I agree, George, that there are people who fit into that category, but I think most of them avoid GS like the plague because their current "leaders" have told them it's "evil," "profitless," "all a pack of lies," whatever.
I think most of the people (not all, but most) on GS have shed that "I know all the truth" BS and are just figuring life out, each at his/her own pace. I think most of us are a lot more concerned about people than about thinking we have all the answers.
I think many of us started out as VPW defenders. For me, it wasn't so much that I defended him, I just didn't want to believe the extent of his evil. It took about a year of being out to finally get it.
Now I'm sorta like the person who has quit smoking ... you know, us recovered smokers are much more critical of smokers than those who never smoked! I may be overly-critical of VPW at this point in my life. To me, most of what he taught is suspect and anything good that he taught wasn't his own. I haven't found the balance yet, if there is one.
This thread and the other one about VP vs. LCM are getting me mixed up...
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
quote:How about the ones who were abused but didn't KNOW that they were abused such as the young girls who were advised to get abortions by clergy.
These are rhetorical questions and don't need to be answered but food for thought:
If a young girl can be influenced by someone to get an abortion, were they really ready for motherhood to begin with?
Whose decision was it, right or wrong, to get the abortion?
Would it have been better to have a minister preach that abortion is murder, then have the burden of bearing a child you didn't really want or plan for?
Oldies...this isn`t retorical...it happened to at LEAST three women on this thread alone damn you.... When many of us ... far to many of us discovered that we were pregnant, we were told that we were letting a bunch of cells interfere with our duty to God.
Everyone I have talked to had the same leverage used on them...twi had it down to a really fine schpeal
We were told when we were involved in some sort of program at the time, that God himself expected us to honor our commitment...when you vow a vow yadda yadda
You showed your willingness to serve ...your love for God, your spiritual commitment and maturity by obeying leaderships directives....there was no room to wiggle, if you did not have an abortion, you didn`t love God and you were bringing shame to yourself and letting down God and his ministry....you were a LIAR for not finishing the program you were in! God wouldn`t be able to look at you...much less your bretheren.
This ISN`T a case of girls being counceled...there was no councel involved oldies we were forced into an untenable situation. There was no choice if you loved God...
You obviously have not endured the horrors of an abortion....the soul sickening degredation....the shame, the pain...it was especially awfull if you wanted that baby with every fiber of your being....everything whithin you felt that this wrong...but your minister, the man of God that you were told that you MUST obey in order to grow spiritually, INSISTED that this was the only acceptable course of action ... that you must take it, orbegin the decent into darkness...It boiled down to the baby or God which was more important...my God what an awfull choice...
Oldies, I don`t expect you to ever get it....
The abuse lies in the fact that we were forced to do something abhorrant to us, forced to destroy children that we wanted ...we were left little choice, it had NOTHING to do with being whether or not we were ready for mother hood or not...orwhether we wanted to love and raise that child you presumptive jerk.
We did AWFULL things because these ministers claimed they spoke for God .... Geeze can you imagine God almighty??? *Your doing WHAT in my name?????? You think I want you to do WHAT??????? If he is capable of emotion, I think he must have cried with each and every one of us as we brokenly obeyed these horrible directives .... destroyed our children and our souls because we believed that HE required it of us....it is just SICK
What is as almost as sick .... is trying to find a way to justify their heinous behavior....
[This message was edited by rascal on January 07, 2004 at 14:49.]
Anyone who was in TWI past Session 12 of PFAL had to have seen the mandatory conformity impressed on its members, whether done with a frothing rant from leadership, or a smiling bliss-ninny telling you 300 times why you shouldn't say "Christmas". The Corps got it worse than anyone, and unfortunately, way too many of them passed it right down the tree.
The Secret Signature of the Day has been cancelled by the HTML Police.
OM, the questions are rhetorical to you...because you never had to face such a situation and you never will have to face such a situation.
I've often wondered if you have any compassion at all in yourself...but then I've often wondered if your constant blame the victim mentality is a cover for your guilt at what you've done to people in the name of "the ministry"...and then I find myself wondering if this is just a game to you...a way to entertain yourself.
BTW...
NOBODY is EVER ready for parenthood with a first child...and if you have ever been an honest parent, you would have to admit this...
A participant decides to have sex, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else.
A participant decides to have sex without using protection, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else.
A participant decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, but the participant bears no responsibility for getting pregnant. Blame someone else.
A participant decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, then's advised to get an abortion and decides to get one, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else.
Question:
Is there any point at which a participant bears at least SOME responsibility for their own actions?
OM... perhaps I could agree somewhat (and I do mean somewhat) with your thinking IF IT HADN'T BEEN A SITUATION OF SOMEONE IN A POSITION OF EMOTIONAL INFLUENCE (A SPIRITUAL ADVISOR, LEADER OR WHATEVER) OVER THE PERSON WHO GOT PREGNANT... (not shouting, just emphasizing)...
THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE (now there I was raising my voice).
IMO you can't just look at it like "two people who made a joint decision"... it just aint like that... there was inlfluence involved emotionally... and it does haunt you... still does...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
om---why is THAT the big sticking point for you???do you have any idea what the logic is behind statuatory rape law, for instance?? we KNOW there is a responsibility on the part of the 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 year old woman----BUT what is the greater responsibility and the "greater" sin??
answer that, om--it's really the ONLY question that truly matters... by the by, have any daughters yourself, om?....I thought not....
And if we adhere to Rev. Liberty's teaching, the participant could even INITIATE the contact, but the responsibility and entire blame for the incident and resulting consequences falls on the minister alone?
Ok, whatever...
BTW, nothing personal here...just expressing my thoughts and opinions.
quote:The Way was a good thing that went bad. Not an evilly devised program to farm sex slaves and get money. It ended up that way, but I believe it started with a desire to provide something besides empty religion to people that wanted something besides dull denominationalism that rules with heavy hand. It became a denomination that ruled with a WAY heavy hand, to be sure.
My man Jonny, I'm not going to hammer you for saying something positive about TWI... and heck, about all I know about you is that you've spent a lot of cows to gain many wives... that being said...
I kind of have the feelings you described, but I have them towards the PEOPLE that were out witnessing and running fellowships and classes back then... not the organization.
It was the PEOPLE who made it something good and blessed because (by and large) the PEOPLE who had nothing but the purest intentions and hearts... the PEOPLE in the twigs, in the field, gave an organization founded on lies and deceit goodness and caused it to be blessed because the PEOPLE were doing the work of God...
Not the organization or those who ran it for their own sinful benefit...
now... back to our regularly sheduled program... Gawd Bless!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
ok, om, so the hot little 15, 16, 19, 21, 23 year old THROWS herself at THE MAN OF GOD FOR OUR DAY AND TIME....and he does what?????? Is HE some kind of FREAKING neophyte that he drops trow cuz some starry-eyed kid has a fantasy about herself and a man 2 and a half times her age??!!?? say what??? get the F real, fer kraps sake!!! What kind of GROWN-UP man is that kind of spineless *****???? if so, NO BUSINESS IN THE OVERSEE-ER'S FUNCTION, NEH??? cmon---sheeeeshhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DISCLAIMER: I hope to h you all reading my last post understand what I wrote about hot little teenage girls was an extreme example to make a point--you do see that, I trust....
For what it's worth, I've never been attracted to nor approached by clergy for sex. But, I totally GET that some young girls could fall for someone in authority that way and that the clergyman, in my opinion, is responsible to put on the brakes. If he doesn't, HE is to blame. You can't justify, in any world, fleecing the flock.
Cynic: I believe you were never an eye-witness to twi madness, so you are a mere speculator, correct?? so while om's point is interesting in a lab, it has little value in what happened in real life, eh???
I agree with what you and Rascal have been saying.
I agree with your assessment of the OM. Even when one of the people he "knew" got on here and shared, he still remains in an "I hate the victim" school of thought.
We had a girl take Momentus and she got weird like that, nobody could ever talk to her again about anything. She never had compassion again, it was weird. Now, it may not DO that to ALL people but I have seen changes like that in the few I knew that went through EST/Momentus. I had a woman at work try to get me fired and I was angry. She The momentus grad insisted it was not about "that". I was mad about something my parents had done to me and once I faced "it was my problem" I could be free of that evil doer at work. No matter what the problem, if you had a problem it was YOUR fault. She lost all her friends and eventually got fired herself...
Funny, it was her fault.
It just reminds me of her. She was beyond any ability to reason with. Funny, cause she had her masters in pyscology and was very compassionate until that class.
Why argue with him? Same sh it different day.
I have a girlfriend who was married to a corps grad and she was to go into the corps for one year with her hubs. They had already made the commitment. Had nothing to do with sinful sex, no birth contol while unmarrieds were frolicking....
They were told "Once you Vow a Vow...."
They were told the child may be retarded or bring evil upon them if they did not keep their vows. They were heavily pushed.
Fortuatley, her husband was NEVER a "YES" man and he told them to back the F off!
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Linda Z
Geo. said: "Why don't they get it?
Because they care more about their sacred
'doctrine' than they do about people."
I agree, George, that there are people who fit into that category, but I think most of them avoid GS like the plague because their current "leaders" have told them it's "evil," "profitless," "all a pack of lies," whatever.
I think most of the people (not all, but most) on GS have shed that "I know all the truth" BS and are just figuring life out, each at his/her own pace. I think most of us are a lot more concerned about people than about thinking we have all the answers.
Linda Z
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Hope R.
I think many of us started out as VPW defenders. For me, it wasn't so much that I defended him, I just didn't want to believe the extent of his evil. It took about a year of being out to finally get it.
Now I'm sorta like the person who has quit smoking ... you know, us recovered smokers are much more critical of smokers than those who never smoked! I may be overly-critical of VPW at this point in my life. To me, most of what he taught is suspect and anything good that he taught wasn't his own. I haven't found the balance yet, if there is one.
This thread and the other one about VP vs. LCM are getting me mixed up...
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
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oldiesman
These are rhetorical questions and don't need to be answered but food for thought:
If a young girl can be influenced by someone to get an abortion, were they really ready for motherhood to begin with?
Whose decision was it, right or wrong, to get the abortion?
Would it have been better to have a minister preach that abortion is murder, then have the burden of bearing a child you didn't really want or plan for?
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rascal
Oldies...this isn`t retorical...it happened to at LEAST three women on this thread alone damn you.... When many of us ... far to many of us discovered that we were pregnant, we were told that we were letting a bunch of cells interfere with our duty to God.
Everyone I have talked to had the same leverage used on them...twi had it down to a really fine schpeal
We were told when we were involved in some sort of program at the time, that God himself expected us to honor our commitment...when you vow a vow yadda yadda
You showed your willingness to serve ...your love for God, your spiritual commitment and maturity by obeying leaderships directives....there was no room to wiggle, if you did not have an abortion, you didn`t love God and you were bringing shame to yourself and letting down God and his ministry....you were a LIAR for not finishing the program you were in! God wouldn`t be able to look at you...much less your bretheren.
This ISN`T a case of girls being counceled...there was no councel involved oldies we were forced into an untenable situation. There was no choice if you loved God...
You obviously have not endured the horrors of an abortion....the soul sickening degredation....the shame, the pain...it was especially awfull if you wanted that baby with every fiber of your being....everything whithin you felt that this wrong...but your minister, the man of God that you were told that you MUST obey in order to grow spiritually, INSISTED that this was the only acceptable course of action ... that you must take it, orbegin the decent into darkness...It boiled down to the baby or God which was more important...my God what an awfull choice...
Oldies, I don`t expect you to ever get it....
The abuse lies in the fact that we were forced to do something abhorrant to us, forced to destroy children that we wanted ...we were left little choice, it had NOTHING to do with being whether or not we were ready for mother hood or not...orwhether we wanted to love and raise that child you presumptive jerk.
We did AWFULL things because these ministers claimed they spoke for God .... Geeze can you imagine God almighty??? *Your doing WHAT in my name?????? You think I want you to do WHAT??????? If he is capable of emotion, I think he must have cried with each and every one of us as we brokenly obeyed these horrible directives .... destroyed our children and our souls because we believed that HE required it of us....it is just SICK
What is as almost as sick .... is trying to find a way to justify their heinous behavior....
[This message was edited by rascal on January 07, 2004 at 14:49.]
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Zixar
Rascal's right. It wasn't just a case of:
Victim: "Durn, I'm pregnant!"
Rev: "Say, why not get an abortion?"
Victim: "Good idea!"
Anyone who was in TWI past Session 12 of PFAL had to have seen the mandatory conformity impressed on its members, whether done with a frothing rant from leadership, or a smiling bliss-ninny telling you 300 times why you shouldn't say "Christmas". The Corps got it worse than anyone, and unfortunately, way too many of them passed it right down the tree.
The Secret Signature of the Day has been cancelled by the HTML Police.
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CoolWaters
OM, the questions are rhetorical to you...because you never had to face such a situation and you never will have to face such a situation.
I've often wondered if you have any compassion at all in yourself...but then I've often wondered if your constant blame the victim mentality is a cover for your guilt at what you've done to people in the name of "the ministry"...and then I find myself wondering if this is just a game to you...a way to entertain yourself.
BTW...
NOBODY is EVER ready for parenthood with a first child...and if you have ever been an honest parent, you would have to admit this...
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CoolWaters
rascal, I did a PT to you.
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oldiesman
A participant decides to have sex, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else.
A participant decides to have sex without using protection, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else.
A participant decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, but the participant bears no responsibility for getting pregnant. Blame someone else.
A participant decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, then's advised to get an abortion and decides to get one, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else.
Question:
Is there any point at which a participant bears at least SOME responsibility for their own actions?
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Tom Strange
OM... perhaps I could agree somewhat (and I do mean somewhat) with your thinking IF IT HADN'T BEEN A SITUATION OF SOMEONE IN A POSITION OF EMOTIONAL INFLUENCE (A SPIRITUAL ADVISOR, LEADER OR WHATEVER) OVER THE PERSON WHO GOT PREGNANT... (not shouting, just emphasizing)...
THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE (now there I was raising my voice).
IMO you can't just look at it like "two people who made a joint decision"... it just aint like that... there was inlfluence involved emotionally... and it does haunt you... still does...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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alfakat
om---why is THAT the big sticking point for you???do you have any idea what the logic is behind statuatory rape law, for instance?? we KNOW there is a responsibility on the part of the 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 year old woman----BUT what is the greater responsibility and the "greater" sin??
answer that, om--it's really the ONLY question that truly matters... by the by, have any daughters yourself, om?....I thought not....
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oldiesman
And if we adhere to Rev. Liberty's teaching, the participant could even INITIATE the contact, but the responsibility and entire blame for the incident and resulting consequences falls on the minister alone?
Ok, whatever...
BTW, nothing personal here...just expressing my thoughts and opinions.
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Tom Strange
JonnyLingosaid:
My man Jonny, I'm not going to hammer you for saying something positive about TWI... and heck, about all I know about you is that you've spent a lot of cows to gain many wives... that being said...
I kind of have the feelings you described, but I have them towards the PEOPLE that were out witnessing and running fellowships and classes back then... not the organization.
It was the PEOPLE who made it something good and blessed because (by and large) the PEOPLE who had nothing but the purest intentions and hearts... the PEOPLE in the twigs, in the field, gave an organization founded on lies and deceit goodness and caused it to be blessed because the PEOPLE were doing the work of God...
Not the organization or those who ran it for their own sinful benefit...
now... back to our regularly sheduled program... Gawd Bless!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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alfakat
ok, om, so the hot little 15, 16, 19, 21, 23 year old THROWS herself at THE MAN OF GOD FOR OUR DAY AND TIME....and he does what?????? Is HE some kind of FREAKING neophyte that he drops trow cuz some starry-eyed kid has a fantasy about herself and a man 2 and a half times her age??!!?? say what??? get the F real, fer kraps sake!!! What kind of GROWN-UP man is that kind of spineless *****???? if so, NO BUSINESS IN THE OVERSEE-ER'S FUNCTION, NEH??? cmon---sheeeeshhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tom Strange
so... aflakcat... tell us what you really think?
is the car gassed up?
I've got the beers and it's still our birthday week...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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alfakat
DISCLAIMER: I hope to h you all reading my last post understand what I wrote about hot little teenage girls was an extreme example to make a point--you do see that, I trust....
ps car gassed and ready, bro...
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Tom Strange
I was beginning to wonder if you'd been hanging around the food court at the mall a little too much... not that I'd know about that...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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alfakat
would that be re: teenagers in question, ts???
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Cynic
Oldiesman has a point.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
For what it's worth, I've never been attracted to nor approached by clergy for sex. But, I totally GET that some young girls could fall for someone in authority that way and that the clergyman, in my opinion, is responsible to put on the brakes. If he doesn't, HE is to blame. You can't justify, in any world, fleecing the flock.
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Tom Strange
what point would that be cynic?
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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alfakat
Cynic: I believe you were never an eye-witness to twi madness, so you are a mere speculator, correct?? so while om's point is interesting in a lab, it has little value in what happened in real life, eh???
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excathedra
cynic's not a wayfer ? excuse me, ex-wayfer ?
?
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Dot Matrix
CW-
I agree with what you and Rascal have been saying.
I agree with your assessment of the OM. Even when one of the people he "knew" got on here and shared, he still remains in an "I hate the victim" school of thought.
We had a girl take Momentus and she got weird like that, nobody could ever talk to her again about anything. She never had compassion again, it was weird. Now, it may not DO that to ALL people but I have seen changes like that in the few I knew that went through EST/Momentus. I had a woman at work try to get me fired and I was angry. She The momentus grad insisted it was not about "that". I was mad about something my parents had done to me and once I faced "it was my problem" I could be free of that evil doer at work. No matter what the problem, if you had a problem it was YOUR fault. She lost all her friends and eventually got fired herself...
Funny, it was her fault.
It just reminds me of her. She was beyond any ability to reason with. Funny, cause she had her masters in pyscology and was very compassionate until that class.
Why argue with him? Same sh it different day.
I have a girlfriend who was married to a corps grad and she was to go into the corps for one year with her hubs. They had already made the commitment. Had nothing to do with sinful sex, no birth contol while unmarrieds were frolicking....
They were told "Once you Vow a Vow...."
They were told the child may be retarded or bring evil upon them if they did not keep their vows. They were heavily pushed.
Fortuatley, her husband was NEVER a "YES" man and he told them to back the F off!
But yes, it was pushed on people.
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Tom Strange
meseestorEx... wanna go cruisin' with me and aflakcat in the little red car? we got beer!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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