Oldies, first let's be clear on something. Not all the young girls who had sex with twi "leaders" initiated it or even wanted it--I know that for a fact.
I think responsibility and accountability have to be looked at in proportion to who had the power in the situation.
Even in instances when young girls or boys threw themselves at twi leaders, any adult who is in a position of trust, in a profession in which people come to him/her for counseling (minister, doctor, lawyer, psychologist, psychiatrist, teacher come to mind), should know that power (or perceived power) is an attraction, and he/she should be ready to graciously turn away any inappropriate advances or innuendo.
You know darn well I'm not one of those "Wierwille haters," but I sure as hell won't make excuses for any of his actions that, contrary to God's Word, were NOT loving and were NOT right by anyone's standards except those who rationalized that they were okay.
Like I said early in this thread, I'm not here either to excuse or condemn anyone else's sins. That's between each person and God. But I sorta doubt that "that darn 16-year-old girl made me do it" is gonna hold much water.
I have a friend who has a daughter who did initiate SEX with an older man. She was very cute and built very well. But she was 15!
Now, this guy was not a minister or a Doctor just a good man. Like you hope most are out there.
She sat on his lap and began to behave in a very secuctive manner. He told her to knock it off and he called her mother and told her to come get her daughter. He told her mother she needed help.
Turns out she did need help. She had been raped by a foreign exchange student who then sought help at the French embassy and was not brought to justice when she was 7.
Praise God this man did the right thing. I would like to think 75% of the men out there would. I would like to think that. I find it interesting though how some here seem to think because a young girl acts seductive that she becomes open season.
I don't know why OM you seem to think that would be an okay situation in your book. Makes me wonder... Have you been in that situation?
BTW, nothing personal here...just expressing my thoughts and opinions
Contrary to the position of Patricia Liberty, I think those who are exploited by someone holding a position of power and influence generally do not enjoy an absence of responsibility for their own (non-coerced) actions--despite their having acted at some reduced level of consent due to various relational, psychological and/or social influences.
I do not think the exploiter and the exploited are responsible for things completely equal in kind, or that both are worthy of symmetrical contempt.
I think Wierwille was a self-promoter who exalted himself before a following of ignorant and impressionable (and sinning) teenyboppers, and was a contemptible teenage-girl-exploiting sonofabitch.
*****
I am an ex-Wayfer.
[This message was edited by Cynic on January 07, 2004 at 20:15.]
cynic--apologies, i was confusing you with another Calvinist who was on Waydale and the old gsc, DataRat. None the less, the MOG is the one who is representing GOD here, not some young thing who very well may be coming on to him or someone completely hood-winked by him. Who supposedly has the experience in living Christ-like?? Of course sin is sin and both participated--DUHHH!! a 5 year old knows THAT...we are talking about LEADING and being LED--what is SO hard to wrap one 's mind around about that??????????????????????????????????
quote: ... any adult who is in a position of trust, in a profession in which people come to him/her for counseling (minister, doctor, lawyer, psychologist, psychiatrist, teacher come to mind), should know that power (or perceived power) is an attraction, and he/she should be ready to graciously turn away any inappropriate advances or innuendo.
That was very well put, but it's another good example of something that in real life that is much "easier said than done." Unless your a refrigerator, for some people it's darn hard for them to cool down once they get hot. The title/profession you hold is no guarantee of that.
If your drunk, aren't you responsible for your own actions of what you do and also what may happen to you while your under the influence of alcohol? If I run into somebody and kill them while DWOI, chances are good I would lose my license, plus a whole lot of other negative things could happen to me. I highly doubt most people would accept the fact I have some sort of "disease", and therefore I am not responsible for my actions, even if there is a group of people out there that want to classify alcoholism a disease. There's even a group of hostile mothers (M.A.D.D.) who ain't going to let me get off that easily.
So if your a sexpot, what you have could also be called a disease and therefore nobody can hold you responsible for your actions either? I think that is what they are pushing - they call these people "Sex-aholics" - you know, people who are addicted to sex rather than alcohol.
It all sounds like an easy way to get off of being held accountable and responsible for your actions today. Instead of someone being accountable and responsible, let's just say you have this "mysterious disease" there seems to be no real cure for. (But you can send all those research $ to me instead to find a cure for all these diseases - I promise I'll find one. Yeah right!)
The woman who was to go into the corpse with her hubs...
Good for her husband!
But what happens to the wife whose husband is a yesman? She gets needled and bullied by both "leadership" and her husband. She's pregnant (a perfectly legitimate state of being in a marriage, btw)...her emotions are tied to her hormones that are out of whack...she loves god...she loves "the word"...she loves her husband...she wants the child...but "it" is just a bunch of cells that most probably popped up due to a "trick by the adversary" to get her to turn against god, "the word" and her husband. Those "cells" haven't made themselves known yet...there's no movement or any visible signs of "life"...even "the word" says "it" is not "alive" yet...
So here's her choice: turn against god, "the word" and her husband or rid herself of a nuisance that was probably put there by "the adversary".
Yeah...there's a question in my mind about just what is behind the lack of simple human understanding concerning this...and in my mind it's more to do with guilt...especially when a "hypothetical" (yeah...right...me thinks the man doth protest too much) situation gets tossed into the discussion to confuse the point...
When I was pregnant with my daughter I was told to have an abortion and if I didn't my daughter would be maimed for life or born again of the wrong seed.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Because of heredity and a botched IUD job, I had a hard time conceiving after my daughter was born. When I did conceive, I couldn't carry the child past the first 8 weeks.
For 8 years my hubs and I tried and tried to have a child together. I got "ministered" to many, many times. Usually I was told to relax and let nature take its course.
Then in Alaska I had 3 "mogs" tell me that I would never have another child...that "god" had better plans for my life.
I didn't believe them because I had had a dream about a 4yo little boy that was me and my husband's child. So we kept trying.
Less than a year after the last time a "mog" told me I'd never have another child again, I was pregnant. We didn't tell anybody until the 2nd trimester. Just in case...ya know?
When we told the limb leader of Alaska (G*** K***), he denounced the child in my womb as an "ill-gotten child of satan". Of course the other "leadership" in Alaska felt the same way.
That child is now 17yo. He has been nothing but a great joy to me and my husband. In fact, we often wonder if he is our child at all...that maybe he is an under cover angel or something. :)--> He's never been in trouble. He's very respectful and easy-going. He's brilliant beyond our comprehension. He's a healing presence in many, many lives. He's just plain unbelieveable.
i was not a teeny bopper wanting to "do" the man of god
i told him my life's story of child sexual abuse and that i was so thankful to have him as my "father" in the word
i NEVER went to him to offer myself or anything like that
i NEVER thought it would be a feather in my cap or a privilege to be with the man of god
i loved him as a father. i thought he loved me with the love of god
well he did explain the love of god for me was to teach me sexually how to get over my child abuse. and i told him i could not handle that, i was not spiritually "there"
guess what. from age 18 to 23, i believe, he continued to counsel me and finally i ended up a victim although i can't remember much of that night
i don't know if i'm explaining this well
but he .... broke my heart, my trust, my spirit
and never once did i think it would be a privilege to be a groupie
so anyway i feel hurt
and betrayed
and exploited
and it don't think it was fair that he used my ....edupness for his lust ..... whatever....
either dr. wierwille in his position as my clergyman, man of god, minister,whatever-you-wanna-call it, was either correct in his evaluation of my need at the time, after i had opened my heart to him, and i have not faithfully renewed my mind and walked graciously on the healing that he ministered unto me..... or .... he erred in his diagnosis which caused these haunting memories for the last twenty plus years
some people just don't get it... if YOU are in a position of authority and stewardship over someone, the proper 'undershepherding' technique is not to succumb to the desires of the flesh...
that said, no human is a refrigerator, that's true, but weakness (momentary, one time or many) does not excuse the action(s)...
like it or not, and I'm not totally excusing the unbridled lust of someone who may put someone in a position, the ultimate responsibility and therefore blame, lies on the one in power...
they should not assume that power if they cannot handle it.
that's all I have to say (for a while anyway).
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
Oh geez, you guys - - come on!!!! It wasn't just VPW and LCM - - it was other leaders (BOT) and region and limb guys & gals too!!!! A one time indiscretion or succumbing to temptation is one thing - - but this went on for YEARS, with MULTIPLE seductions, rapes, and other very inappropriate behavior. They put THEMSELVES in compromising situations because THAT IS WHAT THEY WANTED!!! Plain and simple. It ain't that hard, folks if you have your eyes open!
And none of these guys or others who knew what was going on, had the balls to set up an accountability system!!!!! Why? you would ask???? Because they had NO INTENTION of stopping. You got that???? This was deliberate, willful, planned actions. MULTIPLE TIMES. MULTIPLE OCCURRENCES. MANY LEADERS. Many women used.
You know in the secular world - - and I'm not even talking religious organizations here. You cross that line and you're FIRED. No questions asked. It's stated in employee handbooks about sexual harrassment, etc. I did marketing for years as a female in male dominated industries and had to entertain clients. You'd better believe there were guys that wanted a piece of a**. And you know what??? I represented my company and had to draw very clear demarcations for these guys. This is business fellas. Period. No compromise. Don't even go there. End of subject. You just make it perfectly clear it's not even an option. And if they don't understand "no", you just remove yourself from the situation. Most of the time you would never even allow yourself to be one on one alone anywhere. Always in public. Always above board. Business is business.
And let me tell you, even when there is a case of sexual harrassment (or when a manager crosses a line with a subordinate) - - you better believe it is taken VERY SERIOUSLY. It is dealt with quickly and severely. But that is because the violated people finally have been given a voice. A few brave souls came forward and refused to be swept under the rug and took these cases to court and gave others the courage to tell their stories too. And finally, the U.S. government and Corporate America had to make LAWS to protect people in the workplace - - not because it never happened - - - - BUT BECAUSE IT WAS HAPPENING SO MUCH!!!!!
But, oh no. No accountability in TWI. At 18, after just getting in the Word, I had a Limb Leader come over to talk to me about going WOW. He was very inappropriate and talked very graphicly sexually about what he liked about my body. He was married with a child, too. I told him flat out I wasn't interested in talking like that and asked him to leave. He was finally removed as the Limb Leader after numerous liaisons with females in his limb - - and another guy was sent in to clean up all the messes!!!!!
As a single, female twig leader, I had single guys in my twig and in my area. You know what???? We never crossed that line. I didn't date them (with the exception of my boyfriend who I dated before I got in the Word), didn't come on to them and if they were coming on to me, I got it right back on topic. Don't even go there, pal.
So you guys are trying to tell me a "clergyman" who's been around a "ministry" for a lot of years, can't make that kinda judgment call???? Makes you wonder what the hell kinda mininstry they had going, huh???? And why there was never any clearly stated disciplinary policies written up for "leaders" who crossed that line - - like most other organizations outside TWI have.
All of this stuff was shrouded in secrecy - - BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT!!!!!!
This is not rocket science, OM and others. You guys want to perpetuate your Way fantasy. Yeah, well I had a great twig too. Wonderful people. I thought VP was a nice guy too at the beginning. I loved learning about the Bible. But I heard about these sexual stories far too frequently for my liking. And if the Internet had been around in the 70s, well your fantasy world would have come crashing down all the sooner. You can discount the truth all you want and try to perpetuate stereotypical crap like "these girls really wanted it" and let your MOGs off the hook, but there's just too much evidence to the contrary. With the Internet, we've hit critical mass - - too much to discount anymore. So you can keep your nice warm, fuzzy memories and go back in your turtle shells like the truth doesn't really exist, but it won't change the truth. This **** happened from the 1970s and for decades after and was too widespread to refute any longer.
These guys had opportunities to change, to come clean, to repent, to set up accountability structures - - over a period of decades when they were confronted - - - and the truth of the matter is, THEY DID NOT CHOOSE TO. They continued to hide their sinful behavior and the boys club and the party lifestyle continued, leaving shattered lives in their wake.
So if our government has laws to protect victims, don't you think, in the very least, our religious leaders would take these type of horrible things seriously????? The children of men are wiser than the sons of God.
Dot, Excathedra, Sunny, and others - - you are very brave to tell your stories. I pray for your healing and that your stories can help others who have been hurt to sort out their own lives and confusion from what occurred.
Patricia Liberty?s essay is not a teaching, as oldiesman describes it. It is certainly not gospel truth. It is a statement of opinion. It is arguable that a minister and congregant can have a sexual relationship that is truly voluntary and non-abusive. It is pretty much a certainty that not all women (or men) who have sexual relations with a minister are blameless. That still doesn?t excuse the minister, who bears the greater responsibility, and therefore the greater blame.
The abuse stories to which Linda referred in her opening post are not stories of voluntary, non-abusive relationships. All are stories of abuse, and most are stories of sexual assault. I believe the stories I?ve read here and will assume that they are true in what follows.
In present-day Texas, what Wierwille did is punishable by imprisonment for 2 to 20 years, plus a fine of up to $10,000.00, for each offense. Someone with as many offenses as Wierwille could conceivably be put away for life. Whether or not drugged drinks were used wouldn't matter, except to raise time of imprisonment. All that is required is that ?the actor is a clergyman who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person's emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman's professional character as spiritual adviser.? There?s no way around it. That describes Wierwille in every single one of the sexual abuse stories I?ve read.
Lest anyone be tempted to go off on a sidetrack about laws, the law is not the major point. The seriousness of the abuse is. At the very best, Wierwille took advantage of vulnerable women who looked to him for spiritual guidance. Rather than helping them, he used them to satisfy his own lusts. He didn?t do that just once, or a few times. He did it repeatedly, over a period of years, and taught others to do the same. How anyone who claims to believe the Bible can honor the man is beyond me.
I wish Wierwille were alive to experience the light of public exposure.
I think some criminal investigators should evaluate John Lynn's assertions about there having been druggings of some that Wierwille desired as sex-chattel.
I'm going to tell you a personal story and maybe this will help you relate.
I was raised in an alcoholic family. I am the youngest of 3 girls. My father was very violent with my mother and my sisters and I from my very first memory of my family life. Numerous times, my mother had to call the police to protect us.
My father would go on drunken tirades in the middle of the night and pull us out of bed and beat us, punch us, pull our hair, whip my oldest sister. But as in many abuse situations, the silent rule of "don't ever talk about it" dominated our lives. Our neighbors, friends and extended family didn't even know what was happening in our private little hell.
I recently went to the 75th birthday party for our closest neighbor across the street. She and her husband had no idea what was going on at our house for years and when they finally found out, years later, they were in such disbelief, because my dad was like Dr. Jeckell and Mr. Hyde. During the day, he was the most wonderful, congenial person you'd ever want to meet. At night after he got home, he drank himself into a stupor and became increasingly violdent.
My folks got divorced when I was 8. My father remarried and when I started high school, he got custody of us. He started beating up on his 2nd wife even before they got married, but she hoped she could change him. Well, the violence only got worse as we got older. I started standing up to him and fighting back and running away from home.
At the time, I went to a nice, catholic high school. I was a good student and popular with my classmates and my teachers. And guess who became the president of the Parent's Association my last 2 years of high school???? My father. He was a great fundraiser and everyone loved him, but no one knew the dark secrets of what went on in our home at night. I'd go to school with bruises or so exhausted after being up all night listening to his tirades.
And you know what???? I could never tell my friends what was going on. Well, I tried, but guess what???? They couldn't even begin to imagine what I was talking about. And neither could they believe it.
It wasn't until my Senior year and my father tried to kill me one night. I finally wrestled myself free and ran over to a neighbor's house and called the police. I had just turned 18 and could legally press charges, which I did and had him put in jail.
Next morning, I had to go to school to take midterms, which I was in no shape to take, so went to the Dean and Principal to tell them what happened. Guess what??? They couldn't begin to believe my story, until I took off my jacket and showed them the bruises and finger marks around my neck.
I moved out and lived happily ever after except for a 16 year stint in a cult. ;)-->
But my point for sharing this is that, back in the 50s, 60s and early 70s, abuse and domestic violence wasn't talked about. My mother was shamed and shunned when people found out what was going on, as though she had brought it on herself. My sister's nuns forbid her from speaking about my father when she said that's where her bruises came from. Our friends thought we just had vivid imaginations and wanted attention or something. Middle class families just didn't have these kind of problems.
We were always made to feel like WE were the problem, cuz surely a nice man like my dad, a successful business man, a practicing Catholic, president of the Parent's Association at a Catholic school - - - couldn't possibly be a violent drunk and beat his wives and daughters.
So I understand why some of you have a hard time dealing with the stuff that went on in TWI. The denial and discounting of the reality of what happened is a very normal reaction.
geeze, jardinero, having grown up Catholic, I've heard your story before. Not to minimize what happened to you, please, but I could tell the same story about one of my best girlfriends.
That's why I totally don't get the Way thing. I mean, the only other "Chritian oraganization" that has so diligently protected its abusers, is the Catholic Church.
Oldies it isnt about blaming someone else for my actions NEVER has been. Are you being deliberatly obtuse?
I SAID that is MY shame for MY actions that eats me up inside.
It was the mog and his wife that insisted I chose between the baby or God.
I would have gladly taken responsibility and raised that child....
You know as I look back, rather than being so enlightened.......I see tha twi was every bit as barbaric as the ancient aztec cultures and others who insisted on sacraficing their babies to appease their Gods.
Patricia Liberty's "opinion" is implicitly didactic, and it is probably not a contentious point that the subject stories about Wierwille are not about "relationships" that were "non-abusive."
Notwithstanding your invoking of current Texas law criminalizing a clergyman's exploitation of another's "emotional dependency," it is open to question whether "most" of the stories concerning which Linda has admitted belief involve what should be characterized as "sexual assault." That phrase seems to have been used ambiguously on WayDale and this forum.
If "most" stories involve a clandestine drugging, your assertion that "most [stories] are stories of sexual assault" would, of course, attain. That aspect of some stories, however, seems less than even tenuous outside of John Lynn's reported assertions--which are something I think should be investigated if statutes of limitations would not prohibit prosecutions, and some of the alleged perpetrators are still alive.
[This message was edited by Cynic on January 08, 2004 at 1:47.]
[This message was edited by Cynic on January 08, 2004 at 1:49.]
You know that we communicated for a time and I am your friend and that I know where you are coming from in relationship to TWI. You are right pertaining to the women who voluntarily engaged in sexual acvtivity and abortion. There were plenty who wished to sleep with a MOG, and there were plenty who had an abortion so it wouldn't interfere with doing 'the word.' There were also plenty who got abortions because they didn't feel they were ready to deal with parenting at the time too.
I have the privilege of having been with WayDale early on and both GSC's since then plus a few other sites. I've read a multitude of abuse stories by as many women over these near five years. At first, I blew them off as disgruntled folks seeking revenge. I also considered them responsible and accountable for their own actions too.
But when you read hundreds of stories by different women and they are all basically the same three or four stories, then you've got to know they all can't be lying. I felt sick enough to throw up when I realized several of them were women I knew. When it is an anonymus person, it is easy to dismiss it as BS. However, when it is someone you know and you know what kind of person they are and their character, it takes on a whole new meaning.
It is difficult for any abused woman to tell her story here. She is exposing things deep and horrible from the most painful and private parts of her soul. When she does this she is forced in a way to relive the degradation all over again. And worst of all, once she has put it up on the net, she knows there are those who will rip her to shreads saying she is a liar or that it was her own fault. It is like being raped all over again. That is why many don't post the details or won't post at all. I figure for everyone who has said their stories, there are 15 or 30 who can't or won't put themselves thru all the virtual stonings they always seem to get.
You knew Valerie, have you read her full story? (I think it was on GSC 1) Where she talks about who she was, where she came from, then tells of her corps years and details what VP did to her. Or her "pressured" marriage to a total wife abusing jerk. Or how he messed with her head so much she went out and did a number of unseemly things for a while. Fortunately, she got her head together and staightened herself out. That in itself is an incredible story. I wish she would put it in the MY Story forum, but that is a personal decision only she can make.
Oldiesman, I know you and some family have had nothing but good associations with several of the highest ups in TWI, so also did many of us. So also did many including LindaZ and several others who were on staff for years at HQ. However I have seen from the postings where folks spoke of the inner circle of spiritually manure ....er, spiritually mature that TWI was really The Waybylon Mystery Religion for our day and time.
Remember the Babylon book? It showed how they made an outward show of religion to pacify the masses and then had the secret mystery religion of licentiousness for the initiated enlightened ones. It seems VP plagarized that one to. Now mind you, I do believe VP was a true believer.
The thing was, if VP truly believed you could stretch grace and forgiveness so far that it was ok to have sex with anyone, why didn't he preach it to the masses. That would have been intellectually honest anyway. But he knew most people wouldn't buy it and would walk away if they heard it. So to keep them near for his purposes, he taught a more standard form of Bible to the spiritually immature and the deep things of the "great freedom we have in Christ" to those he chose worthy to be the initiated ones of the inner circle.
It is not only intellectually dishonest but there is plenty of evidence to show that he had the predatory instincts down on how to choose many of his victims from those who already had problems in that area. Sadly, predators and molelesters are good at portraying themselves as good and upstanding citizens while doing evil things.
As I have said, VP was a true believer. He beleived what he taught to the masses, and he believed even more what he taught to the spiritually manure inner circle. If that had contradictions between the mature and the immature, then that was what was necessary to keep the immature close in enough until they too might believe big enough to join the initiated ones.
oldiesman,
I am going to tell you a story I've never told anyone, but I know it will affect you. I am not doing this to hurt you but I hope it will help you see more broadly. Again, I am sorry if this hurts you.
It was told me by a long time friend, who had also been a roommate of mine. Very dear and close, if anyone knew his heart, it was me. about 1990 or so, we were talking about the events of the last few years in the ministry. We had several such conversations over several visits including more after this incident. I was trying to make sense of the fog years and he had come right out of corps to work at HQ for those several years.
We talked of a number of things and I'd asked about the rumors of adultry at HQ. He reply there had been some going on and at fairly high levels. I guess someone pushed an effort to clear the air, the guilty parties were supposed to confess their sins to theis spouses. I asked if he knew some names here and he said he didn't because it was supposed to remain private. however he was standing with Wanda Weirwille one night when Don came up with one of the OFC secretaries and admited to Wanda that the secretary had been his mistress of several years.
I was in shock and made him repeat the story and swear to it's truthfulness which he did. I mulled it over several years and didn't know what to make of it until WayDale and GSC. My friend had nothing to gain and could have lost a lot by telling me that story. I believe him about it.
The Way was a beautiful apple with a rotten core. I beleive Don was a good man who fell into his dad's way of thinking as was corrupted into the rotten things at the center. I do not know what route VP took to get to where he did. I can guess it went like so many others did as such is a common curse to humanity.
My guess is VP started out with good intentions to love and serve God. Somewhere at some point one of two things happened. Either he got off on a tangent about grace and forgiveness, or he got caught up in an affair with some woman. If you carry grace and forgiveness too far, you can excuse any evil work. If you get into an affair and like it too much, you will start to find excuses why it wasn't so bad. then you find the bible verses that make it downright forgivable, then absolutely walking in the freedom of Christ, by golly.
Onetime, about the late winter of '73 I think, I was at HQ, about 6 rows back as was my wont, and VP was teaching about how we weren't under the law, but grace. In the middle, he went into one of his sidestory tangents, as he was wont to do. He had been talking about how the Israelites were under the law. then he said how the patriachs were under no law but their own personal ones.
He laid out an example of how in the time before the law, if a man wanted to sleep with all the women in the village, it was ok, there being no law, thus no sin. He then said in a joking way that the husbands of those women just might not be real pleased about it. It would be a sin to them, but it wouldn't be a sin for that man.
It was a good example of sin counciousness and freedom from the same. Little did I realize then how closely that described him and the way he operated. interestingly those words also judge him and find him guilty. Though VP claimed he didn't consider it a sin, he caused many to live in the guilt and degradation of sin conciousness. He knew from Romans you are not to cause others to sin, but did it anyway.
And he taught others in the inner circle to do the same.
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Linda Z
Oldies, first let's be clear on something. Not all the young girls who had sex with twi "leaders" initiated it or even wanted it--I know that for a fact.
I think responsibility and accountability have to be looked at in proportion to who had the power in the situation.
Even in instances when young girls or boys threw themselves at twi leaders, any adult who is in a position of trust, in a profession in which people come to him/her for counseling (minister, doctor, lawyer, psychologist, psychiatrist, teacher come to mind), should know that power (or perceived power) is an attraction, and he/she should be ready to graciously turn away any inappropriate advances or innuendo.
You know darn well I'm not one of those "Wierwille haters," but I sure as hell won't make excuses for any of his actions that, contrary to God's Word, were NOT loving and were NOT right by anyone's standards except those who rationalized that they were okay.
Like I said early in this thread, I'm not here either to excuse or condemn anyone else's sins. That's between each person and God. But I sorta doubt that "that darn 16-year-old girl made me do it" is gonna hold much water.
Linda Z
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alfakat
wow, now he's Alfa-Tom...we better hook you up with an old GTV, bro...you'll love it, 4-cylinder Ferrari for MISTER AlfaTom, oh yeah...
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Dot Matrix
BTW,
I have a friend who has a daughter who did initiate SEX with an older man. She was very cute and built very well. But she was 15!
Now, this guy was not a minister or a Doctor just a good man. Like you hope most are out there.
She sat on his lap and began to behave in a very secuctive manner. He told her to knock it off and he called her mother and told her to come get her daughter. He told her mother she needed help.
Turns out she did need help. She had been raped by a foreign exchange student who then sought help at the French embassy and was not brought to justice when she was 7.
Praise God this man did the right thing. I would like to think 75% of the men out there would. I would like to think that. I find it interesting though how some here seem to think because a young girl acts seductive that she becomes open season.
I don't know why OM you seem to think that would be an okay situation in your book. Makes me wonder... Have you been in that situation?
BTW, nothing personal here...just expressing my thoughts and opinions
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Cynic
Contrary to the position of Patricia Liberty, I think those who are exploited by someone holding a position of power and influence generally do not enjoy an absence of responsibility for their own (non-coerced) actions--despite their having acted at some reduced level of consent due to various relational, psychological and/or social influences.
I do not think the exploiter and the exploited are responsible for things completely equal in kind, or that both are worthy of symmetrical contempt.
I think Wierwille was a self-promoter who exalted himself before a following of ignorant and impressionable (and sinning) teenyboppers, and was a contemptible teenage-girl-exploiting sonofabitch.
*****
I am an ex-Wayfer.
[This message was edited by Cynic on January 07, 2004 at 20:15.]
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alfakat
cynic--apologies, i was confusing you with another Calvinist who was on Waydale and the old gsc, DataRat. None the less, the MOG is the one who is representing GOD here, not some young thing who very well may be coming on to him or someone completely hood-winked by him. Who supposedly has the experience in living Christ-like?? Of course sin is sin and both participated--DUHHH!! a 5 year old knows THAT...we are talking about LEADING and being LED--what is SO hard to wrap one 's mind around about that??????????????????????????????????
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What The Hay
That was very well put, but it's another good example of something that in real life that is much "easier said than done." Unless your a refrigerator, for some people it's darn hard for them to cool down once they get hot. The title/profession you hold is no guarantee of that.
If your drunk, aren't you responsible for your own actions of what you do and also what may happen to you while your under the influence of alcohol? If I run into somebody and kill them while DWOI, chances are good I would lose my license, plus a whole lot of other negative things could happen to me. I highly doubt most people would accept the fact I have some sort of "disease", and therefore I am not responsible for my actions, even if there is a group of people out there that want to classify alcoholism a disease. There's even a group of hostile mothers (M.A.D.D.) who ain't going to let me get off that easily.
So if your a sexpot, what you have could also be called a disease and therefore nobody can hold you responsible for your actions either? I think that is what they are pushing - they call these people "Sex-aholics" - you know, people who are addicted to sex rather than alcohol.
It all sounds like an easy way to get off of being held accountable and responsible for your actions today. Instead of someone being accountable and responsible, let's just say you have this "mysterious disease" there seems to be no real cure for. (But you can send all those research $ to me instead to find a cure for all these diseases - I promise I'll find one. Yeah right!)
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CoolWaters
Dot,
The woman who was to go into the corpse with her hubs...
Good for her husband!
But what happens to the wife whose husband is a yesman? She gets needled and bullied by both "leadership" and her husband. She's pregnant (a perfectly legitimate state of being in a marriage, btw)...her emotions are tied to her hormones that are out of whack...she loves god...she loves "the word"...she loves her husband...she wants the child...but "it" is just a bunch of cells that most probably popped up due to a "trick by the adversary" to get her to turn against god, "the word" and her husband. Those "cells" haven't made themselves known yet...there's no movement or any visible signs of "life"...even "the word" says "it" is not "alive" yet...
So here's her choice: turn against god, "the word" and her husband or rid herself of a nuisance that was probably put there by "the adversary".
Yeah...there's a question in my mind about just what is behind the lack of simple human understanding concerning this...and in my mind it's more to do with guilt...especially when a "hypothetical" (yeah...right...me thinks the man doth protest too much) situation gets tossed into the discussion to confuse the point...
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vickles
When I was pregnant with my daughter I was told to have an abortion and if I didn't my daughter would be maimed for life or born again of the wrong seed.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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CoolWaters
Oh man, vickles...that's terrible cruelty!
Because of heredity and a botched IUD job, I had a hard time conceiving after my daughter was born. When I did conceive, I couldn't carry the child past the first 8 weeks.
For 8 years my hubs and I tried and tried to have a child together. I got "ministered" to many, many times. Usually I was told to relax and let nature take its course.
Then in Alaska I had 3 "mogs" tell me that I would never have another child...that "god" had better plans for my life.
I didn't believe them because I had had a dream about a 4yo little boy that was me and my husband's child. So we kept trying.
Less than a year after the last time a "mog" told me I'd never have another child again, I was pregnant. We didn't tell anybody until the 2nd trimester. Just in case...ya know?
When we told the limb leader of Alaska (G*** K***), he denounced the child in my womb as an "ill-gotten child of satan". Of course the other "leadership" in Alaska felt the same way.
That child is now 17yo. He has been nothing but a great joy to me and my husband. In fact, we often wonder if he is our child at all...that maybe he is an under cover angel or something.
:)--> He's never been in trouble. He's very respectful and easy-going. He's brilliant beyond our comprehension. He's a healing presence in many, many lives. He's just plain unbelieveable.
I'm so glad we didn't listen to the MOG...!
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excathedra
okay okay cynic, what the hay, oldiesman et al.
i was not a teeny bopper wanting to "do" the man of god
i told him my life's story of child sexual abuse and that i was so thankful to have him as my "father" in the word
i NEVER went to him to offer myself or anything like that
i NEVER thought it would be a feather in my cap or a privilege to be with the man of god
i loved him as a father. i thought he loved me with the love of god
well he did explain the love of god for me was to teach me sexually how to get over my child abuse. and i told him i could not handle that, i was not spiritually "there"
guess what. from age 18 to 23, i believe, he continued to counsel me and finally i ended up a victim although i can't remember much of that night
i don't know if i'm explaining this well
but he .... broke my heart, my trust, my spirit
and never once did i think it would be a privilege to be a groupie
so anyway i feel hurt
and betrayed
and exploited
and it don't think it was fair that he used my ....edupness for his lust ..... whatever....
?
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excathedra
okay, let's look at it this way
either dr. wierwille in his position as my clergyman, man of god, minister,whatever-you-wanna-call it, was either correct in his evaluation of my need at the time, after i had opened my heart to him, and i have not faithfully renewed my mind and walked graciously on the healing that he ministered unto me..... or .... he erred in his diagnosis which caused these haunting memories for the last twenty plus years
what do you think ?
?
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LG
excathedra,
I think you're very patient and kind in dealing with people who don't get the abuse stories. It shows a strength beyond what you may think you have.
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Tom Strange
some people just don't get it... if YOU are in a position of authority and stewardship over someone, the proper 'undershepherding' technique is not to succumb to the desires of the flesh...
that said, no human is a refrigerator, that's true, but weakness (momentary, one time or many) does not excuse the action(s)...
like it or not, and I'm not totally excusing the unbridled lust of someone who may put someone in a position, the ultimate responsibility and therefore blame, lies on the one in power...
they should not assume that power if they cannot handle it.
that's all I have to say (for a while anyway).
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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jardinero
Oh geez, you guys - - come on!!!! It wasn't just VPW and LCM - - it was other leaders (BOT) and region and limb guys & gals too!!!! A one time indiscretion or succumbing to temptation is one thing - - but this went on for YEARS, with MULTIPLE seductions, rapes, and other very inappropriate behavior. They put THEMSELVES in compromising situations because THAT IS WHAT THEY WANTED!!! Plain and simple. It ain't that hard, folks if you have your eyes open!
And none of these guys or others who knew what was going on, had the balls to set up an accountability system!!!!! Why? you would ask???? Because they had NO INTENTION of stopping. You got that???? This was deliberate, willful, planned actions. MULTIPLE TIMES. MULTIPLE OCCURRENCES. MANY LEADERS. Many women used.
You know in the secular world - - and I'm not even talking religious organizations here. You cross that line and you're FIRED. No questions asked. It's stated in employee handbooks about sexual harrassment, etc. I did marketing for years as a female in male dominated industries and had to entertain clients. You'd better believe there were guys that wanted a piece of a**. And you know what??? I represented my company and had to draw very clear demarcations for these guys. This is business fellas. Period. No compromise. Don't even go there. End of subject. You just make it perfectly clear it's not even an option. And if they don't understand "no", you just remove yourself from the situation. Most of the time you would never even allow yourself to be one on one alone anywhere. Always in public. Always above board. Business is business.
And let me tell you, even when there is a case of sexual harrassment (or when a manager crosses a line with a subordinate) - - you better believe it is taken VERY SERIOUSLY. It is dealt with quickly and severely. But that is because the violated people finally have been given a voice. A few brave souls came forward and refused to be swept under the rug and took these cases to court and gave others the courage to tell their stories too. And finally, the U.S. government and Corporate America had to make LAWS to protect people in the workplace - - not because it never happened - - - - BUT BECAUSE IT WAS HAPPENING SO MUCH!!!!!
But, oh no. No accountability in TWI. At 18, after just getting in the Word, I had a Limb Leader come over to talk to me about going WOW. He was very inappropriate and talked very graphicly sexually about what he liked about my body. He was married with a child, too. I told him flat out I wasn't interested in talking like that and asked him to leave. He was finally removed as the Limb Leader after numerous liaisons with females in his limb - - and another guy was sent in to clean up all the messes!!!!!
As a single, female twig leader, I had single guys in my twig and in my area. You know what???? We never crossed that line. I didn't date them (with the exception of my boyfriend who I dated before I got in the Word), didn't come on to them and if they were coming on to me, I got it right back on topic. Don't even go there, pal.
So you guys are trying to tell me a "clergyman" who's been around a "ministry" for a lot of years, can't make that kinda judgment call???? Makes you wonder what the hell kinda mininstry they had going, huh???? And why there was never any clearly stated disciplinary policies written up for "leaders" who crossed that line - - like most other organizations outside TWI have.
All of this stuff was shrouded in secrecy - - BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT!!!!!!
This is not rocket science, OM and others. You guys want to perpetuate your Way fantasy. Yeah, well I had a great twig too. Wonderful people. I thought VP was a nice guy too at the beginning. I loved learning about the Bible. But I heard about these sexual stories far too frequently for my liking. And if the Internet had been around in the 70s, well your fantasy world would have come crashing down all the sooner. You can discount the truth all you want and try to perpetuate stereotypical crap like "these girls really wanted it" and let your MOGs off the hook, but there's just too much evidence to the contrary. With the Internet, we've hit critical mass - - too much to discount anymore. So you can keep your nice warm, fuzzy memories and go back in your turtle shells like the truth doesn't really exist, but it won't change the truth. This **** happened from the 1970s and for decades after and was too widespread to refute any longer.
These guys had opportunities to change, to come clean, to repent, to set up accountability structures - - over a period of decades when they were confronted - - - and the truth of the matter is, THEY DID NOT CHOOSE TO. They continued to hide their sinful behavior and the boys club and the party lifestyle continued, leaving shattered lives in their wake.
So if our government has laws to protect victims, don't you think, in the very least, our religious leaders would take these type of horrible things seriously????? The children of men are wiser than the sons of God.
Dot, Excathedra, Sunny, and others - - you are very brave to tell your stories. I pray for your healing and that your stories can help others who have been hurt to sort out their own lives and confusion from what occurred.
Jardinero
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LG
Patricia Liberty?s essay is not a teaching, as oldiesman describes it. It is certainly not gospel truth. It is a statement of opinion. It is arguable that a minister and congregant can have a sexual relationship that is truly voluntary and non-abusive. It is pretty much a certainty that not all women (or men) who have sexual relations with a minister are blameless. That still doesn?t excuse the minister, who bears the greater responsibility, and therefore the greater blame.
The abuse stories to which Linda referred in her opening post are not stories of voluntary, non-abusive relationships. All are stories of abuse, and most are stories of sexual assault. I believe the stories I?ve read here and will assume that they are true in what follows.
In present-day Texas, what Wierwille did is punishable by imprisonment for 2 to 20 years, plus a fine of up to $10,000.00, for each offense. Someone with as many offenses as Wierwille could conceivably be put away for life. Whether or not drugged drinks were used wouldn't matter, except to raise time of imprisonment. All that is required is that ?the actor is a clergyman who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person's emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman's professional character as spiritual adviser.? There?s no way around it. That describes Wierwille in every single one of the sexual abuse stories I?ve read.
Lest anyone be tempted to go off on a sidetrack about laws, the law is not the major point. The seriousness of the abuse is. At the very best, Wierwille took advantage of vulnerable women who looked to him for spiritual guidance. Rather than helping them, he used them to satisfy his own lusts. He didn?t do that just once, or a few times. He did it repeatedly, over a period of years, and taught others to do the same. How anyone who claims to believe the Bible can honor the man is beyond me.
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Cynic
I wish Wierwille were alive to experience the light of public exposure.
I think some criminal investigators should evaluate John Lynn's assertions about there having been druggings of some that Wierwille desired as sex-chattel.
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jardinero
Why Some People Don't Get the Abuse Stories
I'm going to tell you a personal story and maybe this will help you relate.
I was raised in an alcoholic family. I am the youngest of 3 girls. My father was very violent with my mother and my sisters and I from my very first memory of my family life. Numerous times, my mother had to call the police to protect us.
My father would go on drunken tirades in the middle of the night and pull us out of bed and beat us, punch us, pull our hair, whip my oldest sister. But as in many abuse situations, the silent rule of "don't ever talk about it" dominated our lives. Our neighbors, friends and extended family didn't even know what was happening in our private little hell.
I recently went to the 75th birthday party for our closest neighbor across the street. She and her husband had no idea what was going on at our house for years and when they finally found out, years later, they were in such disbelief, because my dad was like Dr. Jeckell and Mr. Hyde. During the day, he was the most wonderful, congenial person you'd ever want to meet. At night after he got home, he drank himself into a stupor and became increasingly violdent.
My folks got divorced when I was 8. My father remarried and when I started high school, he got custody of us. He started beating up on his 2nd wife even before they got married, but she hoped she could change him. Well, the violence only got worse as we got older. I started standing up to him and fighting back and running away from home.
At the time, I went to a nice, catholic high school. I was a good student and popular with my classmates and my teachers. And guess who became the president of the Parent's Association my last 2 years of high school???? My father. He was a great fundraiser and everyone loved him, but no one knew the dark secrets of what went on in our home at night. I'd go to school with bruises or so exhausted after being up all night listening to his tirades.
And you know what???? I could never tell my friends what was going on. Well, I tried, but guess what???? They couldn't even begin to imagine what I was talking about. And neither could they believe it.
It wasn't until my Senior year and my father tried to kill me one night. I finally wrestled myself free and ran over to a neighbor's house and called the police. I had just turned 18 and could legally press charges, which I did and had him put in jail.
Next morning, I had to go to school to take midterms, which I was in no shape to take, so went to the Dean and Principal to tell them what happened. Guess what??? They couldn't begin to believe my story, until I took off my jacket and showed them the bruises and finger marks around my neck.
I moved out and lived happily ever after except for a 16 year stint in a cult.
;)-->
But my point for sharing this is that, back in the 50s, 60s and early 70s, abuse and domestic violence wasn't talked about. My mother was shamed and shunned when people found out what was going on, as though she had brought it on herself. My sister's nuns forbid her from speaking about my father when she said that's where her bruises came from. Our friends thought we just had vivid imaginations and wanted attention or something. Middle class families just didn't have these kind of problems.
We were always made to feel like WE were the problem, cuz surely a nice man like my dad, a successful business man, a practicing Catholic, president of the Parent's Association at a Catholic school - - - couldn't possibly be a violent drunk and beat his wives and daughters.
So I understand why some of you have a hard time dealing with the stuff that went on in TWI. The denial and discounting of the reality of what happened is a very normal reaction.
It's just the wrong reaction.
Jardinero
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ex10
geeze, jardinero, having grown up Catholic, I've heard your story before. Not to minimize what happened to you, please, but I could tell the same story about one of my best girlfriends.
That's why I totally don't get the Way thing. I mean, the only other "Chritian oraganization" that has so diligently protected its abusers, is the Catholic Church.
Makes one go hum, doesn't it?
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rascal
Oldies it isnt about blaming someone else for my actions NEVER has been. Are you being deliberatly obtuse?
I SAID that is MY shame for MY actions that eats me up inside.
It was the mog and his wife that insisted I chose between the baby or God.
I would have gladly taken responsibility and raised that child....
You know as I look back, rather than being so enlightened.......I see tha twi was every bit as barbaric as the ancient aztec cultures and others who insisted on sacraficing their babies to appease their Gods.
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Cynic
Long Gone,
Patricia Liberty's "opinion" is implicitly didactic, and it is probably not a contentious point that the subject stories about Wierwille are not about "relationships" that were "non-abusive."
Notwithstanding your invoking of current Texas law criminalizing a clergyman's exploitation of another's "emotional dependency," it is open to question whether "most" of the stories concerning which Linda has admitted belief involve what should be characterized as "sexual assault." That phrase seems to have been used ambiguously on WayDale and this forum.
If "most" stories involve a clandestine drugging, your assertion that "most [stories] are stories of sexual assault" would, of course, attain. That aspect of some stories, however, seems less than even tenuous outside of John Lynn's reported assertions--which are something I think should be investigated if statutes of limitations would not prohibit prosecutions, and some of the alleged perpetrators are still alive.
[This message was edited by Cynic on January 08, 2004 at 1:47.]
[This message was edited by Cynic on January 08, 2004 at 1:49.]
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Cynic
Vickles,
What detestable false prophets!
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dabobbada
oldiesman,
You know that we communicated for a time and I am your friend and that I know where you are coming from in relationship to TWI. You are right pertaining to the women who voluntarily engaged in sexual acvtivity and abortion. There were plenty who wished to sleep with a MOG, and there were plenty who had an abortion so it wouldn't interfere with doing 'the word.' There were also plenty who got abortions because they didn't feel they were ready to deal with parenting at the time too.
I have the privilege of having been with WayDale early on and both GSC's since then plus a few other sites. I've read a multitude of abuse stories by as many women over these near five years. At first, I blew them off as disgruntled folks seeking revenge. I also considered them responsible and accountable for their own actions too.
But when you read hundreds of stories by different women and they are all basically the same three or four stories, then you've got to know they all can't be lying. I felt sick enough to throw up when I realized several of them were women I knew. When it is an anonymus person, it is easy to dismiss it as BS. However, when it is someone you know and you know what kind of person they are and their character, it takes on a whole new meaning.
It is difficult for any abused woman to tell her story here. She is exposing things deep and horrible from the most painful and private parts of her soul. When she does this she is forced in a way to relive the degradation all over again. And worst of all, once she has put it up on the net, she knows there are those who will rip her to shreads saying she is a liar or that it was her own fault. It is like being raped all over again. That is why many don't post the details or won't post at all. I figure for everyone who has said their stories, there are 15 or 30 who can't or won't put themselves thru all the virtual stonings they always seem to get.
You knew Valerie, have you read her full story? (I think it was on GSC 1) Where she talks about who she was, where she came from, then tells of her corps years and details what VP did to her. Or her "pressured" marriage to a total wife abusing jerk. Or how he messed with her head so much she went out and did a number of unseemly things for a while. Fortunately, she got her head together and staightened herself out. That in itself is an incredible story. I wish she would put it in the MY Story forum, but that is a personal decision only she can make.
Oldiesman, I know you and some family have had nothing but good associations with several of the highest ups in TWI, so also did many of us. So also did many including LindaZ and several others who were on staff for years at HQ. However I have seen from the postings where folks spoke of the inner circle of spiritually manure ....er, spiritually mature that TWI was really The Waybylon Mystery Religion for our day and time.
Remember the Babylon book? It showed how they made an outward show of religion to pacify the masses and then had the secret mystery religion of licentiousness for the initiated enlightened ones. It seems VP plagarized that one to. Now mind you, I do believe VP was a true believer.
The thing was, if VP truly believed you could stretch grace and forgiveness so far that it was ok to have sex with anyone, why didn't he preach it to the masses. That would have been intellectually honest anyway. But he knew most people wouldn't buy it and would walk away if they heard it. So to keep them near for his purposes, he taught a more standard form of Bible to the spiritually immature and the deep things of the "great freedom we have in Christ" to those he chose worthy to be the initiated ones of the inner circle.
It is not only intellectually dishonest but there is plenty of evidence to show that he had the predatory instincts down on how to choose many of his victims from those who already had problems in that area. Sadly, predators and molelesters are good at portraying themselves as good and upstanding citizens while doing evil things.
As I have said, VP was a true believer. He beleived what he taught to the masses, and he believed even more what he taught to the spiritually manure inner circle. If that had contradictions between the mature and the immature, then that was what was necessary to keep the immature close in enough until they too might believe big enough to join the initiated ones.
oldiesman,
I am going to tell you a story I've never told anyone, but I know it will affect you. I am not doing this to hurt you but I hope it will help you see more broadly. Again, I am sorry if this hurts you.
It was told me by a long time friend, who had also been a roommate of mine. Very dear and close, if anyone knew his heart, it was me. about 1990 or so, we were talking about the events of the last few years in the ministry. We had several such conversations over several visits including more after this incident. I was trying to make sense of the fog years and he had come right out of corps to work at HQ for those several years.
We talked of a number of things and I'd asked about the rumors of adultry at HQ. He reply there had been some going on and at fairly high levels. I guess someone pushed an effort to clear the air, the guilty parties were supposed to confess their sins to theis spouses. I asked if he knew some names here and he said he didn't because it was supposed to remain private. however he was standing with Wanda Weirwille one night when Don came up with one of the OFC secretaries and admited to Wanda that the secretary had been his mistress of several years.
I was in shock and made him repeat the story and swear to it's truthfulness which he did. I mulled it over several years and didn't know what to make of it until WayDale and GSC. My friend had nothing to gain and could have lost a lot by telling me that story. I believe him about it.
The Way was a beautiful apple with a rotten core. I beleive Don was a good man who fell into his dad's way of thinking as was corrupted into the rotten things at the center. I do not know what route VP took to get to where he did. I can guess it went like so many others did as such is a common curse to humanity.
My guess is VP started out with good intentions to love and serve God. Somewhere at some point one of two things happened. Either he got off on a tangent about grace and forgiveness, or he got caught up in an affair with some woman. If you carry grace and forgiveness too far, you can excuse any evil work. If you get into an affair and like it too much, you will start to find excuses why it wasn't so bad. then you find the bible verses that make it downright forgivable, then absolutely walking in the freedom of Christ, by golly.
Onetime, about the late winter of '73 I think, I was at HQ, about 6 rows back as was my wont, and VP was teaching about how we weren't under the law, but grace. In the middle, he went into one of his sidestory tangents, as he was wont to do. He had been talking about how the Israelites were under the law. then he said how the patriachs were under no law but their own personal ones.
He laid out an example of how in the time before the law, if a man wanted to sleep with all the women in the village, it was ok, there being no law, thus no sin. He then said in a joking way that the husbands of those women just might not be real pleased about it. It would be a sin to them, but it wouldn't be a sin for that man.
It was a good example of sin counciousness and freedom from the same. Little did I realize then how closely that described him and the way he operated. interestingly those words also judge him and find him guilty. Though VP claimed he didn't consider it a sin, he caused many to live in the guilt and degradation of sin conciousness. He knew from Romans you are not to cause others to sin, but did it anyway.
And he taught others in the inner circle to do the same.
Sorry oldies, but it is the truth.
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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oldiesman
Hey Bob, thanks for sharing.
No, I didn't read Valerie's full story. Could you give directions to where it is? I'd like to read it.
Thanks bro
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dabobbada
Sorry oldies, I don't know where it is at. I beleive it was at the old Greasespot and I don't think it exists anymore.
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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