I think the real winners are the ones who realize it's all B.S. and finally set about living their own lives, without the burden of trying to please M.O.G.s, mini-M.O.G.s, or the current God-on-a-stick...
I agree with you friscoguy about trust lost, about confidence in God shaken. Many of us never recover our child like faith after the cruelty endured in twi, and now folks will have to start all over again in ces.
I have to say though.....I don`t know if I really believe that lcm or vpw and others will be *with us for eternitity.
I wonder if there might be a few *depart for I knew you not* s in store for some of us in twi who assume that our knowledge of formulas and scriptures equals knowing Jesus.
If I am mistaken when the time comes, I guess the universe will be a big place....lol undoubtedly I can find a quiet corner to avoid unpleasantries.
is this one of those pleas fo they are a christian so exempt from being held accountable because they worked for the grace alot more than the rest?
please I really do not think so.
it is like the dr. who hacks off the wrong leg in surgery and we all say together now now he was a good guy and made several successful operations untill the bad day this happened, heck what is one leg in the big picture of life huh?
I find your words comforting Friscoguy05, in several ways. I don't really need the comfort directly, in regards to CES or whatever all of this is about but there are times I do, no question about it.
When the equation is - if any member hurts or functions inappropriately ALL members suffer - I have to consider what that really means.
Members hurt frequently. Functioning is inappropriate regularly. Undesirabele, yes but a reality, yes.
There are different ways to view it - here's a few:
If the goal is to be at a "100 per cent" flawless, all good stuff, and the criteria is whether any member hurts or functions inappropriately, then...
We'll never be at 100 per cent because that undesirable reality is, well, reality.
If the goal is to be "100 per cent" a body, flaws and all, plus the good stuff, and the criteria is the family relationship of born again children of God, "sons of God", Christians then...
We're always that because we're always a family, that's our relationship.
If the goal is to be "100 per cent" a body, flaws and all, plus the good stuff, and we're a family in a relationship with Christ who helps everyone to grow, in their relationship with Him and God and we all do what we can when we can as best we can...
We can always be doing that.
It's not even really a "goal", as there's no striving to be a family. That's a done deal. There's effort to do good but we know that isn't always going to happen. We are in the relationship we are and have the capacity we do as God's planned it.
That's the way I try to look at everything overall as much as I can. To me it isn't so much that there aren't any winners in the end. The overall effect is very difficult to grasp. To people who know nothing about you or I, or say CES, what we do is said to have an effect on them, but what is it? What's lost? What's gained when "everything's right?" Lost when nearly everything's wrong?
Between people everything will never be right if the criteria is that no one makes a mistake and nothing ever goes wrong.
I would say one of the most powerful abilities we have in our capacity is to help one another. That's not easy, especially when those who need it don't want it or think they need it. How do we function in that kind of environment?
I think that by doing what we can do best - look to God, the instruction we have from the bible, our best common sense and consideration and using the spiritual capacities we have as a body that always work - prayer and a reliance on Christ and God to work within each member. They have a job to do too, and it's the powerful energizing blood that runs through the body that keeps it healthy. Let the supply come from the source.
There are simply some things we can't do for or with each other at times, other times we can. It appears to me but we can always let the spirit of God that binds us all together provide what's needed, let it do for each member the best it can do for them.
If we're all together somewhere down the line, that's the way God wants it. I really think that the capacity to pefectly view all of this life in proper perspective is possible, but doesn't happen anywhere near as much as we'd like it to. Again - the capacity to understand, forgive and handle everything all at once in our brains and hearts isn't within us. It's going to require honesty on our parts and God to provide what only He can.
I don't know if I would characterize it as losing trust in God, with the failures of these institutions, as such.
I think a lot of us found God AFTER we left, or were unceremoniously booted out. or the organization just plain failed.
Perhaps some lost a trust in what they thought to be God- a God that could only be experienced or understood by examining the bible under a microscope, and cutting very carefully along the dotted line with a rather sharp razor blade. Only those "qualified" could really do it properly..
Sheep were slaughtered by the hands of those they trusted as their shepards
And the rest of the sheep generally were not aware that they were being served mutton.
I think the REAL losers are the ones that know it's mutton, and just don't care.
This thread really blessed me this morning everyone.
Thanks.
I remember an outreach class with CES/S&T where the instructor asked us
"where else can you go and find unconditional love?"
I kept my answer to myself, but maybe a guy from Frisco might appreciate it:
A Grateful Dead Concert.
of course if you want holiness you'd best look elsewhere.
In all honesty, there were so many conditions required by CES with its code of conduct and such, that many of us fell from grace. The love got real cold when the conditions weren't being met.
I find that we need to find the secvurity of being unconditionally loved by a merciful God, before we can open our hearts up and let him in to purge away the unholiness.
What I am seeing at CES, under attorney's orders of course, is a desire to deny any wrong-doing in order to save face. Very religious and very unhealthy in my opinion.
I'm sure they are doing SOMETHING, quietly, behind closed doors.
So much for "living my life as an open book.."
As a follower, I wouldn't feel very comfortable, waiting for the future of MY "ministry" being decided in this fashion.
Especially being decided by the same people who brought it to this state.
I think people live under the illusion that the future of God's word is at stake here. There are no "losers", at least as the flock is concerned, unless you choose. There really is a life outside of that organization.
What I am seeing at CES, under attorney's orders of course, is a desire to deny any wrong-doing in order to save face. Very religious and very unhealthy in my opinion.
They are not listening to anybody that I'm aware of. So how can they change. It would admit a fault. What a copout.
right it is more than an illusion that the "word is at stake here" it is much more than an illusion.. it is a belief system that has enabled some to operate their life style thus far.
we read the newspaper or a magazine everyday and how often do we think the characters in the story is about is REALLY one of us? in some fantasy play out of a world only cult heads live in?
im moses your a prophet like debra whatever... but it is INSTILLED in many to live life like this. to believe this is our purpose our being the word and nothing but the word says .
so without the suthors dictating who is who the whole thing begins to crumble down into having to think for yourself and to look to What was REALLY at STAKE so much so he died and was raised again to LIFE. Jesus christ.
so what is hard about reading the bible and wroshiping God and having a relationship with a LORD?
the issue is few do, without these guys telling them how to do it what it really means etc. and whne a person comes along who attempts to not go along with the set program they are dismissed because they have not been instructed how.
it isnt about knowledge of the word it is more about ignorance of how to search and find Jesus christ in a personal realtionship that YOU alone own.
Yeah. I think what we are dealing with is the ego of man here..
Really. God is a LOT bigger than a little organization somewhere, in the middle of Indiana, or in a corn field in Ohio..
The organization in itself, in the large scheme of things, is not really THAT important. Without it, the bible will be there tomorrow, the sun will rise- chickens will crow..
dogs will bark.. kids will play.. in short, the world will not just stop in a moment of sillence, a tear in it's eye..
At the end of the day, there will still be a God.. without the help, or even hinderance for that matter, from an ORGANIZATION. The world isn't going to fall into utter darkness at it's demise.
Good question Hammer...perhaps the answer to that question lies at the center of this whole "cult thing"...
Why do some people need a guru?...an organization that revolves around group think and provides a "support system" for their faith?...or is it really just a "support system" for the egos and wallets of those who perch at the top of cult mountain?
Maybe it's time for some folks, who previously have been riding the coat tails of "God's special ministry/man/prophetess"...to venture into the land of faith without any man made mediators?...A personal relationship perhaps? Try it without any strings holding you up or any nets below you...you don't need anyone else to verify or confirm your faith.
The bible is written to the individual...not an organization...it's meant to be taken and responded to on an individual basis.
I'm not against Christians fellowshipping together...in fact, I think it's a good idea...but watch out for these control freaks who want to become conduits to the Almighty on your behalf...if you lay down with dogs, you will wake up with fleas.
many have lived a very nice life style off this system.
to work when you wnat to travel when and to where ever YOU want to rest when you feel you need to all of this is a life style few could ever imagine.
im not jealous really not because at the end of the day I believe we will answer to what we have done and who we have obeyed.
work is important and they do wrok when they want to how they want to and etc... come on now how many can do this in life and support large families and go to school and live in any manner they chose?
travel to see friends hold nice parties on the ocean for all of them come on...
it is MUCH more than an ego.
get a job and try to live as they do.
it doesnt happen .
when you own a business as well you must answer to the competition or eles.
not these guys.
this life style is a part of fantsy they want in life and what people support.
I think the real winners are the ones who realize it's all B.S. and finally set about living their own lives, without the burden of trying to please M.O.G.s, mini-M.O.G.s, or the current God-on-a-stick...
I totally agree with you Geo. Its so nice not having to have that kind of burden in our lives that is for sure.
Maybe it's time for some folks, who previously have been riding the coat tails of "God's special ministry/man/prophetess"...to venture into the land of faith without any man made mediators?...A personal relationship perhaps? Try it without any strings holding you up or any nets below you...you don't need anyone else to verify or confirm your faith.
Good point Groucho..
I think the strings you speak of are really chains..
"nobody has the package we've got.."
(no kidding..)
and people believe this. That nobody else has quite the handle on life an godliness that the organization has.
I think this is a very real fear for people.
That the demise of the "ministry" spells out the destruction of the "integrity of da WORD", whichi is "always at stake"..
that God's people won't have anyplace else to go, anything else to do..
that they might actually have to COMPROMISE and get along with a few christians with different beliefs if they want to fellowship elsewhere..
I think it is a step that is very frightening for some.. it was for me, leaving the "security blanket" of der vey.
I can't say ALL of ces's constituents, but I think that a LOT of them, NEVER LEFT THE WAY. Just imported it from New Knoxville to Indiana.
Destruction of the organization is a very real possibility.
Who would lose?
Honestly, I think nobody.
The mog/mogettes would be forced out into the "real world", which in all likelihood, they haven't really seen or had to deal with for over twenty years..
The constituency, after suffering some withdrawl, would find there is a lot more out here than what they really think, and find their induced fears are ungrounded.
EXCELLENT point Groucho. I almost feel as if the organization interferes with a personal relationship with God. If it`s anything like twi, I allowed them to do the work, to take the place so to speak.
I know that I freaked when leaving because I didn`t have anybody to tell me where God needed me of what he required me to do....I didn`t have anybody to tell me if I was off track.
All I know is that it took being very isolated sans formulas and personalities before I started the difficult journey of building a personal relationship and undertsanding.
I look back and realise that it is something that I never had, no matter how hard I strived to attain this during the years of working so hard in twi.
It wasn`t through a lack of genuine heartfelt effort. I did everything recomended, took every class enrolled in every program to be well pleasing to God and on the front lines spiritually....sigh...
It never felt right.
Do you guys ever think that we fought so hard for twi and now for ces is because we NEED it to be right? We will over look almost anything, find ways to justify the inexcusable simply because we cannot come to grips with the humbling knowledge that we were mistaken? That it was all a waste?
The most difficult decision in my life was when I realised that everything I had ever been taught to believe about God was probably a lie.....that I was going to have to start all over again....sigh
I would have to say that regardless of all that has/can and will be said about the "CES Crisis" in the final analysis what has been lost because of these issues is trust...trust in God, and his admonition that we treat the household of faith especially good and his desire for the functioning of the one body, trust in men and women who hold themselves out as walking and speaking for God, trust in our ability to find a place where we can take comfort in fellowshipping with one another with the belief that no matter what we have the Word and each other to turn to for guidance and resolution in any situation.
People sowed their hearts and lives in CES as they did in The Way International and in the end all the discord and division resulted in deep hurt and sadness in the hearts of God's people. Sheep were slaughtered by the hands of those they trusted as their shepards. Men and women who should have known better chose to ignore what they knew to be true, they turned from the knowledge of God and scorned his instruction. The sadness lies in the fact that like any earthly brother or sister we lose relationship with there is a deep sense of mourning and sadness and loss so too these men and women were and remain to be our brothers in Christ though we may never enjoy the fruits of that realtionship in our lifetimes.
Consider that be they who they were and or are, we will spend eternity with VPW and LCM and MG and whom ever else we choose to look at disparingly at. Consider also that God loves these individuals as he does all his children deeply.
In the end there are no winners because we are a body and when ANY member of that body is hurt or functions inappropriately ALL members of the body suffer.
The only winner here is the great deciever as he sits back and grins as the brethren, NOT HIM, slay each other.
Yes I think your viewpoint is a good one. Too many hurt people unfortunately just become hurters themselves.
As a Christian it's good to have a deep sense of understanding and compassion for our Christian brothers
Good question Hammer...perhaps the answer to that question lies at the center of this whole "cult thing"...
Why do some people need a guru?...an organization that revolves around group think and provides a "support system" for their faith?...or is it really just a "support system" for the egos and wallets of those who perch at the top of cult mountain?
Because they have no sense of 'self' or a distorted sense of self and need something outside of themselves to define who they are.
I had to think long and hard why I was attracted to these organizations in the first place and it was because it gave me an identity that was out of the realm of 'normal'. It made me more of a Christian, a better grade of believer, or so I was told.
What happened tho, was that I could never be good enough or worthy enough for the organization.
Now I know that God's grace is sufficient (which I learned in one of those 3 day things not Momentus. Knowing God's grace is sufficient made walking away easy.
Nicely said Tzaia. I sometimes wonder if it is possible to live and understand *my grace is sufficient for thee* (one of my favorite axioms to strive for) while participating in groups like this.
Our spiritualitity and relationships were always preformance based.
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George Aar
On the contrary,
I think the real winners are the ones who realize it's all B.S. and finally set about living their own lives, without the burden of trying to please M.O.G.s, mini-M.O.G.s, or the current God-on-a-stick...
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rascal
I agree with you friscoguy about trust lost, about confidence in God shaken. Many of us never recover our child like faith after the cruelty endured in twi, and now folks will have to start all over again in ces.
I have to say though.....I don`t know if I really believe that lcm or vpw and others will be *with us for eternitity.
I wonder if there might be a few *depart for I knew you not* s in store for some of us in twi who assume that our knowledge of formulas and scriptures equals knowing Jesus.
If I am mistaken when the time comes, I guess the universe will be a big place....lol undoubtedly I can find a quiet corner to avoid unpleasantries.
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pond
so we know they will be in the thid kingdom.
so what? I do not get your point.
is this one of those pleas fo they are a christian so exempt from being held accountable because they worked for the grace alot more than the rest?
please I really do not think so.
it is like the dr. who hacks off the wrong leg in surgery and we all say together now now he was a good guy and made several successful operations untill the bad day this happened, heck what is one leg in the big picture of life huh?
ask the guy with the wheel chair maybe.
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excathedra
now there's the problem
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socks
I find your words comforting Friscoguy05, in several ways. I don't really need the comfort directly, in regards to CES or whatever all of this is about but there are times I do, no question about it.
When the equation is - if any member hurts or functions inappropriately ALL members suffer - I have to consider what that really means.
Members hurt frequently. Functioning is inappropriate regularly. Undesirabele, yes but a reality, yes.
There are different ways to view it - here's a few:
If the goal is to be at a "100 per cent" flawless, all good stuff, and the criteria is whether any member hurts or functions inappropriately, then...
We'll never be at 100 per cent because that undesirable reality is, well, reality.
If the goal is to be "100 per cent" a body, flaws and all, plus the good stuff, and the criteria is the family relationship of born again children of God, "sons of God", Christians then...
We're always that because we're always a family, that's our relationship.
If the goal is to be "100 per cent" a body, flaws and all, plus the good stuff, and we're a family in a relationship with Christ who helps everyone to grow, in their relationship with Him and God and we all do what we can when we can as best we can...
We can always be doing that.
It's not even really a "goal", as there's no striving to be a family. That's a done deal. There's effort to do good but we know that isn't always going to happen. We are in the relationship we are and have the capacity we do as God's planned it.
That's the way I try to look at everything overall as much as I can. To me it isn't so much that there aren't any winners in the end. The overall effect is very difficult to grasp. To people who know nothing about you or I, or say CES, what we do is said to have an effect on them, but what is it? What's lost? What's gained when "everything's right?" Lost when nearly everything's wrong?
Between people everything will never be right if the criteria is that no one makes a mistake and nothing ever goes wrong.
I would say one of the most powerful abilities we have in our capacity is to help one another. That's not easy, especially when those who need it don't want it or think they need it. How do we function in that kind of environment?
I think that by doing what we can do best - look to God, the instruction we have from the bible, our best common sense and consideration and using the spiritual capacities we have as a body that always work - prayer and a reliance on Christ and God to work within each member. They have a job to do too, and it's the powerful energizing blood that runs through the body that keeps it healthy. Let the supply come from the source.
There are simply some things we can't do for or with each other at times, other times we can. It appears to me but we can always let the spirit of God that binds us all together provide what's needed, let it do for each member the best it can do for them.
If we're all together somewhere down the line, that's the way God wants it. I really think that the capacity to pefectly view all of this life in proper perspective is possible, but doesn't happen anywhere near as much as we'd like it to. Again - the capacity to understand, forgive and handle everything all at once in our brains and hearts isn't within us. It's going to require honesty on our parts and God to provide what only He can.
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excathedra
will the real losers please stand up
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Ham
I don't know if I would characterize it as losing trust in God, with the failures of these institutions, as such.
I think a lot of us found God AFTER we left, or were unceremoniously booted out. or the organization just plain failed.
Perhaps some lost a trust in what they thought to be God- a God that could only be experienced or understood by examining the bible under a microscope, and cutting very carefully along the dotted line with a rather sharp razor blade. Only those "qualified" could really do it properly..
And the rest of the sheep generally were not aware that they were being served mutton.
I think the REAL losers are the ones that know it's mutton, and just don't care.
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Estimated Prophet
Well said, Frisco Guy. Well said.
and Socks...you are Deep! God Bless You.
This thread really blessed me this morning everyone.
Thanks.
I remember an outreach class with CES/S&T where the instructor asked us
"where else can you go and find unconditional love?"
I kept my answer to myself, but maybe a guy from Frisco might appreciate it:
A Grateful Dead Concert.
of course if you want holiness you'd best look elsewhere.
In all honesty, there were so many conditions required by CES with its code of conduct and such, that many of us fell from grace. The love got real cold when the conditions weren't being met.
I find that we need to find the secvurity of being unconditionally loved by a merciful God, before we can open our hearts up and let him in to purge away the unholiness.
What I am seeing at CES, under attorney's orders of course, is a desire to deny any wrong-doing in order to save face. Very religious and very unhealthy in my opinion.
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rascal
I agree EP, what might be legally advisable is not necessarily spiritually wholesome.
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Ham
It's pretty ironic, they claim to be bound by the word of God, and in the end, they are bound by the word of the lawyers.
Kinda pathetic.
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Ham
I'm sure they are doing SOMETHING, quietly, behind closed doors.
So much for "living my life as an open book.."
As a follower, I wouldn't feel very comfortable, waiting for the future of MY "ministry" being decided in this fashion.
Especially being decided by the same people who brought it to this state.
I think people live under the illusion that the future of God's word is at stake here. There are no "losers", at least as the flock is concerned, unless you choose. There really is a life outside of that organization.
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rich
What I am seeing at CES, under attorney's orders of course, is a desire to deny any wrong-doing in order to save face. Very religious and very unhealthy in my opinion.
They are not listening to anybody that I'm aware of. So how can they change. It would admit a fault. What a copout.
What happened to the truth will set you free?
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pond
right it is more than an illusion that the "word is at stake here" it is much more than an illusion.. it is a belief system that has enabled some to operate their life style thus far.
we read the newspaper or a magazine everyday and how often do we think the characters in the story is about is REALLY one of us? in some fantasy play out of a world only cult heads live in?
im moses your a prophet like debra whatever... but it is INSTILLED in many to live life like this. to believe this is our purpose our being the word and nothing but the word says .
so without the suthors dictating who is who the whole thing begins to crumble down into having to think for yourself and to look to What was REALLY at STAKE so much so he died and was raised again to LIFE. Jesus christ.
so what is hard about reading the bible and wroshiping God and having a relationship with a LORD?
the issue is few do, without these guys telling them how to do it what it really means etc. and whne a person comes along who attempts to not go along with the set program they are dismissed because they have not been instructed how.
it isnt about knowledge of the word it is more about ignorance of how to search and find Jesus christ in a personal realtionship that YOU alone own.
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Ham
Yeah. I think what we are dealing with is the ego of man here..
Really. God is a LOT bigger than a little organization somewhere, in the middle of Indiana, or in a corn field in Ohio..
The organization in itself, in the large scheme of things, is not really THAT important. Without it, the bible will be there tomorrow, the sun will rise- chickens will crow..
dogs will bark.. kids will play.. in short, the world will not just stop in a moment of sillence, a tear in it's eye..
At the end of the day, there will still be a God.. without the help, or even hinderance for that matter, from an ORGANIZATION. The world isn't going to fall into utter darkness at it's demise.
I think priorities are all in the wrong place.
Why be afraid?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Good question Hammer...perhaps the answer to that question lies at the center of this whole "cult thing"...
Why do some people need a guru?...an organization that revolves around group think and provides a "support system" for their faith?...or is it really just a "support system" for the egos and wallets of those who perch at the top of cult mountain?
Maybe it's time for some folks, who previously have been riding the coat tails of "God's special ministry/man/prophetess"...to venture into the land of faith without any man made mediators?...A personal relationship perhaps? Try it without any strings holding you up or any nets below you...you don't need anyone else to verify or confirm your faith.
The bible is written to the individual...not an organization...it's meant to be taken and responded to on an individual basis.
I'm not against Christians fellowshipping together...in fact, I think it's a good idea...but watch out for these control freaks who want to become conduits to the Almighty on your behalf...if you lay down with dogs, you will wake up with fleas.
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pond
ya know im sorry this may sound trite but
hello
many have lived a very nice life style off this system.
to work when you wnat to travel when and to where ever YOU want to rest when you feel you need to all of this is a life style few could ever imagine.
im not jealous really not because at the end of the day I believe we will answer to what we have done and who we have obeyed.
work is important and they do wrok when they want to how they want to and etc... come on now how many can do this in life and support large families and go to school and live in any manner they chose?
travel to see friends hold nice parties on the ocean for all of them come on...
it is MUCH more than an ego.
get a job and try to live as they do.
it doesnt happen .
when you own a business as well you must answer to the competition or eles.
not these guys.
this life style is a part of fantsy they want in life and what people support.
yes i do think it is a motive.
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excathedra
'tis a shame people support them
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vickles
I totally agree with you Geo. Its so nice not having to have that kind of burden in our lives that is for sure.
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Ham
Good point Groucho..
I think the strings you speak of are really chains..
"nobody has the package we've got.."
(no kidding..)
and people believe this. That nobody else has quite the handle on life an godliness that the organization has.
I think this is a very real fear for people.
That the demise of the "ministry" spells out the destruction of the "integrity of da WORD", whichi is "always at stake"..
that God's people won't have anyplace else to go, anything else to do..
that they might actually have to COMPROMISE and get along with a few christians with different beliefs if they want to fellowship elsewhere..
I think it is a step that is very frightening for some.. it was for me, leaving the "security blanket" of der vey.
I can't say ALL of ces's constituents, but I think that a LOT of them, NEVER LEFT THE WAY. Just imported it from New Knoxville to Indiana.
Destruction of the organization is a very real possibility.
Who would lose?
Honestly, I think nobody.
The mog/mogettes would be forced out into the "real world", which in all likelihood, they haven't really seen or had to deal with for over twenty years..
The constituency, after suffering some withdrawl, would find there is a lot more out here than what they really think, and find their induced fears are ungrounded.
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rascal
EXCELLENT point Groucho. I almost feel as if the organization interferes with a personal relationship with God. If it`s anything like twi, I allowed them to do the work, to take the place so to speak.
I know that I freaked when leaving because I didn`t have anybody to tell me where God needed me of what he required me to do....I didn`t have anybody to tell me if I was off track.
All I know is that it took being very isolated sans formulas and personalities before I started the difficult journey of building a personal relationship and undertsanding.
I look back and realise that it is something that I never had, no matter how hard I strived to attain this during the years of working so hard in twi.
It wasn`t through a lack of genuine heartfelt effort. I did everything recomended, took every class enrolled in every program to be well pleasing to God and on the front lines spiritually....sigh...
It never felt right.
Do you guys ever think that we fought so hard for twi and now for ces is because we NEED it to be right? We will over look almost anything, find ways to justify the inexcusable simply because we cannot come to grips with the humbling knowledge that we were mistaken? That it was all a waste?
The most difficult decision in my life was when I realised that everything I had ever been taught to believe about God was probably a lie.....that I was going to have to start all over again....sigh
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caribousam
Yes I think your viewpoint is a good one. Too many hurt people unfortunately just become hurters themselves.
As a Christian it's good to have a deep sense of understanding and compassion for our Christian brothers
and sisters.
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rich
There is a good book called "hurt people hurt people" by Sandra Wilson. sets the picture clear.
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Tzaia
Because they have no sense of 'self' or a distorted sense of self and need something outside of themselves to define who they are.
I had to think long and hard why I was attracted to these organizations in the first place and it was because it gave me an identity that was out of the realm of 'normal'. It made me more of a Christian, a better grade of believer, or so I was told.
What happened tho, was that I could never be good enough or worthy enough for the organization.
Now I know that God's grace is sufficient (which I learned in one of those 3 day things not Momentus. Knowing God's grace is sufficient made walking away easy.
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rascal
Nicely said Tzaia. I sometimes wonder if it is possible to live and understand *my grace is sufficient for thee* (one of my favorite axioms to strive for) while participating in groups like this.
Our spiritualitity and relationships were always preformance based.
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