I think it might be beneficial to look at the issue as it relates to specific subcatagories such as:
1.) In the marriage
2.)In the workplace
3.) In society in general
4.) In positions of political authority
I'm sure there are other subcatagories to add to the list.
Oen and Waysider, thanks for the input. It's great to hear the opinions of you men on this topic. Maybe Mars and Venus can converge.
In the marriage:
It's hard for me to say this with confidence since I didn't have a successful marriage.
Given that what I ultimately want in a man/woman relationship for myself is a partnership. A partnership glued together by the love a man and woman have for each other. I don't believe a man should lord over the woman and that a wise man will listen to his wife. But then there are times a wife should trust her husband as well -- a partnership. Ultimately though someone has to make a final decision. Is that biblically the man? That's what I have been taught, but maybe I don't really know what I thought I knew about the bible in that category.
In the workplace
Whoever is the best person for the job. If a woman is more qualified then she should have the position
In Society in General
Well I still think a woman can have authority here. I have met 3 such women in the last 3 years. I am awarded a large scholarship given by the Women's alliance at the university I attend. These women have made such large impacts in our community and yet they think I am amazing because I go to college, work full time, and raise three kids. When in my mind they are the amazing ones. They are doing what I want to do -- making an impact on society -- something I would like to achieve before I die. One woman in particular I met was the daughter of Brown in Brown vs. the Board of Ed. She spoke at one of our dinners and what an amazing lady she is. She has a positive influence on the education system, on the lives of black women in the US and among women in general. She is without a doubt one of the most influential and amazing women I have ever met, and an articulate speaker as well. One woman I would love to meet eventually is Maya Angelou. A poet but a philosopher of sorts. She has also had an amazing impact on women with her words of wisdom.
In political positions
Hmmmm, well I don't have a problem with the fact that we here in Kansas have a woman Governor. As a matter of fact when I wrote her of a concern of mine she actually wrote me back and put one of her staff on solving the problem. I don't have a problem with the women we have in public office on the national level either. Meaning the senate and the congress. I just have a problem with a woman being the president of the US. But maybe that's my way upbringing, maybe that's some waythink I haven't removed from my mind yet.
I like Kathy's suggestion
In the bedroom
Well I guess that just depends on the couple and what they are comfortable with but I think taking turns being the one in authority would be fun. tee hee hee.
I was so busy writing my last post that I almost missed the silliness.
In my marriage I tend to give over the final decision in regards to big money issues because hubby makes much more than I can so I feel he is ultimately paying for whatever the need is. But we still discuss options and I feel my input is as valuable as his. He still feels if a decision had to be made and I was opposed he might still make the call I suspect though. But he walks pretty careful in those regards anymore and would not just do it without considering the impact on me also.
In the workplace I do believe it is whoever is best qualified but I also feel that a man can do some things easier due to physical strength and I think that should be respected by the woman. And in the corporate world I have found a good secretary literally can make the man.
In society I think there may be more equality than ever before because women are in the mix in more ways than ever and it appears to run well from what I can see. Not so in other counties where the woman is a lesser being to the men though and I thank God our men are not of that mindset.
In politics I would like to see a woman as President but I know it is far from happening, even if they are running now it is very doubtful they would get the job. We just aren't quite there yet I suspect even though the men on this board seem more reasonable in those areas than men as a whole. I think some of that comes from what we've all been through and with that has come wisdom and understanding of each other.
In the bedroom I agree with FreeAtLast. ;)
(and QT that was a very kind thing to say about me, thank you for that)
I tend to look at situations like this from the big picture first, then whittle down to the day by day stuff. I believe that authority is not merely something delegated by people, but is a God given quality of life put there to help ALL interpersonal relationships stay on course.
As a child I had a friend named Al. We met in the 4th grade and by the end of high school there were 3 other guys in our clique. Al was the recognized leader. The rest of us did not get together and vote for Al to be our clique leader; Al just assumed the role. He created the authority he had and we let him function that way.
In Eph. 5 and 6 there are 3 interpersonal relationships basic to life covered in detail. Most people IMO are part of all 3 at times. They are husband/wife, parent/child, and employer/employee. In all 3 the one under authority is addressed first followed by the one in authority. Ideally, the one in authority is successful because those under authority let that person be successful. Each side of the equation needs to give the other their space for it to work.
Most of the feminine has been taken out of the bible. If a person cares to really research this they will find lots and lots of feminine in the bible. I'm not quite sure why men were so afraid of women down through the ages. Alot of the churches and non-denominational STILL are.
I totally do not understand why a woman could not perform the duties of President, nor do I understand those who find it absurd to consider. Let me make it clear, I understand you HAVE those ideas, and you certainly are free to hold them, but I do not understand where they come from.
I doubt I will contribute much on this thread, but I had to come back to this before going to sleep in order to express the following: I find it offensive, (and I am a man), to belittle women's ability to perform their responsibilities due to their monthly cycles or hormonal changes. Perhaps I am odd this way, but sexism and racism, and barriers to sexual or racial equality of opportunity bug the heck out of me. Ok, that said I can go to bed now, I got it off my chest.
I think final decisions in a marriage should be made by the one who is most comfortable, and most confident making them. All decisions that affect both spouses should be considered jointly, with equal weight given to both views. Final decisions should seek to be acceptable to all, even if some compromises need to be made by both. Consensus means that all concerned can give full support to the outcome, since a good consensus decision harms neither party, even if they did not get everything they wanted from the process.
It was a woman that brought PMS up I believe and I think it was in part jest. I know I have mentioned that 'm' word in jest myself and had no intention of it belittling us women. However the reality is that we have hormones that at times can rack and ruin our insides but that does not mean we are not capable of civil behavior and making fair and wise decisions.
But it was cool for a man to address it as you did actually.
I thought I would move this topic over here. It was mentioned that a woman should not have authority over a man in another thread. Outside of the marriage relationship what are your thoughts on women in positions of authority...
Great thread, FreeAtLast - I don't have a problem with women in positions of authority. I think that sometimes friction develops when insecurities fester [on both sides] and the gender issue overshadows any matters at hand. When it comes down to my criteria for choosing a person for a "management" role – I look at the individual – I do recognize our gender plays a part in the way we process info and make decisions – and I think that is a great design by our Creator! If you were to force me to use TWI's male-mindset – then I'll tell you right off the bat – I'd pick Eve over Adam for a leadership position! She only made an error in judgment whereas he made an error in heart. Or to re-phrase my logic in management review board terms: She unknowingly fell victim to a scam – he in full knowledge deliberately violated company policy.
I wonder if men can actually feel relieved when they no longer have to walk the twi mindset of the head of the house and if that could encourage a better relationship between the couple once they are no longer married to each other.
I think so…Tonto and I get along great! I'm an easy going person and not a I've-gotta-be-in-charge type. The TWI years of our marriage were tough – in that I was trying to be someone I was not.
Yeah I am the one who made the pms hormone joke. Well you know how to make a hormone don't you? Don't pay her. da dum. Thank you thank you.
Personally I think if I were running for president then maybe it would be ok to have a woman in the office. :P
Well I would elect someone like Maya Angelou, level headed moral woman, but the women that would consider running are women like our former first lady. I think an evil self serving woman is worse than an evil self serving man because of hormonal issues. Even those in menopause could be driven by hormonal issues, and believe me I have know women going through that stage that would rip your head off for looking at them funny.
So T-Bone what was your opinion on the matter? Thanks for filling in the gaps t-bone.
I can almost guarantee, that people have learned a pure way of loving whether by having loving family, or whatever influences that definition to them.. tend never to walk away from it..it may change in color, be viewed in a different spectrum of light..but I know for me I learned a special love..My past experience with the way, and other experience's have flawed me in areas, but I do rest in the assurance that somewhere it is.
Getting back to the head or not.I think the marriage is a seperate institution set up by God for example submiting, but the definitions may very couple to couple as they determine the qualities or strengths that will help that relationship stay close and ride the waves in life...I think a man and women must work thru thier difficulties to ensure each heart is trusted in order to the decisions make certain types of decisions.The man needs respect and a women needs to know she is loved..I understand that...and that is biblical
For me, I like being the woman:) I am not the go getter female who has to climb a ladder to feel successful.Nor do I flaunt clevage for attention...If so she is using her tools to get where she needs to go in the corporate setting... I have seen troubles in marriages where the wife made more money..it caused problems..THe are many variables, I suppose.
I told my daughter's to wait until they were 30 or so to get married....be single, get your education, find your self within and have fun....so far my oldest waited till she was 26, she is married, education done, has gone skydiving, she is a motivator, and is learning to ski, seen Paul's Well, es military, has taken things very seriously, became independant and is taking the time to learn more about marriage..she picked an awesome son in law and husband..and they are building a wonderful understanding of love together..
I have been thinking. I have also been up all night and am working on just a few hours sleep. I will, therefore, make my usual attempts at coherent grammar, but, I make no promises today--so please shout out if I write something requiring clarification.
I think many of us have taken the questions posed and looked at them through a personal filter. I know I have. I've spent some time in consideration of the point "Women's Authority in Society," and while I'm rather a skeptic when it comes to just laying out random statistics, I believe this might be a good point in the discussion to raise the topic of Gender Bias and how it relates to us all.
I have worked, as most people know, as a writer and now am in a more academic setting. I'll start with some definitions and then talk about numbers.
Gender: A socially defined category in which the biological specialization of male and female are transformed by associating specific personality, role, and status traits to each sex.
Gender bias: Behavior that results from the underlying belief in sex role stereotypes.
Gender discrimination: Any action that specifically denies opportunities, privileges, or rewards to a person or a group because of their sex.
Genderized traits: Traits such as aggression or empathy that are differentially valued by a society when displayed by males and females.
Gender role identity: The sense of identity that one acquires as a result of internalizing specific social requirements of behavior based on one's sex.
Gender role socialization: The process by which young children acquire the knowledge and internalize the values of socially determined sex roles.
Gender role stereotyping: The process of attributing specific behaviors, abilities, interests, and values to one sex.
Gender-sensitive : Instructional and other practices that take differences in gender into account.
Whether we were conscious of it or not, any women reading this, including myself writing it, have probably faced some amount of gender bias and discrimination when it comes to our professions. The facts bear out that the ratio of median weekly earnings for Full-time wage and salary workers over a vast selection of occupations has not equalized since the 80s and, in fact, is widening in some areas.
I will put out these numbers, published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The current data that has been analyzed is from 2001 you will notice. The data from subsequent years, from what I've read, shows the same trend, but these numbers are easily available and cross-referenced.
Occupation: 2001 % women to men earnings ratio 1983 % W-toM earnings ratio
Financial Managers 70.0 % 63.8%
Physicians 62.8% 81.5%
Securites and financial services/sales 62.9% NA
Marketing/Advertising/PR 64.5% 60.1%
(managers)
Production Coordinators 64.6% 75.7%
Sales supervisors/proprietors 65.7% 61.6%
Supervisors, cleaning and building 67.2% NA
service workers
Designers 67.6% 66.7%
Totals: 76.2% 66.7%
Now, the NA in these numbers reflect data that was Not Available, and there are no estimations made for occupations of 50,000 persons or less, but I still find these numbers to be intriguing.
The truth is, most people may not even be aware that their salary compares in such fashion with peers and colleagues, but, when you consider the economic status of women globally...not even in just this country...the numbers become frightening. I can provide them, so pm me if you're interested, it may not be topical here.
In Throughout the History of Western Culture, Sandra Bem (professor of of psychiatry at Cornell University and multi-published author) writes:
...three beliefs about women and men have prevailed: that they have fundamentally different psychological and sexual natures, that men are inherently the dominant or superior sex, and that both male-female difference and male dominance are natural. Until the mid-nineteenth century, this naturalness was typically conceived of in religious terms, as part of God's grand creation. Since then it has typically been conceived in scientific terms, as part of biology's -- or evolution's -- grand creation.
Consequently, most Americans did not see any inconsistency between commitment to equality and denial of political rights to women until the appearance of the women's movement in the mid-nineteenth century. This first wave of feminist advocacy not only established women's basic political rights; it also made the inconsistency between ideology and the treatment of women widely visible for the first time in U.S. history.
Beginning in the 1960s, the second major wave of feminist advocacy raised social consciousness still further by exposing -- and naming -- the "sexism" in all policies and practices that discriminate on the basis of sex.
This second feminine challenge gradually enabled people to see that restricting the number of women in professional schools or paying women less for equal work was not a natural requirement of women's biological and historical role of wife and mother but an illegitimate form of discrimination based on outmoded cultural stereotypes
. Even political reactionaries began to espouse the principle of equal work.
This certainly can give us something to think about when considering that the authority of a woman is like in our culture today. Additionally, Bem and other professionals use the term "Androcentrism" which means Male-centeredness, and is, again quoting Bem, "the historically crude perception that men are inherently superior to women which leads to the more insidious perception that make experience is the natural standard or, norm, and that the female experience is a sex-specific deviation from that norm."
An interesting article concerning Gender Bias in Academic Sciences at MIT has brought to my attention that even in the fields known for rigorous and ruthless adherence to results based on data and replicable results is not immune from the reality of gender bias.
Now, how I approach the understanding of the understanding of this information is personal, and from here to the end, my statements are just that, personal.
I believe that we have, all of us here, grown up and matured in a time of transition between what was once generally accepted as the natural order of things and learned to question that order and make comparisons, adjustments and evaluations based on an ever-widening body of knowledge. To say that there is one order that is right is a difficult statement. If one bases this understanding of what is right only on one book or several, I pose the question, "Well, who wrote that book and why? What was that author's cultural context, and does that cultural context apply today in the same way?" We all must adopt a standard of some kind, I acknowledge that freely. Here I am simply suggesting that to do so without applying critical thought may be detrimental. Even as scientists, we have a very difficult time applying that standard of natural order, which is why there have been entirely new classification headings added to taxonomy even in the time since I left University the first time and my recent return to academia.
I do not suggest that it is right or wrong for an individual to make a choice about what his or her individual role in society is based on the systems of belief that are dear to them. I do suggest that it is wrong to simply dismiss out of hand the ideas and beliefs of others simply because it doesn't fit into a person's specific personal lexicon.
All that to say...while some may believe that my place in society is pre-determined by my gender, I don't have to accept his or her belief as truth. Performance and results speak loudly to me. If I can perform the job as well or even better than my male counterpart, then I insist that my right to equal or greater compensation based on performance is valid.
How then does this affect my view on personal relationships? I can only speak to what I know. I have a person in my life to whom I am deeply attached. Part of the attraction for me is his demand that I not only be myself but accept my abilities as they are and not apologize for them. He stretches my mind in ways that are painful and speaks simple truths. He never flatters me or worse yet, patronizes me, he simply expects me to return to him the same stark honesty on equal terms. He is a simple man. He is just himself. That suits me, since I'm just me. We exist in our own spaces and manage our own, individual lives and seem to rub along fairly well. And, if, at night, when we snuggle down into the pillows, then we leave most of our cultural concerns at the bedroom door and what passes between us as conversation falls into the realm of private, secret language between lovers. And, if I bend my forehead to touch his shoulder, it is not because I've been told that is the natural order of things...it is because I trust him to handle those parts of me that are precious to myself with love and great care. If, in some ways he takes care of me it is not because I am incapable of doing it myself, or in need of care-taking, but because I choose to allow it. To me, that's an expression of my own authority--to transfer that authority to someone else when the time is right, and to pick it back up when it's time again.
Oh, and Excie...yeah...it's all about love.
Yours respectfully and thoughtfully and with apologies for length of post,
I have been thinking. I have also been up all night and am working on just a few hours sleep. I will, therefore, make my usual attempts at coherent grammar, but, I make no promises today--so please shout out if I write something requiring clarification.
I do not suggest that it is right or wrong for an individual to make a choice about what his or her individual role in society is based on the systems of belief that are dear to them. I do suggest that it is wrong to simply dismiss out of hand the ideas and beliefs of others simply because it doesn't fit into a person's specific personal lexicon.
How then does this affect my view on personal relationships? I can only speak to what I know. I have a person in my life to whom I am deeply attached. Part of the attraction for me is his demand that I not only be myself but accept my abilities as they are and not apologize for them. He stretches my mind in ways that are painful and speaks simple truths. He never flatters me or worse yet, patronizes me, he simply expects me to return to him the same stark honesty on equal terms. He is a simple man. He is just himself. That suits me, since I'm just me. We exist in our own spaces and manage our own, individual lives and seem to rub along fairly well. And, if, at night, when we snuggle down into the pillows, then we leave most of our cultural concerns at the bedroom door and what passes between us as conversation falls into the realm of private, secret language between lovers. And, if I bend my forehead to touch his shoulder, it is not because I've been told that is the natural order of things...it is because I trust him to handle those parts of me that are precious to myself with love and great care. If, in some ways he takes care of me it is not because I am incapable of doing it myself, or in need of care-taking, but because I choose to allow it. To me, that's an expression of my own authority--to transfer that authority to someone else when the time is right, and to pick it back up when it's time again.
Even when I try to be clear I can't match you doing it when fatigued.
I love the personal lexicon example.
Your description of behind closed doors is simply wonderful.
Other things I need to think about because you provided so much here.
This has been a great Post and I am so happy that some of the guys posted to it....it says volumes about them.
I am partial to the prince charming lover type too...excathedra as long as he agrees to transfer of authority theory!
There is nothing that I know of to add it have been well covered by all my brilliant sisters and brothers. Everyone added so much quality of knowledge experience and depth of Heart; which leaves me a lot to think about.
My personal opinion is that we tranfer authority a lot these days. Based on qualifications and love and respect for one another and I think that is what God is saying in Ephesians about the man and women relationship as a whole. The wisest thing is to yield to the person with the most qualified credentials as long as they have a huge heart of love to temper all their decisions
I would vote for anyone of the Brilliant women here at GSC (or men); as I am absolutely sure that any of you are more than over-qualified, honest and trustworthy! That would probably be politically incorrect..... but perfect!
great posts guys. I don't have time to respond to everything but wow! QT and Like an eagle. Great posts. I don't even know where to start to respond to those or maybe I should just do what Kathy did.
You add loads so don't you dare cut yourself short okeedokee! I speak from experience in that because I am famous for cutting me down.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I've noticed in IT which is where my physical office is located that there are more men and it seems so other places as well. I have attributed it to how our brains work. And have heard things about the male brain being more mathematical whereas the female brain more expressive/planning and detail minded. Although the mechanics of math would include detail minded so that can't be a generalization in my limited understanding.
These things have to make up why we go after certain things in life like employment, ways of release in play or sports and even who we are drawn to in ways of love.
When the women's movement first started I was a teenager raised in a home where I never even considered not becoming a wife that took care of the house, children, made sure there was dinner on the table every night and things of that nature which never left me even to this day. Then my mother began to work outside the home and my views expanded some with hers, still she maintained the role she had been raised with of caring for all the home details and so I again retained them thinking women must be able to do it all.
One of my jobs in the mid 70's was doing a job that I shared with a male. We each took turns taking the hard drives off (big ole things) and replacing them and doing back ups and that sort of thing in the computer center for Sears. For some reason a rule was broken that never should have been and I became aware he was making $1.50 more an hour than I was for the exact same responsibilities and I was ticked. I went to our boss and asked why that was and he replied because he is a male. That didn't satisfy me and I pushed how did that justify the difference and he told me that a male is considered the head of the household and they have to earn more. I left and went home and kicked the trash can.
I think all these things are similar for all of us older than 30 and I for one am thankful there is more equality now than then and feel that is a good thing. But I suspect there are miles to go to get where some women and men are pleased with it.
Hey, Rainbow'sGirl, I'm in total agreement with Kathy, here. You've wonderful insight and information to share. You have a lovely, open and generous heart. Likewise, LikeAnEagle, Kathy, and FreeAtLast--I learn so much from your additions to all the threads I read here.
I am thinking about your last post, Kathy, and I, too, am pleased that there is more equality and that we are learning to view our society from more than one perspective.
I would suggest that even this very thread speaks to the advance of thought. I have not noticed any of the men who've posted here speak with that other than respect and interest to the topic. No one has said, "Y'all girls just go on and have your little talk now." Patted us on our collective heads and sent us on our way. The nature of communication in forums is to share and exchange ideas and explore differences. This thread has proven to be interesting, informative, and I think we've all shown good manners.
Thanks to all who've shared what they think and feel about this. I do appreciate everything I've read!
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QuietThinker
LOL, I meant for that comment to go up with the marriage paragraph....silly QT and buttery fingers :)
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ChattyKathy
I swear I still laugh at what the police officer that found Bobbitt's lost jewels must have said to his wife when she asked him what he did today.
(it came to mind with you two talking about men and scapels)
I reckon that should have been jewel rather than jewels.
Okay I will be serious now I promise. :unsure:
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QuietThinker
Hey Kathy,
I lived not 20 miles from where the event took place when it took place. *snirk snirk*
much speculation on that point!
~QT
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FreeAtLast
Oen and Waysider, thanks for the input. It's great to hear the opinions of you men on this topic. Maybe Mars and Venus can converge.
In the marriage:
It's hard for me to say this with confidence since I didn't have a successful marriage.
Given that what I ultimately want in a man/woman relationship for myself is a partnership. A partnership glued together by the love a man and woman have for each other. I don't believe a man should lord over the woman and that a wise man will listen to his wife. But then there are times a wife should trust her husband as well -- a partnership. Ultimately though someone has to make a final decision. Is that biblically the man? That's what I have been taught, but maybe I don't really know what I thought I knew about the bible in that category.
In the workplace
Whoever is the best person for the job. If a woman is more qualified then she should have the position
In Society in General
Well I still think a woman can have authority here. I have met 3 such women in the last 3 years. I am awarded a large scholarship given by the Women's alliance at the university I attend. These women have made such large impacts in our community and yet they think I am amazing because I go to college, work full time, and raise three kids. When in my mind they are the amazing ones. They are doing what I want to do -- making an impact on society -- something I would like to achieve before I die. One woman in particular I met was the daughter of Brown in Brown vs. the Board of Ed. She spoke at one of our dinners and what an amazing lady she is. She has a positive influence on the education system, on the lives of black women in the US and among women in general. She is without a doubt one of the most influential and amazing women I have ever met, and an articulate speaker as well. One woman I would love to meet eventually is Maya Angelou. A poet but a philosopher of sorts. She has also had an amazing impact on women with her words of wisdom.
In political positions
Hmmmm, well I don't have a problem with the fact that we here in Kansas have a woman Governor. As a matter of fact when I wrote her of a concern of mine she actually wrote me back and put one of her staff on solving the problem. I don't have a problem with the women we have in public office on the national level either. Meaning the senate and the congress. I just have a problem with a woman being the president of the US. But maybe that's my way upbringing, maybe that's some waythink I haven't removed from my mind yet.
I like Kathy's suggestion
In the bedroom
Well I guess that just depends on the couple and what they are comfortable with but I think taking turns being the one in authority would be fun. tee hee hee.
I was so busy writing my last post that I almost missed the silliness.
I often said that bobbits name was appropriate.
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ChattyKathy
I bet the officer that picked it up had a glove on.
FreeAtLast,
I need to get up for a few but I wanted to look at your post again when I get back here.
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ChattyKathy
In my marriage I tend to give over the final decision in regards to big money issues because hubby makes much more than I can so I feel he is ultimately paying for whatever the need is. But we still discuss options and I feel my input is as valuable as his. He still feels if a decision had to be made and I was opposed he might still make the call I suspect though. But he walks pretty careful in those regards anymore and would not just do it without considering the impact on me also.
In the workplace I do believe it is whoever is best qualified but I also feel that a man can do some things easier due to physical strength and I think that should be respected by the woman. And in the corporate world I have found a good secretary literally can make the man.
In society I think there may be more equality than ever before because women are in the mix in more ways than ever and it appears to run well from what I can see. Not so in other counties where the woman is a lesser being to the men though and I thank God our men are not of that mindset.
In politics I would like to see a woman as President but I know it is far from happening, even if they are running now it is very doubtful they would get the job. We just aren't quite there yet I suspect even though the men on this board seem more reasonable in those areas than men as a whole. I think some of that comes from what we've all been through and with that has come wisdom and understanding of each other.
In the bedroom I agree with FreeAtLast. ;)
(and QT that was a very kind thing to say about me, thank you for that)
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johniam
I tend to look at situations like this from the big picture first, then whittle down to the day by day stuff. I believe that authority is not merely something delegated by people, but is a God given quality of life put there to help ALL interpersonal relationships stay on course.
As a child I had a friend named Al. We met in the 4th grade and by the end of high school there were 3 other guys in our clique. Al was the recognized leader. The rest of us did not get together and vote for Al to be our clique leader; Al just assumed the role. He created the authority he had and we let him function that way.
In Eph. 5 and 6 there are 3 interpersonal relationships basic to life covered in detail. Most people IMO are part of all 3 at times. They are husband/wife, parent/child, and employer/employee. In all 3 the one under authority is addressed first followed by the one in authority. Ideally, the one in authority is successful because those under authority let that person be successful. Each side of the equation needs to give the other their space for it to work.
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Edi
Most of the feminine has been taken out of the bible. If a person cares to really research this they will find lots and lots of feminine in the bible. I'm not quite sure why men were so afraid of women down through the ages. Alot of the churches and non-denominational STILL are.
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HAPe4me
I totally do not understand why a woman could not perform the duties of President, nor do I understand those who find it absurd to consider. Let me make it clear, I understand you HAVE those ideas, and you certainly are free to hold them, but I do not understand where they come from.
I doubt I will contribute much on this thread, but I had to come back to this before going to sleep in order to express the following: I find it offensive, (and I am a man), to belittle women's ability to perform their responsibilities due to their monthly cycles or hormonal changes. Perhaps I am odd this way, but sexism and racism, and barriers to sexual or racial equality of opportunity bug the heck out of me. Ok, that said I can go to bed now, I got it off my chest.
I think final decisions in a marriage should be made by the one who is most comfortable, and most confident making them. All decisions that affect both spouses should be considered jointly, with equal weight given to both views. Final decisions should seek to be acceptable to all, even if some compromises need to be made by both. Consensus means that all concerned can give full support to the outcome, since a good consensus decision harms neither party, even if they did not get everything they wanted from the process.
~HAP
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Sushi
From Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet":
On Marriage
Then Almitra spoke again and said, "And what of Marriage, master?"
And he answered saying:
You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.
Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together, yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart, And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.
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likeaneagle
I had his book when I was 19 or so....
During my George Harrison days and the concert of Bangledesh..
I forgot about him..thx, some good wording there.
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ChattyKathy
Sushi,
That was beautiful. Thank you for providing it.
Hap,
It was a woman that brought PMS up I believe and I think it was in part jest. I know I have mentioned that 'm' word in jest myself and had no intention of it belittling us women. However the reality is that we have hormones that at times can rack and ruin our insides but that does not mean we are not capable of civil behavior and making fair and wise decisions.
But it was cool for a man to address it as you did actually.
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T-Bone
Great thread, FreeAtLast - I don't have a problem with women in positions of authority. I think that sometimes friction develops when insecurities fester [on both sides] and the gender issue overshadows any matters at hand. When it comes down to my criteria for choosing a person for a "management" role – I look at the individual – I do recognize our gender plays a part in the way we process info and make decisions – and I think that is a great design by our Creator! If you were to force me to use TWI's male-mindset – then I'll tell you right off the bat – I'd pick Eve over Adam for a leadership position! She only made an error in judgment whereas he made an error in heart. Or to re-phrase my logic in management review board terms: She unknowingly fell victim to a scam – he in full knowledge deliberately violated company policy.
I think so…Tonto and I get along great! I'm an easy going person and not a I've-gotta-be-in-charge type. The TWI years of our marriage were tough – in that I was trying to be someone I was not.
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FreeAtLast
Yeah I am the one who made the pms hormone joke. Well you know how to make a hormone don't you? Don't pay her. da dum. Thank you thank you.
Personally I think if I were running for president then maybe it would be ok to have a woman in the office. :P
Well I would elect someone like Maya Angelou, level headed moral woman, but the women that would consider running are women like our former first lady. I think an evil self serving woman is worse than an evil self serving man because of hormonal issues. Even those in menopause could be driven by hormonal issues, and believe me I have know women going through that stage that would rip your head off for looking at them funny.
So T-Bone what was your opinion on the matter? Thanks for filling in the gaps t-bone.
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ChattyKathy
Excellent point Free!
I must head out now so will be back later on y'all.
T-Bone,
Thank you for addressing that point because it makes sense it would be easier on you men once out of twi's burden of performance.
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likeaneagle
I can almost guarantee, that people have learned a pure way of loving whether by having loving family, or whatever influences that definition to them.. tend never to walk away from it..it may change in color, be viewed in a different spectrum of light..but I know for me I learned a special love..My past experience with the way, and other experience's have flawed me in areas, but I do rest in the assurance that somewhere it is.
Getting back to the head or not.I think the marriage is a seperate institution set up by God for example submiting, but the definitions may very couple to couple as they determine the qualities or strengths that will help that relationship stay close and ride the waves in life...I think a man and women must work thru thier difficulties to ensure each heart is trusted in order to the decisions make certain types of decisions.The man needs respect and a women needs to know she is loved..I understand that...and that is biblical
For me, I like being the woman:) I am not the go getter female who has to climb a ladder to feel successful.Nor do I flaunt clevage for attention...If so she is using her tools to get where she needs to go in the corporate setting... I have seen troubles in marriages where the wife made more money..it caused problems..THe are many variables, I suppose.
I told my daughter's to wait until they were 30 or so to get married....be single, get your education, find your self within and have fun....so far my oldest waited till she was 26, she is married, education done, has gone skydiving, she is a motivator, and is learning to ski, seen Paul's Well, es military, has taken things very seriously, became independant and is taking the time to learn more about marriage..she picked an awesome son in law and husband..and they are building a wonderful understanding of love together..
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ChattyKathy
You're a good mom! :)
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QuietThinker
I have been thinking. I have also been up all night and am working on just a few hours sleep. I will, therefore, make my usual attempts at coherent grammar, but, I make no promises today--so please shout out if I write something requiring clarification.
I think many of us have taken the questions posed and looked at them through a personal filter. I know I have. I've spent some time in consideration of the point "Women's Authority in Society," and while I'm rather a skeptic when it comes to just laying out random statistics, I believe this might be a good point in the discussion to raise the topic of Gender Bias and how it relates to us all.
I have worked, as most people know, as a writer and now am in a more academic setting. I'll start with some definitions and then talk about numbers.
Whether we were conscious of it or not, any women reading this, including myself writing it, have probably faced some amount of gender bias and discrimination when it comes to our professions. The facts bear out that the ratio of median weekly earnings for Full-time wage and salary workers over a vast selection of occupations has not equalized since the 80s and, in fact, is widening in some areas.
I will put out these numbers, published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The current data that has been analyzed is from 2001 you will notice. The data from subsequent years, from what I've read, shows the same trend, but these numbers are easily available and cross-referenced.
Occupation: 2001 % women to men earnings ratio 1983 % W-toM earnings ratio
Financial Managers 70.0 % 63.8%
Physicians 62.8% 81.5%
Securites and financial services/sales 62.9% NA
Marketing/Advertising/PR 64.5% 60.1%
(managers)
Production Coordinators 64.6% 75.7%
Sales supervisors/proprietors 65.7% 61.6%
Supervisors, cleaning and building 67.2% NA
service workers
Designers 67.6% 66.7%
Totals: 76.2% 66.7%
Now, the NA in these numbers reflect data that was Not Available, and there are no estimations made for occupations of 50,000 persons or less, but I still find these numbers to be intriguing.
The truth is, most people may not even be aware that their salary compares in such fashion with peers and colleagues, but, when you consider the economic status of women globally...not even in just this country...the numbers become frightening. I can provide them, so pm me if you're interested, it may not be topical here.
In Throughout the History of Western Culture, Sandra Bem (professor of of psychiatry at Cornell University and multi-published author) writes:
This certainly can give us something to think about when considering that the authority of a woman is like in our culture today. Additionally, Bem and other professionals use the term "Androcentrism" which means Male-centeredness, and is, again quoting Bem, "the historically crude perception that men are inherently superior to women which leads to the more insidious perception that make experience is the natural standard or, norm, and that the female experience is a sex-specific deviation from that norm."
An interesting article concerning Gender Bias in Academic Sciences at MIT has brought to my attention that even in the fields known for rigorous and ruthless adherence to results based on data and replicable results is not immune from the reality of gender bias.
Now, how I approach the understanding of the understanding of this information is personal, and from here to the end, my statements are just that, personal.
I believe that we have, all of us here, grown up and matured in a time of transition between what was once generally accepted as the natural order of things and learned to question that order and make comparisons, adjustments and evaluations based on an ever-widening body of knowledge. To say that there is one order that is right is a difficult statement. If one bases this understanding of what is right only on one book or several, I pose the question, "Well, who wrote that book and why? What was that author's cultural context, and does that cultural context apply today in the same way?" We all must adopt a standard of some kind, I acknowledge that freely. Here I am simply suggesting that to do so without applying critical thought may be detrimental. Even as scientists, we have a very difficult time applying that standard of natural order, which is why there have been entirely new classification headings added to taxonomy even in the time since I left University the first time and my recent return to academia.
I do not suggest that it is right or wrong for an individual to make a choice about what his or her individual role in society is based on the systems of belief that are dear to them. I do suggest that it is wrong to simply dismiss out of hand the ideas and beliefs of others simply because it doesn't fit into a person's specific personal lexicon.
All that to say...while some may believe that my place in society is pre-determined by my gender, I don't have to accept his or her belief as truth. Performance and results speak loudly to me. If I can perform the job as well or even better than my male counterpart, then I insist that my right to equal or greater compensation based on performance is valid.
How then does this affect my view on personal relationships? I can only speak to what I know. I have a person in my life to whom I am deeply attached. Part of the attraction for me is his demand that I not only be myself but accept my abilities as they are and not apologize for them. He stretches my mind in ways that are painful and speaks simple truths. He never flatters me or worse yet, patronizes me, he simply expects me to return to him the same stark honesty on equal terms. He is a simple man. He is just himself. That suits me, since I'm just me. We exist in our own spaces and manage our own, individual lives and seem to rub along fairly well. And, if, at night, when we snuggle down into the pillows, then we leave most of our cultural concerns at the bedroom door and what passes between us as conversation falls into the realm of private, secret language between lovers. And, if I bend my forehead to touch his shoulder, it is not because I've been told that is the natural order of things...it is because I trust him to handle those parts of me that are precious to myself with love and great care. If, in some ways he takes care of me it is not because I am incapable of doing it myself, or in need of care-taking, but because I choose to allow it. To me, that's an expression of my own authority--to transfer that authority to someone else when the time is right, and to pick it back up when it's time again.
Oh, and Excie...yeah...it's all about love.
Yours respectfully and thoughtfully and with apologies for length of post,
~QT
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ChattyKathy
Even when I try to be clear I can't match you doing it when fatigued.
I love the personal lexicon example.
Your description of behind closed doors is simply wonderful.
Other things I need to think about because you provided so much here.
Thank you!
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RainbowsGirl
This has been a great Post and I am so happy that some of the guys posted to it....it says volumes about them.
I am partial to the prince charming lover type too...excathedra as long as he agrees to transfer of authority theory!
There is nothing that I know of to add it have been well covered by all my brilliant sisters and brothers. Everyone added so much quality of knowledge experience and depth of Heart; which leaves me a lot to think about.
My personal opinion is that we tranfer authority a lot these days. Based on qualifications and love and respect for one another and I think that is what God is saying in Ephesians about the man and women relationship as a whole. The wisest thing is to yield to the person with the most qualified credentials as long as they have a huge heart of love to temper all their decisions
I would vote for anyone of the Brilliant women here at GSC (or men); as I am absolutely sure that any of you are more than over-qualified, honest and trustworthy! That would probably be politically incorrect..... but perfect!
Love You All, RG
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FreeAtLast
great posts guys. I don't have time to respond to everything but wow! QT and Like an eagle. Great posts. I don't even know where to start to respond to those or maybe I should just do what Kathy did.
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ChattyKathy
RainbowsGirl,
You add loads so don't you dare cut yourself short okeedokee! I speak from experience in that because I am famous for cutting me down.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I've noticed in IT which is where my physical office is located that there are more men and it seems so other places as well. I have attributed it to how our brains work. And have heard things about the male brain being more mathematical whereas the female brain more expressive/planning and detail minded. Although the mechanics of math would include detail minded so that can't be a generalization in my limited understanding.
These things have to make up why we go after certain things in life like employment, ways of release in play or sports and even who we are drawn to in ways of love.
When the women's movement first started I was a teenager raised in a home where I never even considered not becoming a wife that took care of the house, children, made sure there was dinner on the table every night and things of that nature which never left me even to this day. Then my mother began to work outside the home and my views expanded some with hers, still she maintained the role she had been raised with of caring for all the home details and so I again retained them thinking women must be able to do it all.
One of my jobs in the mid 70's was doing a job that I shared with a male. We each took turns taking the hard drives off (big ole things) and replacing them and doing back ups and that sort of thing in the computer center for Sears. For some reason a rule was broken that never should have been and I became aware he was making $1.50 more an hour than I was for the exact same responsibilities and I was ticked. I went to our boss and asked why that was and he replied because he is a male. That didn't satisfy me and I pushed how did that justify the difference and he told me that a male is considered the head of the household and they have to earn more. I left and went home and kicked the trash can.
I think all these things are similar for all of us older than 30 and I for one am thankful there is more equality now than then and feel that is a good thing. But I suspect there are miles to go to get where some women and men are pleased with it.
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QuietThinker
Hey, Rainbow'sGirl, I'm in total agreement with Kathy, here. You've wonderful insight and information to share. You have a lovely, open and generous heart. Likewise, LikeAnEagle, Kathy, and FreeAtLast--I learn so much from your additions to all the threads I read here.
I am thinking about your last post, Kathy, and I, too, am pleased that there is more equality and that we are learning to view our society from more than one perspective.
I would suggest that even this very thread speaks to the advance of thought. I have not noticed any of the men who've posted here speak with that other than respect and interest to the topic. No one has said, "Y'all girls just go on and have your little talk now." Patted us on our collective heads and sent us on our way. The nature of communication in forums is to share and exchange ideas and explore differences. This thread has proven to be interesting, informative, and I think we've all shown good manners.
Thanks to all who've shared what they think and feel about this. I do appreciate everything I've read!
~QT
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ChattyKathy
I am heading out now but I agree about the men here and think we have some of the best amongst us. :)
And love to fight with them in 'tacks.
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