Unfit leaders.

[WordWolf]

I'm not asking "how do we define 'grossly unfit'?"

Suppose we're hearing about a leader in a Christian organization.

He could have embezzled the funds, visited prostitutes, raped and murdered his congregation,

(adults, teens or children)

all of the above, or other things I didn't mention.

Once determining he/she is unfit, what should be done?

Forgive him and leave him in office?

Remove him from office?

[Ham]

How to deal with notoriously unfit ministers, let me count the ways..

boiling in oil

tar and feathering..

a two week marathon session of momentus "training", not even a bathroom break..

but seeing that we are supposedly a society under the rule of law, I think if they have committed criminal acts, they should pay in terms of criminal penalties. Sadly, in may cases, this is just not enough.

[rascal]

Frankly, I don`t understand the need for *leaders* fit or otherwise...shrug

[T-Bone]

I chose the one: I'm a Christian, and I say, remove him from office, and possibly press charges. Spare the flock and the community.

And I’ll tell you my reasons. There are passages in the Bible that indicate ministers are held to a higher standard. No where in Scripture does it indicate a minister is above the moral code of the Bible nor the laws of the land. Jesus Christ is referred to as the Chief Shepherd – and since it is His flock and ministers are under His employ I think church government should follow His dictates whenever He addressed applicable church matters in the gospels or written by His apostles in the epistles. I also recall Ephesians mention of how husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her. I don’t think it’s that unrealistic to expect ministers who work under Christ have a long suit in self-sacrifice for the sake of love. The congregation is not there to serve him – he is there to serve them! God doesn’t view anyone as expendable – not even His ministers. The apostle Paul exemplified a true minister’s heart – happy serving the Lord and His people, putting other people’s needs ahead of his own and tried to honor God to the best of his ability both in public and private.

[Billy D]

I would vote "None of the above." What about this:

1. Remove him/her from office.
   
2. If a criminal offense has occurred, pursue with criminal justice system.
   
3. Whether or not #2 applies, pray for all involved (including offender) to be delivered/healed. Pursue restoration of trust/relationships in whatever way appropriate.
   
4. As a community trying to model the love of Christ, gather around offender and encourage him/her to repent of behavior, account/pay restitution to offended parties, and enter into treatment/accountability as necessary.
   
5. If he/she repents and demonstrates change of behavior, do not re-insert into position of leadership! Rather, allow him/her to serve in humble fashion like MOST people!!
   
6. Do not allow back into position of authority unless he/she meets biblical requirements to be a deacon/elder/leader/etc and demonstrates ability to treat others with decency and love of Christ.
   

.....or something like that. My point: whatever is done should demonstrate the love of Christ, and should include repentance, accountability, and some sort of restitution. I don't think that anyone (even the "founder" of a church/ministry/group) should just be forgiven and left in office, thereby given the perfect opportunity to repeat the offense/behavior. Nope, let 'em set up chairs, rake leaves, serve out of the spotlight in humility until they prove that they can play nice and treat others with dignity and love!!

...and rascal, if "leaders" aren't needed, or unbiblical, how do you explain Hebrews 13:7

7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

and Hebrews 13:17

17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

This is an obvious indication that we can and should submit to men as well as to Jesus Christ. Your thoughts?

Thanks all!

BD

[Ham]

7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

I think a lot of us have considered just that.

:)

[RainbowsGirl]

I 200% agree with your posts T-Bone and Billy D...100% each! They were very well stated and based as always!

Thank You WordWolf for beginning these topics up. I think they clarify our purposes and intends and reduces speculations!

[TrustAndObey]

I would vote "None of the above." What about this:

1. Remove him/her from office.
   
2. If a criminal offense has occurred, pursue with criminal justice system.
   
3. Whether or not #2 applies, pray for all involved (including offender) to be delivered/healed. Pursue restoration of trust/relationships in whatever way appropriate.
   
4. As a community trying to model the love of Christ, gather around offender and encourage him/her to repent of behavior, account/pay restitution to offended parties, and enter into treatment/accountability as necessary.
   
5. If he/she repents and demonstrates change of behavior, do not re-insert into position of leadership! Rather, allow him/her to serve in humble fashion like MOST people!!
   
6. Do not allow back into position of authority unless he/she meets biblical requirements to be a deacon/elder/leader/etc and demonstrates ability to treat others with decency and love of Christ.
   

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

This is an obvious indication that we can and should submit to men as well as to Jesus Christ. Your thoughts?

I agree, I wouldn't vote any of them as one is too light and one is too harsh. They should not still be leading, yet they should not be taken to the cleaners. As Billy said, The love of God is what we ought to manifest no matter who we are dealing with. Love your enemies, Those were our Lord's words.. However, these are not our enemies, just misguided believers IMHO.

As for Hebrews 13:17.. A very poorly translated verse used to prove there are those who "have the rule over us" in the body of Christ. However, that is not the case. We are all called to submit to one another, submitting to those who are leading is no more an issue than submitting to any and all who walk with our Father and Lord. However, the words "OBEY" is not the normal Greek word for obey.. Instead it is a word meaning to be persuaded or to trust. And there is no such thing as "submitting to their authority", that was added - 'to their authority' is Not in there..

Someone once better translated it as, "Trust them that are leading among you and submit unto them: for they diligently watch for the sake of your souls..."

[Tzaia]

Dr. Phil says the measure of a man is how he conducts himself behind closed doors, out of the public eye. The problem with the CES ministry is that most people don't see the private and the public very much to be able to make an accurate assessment either way.

One woman wrote on this board glowing remarks about a person who works at CES that she's never met. Her only 'experience' was over the phone and in writing. Based upon that experience, she couldn't understand what his part of the problem at CES was. Well, I've been there, seen it, and experienced what his part of the problem could be. Who's assessment is more valid? Was it she who experienced the public person, or me who experienced the private person?

There is a whole study of the psychology of group dynamics and the notion that participation in a group or situation allows you or perhaps forces you to form a bias that allows behavior that you would find unacceptable in other people or groups of people. They don't call it 'group think' for nothing. The need for belonging overrides objectivity. Things just don't seem all that out-of-line when it's someone with whom you share an affinity.

The point being is that most of you don't have enough relationship with any of these people at CES to make them leaders of anything in your life. This is the reason why delving into the realm of church and making it worldwide is so not the direction to go. These churches and groups are not autonomous. They are required to adhere to an incredibly strict set of standards that in no way can be monitored, by leadership who has no outside accountability. I've read the drafts of ordination and fellowship inclusion documents and I found them to be not unlike what was required to run a twig or be a WOW ambassador. And of course they didn't see it at all.

The reason why we can make Jesus the Lord (leader) in our life is the assurance from God (someone we trust to have our best interest at heart) that Jesus truly is the risen Lord. That, coupled with the writings and witness of the people who had deep personal knowledge of him and how he conducted himself behind closed doors and how they consistently told the same things about his character lends validation to the assurance of God that Jesus deserves our praise, and yes, worship. Giving anyone else that level of access into your life without the benefit of knowing how they are behind closed doors is inappropriate. Anyone demanding that level of access into your life without the benefit of knowing how they are behind closed doors is inappropriate.

[Bumpy]

One might test the waters before blindly “jumping in”. Most of us are pretty experienced by now having jumped through the “rings of fire”. Most here at gs, I think are quite skeptical of any group out there on the horizon who claims to know more than “we” have been through. Religious organizations are as fallible as the people who design them. If there is intent to take advantage of the weak, they will do so. If money is the over-riding objective it will manifest itself in how the “plate is passed”. If you have a “need to belong”, you will always be at the bottom of the food chain. Your circumspect walk with God and Jesus Christ will determine I believe the fate that awaits you.

What to do with the unfit leaders might be best asked in how we wish to pass judgement. Here in this world or at the final day of “Judgement” when all knees shall bow!?

Bump

[Listener]

My view....I have no sympathy at all for any leader proven to have harmed or misled God's children in any way.

He will receive no forgiveness from me, or the Father, or Jesus Christ.....UNTIL he admits to his wrongdoing, repents (permanently changes his behaviour) and sincerely ASKS for forgiveness. And this forgiveness needs to be sought from each individual victim, or publicly if there are a great many victims.

That's the biblical process, as I understand it. Very few of those who have been responsible for these wrongdoings have even ADMITTED, let alone, repented or asked. So, they can rot in their sin and face the Lord to reap their own reward. Obtaining forgiveness is the responsiblity of the sinner and is available when he/she admits to it, repents, and asks for it. THEN we, in the love of God, in Christ Jesus, are to forgive, and accept him/her back into the fellowship of the saints.

Now, it's another matter as to whether that person should be allowed to continue in his/her former position/capacity in the fellowship. I think usually not. If criminal matters are involved, they should face them honestly and accept the consequences.

I'm no biblical scholar by any stretch, but that's the way I see it from the scripture I've read and the example Jesus Christ showed us.

[rascal]

AMEN Listener!!

Repentance, and ASK for forgiveness....something that is shamefully absent from most off shoot and ex twi leaders. I think that is huge symptom of the contamination stemming from old vp`s doctrine.

Edited March 26, 2007 by rascal

[Listener]

Yep, rascal. In all the years I knew vp, I never once heard a sincere apology come from his lips.

But I did hear a lot of reasonings about why I/we believers, were missing the mark. He had a real problem with humility

and could not humble himself if his life depended on it. So instead, he forced others to humble themselves before him.

I think from his earliest years he had an insatiable need to be seen as important in the eyes of others, no matter what the cost was.

And I think that opened the door for all the other evils to grow inside him unabated. I saw a definite, but gradual, change through

the 13 years I knew him.

[caribousam]

Yep, rascal. In all the years I knew vp, I never once heard a sincere apology come from his lips.

But I did hear a lot of reasonings about why I/we believers, were missing the mark. He had a real problem with humility

and could not humble himself if his life depended on it. So instead, he forced others to humble themselves before him.

I think from his earliest years he had an insatiable need to be seen as important in the eyes of others, no matter what the cost was.

And I think that opened the door for all the other evils to grow inside him unabated. I saw a definite, but gradual, change through

the 13 years I knew him.

I never knew VPW personally, and never heard him publically admit to any specific sin or wrongdoing. I did hear VPW call himself someone "who is sometimes a miserable sinner." But it would be nice, refreshing, and helpful if Christian leaders in general would admit their sins and weaknesses. To admit a general sinfulness is good, to admit specifics may be called for at times, though I don't need to know all the gory sinful details of any believer's life...at times messy details do need to come out in the open for the good of all. Also, sometimes in today's climate of instant news and gossip information sometimes has a tendency to be misused and exagerrated.

[rascal]

Sam, I don`t know if you were referring to vp in your comment about instant news and gossip....but if you were ... there are folks here that DID know vp personally. It wasn`t pretty, and his evil wasn`t exaggerated. It wasn`t an occasional slip of an otherwise decent man. His selfishness and bad behavior were noted from an early age.

Wow listener, you saw it first hand....I have to agree with your assessment. I have talked with more than one person who knew him from his days in high school and as a minister. It would seem that he NEVER believed that rules were for him. He always was looking for ways to make what he wanted to do *ok*. He was always doing crazy things to get attention...

I think that was what sent him off on biblical research...he wanted it to be ok to screw like bunnies, smoke like a chimney , and drink like a fish because *all things were lawfull to them which are in Christ*

Well I think the wide swath of destruction he cut through peoples lives...the trail littered with broken souls and dead bodies.... leaves no doubt that he was mistaken and that there are reasons we are told to not commit adultery, to remain sober, to love one another....etc

Edited March 27, 2007 by rascal

[Listener]

Rascal, In the early 70s there were a few times I got to sit under the tree in the courtyard with him...just the two of us.

He could be a regular guy and talk like a good old boy...laugh and joke around...and just have a pleasant talk.

If he trusted you, he would let down his guard and be real. I could speak my mind and have a conversation with him.

But if someone else, like WC, came around, he changed instantly into the MOG and put on the "spiritual boss" mantle.

One these times under the tree with him a WC person walked over to us. vp got up and walked up to the person

and reamed him mercilessly for misaligning some chairs, driving him to tears, then watched them walk away crushed and broken,

then came back and sat down and chuckled at how he had to "teach" these kids how to be spiritually strong. An ACT!! It was an ACT!

He could turn it on and off at will.

The slightest thing could set him off. In later years, I felt like I was always walking on glass around him, wondering what I had to do to

avoid p*****g him off. He was extremely volatile. Very quick to anger. And I can't remember him ever, in his reproofs, pointing

anyone toward Jesus's walk as THE example to follow. It was always vps will that mattered and had to be obeyed.

And woe be to you if you were put in charge of something and didn't perform it as he intended it to be done!! 'Cause that meant you

were "out of fellowship" and weren't listening to God. Because God was telling you what was wrong and you weren't listening!!

What an ego this man had!!

I thank God that I wasn't driven to a heart attack! That man could cause more stress than Custer had at his last stand!!

And then chuckle about it!!

[rascal]

That is stunning listener. I wonder how much of it was escalating alcoholism. Most of the people I know that are, tend to be extremely volitile (sp?) They also seem to think that they are justified in any abuse they chose to mete out...well it was all their fault...they made me mad, or they shouldda done this ...

Doesn`t matter, he wasn`t the end all be all mog, he wasn`t a good leader, he wasn`t even a very good christian....if he was one at all, I have my doubts.

His successors sucked even worse. The fruit of his ministry is not that of a good tree.

I think that his understanding of the scriptures that he imparted to us, might have been detrimental to us spiritually.

Edited March 27, 2007 by rascal

[Listener]

Well, I've heard others' comments about how some of TWI's early teachings were good, and some bad.

Has anybody ever figured out whether the "good" stuff was what he plagerized, and if the bad stuff

was what he came up with? Might be fascinating. My take is that he was a lousy researcher. So, when

he latched onto Wal**r Cu**i*s. he could have someone else do the grunt work that was beneath his status.

I do know that a lot of "his" teachings came from corps and research staff. He just approved or disapproved

the various papers put before him, and the ones that had value he appropriated to himself...very rarely referencing

the original author.

I know alcohol played a big roll in his changing behaviour. Alcoholic or not, I don't know. <_<

I'm not a researcher. All I know for sure is that he lost sight of Jesus Christ being the head of the body/church,

and put himself in that place. I've learned from others how much the scriptures were distorted and even mangled.

So, yeah, he deeply hurt us all by teaching us false/misleading doctrine. His other atrocities were the natural outcome

of a life speeding down the track of self-worship and scriptural denial. Heck, he treated his motorcoach and Harley better

than he treated God's children.

After leaving TWI, it took me 12 years of self-condemnation and soul-searching before I could straighten out my "twisted up brain"

enough to not blame God, the Father, for my problems. I finally figured out who Jesus Christ was, to me, and what

"personal saviour" meant. That's when freedom and forgiveness became real.

So, that's why I joined GS...to vent some things, and lend support if someone wants it...otherwise, I'll just listen and learn.

[rascal]

Listener, that is awsome about understanding who Jesus was to you. You don`t need to be a researcher to find that....I figure all of those guys who were supposedly the spiritual heavies ...their research ability did nothing to help them discover what you did after leaving. Please continue to share your insight, you might just provide that missing piece of the puzzle for someone else.

[Holy Smoke]

I say.... bring out the fluffy pillows and poke him mercilessly!

Seriously, not sure if ya'll are talking about JS, JL or MG -- or just any other pastor / elder / preacher who has reeaally messed up. But what I wish were on the poll were this option:

* Forgive him, and remove him.

We can forgive people yet still hold them accountable for their actions. Consequences should match the severity of the offense. Trust and forgiveness are 2 different things.

Matt. 18: 15-17 is the model, even for leaders. I Tim. 5:19-20 calls for public rebuke.

[WordWolf]

I say.... bring out the fluffy pillows and poke him mercilessly!

Seriously, not sure if ya'll are talking about JS, JL or MG -- or just any other pastor / elder / preacher who has reeaally messed up.

Both.

Why do the usual suspects get special treatment?

But what I wish were on the poll were this option:

* Forgive him, and remove him.

We can forgive people yet still hold them accountable for their actions. Consequences should match the severity of the offense. Trust and forgiveness are 2 different things.

Matt. 18: 15-17 is the model, even for leaders. I Tim. 5:19-20 calls for public rebuke.

The options for removing him from office allowed for forgiveness once removing him.

I didn't have infinite space on each option.

So far, nobody's actually come forth-even with the anoymity of a poll-

and said "leave them in office."

Looks like rhetoric looks holy, but when it comes down to the practical aspects,

very few would actually leave them in office once it's known a leader's incompetent.

[Billy D]

Looks like rhetoric looks holy, but when it comes down to the practical aspects,

very few would actually leave them in office once it's known a leader's incompetent.

Just curious - what do you mean by "looks like rhetoric looks holy?" I'm not following you.

Thanks!

[WordWolf]

Just curious - what do you mean by "looks like rhetoric looks holy?" I'm not following you.

Thanks!

I contrasted with the rest of the sentence,

that people wouldn't leave an obviously-incompetent leader in office.

I got the idea of this thread after lots of posts where one or two people were

saying that it didn't matter how much incompetence, how much being

asleep-at-the-switch, how much cluelessness until a situation exploded,

we see a leader demonstrate,

that God Almighty would want us to leave that person in office,

and render them above criticism.

In short, that God advocates we approach even blatant incompetence with,

at worst, a flat announcement of

"bend over, here it comes again."

You just take whatever a leader dishes out, no matter how blatantly ungodly,

and leave him in office, no matter how corrupt, slothful, or moronic he is.

Seems that was not only the minority opinion,

we didn't even have a single anonymous vote advocating that position-

not even from the one or two posters who advocated it!

That means something, but it could be any of several things.

[Billy D]

I contrasted with the rest of the sentence,

that people wouldn't leave an obviously-incompetent leader in office.

I got the idea of this thread after lots of posts where one or two people were

saying that it didn't matter how much incompetence, how much being

asleep-at-the-switch, how much cluelessness until a situation exploded,

we see a leader demonstrate,

that God Almighty would want us to leave that person in office,

and render them above criticism.

In short, that God advocates we approach even blatant incompetence with,

at worst, a flat announcement of

"bend over, here it comes again."

You just take whatever a leader dishes out, no matter how blatantly ungodly,

and leave him in office, no matter how corrupt, slothful, or moronic he is.

Seems that was not only the minority opinion,

we didn't even have a single anonymous vote advocating that position-

not even from the one or two posters who advocated it!

That means something, but it could be any of several things.

I haven't seen any posts advocating that one should leave a leader in place regardless of his/her behavior, though l admit that I haven't been able to keep up with every post on every thread. Thus my confusion. Thanks for the clarification!

Did anyone who made a "leader should be left in office" remark provide any scriptural backup? Seems to me that scripture actually teaches the opposite - that "qualification" for leadership/eldership calls one to higher scrutiny/expectations, and failure to meet those expectations means you're out until you can prove that you're worthy! (in a nutshell, of course)

Thanks again!

[Ham]

You just take whatever a leader dishes out, no matter how blatantly ungodly,

and leave him in office, no matter how corrupt, slothful, or moronic he is.

That was the strategy of the BOD at twi, was it not?

Sad thing for CES, you are stuck with em. Can't vote them out.. at least three on top.

Those who brought you "unique" mixture of personal prophecy and momentus are still calling the shots.

If you can't fire incompetence, about the only remedy you'd have would be to walk away, and find another gig..