No I was implying removing hope for the person suffering and for some reason the medical profession can't help.
But I have to agree that some of the well meaning "fixers" do more damage than fix things.
Cool...I get it, I think.
In other words (as your other questions indicated from your post #36), if someone is brought hope by being offered a possible solution, the label on that solution really doesn't matter. A label such as "spirit possession (and an offering to be ministered to and delivered)" may sound offensive to one person, but could be hopeful to another?
[sort of makes me cringe, but I understand that other people don't think like moi....(and they are probably dang glad they don't! )]
So if I "judge" someone for believing that possession is (or could be) a cause, I am just as guilty as someone who may "judge" me as being possessed.
I'm just thinking out loud here .... from a point of neutrality (like there is such a thing...ha!).
A label such as "spirit possession (and an offering to be ministered to and delivered)" may sound offensive to one person, but could be hopeful to another?
But why is it, that the label "spirit possession" is so hopeful to the guy up front with the microphone, simplifiying life, claiming that a few properly spoken words, renewing of the mind, and the wave of the magic wand is all one needs to solve these kind of problems in life?
Sure, they are very hopeful. Have the quick and easy fix..
I wonder if these people have considered that most of the people who they deem afflicted with evil spirits have already tried that, and more?
"out in the name of Jesus, out in the name of Jesus.."
"are you out of your mind? no mr. fletcher in here.."
"gotta be. You've got problems, BESIDES, GOD TOLD ME..."
If I was sick, and was on the receiving end of something like this, I just might find it offensive too.
Maybe the people running around casting out spirits that aren't there need the meds too..
I wonder how much of this spiritual warfare business is illusion, human illusion, out of the vanity of the human mind, of another reality of sorts.
I was involved with this phenomenon for a while, and it was true, or it seemed true, at least to me. Or was it simply on a level of spiritual dimension I no longer choose to expend my energy on.
I wonder what would happen in this world if Christians really chose to love? Love with the kind of love that lays down its own life. Love that has no opinion or judgment, but rather chooses to merely love. And enter into rest.
These are my contemplations and not meant to disannul various levels of reality, as I have seen deliverance time and time again...
I wouldn't want to be the 'hopeful' spirit possesed depressed person who gets the spirit out but is afterwards still depressed.
How many times did you get ministered to, only to have the illness take its natural course anyway? Or get worse adn require medical help? I for one never had clear cut miracles from ministering, though I got ministered to all the time.
So then depressed person gets the added pressure of trying to figure out how the devil spirit got back in, where the open door is etc...
I wonder whether the writings of Matt, Mark, Luke, & John were just the musings of Jesus' life through the prisms of their own experience. So, seeing these marvelous happenings, their response was to narrate them in the only language they could conceive, using the only labels they knew.
My heart breaks for those who suffer depression, and I pray that those afflcted would be healed.
My apologies if I came across trite. Upon reading it later, it sounds very trite and like a pat on the back. Written/microwaved communication is limited.
Your circumstances sound overwhelming. Your suffering is not without significance. I truly hope you have friends/human contact/pet contact close by for comfort and support. And I agree with you, if you were not suffering loss/depression/grief ... that would be atypical.
I understand what hopelessness feels like, and while in it...it seems there may be no way out.
You will survive, even though the trip may be harsh and you have to dig deep to muster endurance.
But why is it, that the label "spirit possession" is so hopeful to the guy up front with the microphone, simplifiying life, claiming that a few properly spoken words, renewing of the mind, and the wave of the magic wand is all one needs to solve these kind of problems in life?
Sure, they are very hopeful. Have the quick and easy fix..
I wonder if these people have considered that most of the people who they deem afflicted with evil spirits have already tried that, and more?
I hear you and have lived it.
BUT, if the person "up front" has lived the saga of chronic/severe/whatever illness (be it depression or anything else for that matter), and has tried a million and one things that hadn't worked or had only partially worked, and then did get "ministered to" for a "spirit" and did get delivered .... that could offer hope to someone.
Perhaps the way the "hope" is offered makes a difference, ie: the attitude, empathy, suggestions, presentation, etc. from the one offering a possible solution? ... whether it be hypnosis, counseling, meds, nutrition,....or dare I say ministering to rid a spiritual cause.
One of my beefs (and only one ;) ), is when others dictate what an individual should do/apply for wholeness. Another of my beefs is unsolicited advice which many people are more than eager to offer. Suggestions are fine; advice...different story.
How many leaders in TWI or TWI spin offs have had years of chronic illness while being a leader?
Seems to be those are issues that keep people out of leadership positions in TWI--"Step down and get your life together" would be the kindest way I've seen it managed in TWI. Other ways were more harsh.
How many people in TWI or spin offs actually talk about their great deliverance from devil spirit possession?
( Well, sometimes people would talk about their drug trips in the 60s or beingf a card carrying Roman Catholic who got great deliverance from devil spirits.)
Very few I'll bet. In the TWI I knew you'd always be under a cloud of suspiscion.
I realize your questions are probably rhetorical Bramble. But in case not and if the questions were stated due to my previous post, I want to reply to the questions. (obviously)
(I also remember part of your health story and (I hope you remember) I empathize on a deep level.)
How many leaders in TWI or TWI spin offs have had years of chronic illness while being a leader?
How many people in TWI or spin offs actually talk about their great deliverance from devil spirit possession?
TWI? Probably very few. Spin offs? I cannot speak because I am not/haven't been deeply enough involved.
My thinking (at least in my last post) is outside the Way/Way offshoots bubble (even though I know this thread is within that bubble). My thinking takes into account the whole religious/group think venue .... as well as the medical/alternative health arena.
The stigma regarding illness (mental and physical) reaches far beyond the Waybrain bubble. (I know we all know that.) It is a part of culture and always will be. I think all agree that discussions like this help to remove or at least put into perspective the stigma.
Regardless (sadly), it seems human nature labels people and puts people in a one-size-fits all garment. When done in the name of religion/god ... reactions are sometimes volatile and at the extremes. Hell, isn't that how most wars start?
Back to depression...so far no takers to my question if anyone KNOWS of someone who had a devil spirit or demon cast out and is now better and no longer has depression.
Kinda what I thought and I'm really an optimist. Why else would I have believed that junk for so many years?
Yes, I do believe Jesus cast 'em out. Yes, I do believe his followers cast 'em out. Yes, I do believe followers today can cast 'em out. But, no I know anyone who has had 'em cast out and is now better.
So, logically speaking, seems to me the thing to do is to seek medical help so people can GET BETTER...instead of sitting around for 5 more years wondering why they feel depressed all of the time even though they supposedly had some cast out or changed their diet or whatever.
It is interesting that Martin Luther suffered bi-polar/manic-depression through out most of his life. I bet Wierwille and Martindale, plus Geer would say ol Marty was devil possessed.
Back to depression...so far no takers to my question if anyone KNOWS of someone who had a devil spirit or demon cast out and is now better and no longer has depression.
I know of a family that had some major deliverance. Their adult daughter had many spirits cast out of her. She used to be depressed (and had other problems). I saw a radical change in her when I saw her.
But her parents have admitted that, though these things happened, they got tired of the whole idea of dwelling on casting out stuff. Made life too busy, I guess.
They, too, have been searching for a greater reality.
I was depressed when I took PFAL, and I was delivered for sure. But I don't think it was because of the whole class, but because of a truth that came to me. This is all subjective, I might add.
I know of a family that had some major deliverance. Their adult daughter had many spirits cast out of her. She used to be depressed (and had other problems). I saw a radical change in her when I saw her.
But her parents have admitted that, though these things happened, they got tired of the whole idea of dwelling on casting out stuff. Made life too busy, I guess.
They, too, have been searching for a greater reality.
Blarney
Hey Blarney. That's my whole point. It wasn't a genuine healing, then, if it keeps coming back--it was just in remission for a while.
Woops! Had an unpure thought so "they" must be back! Not!
I'm sorry, but if God had wanted us perfect he would have made us perfect and then we would have a perfect thought life.
To live in fear of getting posessed or reposessed because of an unpure thought is just ludicrous!
God made us imperfect because that is the way He wanted us. And, imo, because we are impure and imperfect beings we look to Him to help us. He can. We can't. Let Him.
If it takes a perfect thought life to keep a devil out, then I don't think it's going to be possible to do it. And, a loving God is not going to ask us to do something He knows we can't do. That is why I don't believe depression is a ds. If we could just think something else and it would go away, then it isn't depression. That's something else entirely--dwelling on negatives, darkness, whatever you want to call it. Depression is not something you choose to do. It is an illness and can be treated.
Sadly, Christians are the most untreated people in this field because of this crazy teaching from a lot of pupits (I have read this and been taught this in classes by more than one MD).
I don't believe mental illness is devil possession. Not at all. I struggled with this question along with a host of others when I left TWI. I came to the conclusion that not only is being poor NOT a sin, being sick is NOT a sin or lack of faith, that mental illness is not demonic activity either.
I know that there are lots of <b>stories</b> out there about people being 'delivered.' I think that there is more to the story than meets the eye. I think that not one of us came to TWI thinking we were possessed; those of us who suffered from panic or anxiety or depression. We were told we were possessed or oppressed and we came to believe it. Then someone came to us to heal us and cast it out, quote unquote. We may have had experience a day or two or even months of relative ease then it was back. Did the spirit come back? No, it did not because it was never there. The power of suggestion wore off and the real issues causing the depression or panic or anxiety rose to the surface AGAIN because the real issues that caused our symptoms were still there and were never removed.
So either it was chemical inbalance or unresolved issues buried deep in the back of our minds that were triggered by some event outside of it that made it come back. It will continue to come back until we got the true help we needed.
I suffered from depression (without even knowing it but would refuse to admit it in TWI cause that meant I was possessed) for years along with panic and anxiety. I would have times when the sky was blue and clear, figuratively speaking and others times when I was so so traumatized by these disorders I could barely sleep. The more upset I became, the harder I worked for the believers in the area I was in. I was such a worker bee that I was coveted by many Way Homes who wanted me to move in.
TWI never got me delivered. The PFAL class never got me delivered. The Advanced Class never got me delivered. All my Bible reading, praying in my understanding and speaking in tongues never got me delivered.
Leaving TWI was my first step in deliverance cause now I had options to get help. Psychotherapy I went. My symptoms were all repressed anger and fear and reliving the abuse I had suffered as a child. The memories and feelings never went away and in short, I had just stuffed it into the most inner recesses of my being. TWI was like manure mixed with cement that kept it covered because of blah blah and positive and not looking at the past and feelings were bad and blah blah blah. TWI kept me UNWHOLE because the doctrines of TWI does not serve the WHOLE person but rather the orgainzition itself.
So I had to go on a search and over a couple of years I had to recount memories and relive the emotions tied to them. I couldn't do that as child, it was too overwhelming. As an adult, I could. I cried and raged and worked very very hard to become whole again. Or maybe I was becoming truly whole for the first time. There were NO devils making me feel this way. NO strange entities working with in me to make me suffer. It was all the abuse from my childhood rising up to the surface. I faced it head on, sometimes on my knees crying, afraid I would go crazy but you know what? I didn't go crazy, I become whole and I was healed.
I haven't suffered depression in over ten years and no panic either. What I needed to be whole TWI could never give as it sneered at the psychiatric community and I shudder over the harm that attitude has caused in many who did not survive and for those who struggled with that kind of stigma over their heads. Damn them for the ill will they sent out to those who only wanted to know and serve and love God.
My niece suffered at the hands of an Assembly of God pastor who determined she was possessed and tried to exorcise her in front of the congregation. She was a teenager for cripes sake and teenage problems. He caused more problems and harm then he did good and she was NOT a willing partner so she felt NO obligation to go along and believe that she was possessed and play the part. Needless to say nothing was cast out because nothing was there to cast out and her unwillingness to go along with it made him look like a fool and he banned her from the church.
The episodes of abuse that take place in the name of Jesus Christ leave me flabberghasted. The only place I would think devil spirits live is in the minds of these men who try to mock those 'weaker' than them and exploit people to make themselves look like some thing they are not...ie men of God.
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Ham
I saw an old National Geographic special once.. it was about some tribe in the Amazon.. actually two tribes. There were two dueling witchdoctors. The one claimed to put "spirits" in the other one..
Ham
No joke.. I thought at the time: "where have I seen THIS before.." hey, der ministry didn't just limit the possibility to humans. Why, even poor animals could get possessed. I remember loy's l
Ham
Maybe the chicken in suspect started doing a line dance or something. Possessed with the spurt of Swa-tra-tra..
year2027
God first
Beloved Hopefull
God loves you my dear friend
yes you are not posessed just dealing with a lot of things and we love you
take care my friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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I Love Bagpipes
I am
here....but I must say Waterbuffalo, I really like this signature.
Now that my house has burned down, I have a better view of the moon - - -
A lot said in a few words....and it brings a smile too!
OKAY...back to subject.
I hope stuff turns around for you soon Hopefull.
You have a great screen name, btw.
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I Love Bagpipes
Cool...I get it, I think.
In other words (as your other questions indicated from your post #36), if someone is brought hope by being offered a possible solution, the label on that solution really doesn't matter. A label such as "spirit possession (and an offering to be ministered to and delivered)" may sound offensive to one person, but could be hopeful to another?
[sort of makes me cringe, but I understand that other people don't think like moi....(and they are probably dang glad they don't!
)]
So if I "judge" someone for believing that possession is (or could be) a cause, I am just as guilty as someone who may "judge" me as being possessed.
I'm just thinking out loud here .... from a point of neutrality (like there is such a thing...ha!).
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Ham
But why is it, that the label "spirit possession" is so hopeful to the guy up front with the microphone, simplifiying life, claiming that a few properly spoken words, renewing of the mind, and the wave of the magic wand is all one needs to solve these kind of problems in life?
Sure, they are very hopeful. Have the quick and easy fix..
I wonder if these people have considered that most of the people who they deem afflicted with evil spirits have already tried that, and more?
"out in the name of Jesus, out in the name of Jesus.."
"are you out of your mind? no mr. fletcher in here.."
"gotta be. You've got problems, BESIDES, GOD TOLD ME..."
If I was sick, and was on the receiving end of something like this, I just might find it offensive too.
Maybe the people running around casting out spirits that aren't there need the meds too..
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Ham
Reminds me of my old limb coordinator character.. he even had digestion problems simplified in life. Claimed to never mix his bread and vegetables.
It's hard to try to reason with a five year old mentality.
They think they have the answer to everything..
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blarney
I wonder how much of this spiritual warfare business is illusion, human illusion, out of the vanity of the human mind, of another reality of sorts.
I was involved with this phenomenon for a while, and it was true, or it seemed true, at least to me. Or was it simply on a level of spiritual dimension I no longer choose to expend my energy on.
I wonder what would happen in this world if Christians really chose to love? Love with the kind of love that lays down its own life. Love that has no opinion or judgment, but rather chooses to merely love. And enter into rest.
These are my contemplations and not meant to disannul various levels of reality, as I have seen deliverance time and time again...
Blarney
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Ham
I've thought about this too. I think the illusion is the interpretation one gives to what one sees.
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Bramble
I wouldn't want to be the 'hopeful' spirit possesed depressed person who gets the spirit out but is afterwards still depressed.
How many times did you get ministered to, only to have the illness take its natural course anyway? Or get worse adn require medical help? I for one never had clear cut miracles from ministering, though I got ministered to all the time.
So then depressed person gets the added pressure of trying to figure out how the devil spirit got back in, where the open door is etc...
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blarney
Mr. Hammeroni,
Aha, a kindred soul in the quest for The One!
I wonder whether the writings of Matt, Mark, Luke, & John were just the musings of Jesus' life through the prisms of their own experience. So, seeing these marvelous happenings, their response was to narrate them in the only language they could conceive, using the only labels they knew.
My heart breaks for those who suffer depression, and I pray that those afflcted would be healed.
Blarney
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Danny
Maybe their was the fall of man and because of it
things happen. One kind of depression is cause by
chemicals not right. This whole world is not right.
I think you would have to change a lot of things to
make life around us peach keen. Or in us.
Age of a minister has much to do with the was they view
things of this life. A you unmarried minister is going to tell me
how to raise a kid. Right.
A person that has a tainted view of the devil is going to say
oh they are possessed. Right.
The quick easy answer. Itching ears sounds good.
Sounds like a broken cistern that wholes no water and
brings no deliverance. Religion that is to big of a load to
carry.
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I Love Bagpipes
Hopefull,
My apologies if I came across trite. Upon reading it later, it sounds very trite and like a pat on the back. Written/microwaved communication is limited.
Your circumstances sound overwhelming. Your suffering is not without significance. I truly hope you have friends/human contact/pet contact close by for comfort and support. And I agree with you, if you were not suffering loss/depression/grief ... that would be atypical.
I understand what hopelessness feels like, and while in it...it seems there may be no way out.
You will survive, even though the trip may be harsh and you have to dig deep to muster endurance.
You will be in my thoughts/prayers,
ILB
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I Love Bagpipes
I hear you and have lived it.
BUT, if the person "up front" has lived the saga of chronic/severe/whatever illness (be it depression or anything else for that matter), and has tried a million and one things that hadn't worked or had only partially worked, and then did get "ministered to" for a "spirit" and did get delivered .... that could offer hope to someone.
Perhaps the way the "hope" is offered makes a difference, ie: the attitude, empathy, suggestions, presentation, etc. from the one offering a possible solution? ... whether it be hypnosis, counseling, meds, nutrition,....or dare I say ministering to rid a spiritual cause.
One of my beefs (and only one ;) ), is when others dictate what an individual should do/apply for wholeness. Another of my beefs is unsolicited advice which many people are more than eager to offer.
Suggestions are fine; advice...different story.
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Bramble
How many leaders in TWI or TWI spin offs have had years of chronic illness while being a leader?
Seems to be those are issues that keep people out of leadership positions in TWI--"Step down and get your life together" would be the kindest way I've seen it managed in TWI. Other ways were more harsh.
How many people in TWI or spin offs actually talk about their great deliverance from devil spirit possession?
( Well, sometimes people would talk about their drug trips in the 60s or beingf a card carrying Roman Catholic who got great deliverance from devil spirits.)
Very few I'll bet. In the TWI I knew you'd always be under a cloud of suspiscion.
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I Love Bagpipes
I realize your questions are probably rhetorical Bramble. But in case not and if the questions were stated due to my previous post, I want to reply to the questions. (obviously)
(I also remember part of your health story and (I hope you remember) I empathize on a deep level.)
TWI? Probably very few. Spin offs? I cannot speak because I am not/haven't been deeply enough involved.
My thinking (at least in my last post) is outside the Way/Way offshoots bubble (even though I know this thread is within that bubble). My thinking takes into account the whole religious/group think venue .... as well as the medical/alternative health arena.
The stigma regarding illness (mental and physical) reaches far beyond the Waybrain bubble. (I know we all know that.) It is a part of culture and always will be. I think all agree that discussions like this help to remove or at least put into perspective the stigma.
Regardless (sadly), it seems human nature labels people and puts people in a one-size-fits all garment. When done in the name of religion/god ... reactions are sometimes volatile and at the extremes. Hell, isn't that how most wars start?
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waterbuffalo
Thanks, Pipes!
Back to depression...so far no takers to my question if anyone KNOWS of someone who had a devil spirit or demon cast out and is now better and no longer has depression.
Kinda what I thought and I'm really an optimist. Why else would I have believed that junk for so many years?
Yes, I do believe Jesus cast 'em out. Yes, I do believe his followers cast 'em out. Yes, I do believe followers today can cast 'em out. But, no I know anyone who has had 'em cast out and is now better.
So, logically speaking, seems to me the thing to do is to seek medical help so people can GET BETTER...instead of sitting around for 5 more years wondering why they feel depressed all of the time even though they supposedly had some cast out or changed their diet or whatever.
Denial isn't a river in Egypt.....
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
It is interesting that Martin Luther suffered bi-polar/manic-depression through out most of his life. I bet Wierwille and Martindale, plus Geer would say ol Marty was devil possessed.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Does she also teach that cancer is a devil spirit?...
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Ham
Good question.
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blarney
I know of a family that had some major deliverance. Their adult daughter had many spirits cast out of her. She used to be depressed (and had other problems). I saw a radical change in her when I saw her.
But her parents have admitted that, though these things happened, they got tired of the whole idea of dwelling on casting out stuff. Made life too busy, I guess.
They, too, have been searching for a greater reality.
I was depressed when I took PFAL, and I was delivered for sure. But I don't think it was because of the whole class, but because of a truth that came to me. This is all subjective, I might add.
Blarney
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oenophile
I forgot to take my meds this morning. Now I can't stop my head from spinning and green puke is all over the place.
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waterbuffalo
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waterbuffalo
Hey Blarney. That's my whole point. It wasn't a genuine healing, then, if it keeps coming back--it was just in remission for a while.
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waterbuffalo
Woops! Had an unpure thought so "they" must be back! Not!
I'm sorry, but if God had wanted us perfect he would have made us perfect and then we would have a perfect thought life.
To live in fear of getting posessed or reposessed because of an unpure thought is just ludicrous!
God made us imperfect because that is the way He wanted us. And, imo, because we are impure and imperfect beings we look to Him to help us. He can. We can't. Let Him.
If it takes a perfect thought life to keep a devil out, then I don't think it's going to be possible to do it. And, a loving God is not going to ask us to do something He knows we can't do. That is why I don't believe depression is a ds. If we could just think something else and it would go away, then it isn't depression. That's something else entirely--dwelling on negatives, darkness, whatever you want to call it. Depression is not something you choose to do. It is an illness and can be treated.
Sadly, Christians are the most untreated people in this field because of this crazy teaching from a lot of pupits (I have read this and been taught this in classes by more than one MD).
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FullCircle
I don't believe mental illness is devil possession. Not at all. I struggled with this question along with a host of others when I left TWI. I came to the conclusion that not only is being poor NOT a sin, being sick is NOT a sin or lack of faith, that mental illness is not demonic activity either.
I know that there are lots of <b>stories</b> out there about people being 'delivered.' I think that there is more to the story than meets the eye. I think that not one of us came to TWI thinking we were possessed; those of us who suffered from panic or anxiety or depression. We were told we were possessed or oppressed and we came to believe it. Then someone came to us to heal us and cast it out, quote unquote. We may have had experience a day or two or even months of relative ease then it was back. Did the spirit come back? No, it did not because it was never there. The power of suggestion wore off and the real issues causing the depression or panic or anxiety rose to the surface AGAIN because the real issues that caused our symptoms were still there and were never removed.
So either it was chemical inbalance or unresolved issues buried deep in the back of our minds that were triggered by some event outside of it that made it come back. It will continue to come back until we got the true help we needed.
I suffered from depression (without even knowing it but would refuse to admit it in TWI cause that meant I was possessed) for years along with panic and anxiety. I would have times when the sky was blue and clear, figuratively speaking and others times when I was so so traumatized by these disorders I could barely sleep. The more upset I became, the harder I worked for the believers in the area I was in. I was such a worker bee that I was coveted by many Way Homes who wanted me to move in.
TWI never got me delivered. The PFAL class never got me delivered. The Advanced Class never got me delivered. All my Bible reading, praying in my understanding and speaking in tongues never got me delivered.
Leaving TWI was my first step in deliverance cause now I had options to get help. Psychotherapy I went. My symptoms were all repressed anger and fear and reliving the abuse I had suffered as a child. The memories and feelings never went away and in short, I had just stuffed it into the most inner recesses of my being. TWI was like manure mixed with cement that kept it covered because of blah blah and positive and not looking at the past and feelings were bad and blah blah blah. TWI kept me UNWHOLE because the doctrines of TWI does not serve the WHOLE person but rather the orgainzition itself.
So I had to go on a search and over a couple of years I had to recount memories and relive the emotions tied to them. I couldn't do that as child, it was too overwhelming. As an adult, I could. I cried and raged and worked very very hard to become whole again. Or maybe I was becoming truly whole for the first time. There were NO devils making me feel this way. NO strange entities working with in me to make me suffer. It was all the abuse from my childhood rising up to the surface. I faced it head on, sometimes on my knees crying, afraid I would go crazy but you know what? I didn't go crazy, I become whole and I was healed.
I haven't suffered depression in over ten years and no panic either. What I needed to be whole TWI could never give as it sneered at the psychiatric community and I shudder over the harm that attitude has caused in many who did not survive and for those who struggled with that kind of stigma over their heads. Damn them for the ill will they sent out to those who only wanted to know and serve and love God.
My niece suffered at the hands of an Assembly of God pastor who determined she was possessed and tried to exorcise her in front of the congregation. She was a teenager for cripes sake and teenage problems. He caused more problems and harm then he did good and she was NOT a willing partner so she felt NO obligation to go along and believe that she was possessed and play the part. Needless to say nothing was cast out because nothing was there to cast out and her unwillingness to go along with it made him look like a fool and he banned her from the church.
The episodes of abuse that take place in the name of Jesus Christ leave me flabberghasted. The only place I would think devil spirits live is in the minds of these men who try to mock those 'weaker' than them and exploit people to make themselves look like some thing they are not...ie men of God.
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