Someone else posted on this before and said that VPW was stilling hitting on some woman he knew almost right up until he died or somthing...
It is on some thread some where about a year ago, maybe.
At the time, I still had my hopes for change and I wrote one more letter to VP. In it I told him that I believed he had been deceived by devil spirits designed to take down the ministry... on and on. (He told me how to get letters to him that would not be opened by anyone but him. I used that method so I can only assume it got to him.)
I had always hoped there was a change but was when I read what I just mentioned It rang more true to me... That whole once fooled shame on you, twice fooled shame on me thing applied.
I appreciate your thankfulness and can relate as I was in a similar desparate state prior to TWI, however I had already been speaking in toungues for a couple years.
The thing I wrestled with...like some others here...was could I help fix what I thought was God's extra special ministry for me....But I soon came to the unbderstanding, that God called me...before TWI...well, before the foundations of all this....and I would have been "involved" somewhere - whether it was TWI or something else, the more I thought about the God aspect, and less of TWI aspect, the clearer I saw it as so man made. And we all no the results of man-made verses God-made.
I think an other reason the idea of abuse and flaws are something some people deny is becasue they think that TWI was a GOD made ministry....not a man made one.
I was in residence at RC the last year of VP's life when he was quite ill. He spent some time on different occasions talking to us about how difficult it was to make the decision to have the eye surgery. (He even passed around an extra eyeball he had for us to see the craftmanship of it! Gross!) He went into some song and dance about the high priests in the OT being without spot or blemish and to have surgery was some sort of violation of that; how he wrestled with the issue of his own sin (blemish), etc., can't remember it all now.
But truly, many of us felt like his own "believing = receiving" doctrine had come back to haunt him. That he was grieved because he thought he had some sin that "caused" the eye injury and the need for surgery - - although the effects of the minor stroke he had had and the cancer were far more noticable physical effects on him than the eye thing.
Anyway, he did talk about his wrestling with all of this physical stuff on different occasions which made the hard core devotees think of him in even more "holy" terms - - cuz they couldn't even imagine that any of this could be a result of the sin he inferred was a cause like so many records in the OT that he compared himself to as a MOG.
I'm sure as people know they are dying, a lot of things go through their minds, but I stand as a witness as someone who was around him frequently up til his death - - that at no time did he publicly take the opportunity to make any amends for his lifestyle and the people he hurt - - at least that I heard of. He died leaving an organization in shambles even though he had many opportunities to "fix" many of the problems he himself caused and left a "legacy" to someone complicit in his sins - - and that someone has also never publicly admitted, discussed, made amends or tried to rectify the horrible things in which he participated.
On a sunday tape, which I received from headquarters, while in Columbus, Ohio, VP
said that he had committed sins, had been out of fellowship with God and that he was sorry for what he had done.
That's a pretty generic confession. It's not any sort of repentence, by either the Bible's standards, or anyone elses. Telling the truth that he'd plagiarized nearly everything he'd taught since The Way was incorporated would have been a good start. Admitting that he'd harmed people and sinned against them would have been a good next step. Attempting to right his wrongs, as much as possible, would have been a good follow-through.
quote:Originally posted by Dot Matrix:
I hope he did honestly seek repentance...
But I reserve the right to doubt it.
If he sought repentence, in the way some have suggested he might have, it could only make a difference to him and God. It sure didn't address anything that has been discussed at GreaseSpot.
About three years back, I was talking to a woman who had been at HQ in the late 80's thru the 90's. We were discussing TWI and got to talking about the times of VP's final days. She mentioned she had befriended a lady who was a cousin of the Wierwille family, who it happens was the last person to see VP alive.
During this visit, VP expressed his concern or frustration that he just couldn't figure out what sin he had done in his life that allowed a cancer spirit in to do this to him.
I have said before that VP was a true believer in his doctrine. I am talking about how he carried the blood of Jesus and grace so far that if you did not consider sex abuse a sin, it was not a sin. Even if it had to be hidden from those lesser believers who were not spiritually manure ..er,.. mature enough to believe that high.
On his deathbed, while searching for some sin he might have done that allowed devils in his life, he did not consider his sex perversions as a possible source.
It is amazing how he forgot all the verses about what a leader should be to qualify for his position. Or the ones which say shall we sin that grace may abound, God forbid. How about the ones that say that he who causes his brother to sin is worse than an infidel.
Remember all the times VP would exort with all the passion and frustration he could muster; "People, if you could only see the greatness of the freedom you have in Christ." with the implication of how it would so change your life.
I think there are lightbulbs dancing around my computer screen...."Shine the light, oh shine the light!" (I'm singing in my best Amy Grant voice, ahem.)
You have articulated the thoughts floating around in my head, that I couldn't quite put together. Thanks for that.
[This message was edited by ex10 on January 03, 2004 at 13:42.]
love gentleness kindness empathy what-ever-you-wanna-call-it....
and if you missed the boat and inadvertently (without knowledge or intention) hurt someone, the least you could do is say you're sorry and try not to do it again
this just seems "human" to me, never mind a minister of christ, god....
No, I can't imagine that at all. But I can imagine that wherever you go, whether to a twi fellowship or the RC church, God can reach and teach you if you're ready to listen, despite how screwed up the organization is.
>>
But to remain in the dysfunctional
organization ,especially with that knowledge, is to be personally dysfunctional.....
Many old timers I know romanticize the "good ole days" at the expense of reality and usually attempt to rewrite their personal "way" history to make it convenient for them to deny that a particular event occurred thus relieving them of the responsibility of not having done something about it.
Its very easy for such people
to let VPW off the hook for swilling Drambuie and copping a feel off a fawning WOW if they have convinced themselves that it didn't happen or perhaps felt that because of his stature he was entitled. Or worse yet that the fawning WOW "really wanted it". And of course if
a person didn't see it actually happen and only
heard about it then they can discredit the source as being bitter or even possessed.
Sure I've heard lots of stories about how
nice and charming VPW could be. I've spoken with him and can support these points of view but LIKE DUH ! He was a con man and undeniably effective especally with young, idealistic youth looking to make a difference in this world and in their personal lives.
Thus its hardly a surpise that many people had a good impression of him and bought into the whole MOG concept. For many it was their first experience with any type of deliberate self improvement and VPW seemed an particularly
able guru.
Long before the peak of TWI he obviously plagiarized the works of others and in the process built an empire that made lots of money. Whether or not he anticipated this or was personally prepared to deal with all that came with it is subject to debate but he left this world a rich man and lived the life of cult celebrity. And he certainly enjoyed his "man of god" status and did little to discourage those who would exalt him and worship him.
He enjoyed the massive attention
given him by his "yes men" and was acutely aware of the endless preparations that took
place before his visit to a given area but
rather than inject a dose of relaity and
humility into the situation he chose rather
to encourage the behavior even to the point
of employing a presedential air which was
later taken to ridiculous extremes under
LCM. As our "man of god" and "Teacher"
it was reasonable to believe that he
would come to minister to us and help
us solve problems in our lives when it
was quite the opposite - we served him
and in the process our lives got more
busy and complicated because we had to
take time out of an already busy schedule
to accomodate him and his entourage.
Frankly I've got the expectation that we
haven't heard the worst of the abuse stories
since many of the former Way clergy have kept
a tight lip on their involvement with VPW
(perhaps to avoid possible legal action from
former followers). If some of these people
would share their knowledge and admit what many of us already know (that their primary loyalties
were to VPW over and above anyhting else)
then it would enable lots of people to resolve
longstanding issues and make TWI accountable
for its poor treatment of people who helped
to make it rich.
No one here is pefect and we served TWI in
some capacity in the past but even though I met
some cool people during that time I give them
the credit - not TWI. Some have the mentality
that if they met even one nice person while in
TWI then its *because* of TWI. Plenty of soldiers made good friends on the battlefield
but I bet they are more than happy to take
that freindship to some place less dangerous.
I feel/felt the same way about TWI - it was
a hellish place and I can separate some of
the good people from that organization.
[This message was edited by diazbro on January 03, 2004 at 15:04.]
[This message was edited by diazbro on January 03, 2004 at 15:08.]
Linda, I like what you said about God reaching out to people no matter what organization they are in. Then can we say that we are thankful for that corrupt organization, or thankful for God?
I am thankful for many people who belonged to TWI who helped me. I am thankful for many people who never heard of TWI who helped me, too.
organization ,especially with that knowledge, is to be personally dysfunctional.....
Exactly.
For me (remember I said for me and am not daring to speak for or of anyone else here), the question of "why did you stay so long" is answered with, "because I was just as dysfunctional as the organization".
quote:For many it was their first experience with any type of deliberate self improvement and VPW seemed an particularly
able guru.
Yep.
quote:If some of these people
would share their knowledge and admit what many of us already know (that their primary loyalties
were to VPW over and above anyhting else)
then it would enable lots of people to resolve
longstanding issues and make TWI accountable
for its poor treatment of people who helped
to make it rich.
Somewhere in my head I'm waiting for this...
quote:Some have the mentality
that if they met even one nice person while in
TWI then its *because* of TWI. Plenty of soldiers made good friends on the battlefield
but I bet they are more than happy to take
that freindship to some place less dangerous.
I feel/felt the same way about TWI - it was
a hellish place and I can separate some of
the good people from that organization.
Yeah.
The worst for me is when I figure that "god" put me in twi to meet those good people...that I am alive today because "god" intervened on my behalf and sent me to twig.
What a crock. What kind of insanity is it to serve a "god" that has no other way to work than to draw people into dysfunction of the nth degree?
So CW, when God answered my prayer the very next day when I asked him to send a Christian to tell me about Jesus Christ and the Bible, and a wonderful WOW came to work with me and witness to me the very next day, according to you, it was just a "cruel joke". Well sorry, I don't think God plays cruel jokes.
The Way was a good thing that went bad. Not an evilly devised program to farm sex slaves and get money. It ended up that way, but I believe it started with a desire to provide something besides empty religion to people that wanted something besides dull denominationalism that rules with heavy hand. It became a denomination that ruled with a WAY heavy hand, to be sure.
Sadly, almost every group, be it charitable organization, churches, labor unions, etc, start out with good intentions, with a desire to help people, but end up going bad due to corruption, lust, greed. Even some politicians start out with a desire to help their constituants but can't handle the power once it is handed to them. Saul couldn't handle it, David couldn't handle it. It's the way of human beings...
Only Jesus Christ our lord could and did handle it. He is the only one
My post was a direct response to diazbro's...particularly the part about staying in the dysfunction.
I am very glad that I took PFAL. BUT, the idea that I should have made PFAL a lifestyle and should have clung to "the ministry that taught me the 'word'" was insanity, imo...especially when I fell into discounting the abuse I heard about, eye-witnessed and experienced.
I would like to express that I do get it and with a few enough tears I do share in the griefs of those who have so much shared their pain a peace they wish they would have never experienced, i would have never known...
Ok, fair enough CW. And I surely do respect your not wanting to "cling to the Ministry that taught you the Word". I didn't, to be sure. I got thrown out on my a** back in 1989 because I spoke up about the b.s.
And, I am well aware of some of the things you went through. I too was in Alaska when that particular LC allowed all of that child molesting to go on because he knew "by revelation from God" that the perpetrators weren't really doing what many of the believers warned him they were doing...
Yeah, he was really "walking", wasn't he? Letting those scum run a Children's Fellowship! He and I went around and around on so many things, and the only reason he would even entertain my confrontations at all was because I was clergy also. But he still wouldn't listen, because well, he was a friggin joikoff..
Eventually I took a job on a commercial halibut boat and went and fished in the Gulf of Alaska. Kinda like Peter..."I go a fishing...."
It really made him mad cuz he couldn't contact me and my wife would just tell him, "He's out in the ocean. He'll be back when he gets back. Ask God what to do". He was desperately trying to take care of "damage control" with a fear that I had "bad mouthed him" to the believers in my area.
So, yeah, sorry for getting off the thread here. But I wanted to let Cool Waters know that I know of some of the things she went through, and to apologize if I had misunderstood her.
But anyway, I still did enjoy my early times in The Way. I liked the simple structure of the twigs and branches, the home fellowships, and yes, I liked PFAL, and I really did go from being a way lost soul to being one with direction. And as I have stated before, I am really sorry for you all that were abused. I didn't know of it going on, and had I known, I believe I would have spoken up about it.
Or maybe I would have been too afraid, or, maybe I would have worried about my position. I was caught up in it too ya know. But I like to think that I would have spoken up at risk of being ostracized. I did it in a number of situations on a smaller scale even before I got "ordinated" Almost got kicked out too!
Ya know, I was almost seduced by a female clergy woman when I was in my first year in the Corps. I mean, I was shocked to the bone when it happened. Should I tell it?
when God answered my prayer to send a Christian to tell me about Jesus Christ.
The Way was a good thing that went bad. Not an evilly devised program to farm sex slaves and get money. It ended up that way,
Jonny,
If God sent them to you what was the point of having The Way. Would God have not sent someone to you if there was no WOW program or Way International? Is that what you are saying? So with out WOW's to do Gods will you would not have known God?
You are wrong if you think God had anything at all to do with the Way, there is no such thing as an religious establishment of men that is not evilly devised because the very intent itself is evil. People only see it as good because they will benefit from it.
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Lightside
Yep, heard it with my own earballs.......
It was a sunday teaching tape.......
When VPW said it, I had absolutely, possitively, exactly NO CLUE what we was talking about or meant.
He explained nothing of what he meant or what he was sorry about.
On a sunday tape, which I received from headquarters, while in Columbus, Ohio, VP
said that he had committed sins, had been out of fellowship with God and that he was sorry for what he had done.
I remember immediately thinking: Maybe because he couldn't believe God for a instant miracle????
What sin did he committ???
Absolutely noone in Columbus mentioned or talked about his statements on that tape.
Anybody here remember that tape; and the context of his confession of BROKEN FELLOWSHIP?????
I think the time frame was after his eye surgury.
IMHO, only the team, the cast of characters, the booty hunters knew what he was talking about.
Lets find that tape.......
I stil have abunch of them....I'll take a look and see what I can find.
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Dot Matrix
Someone else posted on this before and said that VPW was stilling hitting on some woman he knew almost right up until he died or somthing...
It is on some thread some where about a year ago, maybe.
At the time, I still had my hopes for change and I wrote one more letter to VP. In it I told him that I believed he had been deceived by devil spirits designed to take down the ministry... on and on. (He told me how to get letters to him that would not be opened by anyone but him. I used that method so I can only assume it got to him.)
I had always hoped there was a change but was when I read what I just mentioned It rang more true to me... That whole once fooled shame on you, twice fooled shame on me thing applied.
I hope he did honestly seek repentance...
But I reserve the right to doubt it.
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washingtonweather
Johnny,
I appreciate your thankfulness and can relate as I was in a similar desparate state prior to TWI, however I had already been speaking in toungues for a couple years.
The thing I wrestled with...like some others here...was could I help fix what I thought was God's extra special ministry for me....But I soon came to the unbderstanding, that God called me...before TWI...well, before the foundations of all this....and I would have been "involved" somewhere - whether it was TWI or something else, the more I thought about the God aspect, and less of TWI aspect, the clearer I saw it as so man made. And we all no the results of man-made verses God-made.
I think an other reason the idea of abuse and flaws are something some people deny is becasue they think that TWI was a GOD made ministry....not a man made one.
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jardinero
Lightside:
I was in residence at RC the last year of VP's life when he was quite ill. He spent some time on different occasions talking to us about how difficult it was to make the decision to have the eye surgery. (He even passed around an extra eyeball he had for us to see the craftmanship of it! Gross!) He went into some song and dance about the high priests in the OT being without spot or blemish and to have surgery was some sort of violation of that; how he wrestled with the issue of his own sin (blemish), etc., can't remember it all now.
But truly, many of us felt like his own "believing = receiving" doctrine had come back to haunt him. That he was grieved because he thought he had some sin that "caused" the eye injury and the need for surgery - - although the effects of the minor stroke he had had and the cancer were far more noticable physical effects on him than the eye thing.
Anyway, he did talk about his wrestling with all of this physical stuff on different occasions which made the hard core devotees think of him in even more "holy" terms - - cuz they couldn't even imagine that any of this could be a result of the sin he inferred was a cause like so many records in the OT that he compared himself to as a MOG.
I'm sure as people know they are dying, a lot of things go through their minds, but I stand as a witness as someone who was around him frequently up til his death - - that at no time did he publicly take the opportunity to make any amends for his lifestyle and the people he hurt - - at least that I heard of. He died leaving an organization in shambles even though he had many opportunities to "fix" many of the problems he himself caused and left a "legacy" to someone complicit in his sins - - and that someone has also never publicly admitted, discussed, made amends or tried to rectify the horrible things in which he participated.
Jardinero
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LG
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dabobbada
Lightside,
About three years back, I was talking to a woman who had been at HQ in the late 80's thru the 90's. We were discussing TWI and got to talking about the times of VP's final days. She mentioned she had befriended a lady who was a cousin of the Wierwille family, who it happens was the last person to see VP alive.
During this visit, VP expressed his concern or frustration that he just couldn't figure out what sin he had done in his life that allowed a cancer spirit in to do this to him.
I have said before that VP was a true believer in his doctrine. I am talking about how he carried the blood of Jesus and grace so far that if you did not consider sex abuse a sin, it was not a sin. Even if it had to be hidden from those lesser believers who were not spiritually manure ..er,.. mature enough to believe that high.
On his deathbed, while searching for some sin he might have done that allowed devils in his life, he did not consider his sex perversions as a possible source.
It is amazing how he forgot all the verses about what a leader should be to qualify for his position. Or the ones which say shall we sin that grace may abound, God forbid. How about the ones that say that he who causes his brother to sin is worse than an infidel.
Remember all the times VP would exort with all the passion and frustration he could muster; "People, if you could only see the greatness of the freedom you have in Christ." with the implication of how it would so change your life.
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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ex10
Wow, socks.
I think there are lightbulbs dancing around my computer screen...."Shine the light, oh shine the light!" (I'm singing in my best Amy Grant voice, ahem.)
You have articulated the thoughts floating around in my head, that I couldn't quite put together. Thanks for that.
[This message was edited by ex10 on January 03, 2004 at 13:42.]
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excathedra
love gentleness kindness empathy what-ever-you-wanna-call-it....
and if you missed the boat and inadvertently (without knowledge or intention) hurt someone, the least you could do is say you're sorry and try not to do it again
this just seems "human" to me, never mind a minister of christ, god....
?
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diazbro
Linda Z said:
No, I can't imagine that at all. But I can imagine that wherever you go, whether to a twi fellowship or the RC church, God can reach and teach you if you're ready to listen, despite how screwed up the organization is.
>>
But to remain in the dysfunctional
organization ,especially with that knowledge, is to be personally dysfunctional.....
Many old timers I know romanticize the "good ole days" at the expense of reality and usually attempt to rewrite their personal "way" history to make it convenient for them to deny that a particular event occurred thus relieving them of the responsibility of not having done something about it.
Its very easy for such people
to let VPW off the hook for swilling Drambuie and copping a feel off a fawning WOW if they have convinced themselves that it didn't happen or perhaps felt that because of his stature he was entitled. Or worse yet that the fawning WOW "really wanted it". And of course if
a person didn't see it actually happen and only
heard about it then they can discredit the source as being bitter or even possessed.
Sure I've heard lots of stories about how
nice and charming VPW could be. I've spoken with him and can support these points of view but LIKE DUH ! He was a con man and undeniably effective especally with young, idealistic youth looking to make a difference in this world and in their personal lives.
Thus its hardly a surpise that many people had a good impression of him and bought into the whole MOG concept. For many it was their first experience with any type of deliberate self improvement and VPW seemed an particularly
able guru.
Long before the peak of TWI he obviously plagiarized the works of others and in the process built an empire that made lots of money. Whether or not he anticipated this or was personally prepared to deal with all that came with it is subject to debate but he left this world a rich man and lived the life of cult celebrity. And he certainly enjoyed his "man of god" status and did little to discourage those who would exalt him and worship him.
He enjoyed the massive attention
given him by his "yes men" and was acutely aware of the endless preparations that took
place before his visit to a given area but
rather than inject a dose of relaity and
humility into the situation he chose rather
to encourage the behavior even to the point
of employing a presedential air which was
later taken to ridiculous extremes under
LCM. As our "man of god" and "Teacher"
it was reasonable to believe that he
would come to minister to us and help
us solve problems in our lives when it
was quite the opposite - we served him
and in the process our lives got more
busy and complicated because we had to
take time out of an already busy schedule
to accomodate him and his entourage.
Frankly I've got the expectation that we
haven't heard the worst of the abuse stories
since many of the former Way clergy have kept
a tight lip on their involvement with VPW
(perhaps to avoid possible legal action from
former followers). If some of these people
would share their knowledge and admit what many of us already know (that their primary loyalties
were to VPW over and above anyhting else)
then it would enable lots of people to resolve
longstanding issues and make TWI accountable
for its poor treatment of people who helped
to make it rich.
No one here is pefect and we served TWI in
some capacity in the past but even though I met
some cool people during that time I give them
the credit - not TWI. Some have the mentality
that if they met even one nice person while in
TWI then its *because* of TWI. Plenty of soldiers made good friends on the battlefield
but I bet they are more than happy to take
that freindship to some place less dangerous.
I feel/felt the same way about TWI - it was
a hellish place and I can separate some of
the good people from that organization.
[This message was edited by diazbro on January 03, 2004 at 15:04.]
[This message was edited by diazbro on January 03, 2004 at 15:08.]
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excathedra
i have to agree diaz
take it from one who remained dysfunctional
?
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J0nny Ling0
What do you mean by "remained dysfunctional"?
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excathedra
i still thought he was the man of god
?
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shazdancer
Well said, diazbro! Thanks.
Linda, I like what you said about God reaching out to people no matter what organization they are in. Then can we say that we are thankful for that corrupt organization, or thankful for God?
I am thankful for many people who belonged to TWI who helped me. I am thankful for many people who never heard of TWI who helped me, too.
And thank you for an interesting discussion!
Regards,
Shaz
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Linda Z
Shaz, thankful to God, of course. It's God who always had/has my best interests at heart, no matter what men's motives were where I was concerned.
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CoolWaters
Exactly.
For me (remember I said for me and am not daring to speak for or of anyone else here), the question of "why did you stay so long" is answered with, "because I was just as dysfunctional as the organization".
Yep.
Somewhere in my head I'm waiting for this...
Yeah.
The worst for me is when I figure that "god" put me in twi to meet those good people...that I am alive today because "god" intervened on my behalf and sent me to twig.
What a crock. What kind of insanity is it to serve a "god" that has no other way to work than to draw people into dysfunction of the nth degree?
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J0nny Ling0
So CW, when God answered my prayer the very next day when I asked him to send a Christian to tell me about Jesus Christ and the Bible, and a wonderful WOW came to work with me and witness to me the very next day, according to you, it was just a "cruel joke". Well sorry, I don't think God plays cruel jokes.
The Way was a good thing that went bad. Not an evilly devised program to farm sex slaves and get money. It ended up that way, but I believe it started with a desire to provide something besides empty religion to people that wanted something besides dull denominationalism that rules with heavy hand. It became a denomination that ruled with a WAY heavy hand, to be sure.
Sadly, almost every group, be it charitable organization, churches, labor unions, etc, start out with good intentions, with a desire to help people, but end up going bad due to corruption, lust, greed. Even some politicians start out with a desire to help their constituants but can't handle the power once it is handed to them. Saul couldn't handle it, David couldn't handle it. It's the way of human beings...
Only Jesus Christ our lord could and did handle it. He is the only one
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CoolWaters
Johnny Lingo...
My post was a direct response to diazbro's...particularly the part about staying in the dysfunction.
I am very glad that I took PFAL. BUT, the idea that I should have made PFAL a lifestyle and should have clung to "the ministry that taught me the 'word'" was insanity, imo...especially when I fell into discounting the abuse I heard about, eye-witnessed and experienced.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I would like to express that I do get it and with a few enough tears I do share in the griefs of those who have so much shared their pain a peace they wish they would have never experienced, i would have never known...
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J0nny Ling0
Ok, fair enough CW. And I surely do respect your not wanting to "cling to the Ministry that taught you the Word". I didn't, to be sure. I got thrown out on my a** back in 1989 because I spoke up about the b.s.
And, I am well aware of some of the things you went through. I too was in Alaska when that particular LC allowed all of that child molesting to go on because he knew "by revelation from God" that the perpetrators weren't really doing what many of the believers warned him they were doing...
Yeah, he was really "walking", wasn't he? Letting those scum run a Children's Fellowship! He and I went around and around on so many things, and the only reason he would even entertain my confrontations at all was because I was clergy also. But he still wouldn't listen, because well, he was a friggin joikoff..
Eventually I took a job on a commercial halibut boat and went and fished in the Gulf of Alaska. Kinda like Peter..."I go a fishing...."
It really made him mad cuz he couldn't contact me and my wife would just tell him, "He's out in the ocean. He'll be back when he gets back. Ask God what to do". He was desperately trying to take care of "damage control" with a fear that I had "bad mouthed him" to the believers in my area.
So, yeah, sorry for getting off the thread here. But I wanted to let Cool Waters know that I know of some of the things she went through, and to apologize if I had misunderstood her.
But anyway, I still did enjoy my early times in The Way. I liked the simple structure of the twigs and branches, the home fellowships, and yes, I liked PFAL, and I really did go from being a way lost soul to being one with direction. And as I have stated before, I am really sorry for you all that were abused. I didn't know of it going on, and had I known, I believe I would have spoken up about it.
Or maybe I would have been too afraid, or, maybe I would have worried about my position. I was caught up in it too ya know. But I like to think that I would have spoken up at risk of being ostracized. I did it in a number of situations on a smaller scale even before I got "ordinated" Almost got kicked out too!
Ya know, I was almost seduced by a female clergy woman when I was in my first year in the Corps. I mean, I was shocked to the bone when it happened. Should I tell it?
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early2it
Jonny,
If God sent them to you what was the point of having The Way. Would God have not sent someone to you if there was no WOW program or Way International? Is that what you are saying? So with out WOW's to do Gods will you would not have known God?
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Lightside
Concerning your input on the VPW confession.
Oh God, he died full of pride and blind.
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early2it
Poor old God would have just been SOL when it came to answering your prayer if it weren't for The Way. Am I understanding you correctly?
Do you really believe the Way was established by Weirwille on request of God? Or do you think VPW set up the Way according to his own will.
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early2it
You are wrong if you think God had anything at all to do with the Way, there is no such thing as an religious establishment of men that is not evilly devised because the very intent itself is evil. People only see it as good because they will benefit from it.
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