to help and give, not receive. Are we givers or takers? If we give with the ulterior motive that we require something in return, then we're trying to become our own sufficiency, rather than trusting God to take care of us and meet our need. it's the true believers that put their trust in Him, and give of themselves requiring nothing in return, and it's then that God is able to work exceedingly mighty in that situation to bless them back. Is it our work or His?! If it's His, we ought to rest in His ability to care for us, not our own man made business schemes that serve to take care of ourselves. Trust in God.. That's what is all boils down to. Paul did.. He worked when he had to, and when the believers would bless Him, he probably didn't need to as much..
All things in common too. Remember that in Acts? If you don't want to give, don't. No one is forcing you to. But don't tell me you're giving to the Body if you at the same time are requiring something in return. That's what we call a hypocryte.
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blarney
Trust,
That's so true. We've become very selfish.
When I read your post, I immediately thought about copyrights. There's this idea that these things are "MINE," like you said. Those neatly-package teaching sets involve extra cost. And I've noticed that many include copyright info. I've come to avoid those things. But as long as there's a market, they'll make them.
That's why I respect those why offer mp3's and writings on the internet for free. (and some don't ask for donations, even.)
You're right, I'd much rather give directly to those with real needs and guard my wallet when it comes to Bible teaching. These are my own personal choices.
BTW, I loved the expression, "This is where works and faith meet the road."
Blarney
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Roy,
God loves you and so do I.
But I gotta tell ya', I disagree.
Let me start by saying that I KNOW there are people who peddle the Word of God for profit (2 Cor. 2:17). And if that's what they're doing, then the Lord will expose them at the judgments.
But when I see a piece of work like One God & One Lord from CES, and I see all the work, study, and research they did to put that together, should I not pay them for the privilege of getting a personal copy of all THEIR hard work?
That's not peddling the Word of God for profit. I am thankful for what Shoenheit and those guys have done and the works they have come out with and to think that they should just be handing that over for free to every clown just so they can despise it and trample on it is ridiculous. Like the one bozo on here who asked if anyone wanted to give up a copy of their One God & One Lord because he wouldn't feel like he's being a wise steward to what God had entrusted him with by coughin up the $29.
That is absolutely the most religious, pathetic thing I have damn near ever heard. What a disgrace. What arrogance. What a loser.
So yes, some peddle, but not all do.
Didn't God tell us in Proverbs to seek wisdom, even though it cost us everything we have (Prov. 4:7)? Where did we get the idea that wisdom is free? Air is free, sunlight is free. How do I know? Because everyone has them. Wisdom is not free. The only ones who have it are those who have paid the price, time and money, to have it.
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TrustAndObey
Just a question to ask yourself, why did they write the book, 'One God & One Lord' ? What was their purpose? To make money? To help those who are searching for answers? Think about it.. If my heart was to help people. To help them find the answers, if that truly was my heart, why would I not make all the information I have available to give, given to those who ask?! Why? Why instead would I say, you know, I'm glad you're searching for answers now, pay money and here's the answers?! By their fruit ye shall know them. If I want to help someone, I will help them with every amount of my being that I am willing to give. But there in lies a key word "willing". If I was willing to give of my heart and life to help someone, then I will give my heart and life. If we are to love as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it, then why should we be willing to do less? And if we are not to do less, then how is that I should stand in the way of someone understanding something that I worked so hard so that I might help them, only to now withhold that key piece of information because a stupid piece of silver wasn't given to me.
That's WORLDLY crap. God gave us life and everything in it because he loves us. And instead you want to say that those who covet, those who have a need to keep for themselves a little silver because of their work, are just as loving and have a heart to help and give and serve? Let's get real.
Now, sure, a book costs money to print. So, if a person wants to help others and can't afford to give the book away, charge what it costs. Yet, there's the internet and it costs nothing to post information. But noooo, it cost me time and research, and it's MINE. No God's.. Oh no, that verse about the earth being God's and the fullness thereof isn't completely correct, cause I worked on that piece of art, it's MINE! My research. Miy life. My ways. Mine Mine Mine!
No, my Lord said ask and it shall be given to you (for a fee?), knock and the door shall be open (for a price?), seek and ye shall find. Maybe sometimes our travels through life cost us, but God never authorized those who have made the trip to now put a stumbling block in front of his brother/sister so they can not pass until they pay a fine. Instead he said let him who wishes to be the greatest, let him be your servant. How have we communed with God and learned from Him, only to now have the opportunity to help those who are just beginning on this journey, and how more godly is it to help them with all that we have and are, rather than to hinder them by requiring something of them for your service, which ought to be freely given to God?
Christ died that we might be free, why put ye a yoke on your brothers and sisters because you want them to pay for your work?
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pond
two excellent points were made I would like to address:
1 Paul didnt have as much need as said by trust and obey, the focus of His ministry was his Own service to Jesus Christ.
he entered into the work of the Lord not by his own will to be sure, He was confronted by the Lord, because he was killing Gods children in the SERVICE of God, he was very serious trying his best to meet the religous requirement of his day!
he stood corrected after Jesus gave him a little chat....
So his life was changed for the Lord, not people who were of a certain group that he spun together or scraped off a failing ministry.
God blessed his work for Him, and he didnt do it for the money or come into the situation with a butch of needs ,a wife a ex wife quite a few children , land , a camp a school travelling all of what life can be. HIS LIFE was serving the LORD!
that is in contrast to some men who say HERE ARE MY NEEDS , meet them and I will then serve the LORD for you.
the cost of writing a book or a tape etc is often covered in churches or ministry by the free will offering of people who attend and SUPPORT that church and/or ministry.
yes you do have to have number large enough to DO that..... and at what point does it become a people pleasing ministry to hold onto the support?
well it comes down to accountability a larger group of supporters means a larger group of accountability to them.
alot more serving alot more answering ? alot more WORK!!!!!
CES does not have the large numbers or enough dedicated to give them the amount to "freely share" their teaching and books.
they do not have to work other than when they want to. they travel, when they want to, they live where they want to they dam wel do what ever they want to..
how nice for them. how unreal most ministries have to be accountable for the job they do.
was Paul?? maybe not but he DID NOT ask for his life style and his needs to be met by people either.
does it cost money to publish a book? sure. does it cost time and accountability and hours and/or travel that may not be good for you to have a ministry large enough to have money donated because they appreciate what YOU do?
yep.
and CES does not have the willingness to do that to please the people enough to be able to give their stuff away.
they have their own thing and keep it that way always have.
no accountability brings HUGE freedom.
they do not serve or do anything that isnt on THEIR time line or wish list.
but ministers of these large churches and minstires that provide free stuff do it is also called a job to get done, they sacrafice time family and hold their self accountable to do it.
what is right and wrong? i do not know.
but the fact CES does not have the amount of support they need to cover the cost of publishing a book speaks very loud, to me it says we do not have enough people we have served or believe in us or our ministry to do that.
but we can fund a great many things like graduate school for one of our ministers , travel when WE want for who we want lots of kids divorce court , insurance , of course WE decide how we spend it and spin the accountability to NO one eles!!!!
so pay for the book already.
the devil doesnt like the truth, it mut be because truth is less appealing than tradition so fewer people will help us.
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year2027
God first
Beloved TrustAndObey and blarney
God loves you my dear friends
I see you two are having fun I love to see a loving gentel debate thanks
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Lone Wolf McQuade and pond
God loves you my dear friends
Lone Wolf McQuade - you do not have to agree with me -- As for "One God & One Lord from CES" I believe they should love you enough to Email you the first copy - but this is me seeing everything spiritual as a personal fellowship one on one
My Time Line on my web page took me more than one year and I still add to it now and then but its free and some despise it and trample on it has it being ridiculous but its my heart's work
air is not free we must breath take action
wisdom we must ask God or Christ for wisdom all elst is worldly wisdom even if on the word of God
research only shows you what the natural men see's but the key is too see it spiritual the deep insight
pond - Paul had the same needs as all of us we are have the same basic needs eat, drink, sleep, breath, and other basic needs but others are wants
Paul was in a ministry before he join Christ he was in the Ministry of sin
why does anything have to be publish?
everybody and everygroup has accountability either to God or the world
yes the devil does not like the truth
The truth is a group or person either worships money or God
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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nyunknown
What are they doing with all the money? Are the TWI transfering all to offshore banks so that when the TWI is no more they can live in paradice in some other country? I am sorry they were not broken under the RICO laws.
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year2027
God first
Beloved nyunknown
God loves you my dear friends
they are getting fat
I wish they give our money back
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Holy Smoke
I agree with Lone Wolf M. There is absolutely nothing wrong with charging for a book -- any kind of book -- that any lay person or clergy puts up the capital to research, edit, do the cover design, print, bind, warehouse, inventory and distribute.
Do you guys have any idea of what kind of $$ it takes to do that?
Yes, Paul had a job. Tentmaker, but he CHOSE not to take anything from the church at Corinth. But he said he sure had a right to take a portion of whatever was collected. Read I Cor. 9. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
Believe me CES ain't getting rich or "fat" off anything and anyone who thinks they are doesn't know what he's talking about. The CEO Dan G. is not even paid a salary. And I have gone to their conferences for like $30 -- cheap! -- and they mail me a full-color magazine bi-monthly for Zero $. Believe me, that magazine costs money to produce and they give it away!
So I don't know where you guys are coming from on this one. Something way back in the windmills of your minds.....
Holy Spirit
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year2027
God first
Beloved Holy Smoke
God loves you my dear friend
the cost is very little if you share your work by the internet the best way
the basic imternet cost $10-50 a month basic web site $20 - 500 a month depending on size
then the is Email the work out
home print a book and in in a fyler form
cost of good printer about $200 - 5,000 - paper $2 - 100 depending on copies ink $70 - 200 laster ink
yes I know but Paul had none of these things and he reach all Asia
Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
there books only reach the people in their group
how money do you think Paul had
The Way said they are not rich either
1 Cor 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
spiritual things we are talking about here
look up the word money it loses it value
look up Jesus Christ said about tithing
Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
the tithe being part of the law
than the is Paul's statement when he got money just for his needs
2 Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
he called it robbed and there are other places
is not written a book doing us service
sure CES and others do things right and they do things wrong too
from the word and knowing what love is
Why become a non tax church if there not money in it
to become non tax church you follower a set of guide lines
if I ever make a manmade church I will never subject it to the goverment to save a little money there will be no money took in just people coming together
I hope you know I not mad at CES I just do not believe its right to sale God's word in any way
and yes you do not have to agree with me
I can be wrong been wrong before but believe I am right and a saw nothing to get me to asked God about it again but I will for the sakes of a few
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dmiller
Let me add my 2 cents in here too.
Using the reasoning I have seen here,
I should expect to walk into a movie theater,
and see the movie for free.
I should be able to go to the local grocery store,
and pay nothing for my groceries.
I should be able to heat my home,
without worrying about paying for the natural gas bill.
Preposterous?? You bet it is.
Some folks *make merchandise* of God's word. I can agree with that.
But (imo) CES hasn't done that.
Whether you agree with their teachings or not -----
they aren't in it for the money.
Their work on One God and One Lord is an EXCELLENT piece of writing.
Docvic's Jesus Christ is not God reads like a kindergarten book, compared to theirs.
Should they charge for the work, time, and effort that went into it??
Certainly.
Just as the actor in the movie expects payment, for the entertainment.
Just as the grocer expects payment, for the food,
and just as the city expects payment --
for the gas that heats my house in the winter-time.
I (for one) have NO PROBLEM with someone asking for money,
in return for something that they have invested time and work into.
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year2027
God first
Beloved David Miller
God loves you y dear friend
Yes join in your two cent but forgive if I do not agree
you said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should expect to walk into a movie theater,
and see the movie for free.
I should be able to go to the local grocery store,
and pay nothing for my groceries.
I should be able to heat my home,
without worrying about paying for the natural gas bill.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
that not going to happen but I see working the word of God as a act of love and I can give you verses like
2 Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
Gen 47:15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.
money fails and money is the root of all evil
while there are more if a person has desided its ok nothing will changed their mind
I used to think its was ok
VPW told us he only took $200.00 a month pay but look how much money he used
but we must not forget the great gift Christ gave for us and the many works written down over the years that have cost no money
And yes a labor is worthly of his labor
John 4:38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.
our reward for labor is life after death with are spiritual rewards that do not rust
But when we work fleshly we get fleshly rewards which sets the labor of love of the ministry as one thing and the labor of fleshly things another thing
In my eyes
I sure it is (Their work on One God and One Lord is an EXCELLENT piece of writing.) but I will never read it because I will not buy the book nor will I ask for it free
but this is me
I am not upset that they and others charged for books I just think its wrong like what Simon the S. and acts wanted to do -- sale the truths God has revealed to a person is wrong in my eyes
What does that mean to me -- the one thing a person might need to believe is out of their reach
this tread was wrote to address all that charged to get rich not just CES
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way
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year2027
God first
Beloved David Miller, Holy Smoke, and others
God loves you all
I hope I have not said something that has hurt anyone
I just believe its wrong
But I do not want it to seem like I am pushing my believe on you
believe as you see best
your walking is your walking
it may not be what God is working on in your lives or he may be using you to get me to think
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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TrustAndObey
Dmiller,
I think you overlook the actual reasoning here. The reasoning is not "everything should be free".. Can you point out anyone saying that? That whatever one does should be free?
No, what we are pointing out is that we either are working for God and helping His children, or we are working for ourselves and the world. It's a choice. Does the movie theatre make movies available to benefit God, or themselves? I'm sure we know that answer. But what about CES? Did that write that book to help others or to help themselves?
If someone needed clothing and you had it to give, would you give it? If someone needed the word of God, and you had it to give, would you make it available? Why is it, that because the secular realm charges money, it's ok to make merchandise of God's things? Why is it ok to tell God's children, you aren't worthy of reading or owning this piece of reasearch unless you pay for it. Who made you God, and the work of your hand, your own? Is not the earth the Lord's and the fullness thereof? And yet we rob God everyday by coveting and hording to ourselves those things that God has only made us stewards of. Not owners, stewards.
If you want to take time to write some book and charge money, fine. But if you at the same time think you are helping God's children by requiring money to know what you've written, you are fooling yourself but not God. It's the heart.. The heart to serve or be served. If we truly have a heart to serve and be as our Lord Jesus, then we will give all that we are for the benefit of others. Yet if you are looking to benefit yourself at the same time, then you have proven only one thing, you really don't trust God with your life. Your sufficiency is no longer God, but rather your works and your man made actions. You are telling God how you want to be paid, rather than allowing God to bless you. For surely you have your reward among men, but blessed by God are those who give and require nothing in return.
Paul chose not receive what the church made available out of the goodness of their hearts. But that was out of the goodness of their hearts, God placed on the members to give. That's relying on God to bless. Which is directly in contrast to you blessing yourself by requiring the reward up front. And as I already said, you have your reward among men, but blessed by God are those who give and require nothing in return for they shall be rewarded by God righteously.
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pond
ministies say that they are doing Gods work.
Contrast that with the fact everyone knows how we buy and sell america's goods such as a movie or our electric etc.
the utility company does not say "WE live the life style we chose, do what we want when we want and have zero accountability to anyone but our own self and those we chose all because God works in me, so give me money, for your electric.
they answer to others and have regulations and MUST follow the norms of society laws etc.
STF says This is what God has me write and because im obeying God you OWE me!
let me say i need my heat when it is below zero even MORE!!! and maybe the guy who pushes the button downtown to have the electric run through the line is also working for GOD!!!!
it is a freaking job.
Im not impressed anymore than I am with anyone eles doing what they need to do to help our community and bless another.
again it is the elitism taught in twi!! and many churches.
what bothers me is they are not accountable. and do not act like all the money goes to write another book, it doesnt they live very well and their families. and you claim they do not get paid??? how about power and control and say so??? it is a payment for many in this old world.
again no accountability.
that is the problem.
how can some not charge for thier materials?
because they have people who are in on their mission that feel a part of it and love the mission and purpose enough to FREELY GIVE to that group enough so there is ENOUGH left over to provide for those who can not or who chose not to.
why? because Jesus is all about freedom and his words should be free.
why cant stf do that? because they do NOT answer to anyone they do not give a rats foot about community or want to be accountable to anyone for thier time or work.
it is their CHOICE.
God can bless thier stuff and make it happen to be able to provide but they CHOSE not to have a community that is large enough to make it happen!!!
hmmm why??? well this post is long enough.
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Holy Smoke
Bless you, Everyone,
I can appreciate the sentiment to not make money off God's work. Lord knows we have seen enough charletons and televangelists who have abused those privileges. So, Roy, I agree that people need to use discernment about where they send their money and for what.
There are also those who simply want to cover their costs of providing something of spiritual help to people. This would be true of any gospel music CD for sale in a store, or any cover charge I've paid to go to a "gospel" concert. No problem! As long as it isn't exhorbitant, I do not begrudge these folks who want to serve God, use their talents and make a living from it.
I am writing from the USA. This culture is one that is different from Paul's and other parts of the world. Like it or leave it -- it's the USA, and the free enterprise system does have its benefits and its pitfalls.
Fact is that some people do not have e-mail and the internet, and even if they do, they want an actual BOOK in their hands to carry around and keep on the shelf. Also STFI has an excellent website with many FREE articles on it. But you can't e-mail or print on an inkjet printer thousands of copies of a 600 page book! That is not an efficient use of funds or equipment.
It can be said that those who copied the scriptures throughout the ages did not make money off it. But a price was paid. Some paid with their lives to produce a book or get a copy of it.
I do not agree that that I. Cor. 9 is talking about "spiritual matters." If you read the context, Paul is talking about the rights of apostles to receive physical comforts and remuneration such as taking a wife along on journeys or getting a meal or two out of the church for his troubles. Read it in the Message (transliteration):
"We who are on missionary assignments for God have a right to decent accommodations, and we have a right to support for us and our families. You don't seem to have raised questions with the other apostles and our Master's brothers and Peter in these matters. So, why me? Is it just Barnabas and I who have to go it alone and pay our own way? Are soldiers self-employed? Are gardeners forbidden to eat vegetables from their own gardens? Don't milkmaids get to drink their fill from the pail?"
This sounds like ol' Paul was pretty irritated, and he did not receive their offerings out of pure obstinance to prove a point.
I think if someone wrote CES and said they could not afford the full price for a book of something, CES would comp it. I know they've had their issues, but I don't see greed as one of them.
Thanks,
Holy Smoke
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year2027
God first
Beloved TrustAndObey, pond, and Holy Smoke
God loves you all my dear friends
TrustAndObey - I see you are debating David Miller and that is great
pond - Jesus is all about freedom and his words should be free.
Holy Smoke - yes "people need to use discernment about where they send their money and for what." I have never cover the cost of what it took me to do a "Time Line" I did it because it was a joy
- So Paul live when things were differ he still had the same basic needs but his wants were differ -- The whole word of God after the fall is about getting back the image of spirit Adam lost
how to live to get it - the coming Christ so we can get it back - what it means to get it back - the list goes on --
we work a job for to "support for us and our families" the way we want to live -- the word of God is like breathing we share it because we want spiritual life after soul death
but let me say I love all of you and you have the right to believe has you see best money has was tithing is a very small thing
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Year 2027,
God loves you and so do I. So please take my comments in all sincerety and friendliness. :)
You said...
Well perhaps you may feel that is the best way. And if you were to put together a piece of work that you wanted to get "out", then I'm sure the Lord would work in your heart to do what was best in the situation for you, where you are moving the Word.But to say the internet is the best way and therefore that's the medium that should always be used because it costs less is a bit unreasonable.
God works in people uniquely because each person's relationship with God is unique. This is why God exhorts us to "run in our own lane." It's dangerous to take what you see as the best way to move the Word and then look at others as though they should be doing it your way so they wouldn't have to charge any money.
There are multiple ways to move the Word; T.V., radio, books, magazines, conferences, and of course internet sites. All of these are great ways to get the message out and some cost more to do than others.
Heck if having everything costing nothing is such the great key to it all being genuine, then why have the internet site? Where is that money going to come from? Are you going to ask people for it? Why not just go out there and move the Word on the streets. After all, that's really the only form of getting the message out that is truly free.
So what about every person who has ever produced a concordance or a Lexicon. Should all that be givena way free too? After all, it will help us understand the Bible better so shouldn't it be free? Shouldn't they want to give it all away? This certainly cannot be the case.
But as for you TrustAndObey, you said...
Are you saying this as though you have evidence that they only did it for themselves? I can't see the motives of their heart and neither can you.
What do I think? I think they wrote it to help people. Why do I think that? Because it sure helped me. After being brain-washed by TWI my whole life, it was One God & One Lord that convinced me it was OK to fellowship, talk to, and pray to my Lord Jesus Christ. What a freedom I found and a new walk I have never experienced before.
"And to think after all those years of research and work, they had the nerve to charge me a whopping $29 for it...Boo hoo....
my life's over, everyone's a counterfeit, everyone's only it for themselves....except me." 
This whole paragraph is dripping with error.So you're saying that because they are charging the money for the books, you know what their heart is?
This is mysticism and a "super-spirituality". Is God just supposed to deliver the money on their doorstep in a nice leather bag? CES isn't telling God how they want to be paid. Isn't God providing that need in people who buy their study materials? Doesn't God work in people's hearts to give to meet that need? God meets needs through other believers.If I were to spend the next 5 years of my life studying a particular subject and committing it to a book and then gave it away for free and then said to God, "man God I'm praying and I'm serving you with all that I am, how come you haven't sent me any money so I can serve you more??
Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Do you feel that you are accomplishing this more than they are? Is John Schoenheit not giving his all? What proof do you have that he's not? The fact that he's charging $29 for his hard work for the past 3-5 years? I would say he is giving his all. His research is excellent and makes TWI's look childish.
It's amazing the fact that because CES charges for their works, you suddenly know all kinds of things about them. You're implying that they wrote the book to help themselves. You're implying that their heart is to be served and not to serve, that they are looking to benefit themselves and that they don't trust God with their lives (all your words). You are making some mighty big assumptions about people who have helped many in the Body of Christ with the Word. You are judgmental. You are bitter.
If you feel that you shouldn't contribute then don't. There's plenty of other places to send your money.
But don't sit there in judgment like you're so spiritual implying if they were really loving people they would slave away in the scriptures their whole lives and then give it all away for free to some bozo who is offended that wisdom which can change your life might actually cost the same as a pizza and a six pack. How many of those have you bought in your life? You're just looking for a free handout and Jesus condemned such things.
Luke 10:1-7
After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.
Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.
Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.'
If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you.
Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
"What do you mean Jesus? Are you saying that they should get wages for preaching the gospel of the kingdom? Well, shouldn't that be all free? When they are offered food and drink, they should refuse it and instead believe God to meet their need".....please. <_<
Come on man, don't you have a little more insight?
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year2027
God first
Beloved Lone Wolf McQuade
God loves you my dear friend
yes I allway take your comments in all sincerety and friendliness because I know you got a great heart
we just do not agree on this matter and guess what there will be other matters we will not agree because we are both human
yes I should say the internet was the best way to keep cost low
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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