I feel like I shared too much personal information, but I am going to let it stand.
My heart goes out to anyone who does suffer and experience depression. Winston Churchill did, Abraham Lincoln did, many people do. It does not lessen the worth or spirituality of anyone who has it. I guess that is what I wanted to say along with I don't believe it's devil possession.
I just wish people would shut the hell up about things they don't know. I mean people who claim to be leaders of God's people. They wouldn't stand for a psychiatristic teaching the bible, why are bible people pretending to know all about the mental health field? I thought it then and think it now that how TWI (and other groups) thinking they can specialize in anything is very dangerous. I wouldn't go to my mechanic to have a tooth removed and I wouldn't go to my local grocer for a pap smear. The bible folks need to stay in their own turf.
We were told we were possessed or oppressed and we came to believe it. Then someone came to us to heal us and cast it out, quote unquote. We may have had experience a day or two or even months of relative ease then it was back. Did the spirit come back? No, it did not because it was never there. The power of suggestion wore off and the real issues causing the depression or panic or anxiety rose to the surface AGAIN because the real issues that caused our symptoms were still there and were never removed.
So either it was chemical inbalance or unresolved issues buried deep in the back of our minds that were triggered by some event outside of it that made it come back. It will continue to come back until we got the true help we needed.
TWI never got me delivered. The PFAL class never got me delivered. The Advanced Class never got me delivered. All my Bible reading, praying in my understanding and speaking in tongues never got me delivered.
Leaving TWI was my first step in deliverance cause now I had options to get help. Psychotherapy I went. My symptoms were all repressed anger and fear and reliving the abuse I had suffered as a child. The memories and feelings never went away and in short, I had just stuffed it into the most inner recesses of my being. TWI was like manure mixed with cement that kept it covered because of blah blah and positive and not looking at the past and feelings were bad and blah blah blah. TWI kept me UNWHOLE because the doctrines of TWI does not serve the WHOLE person but rather the orgainzition itself.
My niece suffered at the hands of an Assembly of God pastor who determined she was possessed and tried to exorcise her in front of the congregation. She was a teenager for cripes sake and teenage problems. He caused more problems and harm then he did good and she was NOT a willing partner so she felt NO obligation to go along and believe that she was possessed and play the part. Needless to say nothing was cast out because nothing was there to cast out and her unwillingness to go along with it made him look like a fool and he banned her from the church.
The episodes of abuse that take place in the name of Jesus Christ leave me flabberghasted. The only place I would think devil spirits live is in the minds of these men who try to mock those 'weaker' than them and exploit people to make themselves look like some thing they are not...ie men of God.
I feel like I shared too much personal information, but I am going to let it stand.
My heart goes out to anyone who does suffer and experience depression. Winston Churchill did, Abraham Lincoln did, many people do. It does not lessen the worth or spirituality of anyone who has it. I guess that is what I wanted to say along with I don't believe it's devil possession.
I just wish people would shut the hell up about things they don't know. I mean people who claim to be leaders of God's people. They wouldn't stand for a psychiatristic teaching the bible, why are bible people pretending to know all about the mental health field? I thought it then and think it now that how TWI (and other groups) thinking they can specialize in anything is very dangerous. I wouldn't go to my mechanic to have a tooth removed and I wouldn't go to my local grocer for a pap smear. The bible folks need to stay in their own turf.
What bothers me most about TS's or anyone else's teaching on how devil spirit possession might cause some cases of mental illness is, no matter how well intentioned the leader is, instead of hearing, "possession possibly causes some depression," there will be people who hear, "possession probably causes depression." People who are depressed will not seek help because of the shame, and the stigma attached. People who aren't depressed will shun or be afraid of the depressed person. I've heard people say, "If they were doing 'The Word' they wouldn't have this mental illness." I've heard people say, "There's nothing wrong with me! I'm not depressed! Do I look possessed to you?"
I dunno. Maybe these teachings help some people. Maybe some people find comfort in them. But personally, I've seen a whole lot more damage done than good.
I was thinking the same thing WB (applause) after reading FC's post.
FC, applause and commendations to you; you deserve it. :) I am not stating that sarcastically at all.
I feel like I shared too much personal information, but I am going to let it stand.
I think most of us understand that feeling; but it is the only way people will learn about this kind of stuff. My adage these days is, "Feel the fear and do it anyway." ;))
I was on the phone this afternoon discussing this thread. I mentioned that I had the thought to list some books that I have found helpful, and the other person thought that might be a good idea. I realize some people are readers and some aren't.
Bibliotherapy has been a factor in helping me gain wellness.
I'm sure other folks have read/studied books that have helped them as well.
For what it's worth, here are some books that I have found helpful:
Change Your Brain, Change Your Life by Daniel Amen
(Excellent read imo, helpful, easy to understand, practical. Dr. Amen divides the brain into 6(?) regions and list problems/case studies that stem from these regions. Each region then has a chapter on "prescriptions" to help in those problem areas. He also has pictures of brain scans for different problems. Explains some about how changing neural patterning can change biology.)
Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert
(Another top of list book on explaining receptors/lignans/neurotransmitters and how the biology of emotions works. Explains some about how changing neural patterning can change biology. Learn about her story as a woman scientist in the 60's at the NIH. Pert helped term the word psychoneuroimmunology and helped discover the opiate receptor.)
The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns
(Thick book, but filled with journaling exercises to help change cognitive patterns. Good list of pharmaceuticals and side effects of the same for mental illnesses.)
Women's Moods by Sichel and Driscoll
(Not an easy book to read but very in depth. Covers a woman's cycle from the onset of menses through menopause and beyond. Many case studies. List helpful suggestions for self care. I called and talked with the one of the authors who has a clinic in Maryland.)
Total Relaxation by John Harvey
(Helps to identify distorted thoughts and how to change them. Comes with a cd with 4 10 to 20 minute meditation exercises.)
The Anatomy of an Illness and Head First both by Norman Cousins
(Both of these are at the top of my list. Explains what it is like to suffer with chronic illness and the stigma attached with it. Goes into mind/body medicine, how the placebo effect works, how the body is its own pharmacy, the importance of the doctor/patient relationship. Learn Norman Cousins own struggles and what he applied to overcome.)
The Heartmath Solution by Doc Childres
(Excellent, excellent, excellent. :) Explains how the brain within the heart communicates with our bodies. Describes exercises to be in touch with one's emotional state and how to change that, how to reach neutral without suppression. Goes into electormagnetic field communications. Cutting edge research in this field.)
New Hope for People with Bipolar Disorder by Fawcett, Golden, and Rosenfeld
(I've referred to this one a lot over the past 6 years. Case studies of well known people who have suffered mental illness and how they manage(d) their lives. Explains what it is like for a relative who does NOT suffer with mental illness copes with a family member who does. Covers much about stigma and how to handle it.)
Healing Back Pain By John Sarno
(This may sound like it has no connection to mental illness, but it does. It goes into how suppressed emotion can cause physical symptoms/illnesses. Spring boarding from this book, I was able to rid spasms of a herniated disc and it led me into insight regarding other illnesses I was dealing with.)
The Natural Medicine Guide to Bipolar Disorder by Stephanie Marohn
(Somewhat helpful in explaining avenues outside accepted medical protocols that have helped some people with bipolar. Good for possibility thinking.)
The Heart's Code by Paul Pearsall
(About the role cellular memory plays in health.)
The Healing Power of the Christian Mind by William Backus
(Goes into mind/body medicine from a Christian perspective.)
Margin by Richard Swenson
(Excellent read on how modern lifestyle are exhausting people resulting in many illnesses. Written from a biblical perspective, yet unconventional. Practical keys. Great bibliography.)
Time Management from the Inside Out
(Not about depression, but takes into account mental/physical illness in time management.)
Cry of the Soul by Allender and Longman
(Describes how our emotions are given from God for a reason. Why it is important to hear them and not just brush them off.)
Twi has no business advising people on mental health problems or physical problems...hell, they're not even qualified to advise people on spiritual matters!
In reality, the leaders of twi are loaded with mental problems of their own.
Kind of a interesting thread to me, since I have et 3 people in the last few years who have this condition, not sure how to word this..
my recent encounter at work, lost her father to this condition...I think I will use it since it fits her father..He spent 9 month's with top notch Psychiatric Professors here at Duke,3 concluded that there was absolutely no evidence of any chemical imbalances found in their years of practice and studies..he refused medication based on that..wow
What bothers me most about TS's or anyone else's teaching on how devil spirit possession might cause some cases of mental illness is, no matter how well intentioned the leader is, instead of hearing, "possession possibly causes some depression," there will be people who hear, "possession probably causes depression." People who are depressed will not seek help because of the shame, and the stigma attached. People who aren't depressed will shun or be afraid of the depressed person. I've heard people say, "If they were doing 'The Word' they wouldn't have this mental illness." I've heard people say, "There's nothing wrong with me! I'm not depressed! Do I look possessed to you?"
I dunno. Maybe these teachings help some people. Maybe some people find comfort in them. But personally, I've seen a whole lot more damage done than good.
I'm gonna think out loud here and ramble again. These are just some thoughts...no final judgments.
I agree that some people (maybe even many) come to the conclusion you have mentioned Vegan.
Us people here on this here board were all influenced deeply by TWI? I think I am correct in stating that? Possibly, we take that background and transfer it onto others? I know I have done it and still do at times. Someone who has not experienced TWI/religiously abusive spiritually suspicious programming (if you will) may see this option differently? I'm not being naive, but am trying to think outside my TWI spirtiually suspicious trained thinking.
I know I stated this earlier, but I think much is wrapped up in the way a "solution" is presented.
I tried lots of medical approaches for healing in various areas, approaches that should have worked but didn't. A similar stigma applies. Since something didn't work (but should have), some people (even medical folks) concluded it was "all in my head." But the concept wasn't presented to me without some stigma attached. It wasn't "what" was said necessarily, but how it was said. Sometimes the answer from a doc was, we can't find anything wrong with you or we don't know why you don't respond to treatment.
Years later I learned that indeed, some of my physical illnesses were directly related to "all in my head." But because this concept (psychsomatic illness) was explained to me intelligently and with respect ( the "solution" presentation), I was able to investigate it without fear of stigma.
Okay, done with my ramble. Maybe it made some sense? And maybe not...won't be the first time. Thanks to anyone who tries to understand it.
Sometimes the individual really doesn't fit into any of the axis of the DSM or any other test or experience.
That does not make a diagnosis of 'the client exhibits symptoms but nothing founded'
And often as the doctors search and search for a name, a reason to prescribe and there does usually have to be valid title to give drugs, they miss it for all their looking.
Additionally, the professionals often forget to ask the person.
PTSD, for instance, comes across as so many differant 'symptoms' as to be confused for any or all of them.
Sometimes, also, it has to be caught in it's cycle. A manic depressive, for example, or bipolar, depending on which professional is using which term, cycles and if s/he is in a manic cycle, they'll seem productive, promising, cooperative. This might bring about a diagnosis of 'nothing significant to report'.
Then maybe tomorrow, or next week, they'll hit the depressive cycle and they might not be able to get out of bed long enough to be assessed again.
Or worse, the client has come to be familiar with their own cycles and have learned to accept what is and doesn't believe anyone will help anyway (noone has before) and they just function until it progresses into a mess that might have been prevented.
Funds and services being what they are it's most difficult to get a proper diagnosis.
But this thread is about twi and treatment or lack thereof huh? It's so easy to label and toss out the depression reason for disobediance. And since leaders of religious organizations are "capable and able" to counsel their flocks, they can get away with it.
Blame is high on the list of things that also keep the person from seeking help that is trained and experienced as well. It's their fault, they are bringing it on themselves, they aren't working hard enough, they aren't listening....blah blah.
I was thinking the same thing WB (applause) after reading FC's post.
FC, applause and commendations to you; you deserve it. :)
Upon further thought other folks deserve applause and commendations too: anyone who has suffered/overcome/managed or is suffering/currently in the midst of the fight.
Here is a line of applause since i can't do a round of applause.
btw: Tzaiza, insightful and hopeful post back on #47... but no one ever mentioned it so I thought I would here.
Listener, post traumatic stress disorder. (Last time I looked I'm not Shellon , but thought I'd go ahead and give you an answer. Shellon can throw puters mators at me next time in chat. shell )
My apologies Listener, it's a habit I'm developing, that isn't a good one, of shortening all the psychological stuff.
And DSM IV is Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the psych world babble bible and diagnosing criteria manual. I wouldn't know how to be with out it now, and I'm not practicing yet.
I am a Nurse Practitioner in Psychiatry (NPP per my user name) and I can certify that depression is extraordinarily complex, and very hard to treat. I work in a state hospital for inmates, many of whom are doing life without parole, and yet I seldom see true depression in this population. I mean a handful of cases in 3 years. Medicine helps some folks, for many others it does nothing. We don't know why. We don't even really know what depression is. The side effects of meds can be life-destroying-like anorgasmia, for one. I have come to believe that there are as many different kinds of depression as there are depressed people. A few need more faith, many need to stop being condemned about their faith. Some need to excercise. Some need to stop excercising so much. Some need a better diet, some need to eat a little candy once in awhile. Some need a partner, some need a divorce. Some need an advanced degree to fulfill their call in this life. Some need to do their laundry and clean their house, literally and figuratively. Some need to forgive somebody, some need to get mad at somebody. As someone has said ,if the human mind were so simple we could understand it, we would be too simple to understand it. My take on a complex phenomena. When a new patient walks in the door, I always get a sinking feeling when depression is the main issue. I know that it is very unlikely that I'll see a dramatic improvement, especially if its a long-standing problem. I do thank twi for teaching me that the joy of the Lord is my strength. I had never heard it at the presbyterian church I grew up in...its gotten me through some very tough times.
so what if it is all in your "head" the head is indeed quite an important baody part isnt it?
Pond, I love how you cut right to the heart of the matter so many times. You really have a knack for that, and I think it's great.
mdsnpp and Shell, execellent points.
Shell, I think you know I think the world of ya, but I must say that those instructors and docs and journals are trying to give you another bad habit besides acronyms. Please, please, please don't call people by their disease names. A person with bipolar is so much more than "a bipolar."
I know you know that. It's a little bit of medicalese shorthand that creeps in and is subtly demeaning to patients/clients.
As for the original topic, I haven't had much time lately to post, so I've avoided posting in this thread because I don't want to discuss something so sensitive in a hurry. That's still the case, but I think everyone's doing a bang-up job without me!
Linda, I understand your compassion, but disagree that Shellon was calling the people the abbreviations. I've reread her post and it looks like she is abbreviating the disease, not the people, imo.
Waterbuffalo, thank you but Linda was correct. What I should have said was an individual with a diagnosis of manic depression.... and so on, or one diagnosed with, etc.
:)
The way I worded it put the label on the person rather than the person with the illness needing help and treatment.
Thanks for being gracious, Shell. I knew you'd get it immediately. I also know that anyone in the mental health or other medical fields are constantly bombarded with the other way of expressing illnesses.
Even though just about every day in my job as a medical editor I change things like "the diabetic" to "the patient with diabetes," and even though I've been in my field almost 20 years, it still takes a conscious effort to get it right because I so often hear it bass-ackwards.
I am a Nurse Practitioner in Psychiatry (NPP per my user name) and I can certify that depression is extraordinarily complex, and very hard to treat. I work in a state hospital for inmates, many of whom are doing life without parole, and yet I seldom see true depression in this population. I mean a handful of cases in 3 years. Medicine helps some folks, for many others it does nothing. We don't know why. We don't even really know what depression is. The side effects of meds can be life-destroying-like anorgasmia, for one. I have come to believe that there are as many different kinds of depression as there are depressed people. A few need more faith, many need to stop being condemned about their faith. Some need to excercise. Some need to stop excercising so much. Some need a better diet, some need to eat a little candy once in awhile. Some need a partner, some need a divorce. Some need an advanced degree to fulfill their call in this life. Some need to do their laundry and clean their house, literally and figuratively. Some need to forgive somebody, some need to get mad at somebody. As someone has said ,if the human mind were so simple we could understand it, we would be too simple to understand it. My take on a complex phenomena. When a new patient walks in the door, I always get a sinking feeling when depression is the main issue. I know that it is very unlikely that I'll see a dramatic improvement, especially if its a long-standing problem. I do thank twi for teaching me that the joy of the Lord is my strength. I had never heard it at the presbyterian church I grew up in...its gotten me through some very tough times.
what a great post mdsnpp
(sorry i haven't read most of the posts)
but i do wonder what you mean by "the joy of the lord is your strength"
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Ham
I saw an old National Geographic special once.. it was about some tribe in the Amazon.. actually two tribes. There were two dueling witchdoctors. The one claimed to put "spirits" in the other one..
Ham
No joke.. I thought at the time: "where have I seen THIS before.." hey, der ministry didn't just limit the possibility to humans. Why, even poor animals could get possessed. I remember loy's l
Ham
Maybe the chicken in suspect started doing a line dance or something. Possessed with the spurt of Swa-tra-tra..
FullCircle
I feel like I shared too much personal information, but I am going to let it stand.
My heart goes out to anyone who does suffer and experience depression. Winston Churchill did, Abraham Lincoln did, many people do. It does not lessen the worth or spirituality of anyone who has it. I guess that is what I wanted to say along with I don't believe it's devil possession.
I just wish people would shut the hell up about things they don't know. I mean people who claim to be leaders of God's people. They wouldn't stand for a psychiatristic teaching the bible, why are bible people pretending to know all about the mental health field? I thought it then and think it now that how TWI (and other groups) thinking they can specialize in anything is very dangerous. I wouldn't go to my mechanic to have a tooth removed and I wouldn't go to my local grocer for a pap smear. The bible folks need to stay in their own turf.
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oenophile
now im gonna take the big sleep! My Tar Heels are in the process of losing to Georgetown. Goodbye cruel world.
Make that they lost.
Oh, wait smoking a good cigar. There is something to live for after all.
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waterbuffalo
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oenophile
Thank you Don Tomas! You brought things in perspective here.
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waterbuffalo
Blarney, great comments, also!
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VeganXTC
There are so many wise thoughts on this thread!
What bothers me most about TS's or anyone else's teaching on how devil spirit possession might cause some cases of mental illness is, no matter how well intentioned the leader is, instead of hearing, "possession possibly causes some depression," there will be people who hear, "possession probably causes depression." People who are depressed will not seek help because of the shame, and the stigma attached. People who aren't depressed will shun or be afraid of the depressed person. I've heard people say, "If they were doing 'The Word' they wouldn't have this mental illness." I've heard people say, "There's nothing wrong with me! I'm not depressed! Do I look possessed to you?"
I dunno. Maybe these teachings help some people. Maybe some people find comfort in them. But personally, I've seen a whole lot more damage done than good.
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I Love Bagpipes
Double
:eusa_clap: FC.
I was thinking the same thing WB (applause) after reading FC's post.
FC, applause and commendations to you; you deserve it. :) I am not stating that sarcastically at all.
I think most of us understand that feeling; but it is the only way people will learn about this kind of stuff. My adage these days is, "Feel the fear and do it anyway." ;))
I was on the phone this afternoon discussing this thread. I mentioned that I had the thought to list some books that I have found helpful, and the other person thought that might be a good idea. I realize some people are readers and some aren't.
Bibliotherapy has been a factor in helping me gain wellness.
I'm sure other folks have read/studied books that have helped them as well.
For what it's worth, here are some books that I have found helpful:
Change Your Brain, Change Your Life by Daniel Amen
(Excellent read imo, helpful, easy to understand, practical. Dr. Amen divides the brain into 6(?) regions and list problems/case studies that stem from these regions. Each region then has a chapter on "prescriptions" to help in those problem areas. He also has pictures of brain scans for different problems. Explains some about how changing neural patterning can change biology.)
Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert
(Another top of list book on explaining receptors/lignans/neurotransmitters and how the biology of emotions works. Explains some about how changing neural patterning can change biology. Learn about her story as a woman scientist in the 60's at the NIH. Pert helped term the word psychoneuroimmunology and helped discover the opiate receptor.)
The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns
(Thick book, but filled with journaling exercises to help change cognitive patterns. Good list of pharmaceuticals and side effects of the same for mental illnesses.)
Women's Moods by Sichel and Driscoll
(Not an easy book to read but very in depth. Covers a woman's cycle from the onset of menses through menopause and beyond. Many case studies. List helpful suggestions for self care. I called and talked with the one of the authors who has a clinic in Maryland.)
Total Relaxation by John Harvey
(Helps to identify distorted thoughts and how to change them. Comes with a cd with 4 10 to 20 minute meditation exercises.)
The Anatomy of an Illness and Head First both by Norman Cousins
(Both of these are at the top of my list. Explains what it is like to suffer with chronic illness and the stigma attached with it. Goes into mind/body medicine, how the placebo effect works, how the body is its own pharmacy, the importance of the doctor/patient relationship. Learn Norman Cousins own struggles and what he applied to overcome.)
The Heartmath Solution by Doc Childres
(Excellent, excellent, excellent. :) Explains how the brain within the heart communicates with our bodies. Describes exercises to be in touch with one's emotional state and how to change that, how to reach neutral without suppression. Goes into electormagnetic field communications. Cutting edge research in this field.)
New Hope for People with Bipolar Disorder by Fawcett, Golden, and Rosenfeld
(I've referred to this one a lot over the past 6 years. Case studies of well known people who have suffered mental illness and how they manage(d) their lives. Explains what it is like for a relative who does NOT suffer with mental illness copes with a family member who does. Covers much about stigma and how to handle it.)
Healing Back Pain By John Sarno
(This may sound like it has no connection to mental illness, but it does. It goes into how suppressed emotion can cause physical symptoms/illnesses. Spring boarding from this book, I was able to rid spasms of a herniated disc and it led me into insight regarding other illnesses I was dealing with.)
The Natural Medicine Guide to Bipolar Disorder by Stephanie Marohn
(Somewhat helpful in explaining avenues outside accepted medical protocols that have helped some people with bipolar. Good for possibility thinking.)
The Heart's Code by Paul Pearsall
(About the role cellular memory plays in health.)
The Healing Power of the Christian Mind by William Backus
(Goes into mind/body medicine from a Christian perspective.)
Margin by Richard Swenson
(Excellent read on how modern lifestyle are exhausting people resulting in many illnesses. Written from a biblical perspective, yet unconventional. Practical keys. Great bibliography.)
Time Management from the Inside Out
(Not about depression, but takes into account mental/physical illness in time management.)
Cry of the Soul by Allender and Longman
(Describes how our emotions are given from God for a reason. Why it is important to hear them and not just brush them off.)
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GrouchoMarxJr
Twi has no business advising people on mental health problems or physical problems...hell, they're not even qualified to advise people on spiritual matters!
In reality, the leaders of twi are loaded with mental problems of their own.
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likeaneagle
Kind of a interesting thread to me, since I have et 3 people in the last few years who have this condition, not sure how to word this..
my recent encounter at work, lost her father to this condition...I think I will use it since it fits her father..He spent 9 month's with top notch Psychiatric Professors here at Duke,3 concluded that there was absolutely no evidence of any chemical imbalances found in their years of practice and studies..he refused medication based on that..wow
she is worried now it's genetic..
I pray for her
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I Love Bagpipes
I'm gonna think out loud here and ramble again. These are just some thoughts...no final judgments.
I agree that some people (maybe even many) come to the conclusion you have mentioned Vegan.
Us people here on this here board were all influenced deeply by TWI? I think I am correct in stating that? Possibly, we take that background and transfer it onto others? I know I have done it and still do at times. Someone who has not experienced TWI/religiously abusive spiritually suspicious programming (if you will) may see this option differently? I'm not being naive, but am trying to think outside my TWI spirtiually suspicious trained thinking.
I know I stated this earlier, but I think much is wrapped up in the way a "solution" is presented.
I tried lots of medical approaches for healing in various areas, approaches that should have worked but didn't. A similar stigma applies. Since something didn't work (but should have), some people (even medical folks) concluded it was "all in my head." But the concept wasn't presented to me without some stigma attached. It wasn't "what" was said necessarily, but how it was said. Sometimes the answer from a doc was, we can't find anything wrong with you or we don't know why you don't respond to treatment.
Years later I learned that indeed, some of my physical illnesses were directly related to "all in my head." But because this concept (psychsomatic illness) was explained to me intelligently and with respect ( the "solution" presentation), I was able to investigate it without fear of stigma.
Okay, done with my ramble. Maybe it made some sense? And maybe not...won't be the first time.
Thanks to anyone who tries to understand it. 
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Shellon
Sometimes the individual really doesn't fit into any of the axis of the DSM or any other test or experience.
That does not make a diagnosis of 'the client exhibits symptoms but nothing founded'
And often as the doctors search and search for a name, a reason to prescribe and there does usually have to be valid title to give drugs, they miss it for all their looking.
Additionally, the professionals often forget to ask the person.
PTSD, for instance, comes across as so many differant 'symptoms' as to be confused for any or all of them.
Sometimes, also, it has to be caught in it's cycle. A manic depressive, for example, or bipolar, depending on which professional is using which term, cycles and if s/he is in a manic cycle, they'll seem productive, promising, cooperative. This might bring about a diagnosis of 'nothing significant to report'.
Then maybe tomorrow, or next week, they'll hit the depressive cycle and they might not be able to get out of bed long enough to be assessed again.
Or worse, the client has come to be familiar with their own cycles and have learned to accept what is and doesn't believe anyone will help anyway (noone has before) and they just function until it progresses into a mess that might have been prevented.
Funds and services being what they are it's most difficult to get a proper diagnosis.
But this thread is about twi and treatment or lack thereof huh? It's so easy to label and toss out the depression reason for disobediance. And since leaders of religious organizations are "capable and able" to counsel their flocks, they can get away with it.
Blame is high on the list of things that also keep the person from seeking help that is trained and experienced as well. It's their fault, they are bringing it on themselves, they aren't working hard enough, they aren't listening....blah blah.
It's also a sad sad shame.
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Listener
May I ask, Shellon, what is PTSD?
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I Love Bagpipes
Upon further thought other folks deserve applause and commendations too: anyone who has suffered/overcome/managed or is suffering/currently in the midst of the fight.
Here is a line of applause since i can't do a round of applause.
btw: Tzaiza, insightful and hopeful post back on #47... but no one ever mentioned it so I thought I would here.
Listener, post traumatic stress disorder. (Last time I looked I'm not Shellon
, but thought I'd go ahead and give you an answer. Shellon can throw puters mators at me next time in chat. 
shell )
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Listener
Thanks, Bagpipes. Figerin' out some of these acronyms can be a trip.
I was comin' up with some pretty oddball definitions.
I, too, have had problems with TWI related depression and severe anxiety attacks. I got help and
have beat it. But my eyes tear up to read the pain others are enduring or have endured.
I pray for you guys and love you very much.
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Shellon
Nah, no mators or puter throwing
My apologies Listener, it's a habit I'm developing, that isn't a good one, of shortening all the psychological stuff.
And DSM IV is Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the psych world babble bible and diagnosing criteria manual. I wouldn't know how to be with out it now, and I'm not practicing yet.
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mdsnpp
I am a Nurse Practitioner in Psychiatry (NPP per my user name) and I can certify that depression is extraordinarily complex, and very hard to treat. I work in a state hospital for inmates, many of whom are doing life without parole, and yet I seldom see true depression in this population. I mean a handful of cases in 3 years. Medicine helps some folks, for many others it does nothing. We don't know why. We don't even really know what depression is. The side effects of meds can be life-destroying-like anorgasmia, for one. I have come to believe that there are as many different kinds of depression as there are depressed people. A few need more faith, many need to stop being condemned about their faith. Some need to excercise. Some need to stop excercising so much. Some need a better diet, some need to eat a little candy once in awhile. Some need a partner, some need a divorce. Some need an advanced degree to fulfill their call in this life. Some need to do their laundry and clean their house, literally and figuratively. Some need to forgive somebody, some need to get mad at somebody. As someone has said ,if the human mind were so simple we could understand it, we would be too simple to understand it. My take on a complex phenomena. When a new patient walks in the door, I always get a sinking feeling when depression is the main issue. I know that it is very unlikely that I'll see a dramatic improvement, especially if its a long-standing problem. I do thank twi for teaching me that the joy of the Lord is my strength. I had never heard it at the presbyterian church I grew up in...its gotten me through some very tough times.
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pond
I do not get the idea of "all in your head"
ok say that is a truth.. so does it make the problems and issues of life and how they are living less real to the person?
so what if it is all in your "head" the head is indeed quite an important baody part isnt it?
if it is all in your head should it be dismissed?
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Linda Z
Pond, I love how you cut right to the heart of the matter so many times. You really have a knack for that, and I think it's great.
mdsnpp and Shell, execellent points.
Shell, I think you know I think the world of ya, but I must say that those instructors and docs and journals are trying to give you another bad habit besides acronyms. Please, please, please don't call people by their disease names. A person with bipolar is so much more than "a bipolar."
I know you know that. It's a little bit of medicalese shorthand that creeps in and is subtly demeaning to patients/clients.
As for the original topic, I haven't had much time lately to post, so I've avoided posting in this thread because I don't want to discuss something so sensitive in a hurry. That's still the case, but I think everyone's doing a bang-up job without me!
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waterbuffalo
Linda, I understand your compassion, but disagree that Shellon was calling the people the abbreviations. I've reread her post and it looks like she is abbreviating the disease, not the people, imo.
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FullCircle
I quite agree with you. It is very real to the person dealing with the issue in their head.
My answer to that is and always has been, "Where the heck else would it be, in my big toe?"
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Shellon
Waterbuffalo, thank you but Linda was correct. What I should have said was an individual with a diagnosis of manic depression.... and so on, or one diagnosed with, etc.
:)
The way I worded it put the label on the person rather than the person with the illness needing help and treatment.
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Linda Z
Thanks for being gracious, Shell. I knew you'd get it immediately. I also know that anyone in the mental health or other medical fields are constantly bombarded with the other way of expressing illnesses.
Even though just about every day in my job as a medical editor I change things like "the diabetic" to "the patient with diabetes," and even though I've been in my field almost 20 years, it still takes a conscious effort to get it right because I so often hear it bass-ackwards.
Sorry for the derail!
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excathedra
what a great post mdsnpp
(sorry i haven't read most of the posts)
but i do wonder what you mean by "the joy of the lord is your strength"
thanks
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waterbuffalo
Linda, my apologies.
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