A big LOSHUNTA to you Bolshevik. When I was amongst corps it was always fresh and new and exciting. outside of the corps household it was loshunta ,loshunta lodanga, I the Lord you God am....., And I was bored to tears. I kept thinking how I could help people get out of those phony things but after years gave up. The Intermediate class with the excellors sessions couldn't do it so TWI had nothing further to offer (except for The Forehead standing up and ranting viciously at anyone and everyone. I sometimes thought his ranting was prophecy - from whom I will never know, but it was hard to figure that anyone could get that ....ed off all the time and not have something telling him what to say.
The groups I was with afterwards sometimes used the manifestations and sometimes did not. I missed the real genuine that I was a part of in the corps. I have not heard them in around ten years but would like too
Howdy, Bolshevik and welcome to GSC…I'm with you on the holy boredom thing. Looking back on my TWI experience I'd have to say I doubt that the stuff I saw and heard was genuine. Like a lot of things I learned through TWI – I have devoted much personal study on the utterance manifestations – and believe they were geared to filling a need at a specific time in the church's early years – but that's just my opinion. I do not find clear-cut scriptural evidence to indicate that it is mandated for Christians now. And I certainly disagree with VPW's teaching that manifestations were distributed according to the will of the believer – which contradicts I Corinthians 12:11 saying the Spirit determines the recipients.
I posted some excerpts from a theology book on the Letter from John Lynn thread post # 635 – which I will post again here – I thought it presented a somewhat balanced view on the topic. The following excerpts are from Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson, 1985, Baker Books, pages 878-881:
"…On the other side of the argument are those who reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is still dispensing the charismatic gifts. They argue that historically the miraculous gifts ceased; they were virtually unknown throughout most of the history of the church. When they were present, it was generally in isolated groups characterized by unorthodox beliefs on a number of major doctrines…
…Some theologians would argue for the passing of the miraculous gifts on the basis of Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation…was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will." The thrust of this argument is that the purpose of the miraculous gifts was to attest to and thus authenticate the revelation and the incarnation. When that purpose had been fulfilled, the miracles being unnecessary, they simply faded away. [page 878]
…In my judgment it is not possible to determine with any certainty whether the contemporary charismatic phenomena are indeed gifts of the Holy Spirit. There simply is no biblical evidence indicating the time of fulfillment of the prediction that tongues will cease. It is questionable at best to conclude on the basis of the difference between the verbs in I Corinthians 13:8 that tongues will cease at one time, and prophecy and knowledge at another. Nor is the historical evidence clear and conclusive. The situation here is somewhat like the situation with respect to the doctrine of apostolic succession. There is a great deal of evidence on both sides. Each group is able to cite an impressive amount of data which are to its advantage, bypassing the data presented by the other group. This lack of historical conclusiveness is not a problem, however. For even if history proved that the gift of tongues has ceased, there is nothing to prevent God from reestablishing it. On the other hand, historical proof that the gift has been present through the various eras of the church would not validate the present phenomena…
…In the final analysis, whether the Bible teaches that the Spirit dispenses special gifts today is not an issue of great practical consequence. For even if he does, we are not to set our lives to seeking them. He bestows them sovereignly; he alone determines the recipients . If he chooses to give us a special gift, he will do so regardless of whether we expect it or seek it. What we are commanded to do [Ephesians 5:18] is to be filled with the Holy Spirit [a present imperative, suggesting ongoing action].This is not so much a matter of our getting more of the Holy Spirit; presumably all of us possess the Spirit in his entirety. It is rather, a matter of his possessing more of our lives…" [pages 880, 881]
End of excerpts
I especially liked the last paragraph – because the author acknowledges the sovereignty of God. He is in charge. It is His prerogative if He wishes to bestow a gift to someone.
Talk about boredom! Imagine having a believers' meeting 3 times a day, 7 days a week for 3 years straight.(bare minimum). To add to the tedium, we were taught that the "mannies" were never to address a specific situation but were to be general in nature.(kinda like a horoscope,huh?) Can you imagine if the manifestations actually DID address current issues? "Yea, mah peeps, get off thy tushies and and go get jobs If thou shalt do so, surely wealth shall befall thee(after thine ABS be laid at the feet of the Holy Ones.)"
I still believe in divine inspiration(revelation) because I think I've seen it in my own life. I don't, however, believe that our speaking in tongues or operating believers' meetings has any bearing on whether or not God decides to reveal something to you nor do I think it has any effect on our ability to receive.
I remember a particular instance when I had a very vivid thought(like an image you might see in a daydream) and it took me totally unawares. I was very new to TWI at that time(probably about 1 or 2 weeks after I was witnessed to) I don't think I even spoke in tongues yet at that point. I did not fully understand what it meant and even felt guity about it for years to come because it involved taking action which I did not take but should have. I posted on it in one of my early posts. When I came to GSC and saw some of the escapades of TWI that I was unaware of, I thought to myself,"Holy crap! so THAT'S what that was all about!" I'm sure others have similar anecdotes they could relate.
But,yeah, real or not, I don't think TWI had any special insight on the proper way to operate or understand the manifestations. It (their version of it) was really just a formalized type of ritual annointed by the "holy" powers at TWI
...we were taught that the "mannies" were never to address a specific situation but were to be general in nature.
...I don't think TWI had any special insight on the proper way to operate or understand the manifestations. It (their version of it) was really just a formalized type of ritual annointed by the "holy" powers at TWI.
I always had a vague unease about how Way leaders could define what kind of message was "brought forth" from interpretation of tongues and prophecy; kinda like stepping on God's toes. God knows what message He wants to deliver. What's next - telling you what your tongue has to sound like? We were constantly told we had to "develop" our tongue - Isn't what comes out of your mouth God's prerogative?
"Well, Kevlar, you didn't have enough "LoShantas" in your tongue - are you sure you don't have a counterfeit? And what was that about "Mala alakazam oh meet me at the tiki bar"? :lol:
Maybe it's just me, but for those of you who heard Mr. Wierwille's tongue, did it sound to you like he was saying the same words over and over and over?
I'll be honest enough to say that most anytime the "utterance' manifestations were done by me, I was more "moved by" or should I say "required by" TWI than I was "moved by the spirit".. Peer pressure most of the time, pure and simple..
Sure I wanted to do God's will, and I'm sure there were times when God's spirit was energized within me to speak a word of prophecy, but that was not the norm.
And I definitely do not hold to TWI's understanding of them. I think it was another instance of men trying to make more out of God's Word and bending the flagpole too far the other way.. No doubt we see God's spirit has been manifested since the beginning of ages and the Old Covenant given to Abraham and Moses. So I have no doubt it can or at times is manifested today. However, 'I' don't think it is 'MY" spirit that "I' can do with as "I" choose and have it manifest itself anytime 'I' desire and I have yet to find scripture to say otherwise, but rather it is God's spirit that 'HE" has placed in us. As it is written, "That no man speaking by God's spirit can call Jesus accursed'. There is nowhere in scripture where it says there are 9, and 9 alone. It just happens to list 9 different ways the spirit has been manifested itself in Corinthians, does that mean that's the only way God's spirit manifests itself? I think it's man's wisdom to say so, and also places God and the spirit he places in is in a man made box. Sure it is a gift and a down payment of the fullness of the spirit that is to come, but why else would it be written, "Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you HIS holy spirit." It is still HIS given to us for a down payment for our benefit until the fullness comes! Just as the earth is still the Lord's but he has given it to us for our benefit.
Oh well, maybe it should be another doctrinal section thread...
I'll be honest enough to say that most anytime the "utterance' manifestations were done by me, I was more "moved by" or should I say "required by" TWI than I was "moved by the spirit".. Peer pressure most of the time, pure and simple..
I can't say I have thought about it quite like that before, but how true. Having grown up in TWI I saw a lot of young people SIT for the first time, whether at the end of session 12 or in a different setting. I can't tell you how many times I saw young teens break down in tears, and not tears of joy, from the fustration and the pressure to SIT. They thought they couldn't do it, but after the pressure from the class teacher and whoever was undersheparding them and who.ever else and many attempts they finally did it while in tears. The language was always surprisingly similar to SITing in the fellowship or to VPW's...along the "shanta" variety.
I've voice my problems and doubt of SIT before so I won't do it yet again. I will agree though that in the areas that I have been in , they difinitely practiced the manifestations of holy boredom.
Holy cr*p don't call on me...what am I going to make up this time??? Faked it for 12 years...and guess what...they told me I had a "long suit" in interpretation and prophecy :huh:
In more than a few traditions, speaking in tongues is an ecstatic utterance that indicates...ecstasy. The words, or sounds, themselves often have no significance other than an as emotional outlet for the speaker. Not surprising that Christians would do this as well. Throwing in the expectation of interpreting the sounds is where the pressure and fakery comes in.
I've heard several people in pagan traditions, including some native American sects, make sounds that are indistinguishable from what I heard as speaking in tongues in TWI or in other charismatic or pentecostal groups.
Did someone mention excellor sessions? Even when I was at my most "brainwashed" I thought that practicing a language that God was supposedly supllying the sounds and words for was futile at best. "That you speak is your business, what you speak is God's business" was what Wierwille used to say. If that was so, then how could one become more fluent in a tongue? How could we call on people to start a word or a sentence with a particular letter of the alphabet? And why were some people's tongues the same every time?
I'm with you on that Oakspear.. I think glossalia (toungues and/or speaking) was another way ve in der vay were taught to force God to do what we desire. First it's believing things into fruition, now it's speaking and what you speak even though coerced by man was God's doing...
I have no doubt that the apostles spoke in other languages as the spirit (GOD) gave them utterance... And I have no doubt Paul spoke in other tongues more than the rest.. However, I have high doubts that it was anything similar than what we know today as speaking in tongues where we by our desire force God to do as we please.
Nope, I think God is in control and it is HE who energizes HIS spirit IN us and how that manifests itself is nothing we humans can put in a stupid man-made box.
First - From what I can see - SIT is real and should be done. I think most (not all) of what TWI taught regarding its use in church accurate. I don't say this because of Waybrain (at least I hope not) but from re-working the area myself.
I think some people did fake the interpratations and prophcies, often because they really hadn't tied into God and were under pressure. It was always safe, to say something that came from the Bible. I think some people where trapped into habits, and said the same things over and over again as well.
But something else that I think happened a lot which led to a lot of repeating is that we didn't do what God asked us to do in the manifesitations. Stand on the Word and Believe my word ...OK. However many of us confused standing on the Word with standing on the Ministry. When I have been in an area where people were really acting on what they believed from the Bible (not the a ministry) the content of the manifestations changed drasticly. I can always tell when we are begining to lose focus in our group. When the manifestations start coming out on a regular basis "Stand on my word, speak my word, know that I love you and I desire to help you. I am always with you, and Look unto me." I know that we have stagnated and taken our eyes off of God.
Come to think of it, - that's what happening now - Thanks for the wake up.
And why were some people's tongues the same every time?
Ever notice.......that EVEN wierwille's tongues SOUNDED THE SAME when he demonstrated it to his class of students? Even after a separation of years, when wierwille spoke in tongues, it seemed like he had only two variations of LoShanta Malakasitos.
I read this thread last night and decided to go back and read the section in I Corinthians again. Low and behold but it read the same way it did the first time that I had read it long before ole VP put in his two cents worth of incorrect interpretation.
The gifts (all of them not just the 9 listed) are from God they are His gifts and He decides who gets what and/or how many according to the need of the body. The gifts are for profit to the body of Christ. Therefore they are given to those who can administer and operate them at the time.
I remember VP saying that it was stupid to have one person with Tongues and another with interpretation, because what if one of them doesn't show up for church? How stupid that sounded then and now...why did he always feel the need to limit God? God clearly states that He could give a man several gifts as He (God) desired. VP interpreted that verse as saying that man had the ability to get extra gifts from God because the man wanted them. I don't know about you but my child can ask for a motocross bike all day long but until I believe that he can operate it safely and in the correct places I am not giving that gift to him. It certainly would not benefit the family if he were to wreck the stupid thing or worse hurt someone.
The chapter goes on to use a couple of analogies that emphasize the different jobs of the individual parts of the body and how each one is important and dependent upon all of the others to make one whole and entire body. Those parts that appear feeble or uncomely should not be cast out or critisized. God gives them something extra to make them equal to everyone else so there is no schizm in the body.
I do not see anywhere in the section that states "All 9 all the time". I think that was just another TWI thing to make people feel inferior to others that "were walking in the spirit" doncha know.
As for true manifestations of Tongues, Interpretation or Prophecy. It is obvious from this thread that many "faked" it and I do not doubt the truth of those statements. As I have already demonstrated I do not believe that God gave everyone the gift of tongues. Think about it how does that benefit the body of Christ? Perhaps at the true moment of becoming born again the new believer could have spoken in tongues to "prove" it to themselves (I haven't gotten back into this research yet), but what would be the benefit to the body if every part of the body could all do the same thing? Using God's analogy "if your eye could see, smell, hear, taste, touch, pump blood, walk etc what would everything else do?
First - From what I can see - SIT is real and should be done.
Exactly, how can you "see SIT is real."
As far as I can see, belief in God is purely faith and anything like SIT is an action based on that faith and whether it is real or not is again purely a statement of faith and not of observation.
"LaShanda, Malakasita, get y'all narrow butts over here!"
Having lived in Baltimore for quite a while, I can say that clearly there were some people naming their kids this way.
But something else that I think happened a lot which led to a lot of repeating is that we didn't do what God asked us to do in the manifesitations. Stand on the Word and Believe my word ...OK. However many of us confused standing on the Word with standing on the Ministry.
Yeah, but what is the profit of telling us something in a vague sort of way that is already stated repeatedly in the Bible in many different ways. I mean were we supposed to be more sure of the commandment "turn not to the right hand nor to the left, but stay on the path I have set before you," just because different people kept repeating it over and over again for years? It doesn't add up to me. It wasn't inspiring the first ten times, why would it help to hear it another two hundred times. You would think that if God was truly inspiring people in a specific setting to say something specific to inspire this perticular group of people that the God who created the heavens and the earth could communicate something that would knock the socks off of everyone in that room. Instead, we heard the same thing over and over again except maybe in a different order and usually lining up with the most recent teaching series....which was also something that had been taught repeatedly over the years.
I don't know how many times I've been "called out" for snoozing at ministry functions. Once I was instructed to stand for an entire fellowship while everyone else sat. People used to through things at me in the PWA during the Advanced class when I was sleepy.
That reminds me, does anyone remember when we used to have to stand when we sang in fellowhip? (It was supposesd to help us practice following the leader or something)
Regarding Interpretation of Tongues and Prophecy, I have to admit that while there were definitely lots of repetitive uninspiring messages, there where other times where the relevance of the words was uncanny. It was those times where it was so timely and relevant the lent credibility to the premise that these were messages inspired of God.
Regarding the other manifestations, one thing I have observed is a superstitious attitude among wayfers. So eager for signs, miracles, and wonders and receiving revelation from God, they look for these things in the random coincidences of daily life. "I know it was God working in me to do such and such, because look how well it turned out." "It was really 'of God' that I got to the store when I did - just in time to get that last jar of mayo." Maybe these are dumb examples, but you probably know what I mean. Seeking after signs, you will find them everywhere.
Regarding Interpretation of Tongues and Prophecy, I have to admit that while there were definitely lots of repetitive uninspiring messages, there where other times where the relevance of the words was uncanny. It was those times where it was so timely and relevant the lent credibility to the premise that these were messages inspired of God.
Regarding the other manifestations, one thing I have observed is a superstitious attitude among wayfers. So eager for signs, miracles, and wonders and receiving revelation from God, they look for these things in the random coincidences of daily life. "I know it was God working in me to do such and such, because look how well it turned out." "It was really 'of God' that I got to the store when I did - just in time to get that last jar of mayo." Maybe these are dumb examples, but you probably know what I mean. Seeking after signs, you will find them everywhere.
I know I've caught myself doing that. In particular the prophecies at weddings and dedications. Looking for some sign that that so-and-so will be the next president. I know a lot of people record the prophecy and put it on the wall, or in their wallet. (My wife and I began to realize how wierd this is and have decided to stop the practice)
I saw the prophecy LCM gave over RFR during her ceremony into the trustees/directors. He prophesied she would "heal this ministry".
how do you see SIT is real? Come-one guys - Figure of speech for understand.
As far as the number of repeats in content being inspiring. Furthur on in my post I said that some started filling in by habit or made it up "something from the bible was usally safe". Maybe I should have made that clearer.
And sometimes I think God keeps repeating the same thing in hopes that sometime, someone will "get it." and act on it. I honestly believe, and I admit I could be wrong, that the content and accuracy of the manifistations is often dependant on us. IF we do what we are supposed to do they change. If make them up, they may change but do us no real good. At least no more than we would get quoting the word to each other.
how do you see SIT is real? Come-one guys - Figure of speech for understand.
As far as the number of repeats in content being inspiring. Furthur on in my post I said that some started filling in by habit or made it up "something from the bible was usally safe". Maybe I should have made that clearer.
And sometimes I think God keeps repeating the same thing in hopes that sometime, someone will "get it." and act on it. I honestly believe, and I admit I could be wrong, that the content and accuracy of the manifistations is often dependant on us. IF we do what we are supposed to do they change. If make them up, they may change but do us no real good. At least no more than we would get quoting the word to each other.
I was taught at the gulag that the quality of your prophecy depends on how much you SIT and study the Word. My issue is that I am not inspired or comforted by manifestations. I receive nothing. I noone receive, what good is giving. I didn't see them as instructions or report backs on progress.
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A big LOSHUNTA to you Bolshevik. When I was amongst corps it was always fresh and new and exciting. outside of the corps household it was loshunta ,loshunta lodanga, I the Lord you God am....., And I was bored to tears. I kept thinking how I could help people get out of those phony things but after years gave up. The Intermediate class with the excellors sessions couldn't do it so TWI had nothing further to offer (except for The Forehead standing up and ranting viciously at anyone and everyone. I sometimes thought his ranting was prophecy - from whom I will never know, but it was hard to figure that anyone could get that ....ed off all the time and not have something telling him what to say.
The groups I was with afterwards sometimes used the manifestations and sometimes did not. I missed the real genuine that I was a part of in the corps. I have not heard them in around ten years but would like too
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T-Bone
Howdy, Bolshevik and welcome to GSC…I'm with you on the holy boredom thing. Looking back on my TWI experience I'd have to say I doubt that the stuff I saw and heard was genuine. Like a lot of things I learned through TWI – I have devoted much personal study on the utterance manifestations – and believe they were geared to filling a need at a specific time in the church's early years – but that's just my opinion. I do not find clear-cut scriptural evidence to indicate that it is mandated for Christians now. And I certainly disagree with VPW's teaching that manifestations were distributed according to the will of the believer – which contradicts I Corinthians 12:11 saying the Spirit determines the recipients.
I posted some excerpts from a theology book on the Letter from John Lynn thread post # 635 – which I will post again here – I thought it presented a somewhat balanced view on the topic. The following excerpts are from Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson, 1985, Baker Books, pages 878-881:
"…On the other side of the argument are those who reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is still dispensing the charismatic gifts. They argue that historically the miraculous gifts ceased; they were virtually unknown throughout most of the history of the church. When they were present, it was generally in isolated groups characterized by unorthodox beliefs on a number of major doctrines…
…Some theologians would argue for the passing of the miraculous gifts on the basis of Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation…was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will." The thrust of this argument is that the purpose of the miraculous gifts was to attest to and thus authenticate the revelation and the incarnation. When that purpose had been fulfilled, the miracles being unnecessary, they simply faded away. [page 878]
…In my judgment it is not possible to determine with any certainty whether the contemporary charismatic phenomena are indeed gifts of the Holy Spirit. There simply is no biblical evidence indicating the time of fulfillment of the prediction that tongues will cease. It is questionable at best to conclude on the basis of the difference between the verbs in I Corinthians 13:8 that tongues will cease at one time, and prophecy and knowledge at another. Nor is the historical evidence clear and conclusive. The situation here is somewhat like the situation with respect to the doctrine of apostolic succession. There is a great deal of evidence on both sides. Each group is able to cite an impressive amount of data which are to its advantage, bypassing the data presented by the other group. This lack of historical conclusiveness is not a problem, however. For even if history proved that the gift of tongues has ceased, there is nothing to prevent God from reestablishing it. On the other hand, historical proof that the gift has been present through the various eras of the church would not validate the present phenomena…
…In the final analysis, whether the Bible teaches that the Spirit dispenses special gifts today is not an issue of great practical consequence. For even if he does, we are not to set our lives to seeking them. He bestows them sovereignly; he alone determines the recipients . If he chooses to give us a special gift, he will do so regardless of whether we expect it or seek it. What we are commanded to do [Ephesians 5:18] is to be filled with the Holy Spirit [a present imperative, suggesting ongoing action].This is not so much a matter of our getting more of the Holy Spirit; presumably all of us possess the Spirit in his entirety. It is rather, a matter of his possessing more of our lives…" [pages 880, 881]
End of excerpts
I especially liked the last paragraph – because the author acknowledges the sovereignty of God. He is in charge. It is His prerogative if He wishes to bestow a gift to someone.
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waysider
Bolshevik
Talk about boredom! Imagine having a believers' meeting 3 times a day, 7 days a week for 3 years straight.(bare minimum). To add to the tedium, we were taught that the "mannies" were never to address a specific situation but were to be general in nature.(kinda like a horoscope,huh?) Can you imagine if the manifestations actually DID address current issues? "Yea, mah peeps, get off thy tushies and and go get jobs If thou shalt do so, surely wealth shall befall thee(after thine ABS be laid at the feet of the Holy Ones.)"
I still believe in divine inspiration(revelation) because I think I've seen it in my own life. I don't, however, believe that our speaking in tongues or operating believers' meetings has any bearing on whether or not God decides to reveal something to you nor do I think it has any effect on our ability to receive.
I remember a particular instance when I had a very vivid thought(like an image you might see in a daydream) and it took me totally unawares. I was very new to TWI at that time(probably about 1 or 2 weeks after I was witnessed to) I don't think I even spoke in tongues yet at that point. I did not fully understand what it meant and even felt guity about it for years to come because it involved taking action which I did not take but should have. I posted on it in one of my early posts. When I came to GSC and saw some of the escapades of TWI that I was unaware of, I thought to myself,"Holy crap! so THAT'S what that was all about!" I'm sure others have similar anecdotes they could relate.
But,yeah, real or not, I don't think TWI had any special insight on the proper way to operate or understand the manifestations. It (their version of it) was really just a formalized type of ritual annointed by the "holy" powers at TWI
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Kevlar2000
I always had a vague unease about how Way leaders could define what kind of message was "brought forth" from interpretation of tongues and prophecy; kinda like stepping on God's toes. God knows what message He wants to deliver. What's next - telling you what your tongue has to sound like? We were constantly told we had to "develop" our tongue - Isn't what comes out of your mouth God's prerogative?
"Well, Kevlar, you didn't have enough "LoShantas" in your tongue - are you sure you don't have a counterfeit? And what was that about "Mala alakazam oh meet me at the tiki bar"? :lol:
Like I said, maybe it's just me. :huh:
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coolchef
i no longer sit but at one time i did like a house afire
and i didn't believe it the either
what a fake i was
i am not suggesting that some people can't sit but i was a phoney
bah! poppycock
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waysider
Hey! Anybody ever done this?
In the '70's, it seemed like everybody played at least some basic guitar.
We would get together in a circle(5 or 6 of us) and someone would start a basic chord pattern.
As we continued to play that pattern, we would go around the circle giving "words of prophesy".(sung, not spoken)
It's probably not too unlike what rappers do with rhyme and challenges.
I don't know how much God was actually involved but we sure had a bunch of fun.
We probably would have gotten the boot if HQ had found out :)
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TheInvisibleDan
Every so often I resort to using tongues when working on music to which I have no lyrics yet.
It can be quite useful in that regard.
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TrustAndObey
I'll be honest enough to say that most anytime the "utterance' manifestations were done by me, I was more "moved by" or should I say "required by" TWI than I was "moved by the spirit".. Peer pressure most of the time, pure and simple..
Sure I wanted to do God's will, and I'm sure there were times when God's spirit was energized within me to speak a word of prophecy, but that was not the norm.
And I definitely do not hold to TWI's understanding of them. I think it was another instance of men trying to make more out of God's Word and bending the flagpole too far the other way.. No doubt we see God's spirit has been manifested since the beginning of ages and the Old Covenant given to Abraham and Moses. So I have no doubt it can or at times is manifested today. However, 'I' don't think it is 'MY" spirit that "I' can do with as "I" choose and have it manifest itself anytime 'I' desire and I have yet to find scripture to say otherwise, but rather it is God's spirit that 'HE" has placed in us. As it is written, "That no man speaking by God's spirit can call Jesus accursed'. There is nowhere in scripture where it says there are 9, and 9 alone. It just happens to list 9 different ways the spirit has been manifested itself in Corinthians, does that mean that's the only way God's spirit manifests itself? I think it's man's wisdom to say so, and also places God and the spirit he places in is in a man made box. Sure it is a gift and a down payment of the fullness of the spirit that is to come, but why else would it be written, "Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you HIS holy spirit." It is still HIS given to us for a down payment for our benefit until the fullness comes! Just as the earth is still the Lord's but he has given it to us for our benefit.
Oh well, maybe it should be another doctrinal section thread...
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lindyhopper
I can't say I have thought about it quite like that before, but how true. Having grown up in TWI I saw a lot of young people SIT for the first time, whether at the end of session 12 or in a different setting. I can't tell you how many times I saw young teens break down in tears, and not tears of joy, from the fustration and the pressure to SIT. They thought they couldn't do it, but after the pressure from the class teacher and whoever was undersheparding them and who.ever else and many attempts they finally did it while in tears. The language was always surprisingly similar to SITing in the fellowship or to VPW's...along the "shanta" variety.
I've voice my problems and doubt of SIT before so I won't do it yet again. I will agree though that in the areas that I have been in , they difinitely practiced the manifestations of holy boredom.
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coolchef
imo sit equals bogus 90% of the time loshanta this doc!
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2fortheroad
Holy cr*p don't call on me...what am I going to make up this time??? Faked it for 12 years...and guess what...they told me I had a "long suit" in interpretation and prophecy :huh:
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Oakspear
In more than a few traditions, speaking in tongues is an ecstatic utterance that indicates...ecstasy. The words, or sounds, themselves often have no significance other than an as emotional outlet for the speaker. Not surprising that Christians would do this as well. Throwing in the expectation of interpreting the sounds is where the pressure and fakery comes in.
I've heard several people in pagan traditions, including some native American sects, make sounds that are indistinguishable from what I heard as speaking in tongues in TWI or in other charismatic or pentecostal groups.
Did someone mention excellor sessions? Even when I was at my most "brainwashed" I thought that practicing a language that God was supposedly supllying the sounds and words for was futile at best. "That you speak is your business, what you speak is God's business" was what Wierwille used to say. If that was so, then how could one become more fluent in a tongue? How could we call on people to start a word or a sentence with a particular letter of the alphabet? And why were some people's tongues the same every time?
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TrustAndObey
I'm with you on that Oakspear.. I think glossalia (toungues and/or speaking) was another way ve in der vay were taught to force God to do what we desire. First it's believing things into fruition, now it's speaking and what you speak even though coerced by man was God's doing...
I have no doubt that the apostles spoke in other languages as the spirit (GOD) gave them utterance... And I have no doubt Paul spoke in other tongues more than the rest.. However, I have high doubts that it was anything similar than what we know today as speaking in tongues where we by our desire force God to do as we please.
Nope, I think God is in control and it is HE who energizes HIS spirit IN us and how that manifests itself is nothing we humans can put in a stupid man-made box.
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shortfuse
I haven't thought about this in a while, we used to joke about naming future kids after VP's SITing in PFAL.
"LaShanda, Malakasita, get y'all narrow butts over here!"
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Keith
First - From what I can see - SIT is real and should be done. I think most (not all) of what TWI taught regarding its use in church accurate. I don't say this because of Waybrain (at least I hope not) but from re-working the area myself.
I think some people did fake the interpratations and prophcies, often because they really hadn't tied into God and were under pressure. It was always safe, to say something that came from the Bible. I think some people where trapped into habits, and said the same things over and over again as well.
But something else that I think happened a lot which led to a lot of repeating is that we didn't do what God asked us to do in the manifesitations. Stand on the Word and Believe my word ...OK. However many of us confused standing on the Word with standing on the Ministry. When I have been in an area where people were really acting on what they believed from the Bible (not the a ministry) the content of the manifestations changed drasticly. I can always tell when we are begining to lose focus in our group. When the manifestations start coming out on a regular basis "Stand on my word, speak my word, know that I love you and I desire to help you. I am always with you, and Look unto me." I know that we have stagnated and taken our eyes off of God.
Come to think of it, - that's what happening now - Thanks for the wake up.
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skyrider
Ever notice.......that EVEN wierwille's tongues SOUNDED THE SAME when he demonstrated it to his class of students? Even after a separation of years, when wierwille spoke in tongues, it seemed like he had only two variations of LoShanta Malakasitos.
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Eyesopen
I read this thread last night and decided to go back and read the section in I Corinthians again. Low and behold but it read the same way it did the first time that I had read it long before ole VP put in his two cents worth of incorrect interpretation.
The gifts (all of them not just the 9 listed) are from God they are His gifts and He decides who gets what and/or how many according to the need of the body. The gifts are for profit to the body of Christ. Therefore they are given to those who can administer and operate them at the time.
I remember VP saying that it was stupid to have one person with Tongues and another with interpretation, because what if one of them doesn't show up for church? How stupid that sounded then and now...why did he always feel the need to limit God? God clearly states that He could give a man several gifts as He (God) desired. VP interpreted that verse as saying that man had the ability to get extra gifts from God because the man wanted them. I don't know about you but my child can ask for a motocross bike all day long but until I believe that he can operate it safely and in the correct places I am not giving that gift to him. It certainly would not benefit the family if he were to wreck the stupid thing or worse hurt someone.
The chapter goes on to use a couple of analogies that emphasize the different jobs of the individual parts of the body and how each one is important and dependent upon all of the others to make one whole and entire body. Those parts that appear feeble or uncomely should not be cast out or critisized. God gives them something extra to make them equal to everyone else so there is no schizm in the body.
I do not see anywhere in the section that states "All 9 all the time". I think that was just another TWI thing to make people feel inferior to others that "were walking in the spirit" doncha know.
As for true manifestations of Tongues, Interpretation or Prophecy. It is obvious from this thread that many "faked" it and I do not doubt the truth of those statements. As I have already demonstrated I do not believe that God gave everyone the gift of tongues. Think about it how does that benefit the body of Christ? Perhaps at the true moment of becoming born again the new believer could have spoken in tongues to "prove" it to themselves (I haven't gotten back into this research yet), but what would be the benefit to the body if every part of the body could all do the same thing? Using God's analogy "if your eye could see, smell, hear, taste, touch, pump blood, walk etc what would everything else do?
So thats what I see...how about ya'll? :D
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lindyhopper
As far as I can see, belief in God is purely faith and anything like SIT is an action based on that faith and whether it is real or not is again purely a statement of faith and not of observation.
Having lived in Baltimore for quite a while, I can say that clearly there were some people naming their kids this way.
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lindyhopper
Yeah, but what is the profit of telling us something in a vague sort of way that is already stated repeatedly in the Bible in many different ways. I mean were we supposed to be more sure of the commandment "turn not to the right hand nor to the left, but stay on the path I have set before you," just because different people kept repeating it over and over again for years? It doesn't add up to me. It wasn't inspiring the first ten times, why would it help to hear it another two hundred times. You would think that if God was truly inspiring people in a specific setting to say something specific to inspire this perticular group of people that the God who created the heavens and the earth could communicate something that would knock the socks off of everyone in that room. Instead, we heard the same thing over and over again except maybe in a different order and usually lining up with the most recent teaching series....which was also something that had been taught repeatedly over the years.
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Bolshevik
I don't know how many times I've been "called out" for snoozing at ministry functions.
Once I was instructed to stand for an entire fellowship while everyone else sat. People used to through things at me in the PWA during the Advanced class when I was sleepy. 
That reminds me, does anyone remember when we used to have to stand when we sang in fellowhip? (It was supposesd to help us practice following the leader or something)
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shortfuse
Regarding Interpretation of Tongues and Prophecy, I have to admit that while there were definitely lots of repetitive uninspiring messages, there where other times where the relevance of the words was uncanny. It was those times where it was so timely and relevant the lent credibility to the premise that these were messages inspired of God.
Regarding the other manifestations, one thing I have observed is a superstitious attitude among wayfers. So eager for signs, miracles, and wonders and receiving revelation from God, they look for these things in the random coincidences of daily life. "I know it was God working in me to do such and such, because look how well it turned out." "It was really 'of God' that I got to the store when I did - just in time to get that last jar of mayo." Maybe these are dumb examples, but you probably know what I mean. Seeking after signs, you will find them everywhere.
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Bolshevik
I know I've caught myself doing that. In particular the prophecies at weddings and dedications. Looking for some sign that that so-and-so will be the next president. I know a lot of people record the prophecy and put it on the wall, or in their wallet. (My wife and I began to realize how wierd this is and have decided to stop the practice)
I saw the prophecy LCM gave over RFR during her ceremony into the trustees/directors. He prophesied she would "heal this ministry".
Prophecy? or an act?
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Keith
To respond to two comments to my post
how do you see SIT is real? Come-one guys - Figure of speech for understand.
As far as the number of repeats in content being inspiring. Furthur on in my post I said that some started filling in by habit or made it up "something from the bible was usally safe". Maybe I should have made that clearer.
And sometimes I think God keeps repeating the same thing in hopes that sometime, someone will "get it." and act on it. I honestly believe, and I admit I could be wrong, that the content and accuracy of the manifistations is often dependant on us. IF we do what we are supposed to do they change. If make them up, they may change but do us no real good. At least no more than we would get quoting the word to each other.
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Bolshevik
I was taught at the gulag that the quality of your prophecy depends on how much you SIT and study the Word. My issue is that I am not inspired or comforted by manifestations. I receive nothing. I noone receive, what good is giving. I didn't see them as instructions or report backs on progress.
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