This may help. It's part of a letter i recieved when the we were questioning ces and other things. Has a lot of insight.
Boyd writes, “When a people – leaders – gets life from the rightness of their belief and behavior, they will invariably get life by attacking and/or separating from others who don’t see things exactly as they do, even within the body of Christ. They focus on the perimeter rather than the center. Feasting on their own particular versions of truth – which is to them the truth – they will form party lines that fragment the church and ostracize people… perimeters must be constantly attended to. In the name of purity of doctrine and holiness, the body is dismembered into many parts and there is always room for more division.”
This explains to me why there is so much strife in these small groups. There is such a preoccupation with who is in, who is out, who is doing what to whom, offenses, etc. because those things serve to define their perimeters and feed their “correctness.” It is a necessary process to such groups. Further, when someone steps out of the perimeter, but an offense can’t be defined, that sets up real confusion. -----, I think this is what is so frustrating and frightening to ------. She is living from perimeters and you are very confusing to her. She can’t pinpoint a sin, but you’ve chosen to disregard the perimeter and it makes no sense in her framework. So she feels abandoned.
“The essence of the religious spirit is getting life from being truer and more righteous than others, rather than getting life from God and Jesus. It is living off the perimeter rather than the center.” He discusses that out of this comes the need to constantly evaluate others and confront behavior and character. It’s all part of maintaining the perimeter.
He poses the question then, “How do we balance a concern to love non-judgmentally with a concern to become a holy people?” In answering that he distinguishes between our job and God’s job and points out that taking over God’s job is really lack of trust fueled by our desire to build our own system. “Though we may deny it, we are in fact presenting salvation as though it was a matter of getting others to conform to our version of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” God’s job is to bring about holiness, through the work of the spirit. We are to provide a setting for people that allows for that, which is leading people to Christ rather than our own contrived systems.
I believe that that journey looks so different for everyone, and only God/Jesus really have a fix on where someone is in their journey, so we are quite incapable judges. Plus we have our own filters (beams) that blind us.
Then he talks about confrontation – when is it appropriate. He points out that the only sin that Jesus publicly confronted was the false teaching & hypocrisy of the Pharisees and argues that because of their position of power the potential to harm people was extensive. He talks about the teacher’s right to teach about sin and the responsibility to use that with grace and generality, avoiding someone’s public embarrassment. But adds that just because someone has the right to teach, it doesn’t automatically extend into the right to confront privately. He compares someone’s willingness to hear you teach with an invitation into their foyer; with that invitation you don’t barge into their bedroom. It’s ultimately their job to apply the teaching. Then he addresses the intimate relationship in which someone has specifically given you permission to confront him. That relationship is characterized by mutual trust and love which is why the confrontation works. If the confrontation is really motivated by the need to bolster up your contrived system, it will ultimately destroy the relationship.
He writes, “Feedback is not offered on the basis of abstract, idealistic principles of right and wrong. Feedback is rather offered with a personal understanding and empathetic appreciation for the complex uniqueness of the person’s concrete situation…it is loving and helpful, not judgmental...In intimate contexts people are freed to be open about their struggles and to ask for help for they fear no judgment.” I think the operative word here is ASK, and they will if they feel safe.
That’s a mouthful, but I think an example of “feedback” based on abstract principles is statements like, “You need to account for depriving me of fellowship with you.” It leaves us all going, “What????” but makes perfect sense to those who are caught in a system needing to shore up boundaries.
I don't think there are any real winners when a mess like ces comes along. No one remains or walks away with out damage. I guess I'm thankful for waking up to what was going on, but I don't feel like a winner. Now when I found my redeemer Jesus I felt like a winner. still do.
To me, the simplicity of whether a leader, ANY leader, is working for the One True God, is to hold him up against Jesus Christ's life. Is he emulating Jesus? Does he handle people like Jesus did? Does he fight for our spiritual freedom at any cost...even to the point of risking his own life? Does he live a life that reminds us of Jesus Christ? Etc., etc.
I see Jesus Christ as a lighthouse in a storm. I may be floundering around in a sea of conflicting doctrinal opinions, mis-understood translations, do-gooder opinions, (and the list could go on ad nauseam) but the one simple fact is that, as long as I keep my "standard of measure" firmly based on the simplicity of Jesus Christ's life, I WILL find my way back to Him through the dung heap that TWI, and it's offspring, tried to bury me in. Jesus has proven to be my Saviour time and time again since I left that he!! hole. He has been my one and only TRUE friend. I thank God for his life every day. Without my brother, Jesus, by my side, I would have been sucker punched into yet another "organization".
My walk is extremely personal. It's between Jesus and me. No two will be the same. We are each individuals with unique abilities and characteristics. Why would God design a "one size fits all" kind of relationship. He didn't. Everything that make me me comes into play as I develop my personal walk with His Son. I am a unique son of God, and I'm righteously proud of that...you bet your arse I am!!!!!
So, leaders, be aware of your own walk, not mine. Let your walk be an inspiration to me, not a hinderance. Set an example that shows me Jesus Christ in action. Don't teach me how to walk, show me!! Don't teach me how to love, show me. Your example will do more to teach and heal the believers than all the words, in all the books ever written. Then, because of your example, I will be inspired to seek to improve my walk. But, YOU CAN'T improve my walk for me. Only I can do that.
Sorry for the rant, but this is close to my heart. I think leaders fall into this trap far to easily because they don't see these boundaries. Jesus LIVED what he preached, and NEVER force fed ANY desciple. He let them learn at their own pace and in their own way of understanding....and it worked!!!
The thing is...I just wonder why we need leaders....I mean with Jesus as our shepherd, with God as our sufficiency.
I just think that *leaders* interfere with us learning that on our own personal level.
I think each of us can be the hands/feet/mouth of God....those whom God worketh to will and to do of his good pleasure.
I just wonder if the concept of spiritual *leaders* is as archaic as the isrealites wanting kings...you know? We got em because we think we need em, rather than because they are really of any benefit.
I wonder if in trying to BE a leader, one has not already set their course for destruction....shrug
The thing is...I just wonder why we need leaders....I mean with Jesus as our shepherd, with God as our sufficiency.
I just think that *leaders* interfere with us learning that on our own personal level.
I think each of us can be the hands/feet/mouth of God....those whom God worketh to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Rascal,
I think that that is what it comes down to. The church has habituated itself to the top-down hierarchal systems of this world. Why don't Christians simply allow Jesus to build his church instead of trying to do it for him?
I'm not sure that what we expect of "leaders" is possible.
The Methodist church we occasionally attend has a woman that is a pastor. She never assumes the roll of a leader, she runs her bu tt off taking care of people. She is greatly loved for her efforts, her sermons are inspirational.
She would be offended if you referred to her as a leader...but she is in the truest sense of the word because she only seeks to help/serve.
I don`t think *leader* is a healthy spiritual concept for the leader or the follower. So long as people think that they need one though, I am sure that there are those who will assume the role for them.
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rich
This may help. It's part of a letter i recieved when the we were questioning ces and other things. Has a lot of insight.
Boyd writes, “When a people – leaders – gets life from the rightness of their belief and behavior, they will invariably get life by attacking and/or separating from others who don’t see things exactly as they do, even within the body of Christ. They focus on the perimeter rather than the center. Feasting on their own particular versions of truth – which is to them the truth – they will form party lines that fragment the church and ostracize people… perimeters must be constantly attended to. In the name of purity of doctrine and holiness, the body is dismembered into many parts and there is always room for more division.”
This explains to me why there is so much strife in these small groups. There is such a preoccupation with who is in, who is out, who is doing what to whom, offenses, etc. because those things serve to define their perimeters and feed their “correctness.” It is a necessary process to such groups. Further, when someone steps out of the perimeter, but an offense can’t be defined, that sets up real confusion. -----, I think this is what is so frustrating and frightening to ------. She is living from perimeters and you are very confusing to her. She can’t pinpoint a sin, but you’ve chosen to disregard the perimeter and it makes no sense in her framework. So she feels abandoned.
“The essence of the religious spirit is getting life from being truer and more righteous than others, rather than getting life from God and Jesus. It is living off the perimeter rather than the center.” He discusses that out of this comes the need to constantly evaluate others and confront behavior and character. It’s all part of maintaining the perimeter.
He poses the question then, “How do we balance a concern to love non-judgmentally with a concern to become a holy people?” In answering that he distinguishes between our job and God’s job and points out that taking over God’s job is really lack of trust fueled by our desire to build our own system. “Though we may deny it, we are in fact presenting salvation as though it was a matter of getting others to conform to our version of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” God’s job is to bring about holiness, through the work of the spirit. We are to provide a setting for people that allows for that, which is leading people to Christ rather than our own contrived systems.
I believe that that journey looks so different for everyone, and only God/Jesus really have a fix on where someone is in their journey, so we are quite incapable judges. Plus we have our own filters (beams) that blind us.
Then he talks about confrontation – when is it appropriate. He points out that the only sin that Jesus publicly confronted was the false teaching & hypocrisy of the Pharisees and argues that because of their position of power the potential to harm people was extensive. He talks about the teacher’s right to teach about sin and the responsibility to use that with grace and generality, avoiding someone’s public embarrassment. But adds that just because someone has the right to teach, it doesn’t automatically extend into the right to confront privately. He compares someone’s willingness to hear you teach with an invitation into their foyer; with that invitation you don’t barge into their bedroom. It’s ultimately their job to apply the teaching. Then he addresses the intimate relationship in which someone has specifically given you permission to confront him. That relationship is characterized by mutual trust and love which is why the confrontation works. If the confrontation is really motivated by the need to bolster up your contrived system, it will ultimately destroy the relationship.
He writes, “Feedback is not offered on the basis of abstract, idealistic principles of right and wrong. Feedback is rather offered with a personal understanding and empathetic appreciation for the complex uniqueness of the person’s concrete situation…it is loving and helpful, not judgmental...In intimate contexts people are freed to be open about their struggles and to ask for help for they fear no judgment.” I think the operative word here is ASK, and they will if they feel safe.
That’s a mouthful, but I think an example of “feedback” based on abstract principles is statements like, “You need to account for depriving me of fellowship with you.” It leaves us all going, “What????” but makes perfect sense to those who are caught in a system needing to shore up boundaries.
I don't think there are any real winners when a mess like ces comes along. No one remains or walks away with out damage. I guess I'm thankful for waking up to what was going on, but I don't feel like a winner. Now when I found my redeemer Jesus I felt like a winner. still do.
R
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Tzaia
It can be purchased through the CESTFI bookstore.
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rich
I guess they never read it.
Interesting they carry it. it clocks what they have been doing real well.
Maybe they did read it and thought it was a new doctrine they could promote. Or maybe it was " Everybody does it so it must be OK.
Just thinking outloud
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Listener
To me, the simplicity of whether a leader, ANY leader, is working for the One True God, is to hold him up against Jesus Christ's life. Is he emulating Jesus? Does he handle people like Jesus did? Does he fight for our spiritual freedom at any cost...even to the point of risking his own life? Does he live a life that reminds us of Jesus Christ? Etc., etc.
I see Jesus Christ as a lighthouse in a storm. I may be floundering around in a sea of conflicting doctrinal opinions, mis-understood translations, do-gooder opinions, (and the list could go on ad nauseam) but the one simple fact is that, as long as I keep my "standard of measure" firmly based on the simplicity of Jesus Christ's life, I WILL find my way back to Him through the dung heap that TWI, and it's offspring, tried to bury me in. Jesus has proven to be my Saviour time and time again since I left that he!! hole. He has been my one and only TRUE friend. I thank God for his life every day. Without my brother, Jesus, by my side, I would have been sucker punched into yet another "organization".
My walk is extremely personal. It's between Jesus and me. No two will be the same. We are each individuals with unique abilities and characteristics. Why would God design a "one size fits all" kind of relationship. He didn't. Everything that make me me comes into play as I develop my personal walk with His Son. I am a unique son of God, and I'm righteously proud of that...you bet your arse I am!!!!!
So, leaders, be aware of your own walk, not mine. Let your walk be an inspiration to me, not a hinderance. Set an example that shows me Jesus Christ in action. Don't teach me how to walk, show me!! Don't teach me how to love, show me. Your example will do more to teach and heal the believers than all the words, in all the books ever written. Then, because of your example, I will be inspired to seek to improve my walk. But, YOU CAN'T improve my walk for me. Only I can do that.
Sorry for the rant, but this is close to my heart. I think leaders fall into this trap far to easily because they don't see these boundaries. Jesus LIVED what he preached, and NEVER force fed ANY desciple. He let them learn at their own pace and in their own way of understanding....and it worked!!!
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rascal
The thing is...I just wonder why we need leaders....I mean with Jesus as our shepherd, with God as our sufficiency.
I just think that *leaders* interfere with us learning that on our own personal level.
I think each of us can be the hands/feet/mouth of God....those whom God worketh to will and to do of his good pleasure.
I just wonder if the concept of spiritual *leaders* is as archaic as the isrealites wanting kings...you know? We got em because we think we need em, rather than because they are really of any benefit.
I wonder if in trying to BE a leader, one has not already set their course for destruction....shrug
Just some thoughts.
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Listener
Well.......without leaders, who would we blame for the coffee not being hot enough?? Huh???
Actually, "leaders", in today's society, seems to imply one who is in charge and makes decisions for others'
and runs the show, keeps everyone straight, sets the direction all should follow, keeps the profits flowing, etc.
Biblically, it seems to me to take on more of the servant perspective, not one of "spiritual authority/maturity" over others,
but rather one who serves to meet the needs of others' and watches out for their well-being (but not controlling it).
Like Jesus, the perfect example of a leader/servant.
To me, a true spiritual leader gets off his fat a$$ and does whatever work needs to be done, thus teaching by example, and encouraging
everyone around him to join in on the fun.
TWI leaders would sit on their fat a$$s and bark orders, then cruely condemn someone for some insignificant mistake so that
others' could learn from it. How pathetic was that? Like vp & lcm (
) , perfect examples of how NOT to lead God's people.
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blarney
Rascal,
I think that that is what it comes down to. The church has habituated itself to the top-down hierarchal systems of this world. Why don't Christians simply allow Jesus to build his church instead of trying to do it for him?
I'm not sure that what we expect of "leaders" is possible.
Blarney
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excathedra
servant
a nice word
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rascal
Excellent word Ex.
The Methodist church we occasionally attend has a woman that is a pastor. She never assumes the roll of a leader, she runs her bu tt off taking care of people. She is greatly loved for her efforts, her sermons are inspirational.
She would be offended if you referred to her as a leader...but she is in the truest sense of the word because she only seeks to help/serve.
I don`t think *leader* is a healthy spiritual concept for the leader or the follower. So long as people think that they need one though, I am sure that there are those who will assume the role for them.
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Listener
Yeah, it's the ones that want to be "leaders" that scare me the most.
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