The Indian that was healed on the train by VP.

[lindyhopper]

I was perusing through links a couple of weeks ago from a link in a doctrinal thread and came across some writings that sounded similar to some of the things VPW taught and I came across a story of a man this minister (the writer) had healed.

Wouldn't you know it, but this story sounded remarkably like the one of the guy VP said he healed in India on the train. The one where he said something like, "I don't believe in your jesus, but I believe you can heal me." All my TWI books are in storage and my memory is a little fuzzy, so if any of you could relay the original story here, I will look for that link again.

At the time I was thinking to myself, "Holy crap, even this story was stolen."

I'll try and find it, but any of you have any other insight into this?

[shortfuse]

I was perusing through links a couple of weeks ago from a link in a doctrinal thread and came across some writings that sounded similar to some of the things VPW taught and I came across a story of a man this minister (the writer) had healed.

Wouldn't you know it, but this story sounded remarkably like the one of the guy VP said he healed in India on the train. The one where he said something like, "I don't believe in your jesus, but I believe you can heal me." All my TWI books are in storage and my memory is a little fuzzy, so if any of you could relay the original story here, I will look for that link again.

At the time I was thinking to myself, "Holy crap, even this story was stolen."

I'll try and find it, but any of you have any other insight into this?

Probably can be found in the PFAL book and maybe Mrs. VPW's book.

[lindyhopper]

That's what I figgered, but they are all somewhere in a box in storage. I guess there wasn't much to the story, other than a man on VP's train in India wanting VPW to heal him, but he says "I don't believe in your Jesus, but I believe you can heal me." He heals him in the name of JC yadda yadda and the train begins to pull off, and VP yelles something to the guy.

Is that the gist?

I am having a hard time finding that link. I'll keep at it.

Thought it was here, but no. There are some online books though for your reading.

[WordWolf]

Here's what I know.

HCW has posted that he's seen photos from the Jubbulpore incident,

and Mrs W herself pointed out that guy. HCW has said he's seen 2 photos,

one with the arm seemingly injured and useless, one with the arm raised, seemingly

healthy and ready for normal use.

As to what Mrs W knows, we can't ask her now. As to what HCW knows,

you will have to ask him. Please note that he has appeared a bit sensitive on

discussing the subject of what the photos show, and what they mean, at one

point. (He may or may not be sensitive on the subject now.) So, I would phrase

my questions a bit carefully.

Now, even if the account HCW was given was correct in every particular,

(that's the man, that's the healing, vpw performed the healing),

it still contradicts vpw's account of the incident, since vpw's account, if

photographed, would require a photographer snapping pictures right next

to vpw, who just happened to snap those right at that moment, and managed

not to get thrown off the back of a train (presuming both are allowed to STAND

on the back of a moving train, movies notwithstanding) while NEITHER hand is

used for support, since they're on the camera.

vpw's account was that he was on the back of the train, and had this exchange

and the prayer seconds before the train pulled out,

and the healing happened just as the engine engaged,

so that the arm was now instantly healed and raised while vpw was pulling

away in the train, making his parting comment.

Oh, so cinematic. Someone mentioned that a scene in the film

"Young Mr Lincoln" looks EXACTLY like this one.

Beyond that, I can't say.

Was there an actual healing under all the bs, less cinematic?

Did Mrs W see a healing there when it happened?

Did the pictures show exactly that?

Maybe.

And unless someone knows more (they saw the pictures, they were there),

that's as far as they can honestly say.

[TheHighWay]

Good topic, lindyhopper...

I'm pretty sure you've got the gist of the story right... guy saw doc vic, heard he was a man of god, asked for a healing. Vic asked him if he believed God could heal him and the man said, "Yes, but I don't believe in your Jesus". VP asked him again if he believed God could heal him... same answer. If I'm not mistaken, the way it is told in the class is that this exchange happened three times. And then VP commanded the guys arm be healed in the name of Jesus Christ, and told him to raise it. He did. And then Doc said something like, "Thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ."

I guess I had just relegated this and every other incident accounted in PFAL as just so much BS or an anecdote stolen from another teacher. (I'm not saying I don't believe in miracles I'm just saying I no longer believe this particular source.)

THW

Edited March 20, 2007 by TheHighWay

[coolchef]

i believe in santa clause more than i believe in ol vic

could it have happened? sure

did it?

i don't know

[lindyhopper]

...not what I was thinking of but there was a story from Eli Stanley Jones (the "sand in the machinery of life" guy and a Methodist missionary to India in the first few decades of the 20th century) in which he said something like a woman told him she did not have faith of her own but she had faith in his faith. Something to that effect.

Not what I was thinking of but sort of similar...

I'll keep looking.

Thanks WW, maybe HCW will chime in. You would think, though, that if there was documented photos of the actual incident that they would have been blown up on one of the PFAL chart boards. I can't imagine VPW keeping something like that quite.

[polar bear]

Here's my two cents. I question this healing too.

In a way though it doesn't matter whether or not VP healed the guy to me.

Doesn't the word say if you want to do a good work do it secretly.

Just the fact he had the balls to brag about what he did tells me he was a big show off. Actually he did put on a good show didn't he.

A good tap dancer, razzle dazzle and all that jazz.

[waysider]

VPW and his "crew" were not only fond of borrowing doctrinal material but also were known to borrow anecdotal material as well. Consider,if you will, the anecdote of teaching to the trees. This one was "borrowed" from Billy Graham. There are others as well that have been documented to have been borrowed. It would not suprise me a bit to find this instance in the writings of E.S. Jones, since he spent so much time in India himself. It also seems like somewhat of a modern day reenactment of Mark 3:1-5.

I believe VPWs' recounting of this story was in PFAL session one and also in the corresponding section of the PFAL book. In the opening session of the advanced class, he(VPW) taught a similar story about a man looking for his wife who was arriving on a train.He used this one to teach word of knowledge. He may have borrowed these from Rufus Mosely or Glenn Clarke or any one of the many others whose names he mentioned in his teachings.

Whether it's true or not, what puzzles me is this: Here is this guy who says he doesn't believe in Jesus who gets the healing while we, on the other hand, were supposed to SIT endlessly, go to endless meetings, learn scripture after scripture after scripture and so on in order to be considered worthy of Gods' blessings in our lives and most of us saw zip in the way of results. OOPS! I just realized he was using this to sell us on the validity of that whacky "law of believing".

What was I thinking?

[Ham]

I don't know about the book, but in the class vp kinda muttered under his breath that "MANY were delivered".

Then he says he was given the key to the city.

Is there any REAL historical documentation to verify this?

I think vp would have claimed he had a meeting with Ghandi if it served his own interests..

Edited March 21, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[WordWolf]

Orange Book,

pg-29-31.

=========

Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness

of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady

who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses

which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the

miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore,

hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus,

wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special

powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day. They felt that if I just laid

my hands on them, they too would be delivered. Just before the train on which we were travelling moved

out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side,

ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately

added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus."

What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God

will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him,

"Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in

your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ.

When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both

of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little,

he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said,

"Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ."

At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master

who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament

in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment

to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event

that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were

Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India,

the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's

Word.

===============

[WordWolf]

Orange Book,

pg-29-31.

=========

"Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness

of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady

who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses

which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the

miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore,

hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus,

wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special

powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day."

So,

we have vpw himself praying for the woman, and she was delivered.

Within 24 hours, there was a crowd looking for healing.

And they were non-believers, Hindus, who all just happened to hear about this,

and believed it such that they showed up in a crowd.

Could have happened.

Presuming he prayed and she was delivered.

"They felt that if I just laid my hands on them, they too would be delivered."

I'm unsure of Hindu beliefs in India enough to know if this is typical.

"Just before the train on which we were traveling moved

out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side,

ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately

added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus." "

Supposing this is true,

there was a crowd, and the majority of the people would have been low-caste.

The high-caste guy was willing to shove his way through a crowd of low-caste people,

and thus being in physical contact with them, to shove through them and get to the

front of the group, on the chance that this guy could help him.

Forgive me, I can't picture this guy having the strength to shove through-unless he could

use both arms.

"What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God

will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him,

"Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in

your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ.

When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both

of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little,

he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said,

"Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ." "

So, God was fine with this healing. And it was instant. And vpw was preaching from the back of

the train. And allowed to stand there-WITH A CROWD SURROUNDING THE BACK OF THE TRAIN-

while the train prepared to move. And he was allowed to be in physical contact with someone

on the ground as the train is moving forward.

I just don't think the trains in India are run that badly.

It's too cinematic.

The only thing we're missing is the train whistle and sunlight breaking out from the clouds.

"At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master

who wanted to come and meet the man of God. He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament

in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment

to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event

that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were

Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India,

the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's

Word. "

And a guy in the train was able to see what happened completely in the back of the train, with his own

eyes.

And had influence in ALL OF INDIA.

And gave vpw a standing invitation to come minister and teach in ALL OF INDIA.

And gave him the keys to New Delhi based entirely on an incident NOT in New Delhi.

And vpw remembered all this, but never followed up in India despite having an open door.

This sounds scripted to me. And not scripted WELL, either.

The only hitch is the existence of some photos I've never seen,

which depict an incident I've never heard described well.

Edited March 21, 2007 by WordWolf

[Eagle]

I doubt very much that a guy, who denies Jesus while asking for healing from God who demands a mediator named Jesus, would get healed by God in the Name of Jesus. If he denies the name, he denies the healing FROM God.

Scripture seems to go against that.

The story seems fabricated.

[Sushi]

Deleted because of a poorly constructed paragraph of Ole Doc Vic's.....

Edited March 22, 2007 by Sushi

[now I see]

There is a believer named Sangat Baines from the 17th Corps that is working many miracles in India like the one in the jubbapour story, he seems to be doing some great things. Has anyone here got some knowledge on what he's doing or have read any of his booklets on healing or other subjects?

[FullCircle]

I dunno. I wouldn't pay the 120. to find out. Been there, done that.

http://cffm.org/doc/mwgp_box.shtml

[now I see]

Wow, I didn't know it was associated with CFF, I wonder if any GSers have checked it out?

[coolchef]

the whole damned thing was of course a bald faced lie

[FullCircle]

It's pretty hard to check out what happened in another country. First TWI claimed miracles and wonders in India then other off shoot ministries were claiming miracles and great believing from people in other countries and how meek and humble people were to 'receive the word' and blah blah and all we have recounting these stories is the leadership of such said groups.

I had checked out once via google and other articles about VP's trip to India. I had read he caused a near riot because he wasn't just preaching, and supposedly was still associated with the church he pastored in then, because he was talking publicly about politics and how it was affecting India or would affect India or something like that. I am sure if anyone wanted to badly enough, they could dig up enough info on it. All I knew was the accounts I read differed greatly from VP telling it.

As for the guy getting healed who didn't believe in Jesus, that was just to demonstrate that the law of believing works regardless if you're a believer or not, which is a boomerang teaching cause why bother sitting through classes and stringing chairs if you just have to believe it will happen? Oh that is right, you won't get your noise maker at the 'bema.'

I sincerely doubt it happened, the guy getting healed in India. The stories I read, like I said were very much in conflict with the spin VP had. I really don't care either. I used to be bothered by and felt guilty by Pastors or Evangelists who would go to other countries and rave about great the people are there and how they can believe and how miracles are performed THERE because of it. We all suck in the USA. I don't fall for that crap anymore. Make a video take and have objective people there filming it and the miracles then let's take a looksie at it. Until then, for me, it is all heresay and it only serves to make the heads of the ministry, any ministry look great.

[TheInvisibleDan]

Sorry I'm late.

I happened to have in my cd archives a rare photograph of

the event in question.

[excathedra]

danny what IS that ?????

--

full circle

Oh that is right, you won't get your noise maker at the 'bema.'

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Listener]

Dan, that picture truly verifies vp's story......a finely crafted CARTOON!!!

[ex10]

Sangat was in the 10th corps, not the 17th, and he is not associated with CFF at all, except he spoke at some of their meetings. His church has grown independently of TWI or any of its offshoots.

Sangat evidently has a pretty powerful gift for healing, according to the reports I've heard.

[FullCircle]

Is then the page to CFF from the link I posted (which I found at Google when I put Sangat's name in it) misleading when they claim him to be one of their teachers in their Power of God Series? I think the particular series they claim him as a teacher has to do with healing.

[ex10]

Sangat has taught his own class for years, as well as put his teachings in manuscript form for anybody who wants them. He did do some teachings for CFF, because they asked him to. But as far as being "affiliated" with them, he is "affiliated" with anybody who wants him to teach. Doesn't really matter who they are.