Part of what attracted you to TWI to begin with was the fact that here was a group of people willing to STAND on what they knew to be the truth, in spite of the entire world around them condemning them and naysaying and accusing and all kinds of things like that.
You stood in the face of all the odds. You believed something that perhaps went against what you had learned in your born religion all your life.
Why is this so different?
Where are your guts? Why are you so unwilling to break with your religion? Why are you so unwilling to change your thinking, in the face of so many witnesses?
I believe that when VPW went to Scotland just before he died and talked to Chris G**r, that alot of what he did was confess his many sins to CG. I think that he knew that he blew one of the neatest things going. Yeah sure, maybe he should have confessed it to all of us, and to particular individuals whom he had personally hurt. But maybe he thought that keeping the "cat in the bag" and keeping the sordid details out would have helped the bigger picture. Maybe he thought that the "cat would stay in the bag" if it was handled discreetly. It seemed as if that was what the original plan was-until Craig blabbed it all at that Corps and Staff meeting. Remember that? And gave us that veiled death threat if WE blabbed? Huh! What a friggin joikoff..And remember, after that, it spewed across all the telephone lines and it was OVER. My wife "shadowed VPW about six times and spent many hours with him in his coach, yet he never once hit on her, and she's durned purdy too! So like Linda Z said, this stuff was news to me, although I also learned from Sunesis (among others) that he was a constant "booty hound".
And also like Linda Z said, PFAL and The Way for me were just what this screwed up 17 year old kid needed to put me on the track with God and God loving people like yourselves. I definitely had some of the very best times of my life in dem days...
So maybe he tried to confess to some degree just before he died....
Oh geeze, johnny. I really disagree with your theory. One major reason is that Geer was the one who helped VP "catch his booty." VP didn't NEED to confess to Geer because he was complicit in all of it. Besides which, adultery was never mentioned in the poop paper. Which seems like it would be a big confession item.
And I guess, according to Shazzdancer, I am in "denial" because I do not believe I was hoodwinked as she says. Well, I have to disagree. I know without a doubt that the Almighty called me to The Way Ministry.
One night I was on my knees in the wheelhouse of the restaurant boat I worked on and asked God to send me a Christian person to tell me about Jesus. I made a promise to Him that very night that if He would send someone to me, I would serve Him. That very next morning as I was readying the vessel for our luncheon cruise, a bright and shining young woman with flaming red hair came to work aboard as a cocktail waitress. When I asked her about her New York accent, she smiled and said that she was from New York, but that she had come to teach people about the accuracey of God's Word and about the power of God. And I asked her if she meant the Bible and Jesus Christ? And she said emphatically; "Yes!" Then I told her of how I had been on my knees the night before asking God to send someone, and; "Here you are!" And she said that she had been in the park praying a half hour before to be able to meet someone who wanted to know about God's Word, and; "Here YOU are!" And right there on the spot we hugged eachother, and I proceeded to pour my heart out to her, and she began to fill that void with God's Word and God's love. And then I went to Twig that night, and thus began my own 15 year experience w/ The Way.
Ya know, I just don't think God woulda sent Ann Marie O'Reilly Romaine (7th Corps) to witness to me and involve me in The Way if there wasn't something there worth being a part of. I have no doubt that God has a sense of humor, but I don't think He plays "cruel jokes".
So, I don't think I was hoodwinked or mind controlled by VPW. When things got ugly and changed, I believe God guided my wife and myself right on outa there and here we are, happy and blessed. And we don't even fellowship with any "offshoots" for that matter..
quote:I believe that when VPW went to Scotland just before he died and talked to Chris G**r, that alot of what he did was confess his many sins to CG.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ok i'm done
And nice to see you too Ex 10! Hope all is well with you and yourn. Happy New Year!
Well, he mighta said; "Gigs up CGand we fu**ed up an we better try to make some sorta ammends"...
Obviously it (POP) didn't save anything, whatever they were trying to do, but as in my post after your post to me, there was still something there for me and many others that fit the bill and filled an obvious void at those times in our lives..
I just don't think that It started out with the purpose of being a "sex farm". It may have become that way, but I don't think it started that way..
Ex10, I have no problem recognizing that some people worship VPW. I think, however, that others are simply trying to figure things out and not in that category, and that the name gets tossed out a bit too readily.
Raf, thanks, and I'm glad that made you feel better. My apologies to Oak the Thread Starter.
:)-->
Socks and Hopefull, great points. I trace my former thinking about "well, we all sin" back to the "big and little sins" thing in PFAL. Maybe to God all sin is sin and there aren't degrees, but I think the sins that involve using and carelessly hurting other people are bigger sins on that horizontal level that VP was always talking about.
Shaz, like Johnny L, I don't feel I was hoodwinked, either, and I don't feel embarrassed about being in the way. I got what I went for and I left when I became aware that all wasn't right, just like anything else I ever got into in my life.
The "product," if you will, that I wanted wasn't a MOG or a "father" but something that made sense about God and a clue that God gave a hoot about me or any of us.
In between VP's stories and opinions, I heard/read a whole bunch of Bible verses I'd never heard/read before that put a lot of stuff together for me, and they woke me up to a much greater awe for God than I'd ever dreamed of having.
Johnny L., Geer talked in POP about how f'd up everyone else was, from the BOT to the Corps to the rest of the believers. I don't recall hearing one thing that VP said he regretted about his own actions. I agree with Ex10 and excathie that Geer was complicit in the crap. There would have been no need to "confess" it to him.
yeah, somehow I don't see the fruit of vp confessing to cg in the poop paper--I see EVERYONE betraying poor ole vic and ALL of us bein at fault...that is how it came down and that was how cg ended up bein the "prophet from God" that many believed him to be....I remember that we ALL had forsaken the Word...cept vp, he kept the faith---u oughta read poop again johnny lingo--you might be surprised what it says today, 18 years down the road and all the smoke settled....YMMV
Hahahaha Tilda! Gotta love those pugnacious Irish. Will there be whiskey too? And talking politics? And lotza cigar smokin....an occasional off-color joke? ;)-->
Understood, you got what you wanted out of TWI. Likewise. I'd promised myself even before I went into the Corps, that if TWI ever stopped standing for God, I'd stop standing for TWI. When I saw it was corrupt at the head (and I didn't even know about the sex stuff back then), I left.
However, looking back now, I absolutely feel that I was conned into thinking that these were spiritual men, all nine all the time and all that. I am not ashamed of what I did during my time in TWI. Aside from occasional human failings, I tried to help with the love of God when I could.
There are actually 2 TWI's: the one made up of sincere Christians trying to do the right thing, and the inner circle of corrupt leadership. I am sorry that I gave time and money to support the latter. The loss of emotional health of so many was not worth the "good times" I may have gotten out of that organization.
Can you just imagine God saying, "Well, we're gonna have to sacrifice a bunch of My kids so that some others can hear the rightly-divided Word." I think that is putting the cart before the horse. I would hope that God would care more about people than about a book, even His book.
And yeah, I think that some people have a hard time accepting what Wierwille did, because to do so is to admit that they were WRONG about that organization, and that man. If that does not describe you, no sweat! :)-->
If VPW had been a priest, he would have been transferred to New Mexico. That's how the Catholic Church covered the sins of those corrupt priests - they moved them. TWI couldn't do that with either VPW or LCM - until the first law suit was filed and posted on Waydale!
VPW was covered for not just by Geer (although, IMO, he was probably one of VP's chief pimps and drambuie pourers). VPW was covered for by, I would guess, 50 - 100 people who knew what was going on - and I'm not talking about the women who he abused - I'm talking about the people who knew about it and never took part in any of it.
Heck - I knew about it - well, I'd heard about it from one person shortly after I graduated from the Corps. But I was told by the then Grand Poobah trunk of the USA worldwide outreach coordinator dude to NOT believe or trust this wonderful woman who was a dear friend. He was able to convince me that this woman was possessed by all sorts of debbil spurts. Cover-cover-cover.
I'm getting off topic, sorry Linda.
Maybe PFAL did enlighten me in some ways. I wasn't a Christian before I took the class and don't consider myself a very good one now, if at all! But I became one for a while and if what TWI taught really is true, then I've got a guaranteed place in heaven!
I'm glad I had fun and nothing bad happened to me in those early years - I guess I was lucky. My heart goes out to those of you who were abused. I admire your strength and honesty. I wish I had a magic wand I could wave and make it all go away...
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
well, obviously I was never subject to the primary abuses -- the sexual ones. but I saw enough abuse of authority and teaching that was bass-ackwards regarding accountability and "the way tree" to know finally realize that self-justifying leader worship false doctrine was the BLACK thread that wove through the entire organization. And I also recognized a culture of major sexual dysfunction and confusion associated therewith... so I didn't need to witness anyone's first hand rapes to believe them.
The culture was ripe for tragedy. And tragedy is what too many got. One would have been too many.
Look out, EX10, don't step on it! :D--> Hmm, actually that felt kind of good.
Ya Mo Be There, Dot. :)-->
Jonny, I read an interesting definition recently for the terms "extrovert" and "introvert". It went, when faced with something going wrong an extrovert will think first "you did it". An introvert will think "I did it". It was saying it didn't have so much to do with how you act towards others but rather how you think of yourself in relation to others.
Something I found in those who came to the Way over the years was that in general it was a fairly introspective group. People looking for answers and direction, meaning. There were lots of outgoing people, but people who were willing to sit down and listen to someone else tell them what things meant, people who wanted to learn and put the time in listening and thinking about what they heard. Not every type of person wants or likes to do that, certainly not for extended periods of time.
Whether the definition holds water or not, I dunno but I think the idea reflects somewhat on many of us. We accepted the idea that our "believing" action could be the cause of every effect in the world. Everything that happened had a purpose and a cause and we, the people of the Way, were at the center of it. I've thought about that idea as a core idea in a belief system - not that we are part of a greater whole of interconnected parts with relationships, but that we are the cause of good and bad in the worlds in which we live because of how and what we think. That's a basic core teaching of the Way and VP that I've really had to examine.
Given the law of believing, if someone acts in "good faith" and it causes you harm, it can be construed that you brought the harm to yourself. After all, "I meant well, I had no harm intended, maybe you're the one with the problem, seeing evil in my good".
I do believe that this was a concept that VPW may have held to, that the actions of an individual could be acceptable and good if they "in their hearts" had no evil intent but meant good - even if it was in fact wrong. On that level, it's possible to do as you like as long as you like what you do.
On the other hand, if the law of love always does that which is beneficial to the other person, you would never do anything that would potentially cause harm to that other person...even if it was "right", because that would make it "wrong". Love demands that we all serve the good of the other. "Greater love hath no man", etc. Under that scenario, there's no situation which would allow me to coerce or force my own "good" upon another. If a person were too weak to handle something I felt free to do, I would avoid doing it if it risked harming the other person.
So, I have to ask myself, at what point did VPW decide that he wasn't responsible for the very likely scenario that his actions with women wouldn't risk hurting them? At what point was even the slightest possibility of hurt to them insignificant enough to act as he did? Closer to home, what would bring me or anyone to that point knowing what "the word" says?
baby's calling me home,
she keeps on callin' me home....
(boz scaggs)
[This message was edited by socks on January 03, 2004 at 2:34.]
[This message was edited by socks on January 03, 2004 at 2:36.]
"eso si que es?" Isn't that Spanish for something?
And yes, Pawtucket, I will always love Ann Marie and be thankful for her life. In fact, I have a son named Riley, and Ann Maries' maiden was taken into consideration when Riley was named. If you see her, just tell her the incident, and she will know who I am. My wife also knows her because they were in the Corps together...
And Word Wolf, I could say that my memories of being on the field were definitely ther best, but then again, I have some superb memories when I was in residence with Ex 10 and the Tenth Corps as well..
I think that the first time I ever saw a major flaw in the Way (and it had nothing to do with sex) was the time I came back from being a WOW.
A good friend of mine and I who had both undershepherded Harvey Platig when he was a new guy (I knew Harvey when he was "the new kid up the street" back in 6th grade) were standing under the big top auditorium while Harvey was giving his crowd pleasing "Valedictorian WOW speech" designed to get more people to go WOW.
Harve was up there and the crowd was just roaring as he talked of the twelve classes they had run that year in Florida. And when he was done, the crowd jumped to it's feet, and VPW came out and gave him a big hug. At that point, my friend, the guy who had undershephered me says with great dismay; ".... Jonny, look at Harvey. He's only been in the Word for two years, and he's already on main stage!" And instead of reaming him a new a**hole, I hung my head too and thought about my WOW year and how I had "failed" compared to Harvey's "numbers". After that, I had a jilted idea of what it meant to please God, and slipped into the idolatrous ways of glorifying myself instead of God. Oh, I did alot of things out of the Love Of God, and there were wonderful times, but at other times I didn't, and strove to "prove myself" as a leader and all of that jazz. But when I look at it now, it was just a simple (yet very consequential) breach of Ist Corinthians 13, a breach that I ALLOWED by disobeying the scripture. I think alot of us did this actually...But I don't think of it as having been brain washed, but rather us just being people doing the old man nature thing and falling prey to wanting the recognition from other humans instead of our "already obtained recognition from God"...
Shaz asked, "Can you just imagine God saying, 'Well, we're gonna have to sacrifice a bunch of My kids so that some others can hear the rightly-divided Word.'"
No, I can't imagine that at all. But I can imagine that wherever you go, whether to a twi fellowship or the RC church, God can reach and teach you if you're ready to listen, despite how screwed up the organization is.
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Raf
Okay, Linda Z, I need to nitpick...
Linda Carter didn't start that other thread. She was the first to respond to it.
Ok, I'm better now.
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Steve!
People! People!
Part of what attracted you to TWI to begin with was the fact that here was a group of people willing to STAND on what they knew to be the truth, in spite of the entire world around them condemning them and naysaying and accusing and all kinds of things like that.
You stood in the face of all the odds. You believed something that perhaps went against what you had learned in your born religion all your life.
Why is this so different?
Where are your guts? Why are you so unwilling to break with your religion? Why are you so unwilling to change your thinking, in the face of so many witnesses?
What are you so afraid of?
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Dot Matrix
Socks I love this:
"With the Way, the well is tainted, put up a "beware" sign and go somewhere else."
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ex10
Yeah, socks, and the thing about your butt falling off was my best laff of the week.
:D-->
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J0nny Ling0
I believe that when VPW went to Scotland just before he died and talked to Chris G**r, that alot of what he did was confess his many sins to CG. I think that he knew that he blew one of the neatest things going. Yeah sure, maybe he should have confessed it to all of us, and to particular individuals whom he had personally hurt. But maybe he thought that keeping the "cat in the bag" and keeping the sordid details out would have helped the bigger picture. Maybe he thought that the "cat would stay in the bag" if it was handled discreetly. It seemed as if that was what the original plan was-until Craig blabbed it all at that Corps and Staff meeting. Remember that? And gave us that veiled death threat if WE blabbed? Huh! What a friggin joikoff..And remember, after that, it spewed across all the telephone lines and it was OVER. My wife "shadowed VPW about six times and spent many hours with him in his coach, yet he never once hit on her, and she's durned purdy too! So like Linda Z said, this stuff was news to me, although I also learned from Sunesis (among others) that he was a constant "booty hound".
And also like Linda Z said, PFAL and The Way for me were just what this screwed up 17 year old kid needed to put me on the track with God and God loving people like yourselves. I definitely had some of the very best times of my life in dem days...
So maybe he tried to confess to some degree just before he died....
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ex10
Oh geeze, johnny. I really disagree with your theory. One major reason is that Geer was the one who helped VP "catch his booty." VP didn't NEED to confess to Geer because he was complicit in all of it. Besides which, adultery was never mentioned in the poop paper. Which seems like it would be a big confession item.
I apologize for the derail, linzee.
;)-->
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ex10
ps Johnny. It's nice to see you again.
;)-->
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J0nny Ling0
And I guess, according to Shazzdancer, I am in "denial" because I do not believe I was hoodwinked as she says. Well, I have to disagree. I know without a doubt that the Almighty called me to The Way Ministry.
One night I was on my knees in the wheelhouse of the restaurant boat I worked on and asked God to send me a Christian person to tell me about Jesus. I made a promise to Him that very night that if He would send someone to me, I would serve Him. That very next morning as I was readying the vessel for our luncheon cruise, a bright and shining young woman with flaming red hair came to work aboard as a cocktail waitress. When I asked her about her New York accent, she smiled and said that she was from New York, but that she had come to teach people about the accuracey of God's Word and about the power of God. And I asked her if she meant the Bible and Jesus Christ? And she said emphatically; "Yes!" Then I told her of how I had been on my knees the night before asking God to send someone, and; "Here you are!" And she said that she had been in the park praying a half hour before to be able to meet someone who wanted to know about God's Word, and; "Here YOU are!" And right there on the spot we hugged eachother, and I proceeded to pour my heart out to her, and she began to fill that void with God's Word and God's love. And then I went to Twig that night, and thus began my own 15 year experience w/ The Way.
Ya know, I just don't think God woulda sent Ann Marie O'Reilly Romaine (7th Corps) to witness to me and involve me in The Way if there wasn't something there worth being a part of. I have no doubt that God has a sense of humor, but I don't think He plays "cruel jokes".
So, I don't think I was hoodwinked or mind controlled by VPW. When things got ugly and changed, I believe God guided my wife and myself right on outa there and here we are, happy and blessed. And we don't even fellowship with any "offshoots" for that matter..
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excathedra
?
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J0nny Ling0
And nice to see you too Ex 10! Hope all is well with you and yourn. Happy New Year!
Well, he mighta said; "Gigs up CGand we fu**ed up an we better try to make some sorta ammends"...
Obviously it (POP) didn't save anything, whatever they were trying to do, but as in my post after your post to me, there was still something there for me and many others that fit the bill and filled an obvious void at those times in our lives..
I just don't think that It started out with the purpose of being a "sex farm". It may have become that way, but I don't think it started that way..
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J0nny Ling0
Goll-leee Excath..
-->
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pawtucket
Jonny,
Isn't Ann Marie just the greatest? I have to go visit her soon.
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Linda Z
Ex10, I have no problem recognizing that some people worship VPW. I think, however, that others are simply trying to figure things out and not in that category, and that the name gets tossed out a bit too readily.
Raf, thanks, and I'm glad that made you feel better. My apologies to Oak the Thread Starter.
Socks and Hopefull, great points. I trace my former thinking about "well, we all sin" back to the "big and little sins" thing in PFAL. Maybe to God all sin is sin and there aren't degrees, but I think the sins that involve using and carelessly hurting other people are bigger sins on that horizontal level that VP was always talking about.
Shaz, like Johnny L, I don't feel I was hoodwinked, either, and I don't feel embarrassed about being in the way. I got what I went for and I left when I became aware that all wasn't right, just like anything else I ever got into in my life.
The "product," if you will, that I wanted wasn't a MOG or a "father" but something that made sense about God and a clue that God gave a hoot about me or any of us.
In between VP's stories and opinions, I heard/read a whole bunch of Bible verses I'd never heard/read before that put a lot of stuff together for me, and they woke me up to a much greater awe for God than I'd ever dreamed of having.
Johnny L., Geer talked in POP about how f'd up everyone else was, from the BOT to the Corps to the rest of the believers. I don't recall hearing one thing that VP said he regretted about his own actions. I agree with Ex10 and excathie that Geer was complicit in the crap. There would have been no need to "confess" it to him.
Linda Z
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alfakat
yeah, somehow I don't see the fruit of vp confessing to cg in the poop paper--I see EVERYONE betraying poor ole vic and ALL of us bein at fault...that is how it came down and that was how cg ended up bein the "prophet from God" that many believed him to be....I remember that we ALL had forsaken the Word...cept vp, he kept the faith---u oughta read poop again johnny lingo--you might be surprised what it says today, 18 years down the road and all the smoke settled....YMMV
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excathedra
i wasn't laughing at you johnny, sorry
i was laughing at the thought of wierwielle confessing his sins to geer. geer already knew 'em, admired 'em and was a faithful follower
:)-->.
?
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MATILDA
Zbee,
oh yeah? meet me in the parking lot, toots...
double dog dare ya
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ex10
Hahahaha Tilda! Gotta love those pugnacious Irish. Will there be whiskey too? And talking politics? And lotza cigar smokin....an occasional off-color joke?
;)-->
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shazdancer
Dear Linda Z and Jonny Lingo,
Understood, you got what you wanted out of TWI. Likewise. I'd promised myself even before I went into the Corps, that if TWI ever stopped standing for God, I'd stop standing for TWI. When I saw it was corrupt at the head (and I didn't even know about the sex stuff back then), I left.
However, looking back now, I absolutely feel that I was conned into thinking that these were spiritual men, all nine all the time and all that. I am not ashamed of what I did during my time in TWI. Aside from occasional human failings, I tried to help with the love of God when I could.
There are actually 2 TWI's: the one made up of sincere Christians trying to do the right thing, and the inner circle of corrupt leadership. I am sorry that I gave time and money to support the latter. The loss of emotional health of so many was not worth the "good times" I may have gotten out of that organization.
Can you just imagine God saying, "Well, we're gonna have to sacrifice a bunch of My kids so that some others can hear the rightly-divided Word." I think that is putting the cart before the horse. I would hope that God would care more about people than about a book, even His book.
And yeah, I think that some people have a hard time accepting what Wierwille did, because to do so is to admit that they were WRONG about that organization, and that man. If that does not describe you, no sweat!
:)-->
Regards,
Shaz
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Hope R.
*sigh*
If VPW had been a priest, he would have been transferred to New Mexico. That's how the Catholic Church covered the sins of those corrupt priests - they moved them. TWI couldn't do that with either VPW or LCM - until the first law suit was filed and posted on Waydale!
VPW was covered for not just by Geer (although, IMO, he was probably one of VP's chief pimps and drambuie pourers). VPW was covered for by, I would guess, 50 - 100 people who knew what was going on - and I'm not talking about the women who he abused - I'm talking about the people who knew about it and never took part in any of it.
Heck - I knew about it - well, I'd heard about it from one person shortly after I graduated from the Corps. But I was told by the then Grand Poobah trunk of the USA worldwide outreach coordinator dude to NOT believe or trust this wonderful woman who was a dear friend. He was able to convince me that this woman was possessed by all sorts of debbil spurts. Cover-cover-cover.
I'm getting off topic, sorry Linda.
Maybe PFAL did enlighten me in some ways. I wasn't a Christian before I took the class and don't consider myself a very good one now, if at all! But I became one for a while and if what TWI taught really is true, then I've got a guaranteed place in heaven!
I'm glad I had fun and nothing bad happened to me in those early years - I guess I was lucky. My heart goes out to those of you who were abused. I admire your strength and honesty. I wish I had a magic wand I could wave and make it all go away...
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
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Rocky
well, obviously I was never subject to the primary abuses -- the sexual ones. but I saw enough abuse of authority and teaching that was bass-ackwards regarding accountability and "the way tree" to know finally realize that self-justifying leader worship false doctrine was the BLACK thread that wove through the entire organization. And I also recognized a culture of major sexual dysfunction and confusion associated therewith... so I didn't need to witness anyone's first hand rapes to believe them.
The culture was ripe for tragedy. And tragedy is what too many got. One would have been too many.
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WordWolf
If anyone's interested...
Greasespot's main page has links to all the documents,
including the POP paper. Feel free to reread it for yourself.
Basically, it says vpw was dying and worried that twi was going
to be less holy after he died. Nothing about vpw's sins-
just problems with his hand-picked and personally-trained
successors....and we only have cg's word that this is what vpw
said.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com
==============================================
Johnny,
Few, if any, here would claim that you and others weren't
tremendously blessed.
Shaz explains it all a few posts up.
You were blessed because of God working in the hearts of the
lowly peons out in the field.
Meanwhile, root-rot affected the beauracracy, as your 10%
went to pay for luxuries at hq (like a plane, comfy offices,
an ostentatious auditorium, etc) and NEVER for things out there
where the people were actually DOING stuff.
Think for a moment.
I'll bet you have many good memories.
I do.
Mine are almost exclusively from out on the field, though,
from amongst the lowly peons. Yours might be, also.
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socks
Look out, EX10, don't step on it!
:D--> Hmm, actually that felt kind of good. 
Ya Mo Be There, Dot.
:)-->
Jonny, I read an interesting definition recently for the terms "extrovert" and "introvert". It went, when faced with something going wrong an extrovert will think first "you did it". An introvert will think "I did it". It was saying it didn't have so much to do with how you act towards others but rather how you think of yourself in relation to others.
Something I found in those who came to the Way over the years was that in general it was a fairly introspective group. People looking for answers and direction, meaning. There were lots of outgoing people, but people who were willing to sit down and listen to someone else tell them what things meant, people who wanted to learn and put the time in listening and thinking about what they heard. Not every type of person wants or likes to do that, certainly not for extended periods of time.
Whether the definition holds water or not, I dunno but I think the idea reflects somewhat on many of us. We accepted the idea that our "believing" action could be the cause of every effect in the world. Everything that happened had a purpose and a cause and we, the people of the Way, were at the center of it. I've thought about that idea as a core idea in a belief system - not that we are part of a greater whole of interconnected parts with relationships, but that we are the cause of good and bad in the worlds in which we live because of how and what we think. That's a basic core teaching of the Way and VP that I've really had to examine.
Given the law of believing, if someone acts in "good faith" and it causes you harm, it can be construed that you brought the harm to yourself. After all, "I meant well, I had no harm intended, maybe you're the one with the problem, seeing evil in my good".
I do believe that this was a concept that VPW may have held to, that the actions of an individual could be acceptable and good if they "in their hearts" had no evil intent but meant good - even if it was in fact wrong. On that level, it's possible to do as you like as long as you like what you do.
On the other hand, if the law of love always does that which is beneficial to the other person, you would never do anything that would potentially cause harm to that other person...even if it was "right", because that would make it "wrong". Love demands that we all serve the good of the other. "Greater love hath no man", etc. Under that scenario, there's no situation which would allow me to coerce or force my own "good" upon another. If a person were too weak to handle something I felt free to do, I would avoid doing it if it risked harming the other person.
So, I have to ask myself, at what point did VPW decide that he wasn't responsible for the very likely scenario that his actions with women wouldn't risk hurting them? At what point was even the slightest possibility of hurt to them insignificant enough to act as he did? Closer to home, what would bring me or anyone to that point knowing what "the word" says?
baby's calling me home,
she keeps on callin' me home....
(boz scaggs)
[This message was edited by socks on January 03, 2004 at 2:34.]
[This message was edited by socks on January 03, 2004 at 2:36.]
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J0nny Ling0
Thanks for your thoughtful response Socks...
"eso si que es?" Isn't that Spanish for something?
And yes, Pawtucket, I will always love Ann Marie and be thankful for her life. In fact, I have a son named Riley, and Ann Maries' maiden was taken into consideration when Riley was named. If you see her, just tell her the incident, and she will know who I am. My wife also knows her because they were in the Corps together...
And Word Wolf, I could say that my memories of being on the field were definitely ther best, but then again, I have some superb memories when I was in residence with Ex 10 and the Tenth Corps as well..
I think that the first time I ever saw a major flaw in the Way (and it had nothing to do with sex) was the time I came back from being a WOW.
A good friend of mine and I who had both undershepherded Harvey Platig when he was a new guy (I knew Harvey when he was "the new kid up the street" back in 6th grade) were standing under the big top auditorium while Harvey was giving his crowd pleasing "Valedictorian WOW speech" designed to get more people to go WOW.
Harve was up there and the crowd was just roaring as he talked of the twelve classes they had run that year in Florida. And when he was done, the crowd jumped to it's feet, and VPW came out and gave him a big hug. At that point, my friend, the guy who had undershephered me says with great dismay; ".... Jonny, look at Harvey. He's only been in the Word for two years, and he's already on main stage!" And instead of reaming him a new a**hole, I hung my head too and thought about my WOW year and how I had "failed" compared to Harvey's "numbers". After that, I had a jilted idea of what it meant to please God, and slipped into the idolatrous ways of glorifying myself instead of God. Oh, I did alot of things out of the Love Of God, and there were wonderful times, but at other times I didn't, and strove to "prove myself" as a leader and all of that jazz. But when I look at it now, it was just a simple (yet very consequential) breach of Ist Corinthians 13, a breach that I ALLOWED by disobeying the scripture. I think alot of us did this actually...But I don't think of it as having been brain washed, but rather us just being people doing the old man nature thing and falling prey to wanting the recognition from other humans instead of our "already obtained recognition from God"...
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Linda Z
Shaz asked, "Can you just imagine God saying, 'Well, we're gonna have to sacrifice a bunch of My kids so that some others can hear the rightly-divided Word.'"
No, I can't imagine that at all. But I can imagine that wherever you go, whether to a twi fellowship or the RC church, God can reach and teach you if you're ready to listen, despite how screwed up the organization is.
Linda Z
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