And sometimes I think God keeps repeating the same thing in hopes that sometime, someone will "get it." and act on it. I honestly believe, and I admit I could be wrong, that the content and accuracy of the manifistations is often dependant on us. IF we do what we are supposed to do they change. If make them up, they may change but do us no real good. At least no more than we would get quoting the word to each other.
Well, that may be true, but I can't say that I ever saw what I would consider the real deal. I also don't see any Biblical backing to this idea of repeating untill we get it or of accuracy being dependent on us. But that's just me.
Shortfuse, I know what your saying about looking for signs. There was a thread on here a while back I believe, on people who had "long suits" in believing to get the good parking spots. Yes, God has saved your lazy butt the spot closest to the door so you don't have to walk 30 feet further.
I saw the prophecy LCM gave over RFR during her ceremony into the trustees/directors. He prophesied she would "heal this ministry".
Prophecy? or an act?
I remember that too. At the time I was thinking, "Heal the ministry? Why do we need to heal the ministry?" Clearly Craig knew the kind of hurt that was coming to everyone who had put so much trust in him. Looking back I think it was planned. They went so far as to publish the prophecy in The Way Magazine to underscore the importance of it.
Well, that may be true, but I can't say that I ever saw what I would consider the real deal. I also don't see any Biblical backing to this idea of repeating untill we get it or of accuracy being dependent on us. But that's just me.
No problem with the last part of this statment - I said "sometimes I think..." so it's just my opinion as well. By the accuracy being dependent on us, we either are producing the "real deal" or we are making it up, if we are making it up or choosing to repeat the same things over and over...it's not accurate.
I'm sorry if the first part is true in your life. I can't say that for mine, though I have seen people fake it and I'm sure that I have been guilty of letting myself fall into simply repeating the same things over and over again at times. I hope that someday you will see what you would consider the "real deal."
By the accuracy being dependent on us, we either are producing the "real deal" or we are making it up, if we are making it up or choosing to repeat the same things over and over...it's not accurate.
The only thing I see we can 'produce" is fruit of the spirit. Not manifestations.. That's God's job!
You would think that if God was truly inspiring people in a specific setting to say something specific to inspire this perticular group of people that the God who created the heavens and the earth could communicate something that would knock the socks off of everyone in that room. Instead, we heard the same thing over and over again except maybe in a different order and usually lining up with the most recent teaching series....which was also something that had been taught repeatedly over the years.
I must admit that I also noticed quite a bit of this repeating business even in Corps meetings. I still hold that not everyone is given the gift of tongues.
I Corinthians 12:28-30
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Clearly all do not have the gift and even less have both gifts of tongues and interpretation.
Regarding Interpretation of Tongues and Prophecy, I have to admit that while there were definitely lots of repetitive uninspiring messages, there where other times where the relevance of the words was uncanny. It was those times where it was so timely and relevant the lent credibility to the premise that these were messages inspired of God.
Regarding the other manifestations, one thing I have observed is a superstitious attitude among wayfers. So eager for signs, miracles, and wonders and receiving revelation from God, they look for these things in the random coincidences of daily life. "I know it was God working in me to do such and such, because look how well it turned out." "It was really 'of God' that I got to the store when I did - just in time to get that last jar of mayo." Maybe these are dumb examples, but you probably know what I mean. Seeking after signs, you will find them everywhere.
Shortfuse---------I know what you mean about "the last jar of mayo" kind of thing. My experience was quite different so I will try to recount it as best I can 35 years after the fact.
I spoke in tongues very shortly after being witnessed to. No one led me in . Then I manifested in a believers' meeting just because the meeting leader said "someone bring forth-------" (That drew some memorable looks on unsuspecting faces.) I told my twig leader and he instructed me in how to do a "lift list". I knew very little about the organization and even less about VPW. I had seen his photo in The Way Mag and that is what I tried to visualize for my lift list.(This was my first time doing a lift list thing.) Instead, I saw an image of him wearing that silly neck scarf that I later found out he liked to wear. He had a menacing smirk on his face and he was -----well------flipping me the bird.He was uttering a well known phrase that starts with" f "and ends with "you". It was very vivid and not based on any previous experience or knowledge. This exact experience never happened again but I can still see that image in my memory like it was yesterday. I felt at the time that it was a sign that something was very wrong with what I had become involved in. I talked to my twig leader about it and he said I should chalk it up to unrenewed mind. This was a concept to which I was extremely new also, but he seemed to know what he was talking about so I put it on the back burner( but it resurfaced from time to time, not the image, just a recollection of having had the experience.) I've had similar types of experiences through the years but nothing ever even came close to the intensity of that one. It was like opening your front door to leave for work, still half asleep, and being confronted, face to face by a snarling gorilla. I know that is probably not a very good depiction of what happened but it's the best I can do.
The people in the bible manifested or spoke in tongues, had the spirit to over flowing just upon hearing the gospel taught to them. We had to sit through a three week class, four days a week to have it drummed into our heads that this is what happens and it is going to happen to us cause no one gets missed, doncha know.
It was mechanical and it was forced. You move your lips your throat your tongue. You form the words, you do the speaking. Exactly, it was me me me or you you you doing it all along. If we were going to be overflowing, it would have just happened.
Then how muchmore mechanical did a suppose supernatural gift become when it was put under a light and tested by how many breaks aka breaths we took during the tongue matched the breaks or breaths taken in the intepretation? Languages are different yet it was measure in that if your tongue was yay long so should your interpretation be yay long minus or add a word or two? No language matches up to the English language like that. So here we have a supernatural phenomenon, supposedly, being pulled apart under a physical linguistic magnifying glass that isn't even being used correctly.
What a piece of donkey dust.....fake and made up and carried out by the power of suggestion. Nothing more and nothing less, well okay maybe less.
I quit speaking in tongues pretty much after I left TWI. This was after I had spoken about this subject with Cynthia Kisser,Director of the now defunct Cult Awareness Network (before Scientology sued it out of existence). At best I saw it and understood it then to be my own inner thought police. It was that for a couple of reasons. I used to to stop thoughts I did not want to have. Speak in tongues instead. It stopped feelings I did not want to have, so I spoke in tongues instead. So it shut down what ever I had going on via self hypnosis, it was a form of meditation. Oh yes, it worked in calming me down, but then meditation will do that. So will repeating the same scripture over and over again. So will saying the complete rosary. It is NOT that the scripture or the loshanta or rosary is magical or spiritual, it is the ACT of self hypnosis and meditation by using those functions that calms the nerves.
I resented finding out that doing the scripture retemories and speaking in tongues was nothing more than me having my own inner thought police when I thought I was doing something spiritual. Some may argue that there is nothing wrong with doing either and that I could be doing worse things. To me, being fooled or duped into thinking I am doing "The Word" when I really shutting myself down, shutting down my own critical thinking processes in the name of spirituality is a slap in the face. I resent that.
I would miss speaking in tongues when I first stopped. Hey it was an ingrained habit I fell back on in times of stress. But I also missed biting my nails too when I gave that up and now I don't miss either.
It was mechanical and it was forced. You move your lips your throat your tongue. You form the words, you do the speaking. Exactly, it was me me me or you you you doing it all along. If we were going to be overflowing, it would have just happened.
Self hypnosis...hmmm...hadn't thought of that. Thanks! I always appreciate something new to think on.
"LaShanda, Malakasita, get y'all narrow butts over here!"
Having lived in Baltimore for quite a while, I can say that clearly there were some people naming their kids this way."
I was taught at the gulag that the quality of your prophecy depends on how much you SIT and study the Word (Kevlar's emphasis). My issue is that I am not inspired or comforted by manifestations. I receive nothing. I noone receive, what good is giving. I didn't see them as instructions or report backs on progress.
I would think it's either genuine prophecy - or it's not. As such, what's said are God's words and are not subject to quality assurance/quality control by a human agency.
Of course, if it's not genuine, you can critique it all you like. Or ignore it altogether.
But that's the Way for you - the quality and weight of your prophecy is dependent on how smart you are, how well spoken you are, how "mature in the Word" you are, how "like-minded" you are, how much you salaam the "ministry that taught us the Word".
Okay I don't think it's all bogus, and I do believe everyone has the basic capabilites of doing it. People tell me all the time that dogs can swim. Well. Actually, NO. They have the capabilitiy to swim, just like humans do. But they don't all take to water like fish. It took Nico a year to learn. Watching other dogs.
Oakspear, I love ya, but I disagree that people cannot become more fluent in tounges. I believe God operates in the spiritual realm the same way he operates in the 5 sense realm. Practicing anything would make you better. A genius musical talent (Elton John comes to my pop music mind) still may be tagged as gifted from an early age. But he still would have to take lessons and practice to become good at what he does.
I think the Wayfers (and perhaps other groups) problem is that this is what they hold so dear too, as proof that "God is working through them) that the whole dam purpose becomes not only meaningless, but just plain BAD. People go there, and they are like, wow, if I don't do this, I'm not going to be a part of this group. I'm not spiritual enough. So like me, they end up feeling like failiures, when in reality this is the LAST thing on God's mind that He knows I need to concern myself with!
Whoa! More on this subject later. My fingers are tired of typing.
What's ironic, well at least for when I was in, it was all about grace and not works. NO works.
Yet TWI is the biggest 'works' oganization I know of. Study, study, study the way mag, study the sunday night tapes, study the collaterals, go to twig, drive a gazillion miles to be at a meeting, do this do that, organize this, show it to someone.
And it is the same with their manifestations. It is and was always dependent on the person themselves and never the free flowing grace and spirit of god. It was up to you to work it, it was up to you to study, sit in your private life, to be faithful, to know the word so that *YOU* by your works could manifest better. It was a carrot dangling in front of your nose where you would work harder and harder to reach it and never satisfied.
For cripes sake, the book we all said we believed in had God speaking through a jack foot with no problems. Did the jack foot need to move his throat his tongue and study so that God could speak through him?
Works and works and more works.
If God wanted to speak through us or inspire something he would and without any help from any of us.
It was bogus. A supposed spiritual outpouring ruled and regulated because they knew it wasn't God doing it and they had to ensure that no one went off half cocked without rules and regulations for the suggestion of manifesting that they implanted in our minds.
Great points FC! I also just want to add I have seen the manifistations done better. I hesitate to add this because it was at a CES camp back in 2000. Schoenheit just let people pray the way they wanted to. If you felt inspired to SIT or just pray your own way, that was fine. He just set the setting, and waited and waited and let people go forth as they wanted. It was better then being called on by someone else who believes God is telling them who to call on. Yeah right.
Lately twi doesn't call on people to SIT, they ask for a volunteer. Usually there is one or two who jump to the occasion. Afterwords the leader wil usually point out that the readiness to SIT or Prophecy is a sign of quality in that person's life.
What about the other manifestations? I've seen on TV ministers like Joel Osteen, talking about the still small voice and other things that he say are God working in or talking to you. Obviously forms of revelation. (He's so clear in his teaching too.) At twi, it was demanded that I receive revelation. What about revelation, gifts of healings, etc? Can anyone testify to these in action?
Lately twi doesn't call on people to SIT, they ask for a volunteer. Usually there is one or two who jump to the occasion. Afterwords the leader wil usually point out that the readiness to SIT or Prophecy is a sign of quality in that person's life.
I always felt this was a little uncomfortable. Either there were a number of people jumping over eachother, competing to start first (with the loudest one usually winning), or there was an awkward silence with someone eventually starting becuase SOMEONE had to do it. I even remember being told that it was good to jump in there loudly...it showed boldness, blah blah blah. They were incouraging the competition so people could prove how spiritually mature they were. They were just more obnoxious! I'm a quite person and I speak dilliberately. So obviously I'm not very spiritual;)
The other thing that comes to mind is that the leader of the meeting supposedly had God working in them to choose who to call on, whether this be during the meeting or before hand while planning for it.
Apparently, they have come to the realization that this isn't happening.
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lindyhopper
Well, that may be true, but I can't say that I ever saw what I would consider the real deal. I also don't see any Biblical backing to this idea of repeating untill we get it or of accuracy being dependent on us. But that's just me.
Shortfuse, I know what your saying about looking for signs. There was a thread on here a while back I believe, on people who had "long suits" in believing to get the good parking spots.
Yes, God has saved your lazy butt the spot closest to the door so you don't have to walk 30 feet further.
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shortfuse
I remember that too. At the time I was thinking, "Heal the ministry? Why do we need to heal the ministry?" Clearly Craig knew the kind of hurt that was coming to everyone who had put so much trust in him. Looking back I think it was planned. They went so far as to publish the prophecy in The Way Magazine to underscore the importance of it.
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Keith
No problem with the last part of this statment - I said "sometimes I think..." so it's just my opinion as well. By the accuracy being dependent on us, we either are producing the "real deal" or we are making it up, if we are making it up or choosing to repeat the same things over and over...it's not accurate.
I'm sorry if the first part is true in your life. I can't say that for mine, though I have seen people fake it and I'm sure that I have been guilty of letting myself fall into simply repeating the same things over and over again at times. I hope that someday you will see what you would consider the "real deal."
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TrustAndObey
The only thing I see we can 'produce" is fruit of the spirit. Not manifestations.. That's God's job!
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Keith
Agreed as you appear to be defining "produce". But I think you know what I meant.
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excathedra
like..... how boring can god be ?????
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Eyesopen
I must admit that I also noticed quite a bit of this repeating business even in Corps meetings. I still hold that not everyone is given the gift of tongues.
I Corinthians 12:28-30
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Clearly all do not have the gift and even less have both gifts of tongues and interpretation.
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waysider
Shortfuse---------I know what you mean about "the last jar of mayo" kind of thing. My experience was quite different so I will try to recount it as best I can 35 years after the fact.
I spoke in tongues very shortly after being witnessed to. No one led me in . Then I manifested in a believers' meeting just because the meeting leader said "someone bring forth-------" (That drew some memorable looks on unsuspecting faces.) I told my twig leader and he instructed me in how to do a "lift list". I knew very little about the organization and even less about VPW. I had seen his photo in The Way Mag and that is what I tried to visualize for my lift list.(This was my first time doing a lift list thing.) Instead, I saw an image of him wearing that silly neck scarf that I later found out he liked to wear. He had a menacing smirk on his face and he was -----well------flipping me the bird.He was uttering a well known phrase that starts with" f "and ends with "you". It was very vivid and not based on any previous experience or knowledge. This exact experience never happened again but I can still see that image in my memory like it was yesterday. I felt at the time that it was a sign that something was very wrong with what I had become involved in. I talked to my twig leader about it and he said I should chalk it up to unrenewed mind. This was a concept to which I was extremely new also, but he seemed to know what he was talking about so I put it on the back burner( but it resurfaced from time to time, not the image, just a recollection of having had the experience.) I've had similar types of experiences through the years but nothing ever even came close to the intensity of that one. It was like opening your front door to leave for work, still half asleep, and being confronted, face to face by a snarling gorilla. I know that is probably not a very good depiction of what happened but it's the best I can do.
Waysider
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FullCircle
Ah it was all bogus.
The people in the bible manifested or spoke in tongues, had the spirit to over flowing just upon hearing the gospel taught to them. We had to sit through a three week class, four days a week to have it drummed into our heads that this is what happens and it is going to happen to us cause no one gets missed, doncha know.
It was mechanical and it was forced. You move your lips your throat your tongue. You form the words, you do the speaking. Exactly, it was me me me or you you you doing it all along. If we were going to be overflowing, it would have just happened.
Then how muchmore mechanical did a suppose supernatural gift become when it was put under a light and tested by how many breaks aka breaths we took during the tongue matched the breaks or breaths taken in the intepretation? Languages are different yet it was measure in that if your tongue was yay long so should your interpretation be yay long minus or add a word or two? No language matches up to the English language like that. So here we have a supernatural phenomenon, supposedly, being pulled apart under a physical linguistic magnifying glass that isn't even being used correctly.
What a piece of donkey dust.....fake and made up and carried out by the power of suggestion. Nothing more and nothing less, well okay maybe less.
I quit speaking in tongues pretty much after I left TWI. This was after I had spoken about this subject with Cynthia Kisser,Director of the now defunct Cult Awareness Network (before Scientology sued it out of existence). At best I saw it and understood it then to be my own inner thought police. It was that for a couple of reasons. I used to to stop thoughts I did not want to have. Speak in tongues instead. It stopped feelings I did not want to have, so I spoke in tongues instead. So it shut down what ever I had going on via self hypnosis, it was a form of meditation. Oh yes, it worked in calming me down, but then meditation will do that. So will repeating the same scripture over and over again. So will saying the complete rosary. It is NOT that the scripture or the loshanta or rosary is magical or spiritual, it is the ACT of self hypnosis and meditation by using those functions that calms the nerves.
I resented finding out that doing the scripture retemories and speaking in tongues was nothing more than me having my own inner thought police when I thought I was doing something spiritual. Some may argue that there is nothing wrong with doing either and that I could be doing worse things. To me, being fooled or duped into thinking I am doing "The Word" when I really shutting myself down, shutting down my own critical thinking processes in the name of spirituality is a slap in the face. I resent that.
I would miss speaking in tongues when I first stopped. Hey it was an ingrained habit I fell back on in times of stress. But I also missed biting my nails too when I gave that up and now I don't miss either.
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Kevlar2000
:lol:
:lol:
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Eyesopen
Self hypnosis...hmmm...hadn't thought of that. Thanks! I always appreciate something new to think on.
"LaShanda, Malakasita, get y'all narrow butts over here!"
Having lived in Baltimore for quite a while, I can say that clearly there were some people naming their kids this way."
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Kevlar2000
I would think it's either genuine prophecy - or it's not. As such, what's said are God's words and are not subject to quality assurance/quality control by a human agency.
Of course, if it's not genuine, you can critique it all you like. Or ignore it altogether.
But that's the Way for you - the quality and weight of your prophecy is dependent on how smart you are, how well spoken you are, how "mature in the Word" you are, how "like-minded" you are, how much you salaam the "ministry that taught us the Word".
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Nena
Like exactly!!!!
I rest my case!!!!!
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vickles
I agree totally!!!
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Bolshevik
"power of suggestion"
I like it.
(the phrase I mean)
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RottieGrrrl
Okay I don't think it's all bogus, and I do believe everyone has the basic capabilites of doing it. People tell me all the time that dogs can swim. Well. Actually, NO. They have the capabilitiy to swim, just like humans do. But they don't all take to water like fish. It took Nico a year to learn. Watching other dogs.
Oakspear, I love ya, but I disagree that people cannot become more fluent in tounges. I believe God operates in the spiritual realm the same way he operates in the 5 sense realm. Practicing anything would make you better. A genius musical talent (Elton John comes to my pop music mind) still may be tagged as gifted from an early age. But he still would have to take lessons and practice to become good at what he does.
I think the Wayfers (and perhaps other groups) problem is that this is what they hold so dear too, as proof that "God is working through them) that the whole dam purpose becomes not only meaningless, but just plain BAD. People go there, and they are like, wow, if I don't do this, I'm not going to be a part of this group. I'm not spiritual enough. So like me, they end up feeling like failiures, when in reality this is the LAST thing on God's mind that He knows I need to concern myself with!
Whoa! More on this subject later. My fingers are tired of typing.
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excathedra
i missed this one ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
maybe he meant to say heel the big head
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Bolshevik
The big head is the ministry and the ministry is the big head.
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excathedra
point well taken
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FullCircle
What's ironic, well at least for when I was in, it was all about grace and not works. NO works.
Yet TWI is the biggest 'works' oganization I know of. Study, study, study the way mag, study the sunday night tapes, study the collaterals, go to twig, drive a gazillion miles to be at a meeting, do this do that, organize this, show it to someone.
And it is the same with their manifestations. It is and was always dependent on the person themselves and never the free flowing grace and spirit of god. It was up to you to work it, it was up to you to study, sit in your private life, to be faithful, to know the word so that *YOU* by your works could manifest better. It was a carrot dangling in front of your nose where you would work harder and harder to reach it and never satisfied.
For cripes sake, the book we all said we believed in had God speaking through a jack foot with no problems. Did the jack foot need to move his throat his tongue and study so that God could speak through him?
Works and works and more works.
If God wanted to speak through us or inspire something he would and without any help from any of us.
It was bogus. A supposed spiritual outpouring ruled and regulated because they knew it wasn't God doing it and they had to ensure that no one went off half cocked without rules and regulations for the suggestion of manifesting that they implanted in our minds.
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RottieGrrrl
Great points FC! I also just want to add I have seen the manifistations done better. I hesitate to add this because it was at a CES camp back in 2000. Schoenheit just let people pray the way they wanted to. If you felt inspired to SIT or just pray your own way, that was fine. He just set the setting, and waited and waited and let people go forth as they wanted. It was better then being called on by someone else who believes God is telling them who to call on. Yeah right.
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Bolshevik
Lately twi doesn't call on people to SIT, they ask for a volunteer. Usually there is one or two who jump to the occasion. Afterwords the leader wil usually point out that the readiness to SIT or Prophecy is a sign of quality in that person's life.
What about the other manifestations? I've seen on TV ministers like Joel Osteen, talking about the still small voice and other things that he say are God working in or talking to you. Obviously forms of revelation. (He's so clear in his teaching too.) At twi, it was demanded that I receive revelation. What about revelation, gifts of healings, etc? Can anyone testify to these in action?
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lindyhopper
I always felt this was a little uncomfortable. Either there were a number of people jumping over eachother, competing to start first (with the loudest one usually winning), or there was an awkward silence with someone eventually starting becuase SOMEONE had to do it. I even remember being told that it was good to jump in there loudly...it showed boldness, blah blah blah. They were incouraging the competition so people could prove how spiritually mature they were. They were just more obnoxious! I'm a quite person and I speak dilliberately. So obviously I'm not very spiritual;)
The other thing that comes to mind is that the leader of the meeting supposedly had God working in them to choose who to call on, whether this be during the meeting or before hand while planning for it.
Apparently, they have come to the realization that this isn't happening.
Nooooo, really?
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another spot
Similarly, there was prayer.
1. We pretty much ignored “The Lord’s Prayer” because it wasn’t written TO us
and wasn’t “accurate” to this administration. Christ tells us how to pray and we ignore it???
Yet, it’s a pretty great prayer if you study it and gives God much more respect than I typically
heard or said myself in TWI.
2. “The Word of God is the Will of God”: I remember VP denigrating denominations
because of being wishy-washy about God’s will in their prayer life. That supposes we had
a better handle on the will of God than others, therefore can pray better. I doubt it.
It also supposes it is important to define the will of God in prayer. I doubt that too.
3. Another performance thing that made me nervous sometimes.
Pretty funny VP said not to put God in a box. We did. Everything was in a box, by virtue
of following his instruction. Choked the life out of everything.
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