The momentus thing got me going about qualifications, or the lack thereof.
Why is this true for these kind of organizations? CES included..
Those in authority often don't have qualifications, credentials. Or few, or the wrong ones, to run an organization, to counsel PEOPLE.
It seems a lot of people followed up on v.p.'s example of throwing caution to the wind to acquire a skunk-pelt from a degree mill, so to speak. Some didn't even bother going that far.
I can understand how some people feel- why stifle people.. why denigrate their abilities because they lack the proper sheepskin, or proper credentials.. and I partly agree. BUT. In the "real world" it is the EXCEPTION that someone lacks the proper educational requirements, degrees and certificates. Not the RULE.
ESPECIALLY when it comes to helping people, as some kind of psychological "trainer" or such.
Maybe they think it's too late to go back to school, learn it right..
maybe they've graduated from High School, and don't have a place to go. There's, on one hand, several more years of hard work.. on the other, EASY MONEY.
All of those "fluff" classes in college as they call them, are there for a reason.. if you graduate from a reputable school today, you know a little about ethics, history, and perhaps philosophy. No matter what your degree is in.
They are less likely to follow a bunch of lemmings down a deep hole.
The history prof at my school said something to the class like "awwww, you don't see why you should learn history, boo hoo hoo. Maybe you oughta go to a certification place, someplace like Devries. They won't make you learn history.."
He wasn't QUITE that mean.. heheh.
Sometimes those that are qualified on paper are not the right people for the job. Sometimes the right people for
the job lack paper qualifications. Either way, I would prefer the qualified person to be in the job, with paper
qualifications or not. Life experience is a vast proving ground that makes us experienced in many areas.
People that are inspired and able and are in a job that they love would seem to have the best foundation
for being really qualified. Formal training and certification is nice, but obviously doesn't tell the whole story.
True, it may not tell the whole story. But qualifications do say a lot.
When it comes to something as critical as surgery or medical diagnosis or treatment, psychological or psychiatric work or therapy, I think some academic qualifications are the STARTING POINT. If you dont sleep in class, you receive the benefit of absorbing the material from an instructor who sees the big picture. Then add a few years of experience. Even with training, they don't weigh down a new graduate with responsibility that they cannot handle. If you are a surgeon, you spend quite a bit of time watching a qualified person working on a brain before you are allowed to pick up the knife. Same for psychological work and therapy. It may not be a perfect world, but "they" really DON'T like "mistakes". Some have ethics, others simply assess mistakes as too costly for an organization.
If a person wanted to paint my house, I might check a few references. I wouldn't ask to see their doctorate in painting. The level of qualifications should be appropriate to the level of difficulty and how critical the job is.
But it takes NO qualifications for these guys, to simply open a psychological three day "drive through". There's one on every corner. Sure it's "cheap", unless they slip with the knife. Oh, the hold harmless agreement takes care of that little problem. Well, they aren't REALLY practicing medicine or anything..
Same for some of those who start a nice bible organization. They have all the answers, "God" told them after all.. they don't need a degree..
I've seen these quacks counsel women to stay in violent, abusive relationships because of what they THINK the bible says. And there is zero accountability.
Reminds me of the abortion "doctors" in the early 1900's.
Wordwolf, great point. I've been listening to a CD of a teaching done by a John Turner, at the church we go to locally. Didn't hear it that day but got the CD. He covers some of material related to Jesus, the Rabbi/Teacher, briefly. It's an aspect to consider when considering who Jesus was and what He did in his day, how he interacted with others and what they would have thought of Him.
His qualifications were established by his knowledge of their scriptures, indeed. He would have studied and committed the Talmud to memory and if He followed the pattern of training of a Rabbi (as shown in that example of Him being in the temple discussing it at a young age) He would have spent His whole life in it.
The way questions and answers come up through the gospel records was typical. A point of doctrine would be posed, what does this mean, how does this work, and questioning and answering, discussing and learning would follow.
For Jesus to come up from no recognized Rabbi would have been significant too. The logical question would be, where did you study? Where did you learn this, who's your Rabbi? We know His answer to that. And He answered as one having "authority", His answers weren't one of many possibilities, He's recorded as speaking definitively - "this means that", "I am this", "God is that".
The way He got students too - He chose them, and they came to Him over time. The following of Jesus as a Teacher in his day would have been unique, if a person chose to follow His teaching. Any adult would have already not chosen a religious career, so to speak. That was done from a very young age. It's no wonder that His group of followers, what we might call today His "church", was viewed as questionable by other Rabbi's and religious leaders. "Who's this rabble you've assembled, we've never heard of any of them, or you for that matter". It definitely would have been intriguing. His "Talmudin" were regular folks, guys and gals.
I was thinking in relation to your thread point Mr. Hamm, of qualifications today that people bring. In a basic way this does apply to any "Christian" endeavor. Jesus Christ is the central figure, the "Rabbi", Teacher a Christian chooses to follow. Someone doing that shouldn't look to say, His example and determine they can go off on their own and do their own thing.
The point of being a follower of Jesus Christ is pursusing His teaching, closely. He's the "leader", the one who's "school", class, questions and answers His followers are committing to embrace. Whether it's considering what He taught, did, "what would Jesus do", or who He is today to me, it's always the same.
#! qualification that needs to be identified in a Christian "leader" is, are they truly a follower of their Teacher, ie, Jesus, their "savior". What does that person teach, refer to, "lead" someone to? In Jesus's day, He could say "I'll teach, you listen, I'll take your questions and give you the answers, we'll talk and discuss and come to the point you learn and believe". He's the "Rabbi', the Teacher. That's where all roads lead to. It may not be easy, but it's not complicated when I look at it that way.
To some "leaders" - I think - that's a little too nebulous, too vague, too "so not now". There's a need to fill in the silence we experience sometimes with activity, exercises, things we can do to make that more tangible. But there's never any real "silence" for a student in the presence of their Teacher. Every moment is one of learning and fulfillment, both of purpose and personal satisfaction.
That can definitely be a distraction, all the activity that gets cooked up. Either Jesus is the Teacher, there's "Christ in us", and we're learning what that means and how to live that way, or He's not and we're not. If He's not and we're not, if we're doing something else, fine. We're choosing another Rabbi/Teacher, a person and their "ministry" for instance. But again it's simple - if there's some sort of "ministry" it has to be one that serves to enhance and contribute to our relationship with Jesus Christ. We literally don't "follow' anyone else over anyone else. There can be only "One". :)
Yes – great points Hamm, WordWolf and Socks! And Socks, thinking about your post on the # 1 qualification of a Christian "leader" being that the person is truly a FOLLOWER of the Teacher, Jesus Christ – that reminded me of what Jesus said in Luke. There's lots of stuff in this passage about the influence Christians can have on each other, about leadership, about self-examination, about looking at what type of fruit comes out of our labor, about change and growth – and most importantly He brings it back to the critical qualifying question – if I am calling Jesus Lord, am I doing what He says?
Luke 6:39-49 NASB
39 And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 "A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. 41 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye. 43 "For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44 "For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
46 "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47 "Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 "But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."
I was thinking in relation to your thread point Mr. Hamm, of qualifications today that people bring. In a basic way this does apply to any "Christian" endeavor. Jesus Christ is the central figure, the "Rabbi", Teacher a Christian chooses to follow. Someone doing that shouldn't look to say, His example and determine they can go off on their own and do their own thing.
I think that is the whole point here, Socks.
And this is what I see: groups vying for followers and influence, trying to fill the gap in the christian world, trying to supply something NEW and NOVEL that the REST of christianity supposedly does not have.
For SOME people, I believe they think this is easier than their real personal calling. I've heard some speak their organization something to the effect of "well, we're not here for enjoyment. You can get THAT in an ordinary civic organization. If we are doing THE SAME THING the REST of the church is doing, then you might as well just go to church, or join a civic group or something.."
I think it is a sad state of existence if a person HAS to be different, or an iconoclast, to think he or she is getting results, or to think that to stand out in such a manner is what really gives purpose in life.
I sincerely believe that this mind set is a part of the set of "bones" that SOME offshoots have choked on, instead of enjoying the Bread of Life.
These "seekers after signs" don't seem to be satisfied with much of anything.. they go scouring over the face of the earth, looking for something even more controversial and splashy to add to their "unique" package, momentus from people utterly devoid of authority and qualifications, and the personal prophecy fiasco of a belief, from whom only God knows.
Good point, Mr. Hammeroni. I think these people are caught up in the same thinking that the Pharisees were. Seeking after their own importance...the pride thing.
It's a sad state of affairs, indeed. Celebrity can be very intoxicating...and even addictive.
Thank you, Ham. I was just thinking of the old adage...Pride goeth before a fall.
It seems to me, to be a natural tendency for humans to like to have a "claim to fame", so to speak...something they can take personal pride in.
That in itself isn't evil, or wrong at all, but if not balanced with humility, it can grow out of control, resulting in some pretty devastating situations for all concerned.
It seems to me, to be a natural tendency for humans to like to have a "claim to fame", so to speak...something they can take personal pride in.
That in itself isn't evil, or wrong at all, but if not balanced with humility, it can grow out of control, resulting in some pretty devastating situations for all concerned.
I would agree. Nothing wrong with fame and fortune, as long as you're not climbing up on the bodies of your half dead "victims" to acquire it..
I think "they" worship the idea of fame, adore it.
Lived so long in front of the microphone, wouldn't know what else to do in life.. I wonder if they've noticed the crowd thinning out.
I wonder if they will probably die on stage, their cold dead fingers grasping the microphone, like some poor beggar claiming squatter's rights on an empty mine.
So I wonder where ces is after all of this today..
Are they "raising up new leadership"
i.e. promoting young followers to go to college, get a degree, become honest to God REAL, QUALIFIED counsellors, doctors.. (God forbid) LAWYERS.. REAL, QUALIFIED educators and teachers..
or are they promoting the same old same old.. "success" in a weekend momentus seminar..
with a "golly gee, you could really contribute here.. you could be a momentus trainer.."
or "we'll show you how to run MEETINGS.."
"how to do a word study"..
how to string chairs..
how to present the bribe, *ahem* gift onstage, to the visiting manogawd..
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caribousam
Sometimes those that are qualified on paper are not the right people for the job. Sometimes the right people for
the job lack paper qualifications. Either way, I would prefer the qualified person to be in the job, with paper
qualifications or not. Life experience is a vast proving ground that makes us experienced in many areas.
People that are inspired and able and are in a job that they love would seem to have the best foundation
for being really qualified. Formal training and certification is nice, but obviously doesn't tell the whole story.
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Ham
True, it may not tell the whole story. But qualifications do say a lot.
When it comes to something as critical as surgery or medical diagnosis or treatment, psychological or psychiatric work or therapy, I think some academic qualifications are the STARTING POINT. If you dont sleep in class, you receive the benefit of absorbing the material from an instructor who sees the big picture. Then add a few years of experience. Even with training, they don't weigh down a new graduate with responsibility that they cannot handle. If you are a surgeon, you spend quite a bit of time watching a qualified person working on a brain before you are allowed to pick up the knife. Same for psychological work and therapy. It may not be a perfect world, but "they" really DON'T like "mistakes". Some have ethics, others simply assess mistakes as too costly for an organization.
If a person wanted to paint my house, I might check a few references. I wouldn't ask to see their doctorate in painting. The level of qualifications should be appropriate to the level of difficulty and how critical the job is.
But it takes NO qualifications for these guys, to simply open a psychological three day "drive through". There's one on every corner. Sure it's "cheap", unless they slip with the knife. Oh, the hold harmless agreement takes care of that little problem. Well, they aren't REALLY practicing medicine or anything..
Same for some of those who start a nice bible organization. They have all the answers, "God" told them after all.. they don't need a degree..
I've seen these quacks counsel women to stay in violent, abusive relationships because of what they THINK the bible says. And there is zero accountability.
Reminds me of the abortion "doctors" in the early 1900's.
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Ham
Another thought.
They claim to screen out those who might break under pressure. How do they know?
It would seem to me, LOGICALLY, they are making a judgement on a person's personality and makeup, they are NOT qualified to make.
If the "patient" is on anti-depressant drugs, the thought that they might have adverse reactions to the "training" is kinda a given..
But for the rest, only a psychologist or psychiatrist could make any kind of legitimate assessment.
I think the "trainers" would do as well analyzing the bumps on the applicant's heads.
Those who study the bumps
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socks
Wordwolf, great point. I've been listening to a CD of a teaching done by a John Turner, at the church we go to locally. Didn't hear it that day but got the CD. He covers some of material related to Jesus, the Rabbi/Teacher, briefly. It's an aspect to consider when considering who Jesus was and what He did in his day, how he interacted with others and what they would have thought of Him.
His qualifications were established by his knowledge of their scriptures, indeed. He would have studied and committed the Talmud to memory and if He followed the pattern of training of a Rabbi (as shown in that example of Him being in the temple discussing it at a young age) He would have spent His whole life in it.
The way questions and answers come up through the gospel records was typical. A point of doctrine would be posed, what does this mean, how does this work, and questioning and answering, discussing and learning would follow.
For Jesus to come up from no recognized Rabbi would have been significant too. The logical question would be, where did you study? Where did you learn this, who's your Rabbi? We know His answer to that. And He answered as one having "authority", His answers weren't one of many possibilities, He's recorded as speaking definitively - "this means that", "I am this", "God is that".
The way He got students too - He chose them, and they came to Him over time. The following of Jesus as a Teacher in his day would have been unique, if a person chose to follow His teaching. Any adult would have already not chosen a religious career, so to speak. That was done from a very young age. It's no wonder that His group of followers, what we might call today His "church", was viewed as questionable by other Rabbi's and religious leaders. "Who's this rabble you've assembled, we've never heard of any of them, or you for that matter". It definitely would have been intriguing. His "Talmudin" were regular folks, guys and gals.
I was thinking in relation to your thread point Mr. Hamm, of qualifications today that people bring. In a basic way this does apply to any "Christian" endeavor. Jesus Christ is the central figure, the "Rabbi", Teacher a Christian chooses to follow. Someone doing that shouldn't look to say, His example and determine they can go off on their own and do their own thing.
The point of being a follower of Jesus Christ is pursusing His teaching, closely. He's the "leader", the one who's "school", class, questions and answers His followers are committing to embrace. Whether it's considering what He taught, did, "what would Jesus do", or who He is today to me, it's always the same.
#! qualification that needs to be identified in a Christian "leader" is, are they truly a follower of their Teacher, ie, Jesus, their "savior". What does that person teach, refer to, "lead" someone to? In Jesus's day, He could say "I'll teach, you listen, I'll take your questions and give you the answers, we'll talk and discuss and come to the point you learn and believe". He's the "Rabbi', the Teacher. That's where all roads lead to. It may not be easy, but it's not complicated when I look at it that way.
To some "leaders" - I think - that's a little too nebulous, too vague, too "so not now". There's a need to fill in the silence we experience sometimes with activity, exercises, things we can do to make that more tangible. But there's never any real "silence" for a student in the presence of their Teacher. Every moment is one of learning and fulfillment, both of purpose and personal satisfaction.
That can definitely be a distraction, all the activity that gets cooked up. Either Jesus is the Teacher, there's "Christ in us", and we're learning what that means and how to live that way, or He's not and we're not. If He's not and we're not, if we're doing something else, fine. We're choosing another Rabbi/Teacher, a person and their "ministry" for instance. But again it's simple - if there's some sort of "ministry" it has to be one that serves to enhance and contribute to our relationship with Jesus Christ. We literally don't "follow' anyone else over anyone else. There can be only "One". :)
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T-Bone
Yes – great points Hamm, WordWolf and Socks! And Socks, thinking about your post on the # 1 qualification of a Christian "leader" being that the person is truly a FOLLOWER of the Teacher, Jesus Christ – that reminded me of what Jesus said in Luke. There's lots of stuff in this passage about the influence Christians can have on each other, about leadership, about self-examination, about looking at what type of fruit comes out of our labor, about change and growth – and most importantly He brings it back to the critical qualifying question – if I am calling Jesus Lord, am I doing what He says?
Luke 6:39-49 NASB
39 And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 "A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. 41 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye. 43 "For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44 "For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
46 "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47 "Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 "But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."
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Ham
I think that is the whole point here, Socks.
And this is what I see: groups vying for followers and influence, trying to fill the gap in the christian world, trying to supply something NEW and NOVEL that the REST of christianity supposedly does not have.
For SOME people, I believe they think this is easier than their real personal calling. I've heard some speak their organization something to the effect of "well, we're not here for enjoyment. You can get THAT in an ordinary civic organization. If we are doing THE SAME THING the REST of the church is doing, then you might as well just go to church, or join a civic group or something.."
I think it is a sad state of existence if a person HAS to be different, or an iconoclast, to think he or she is getting results, or to think that to stand out in such a manner is what really gives purpose in life.
I sincerely believe that this mind set is a part of the set of "bones" that SOME offshoots have choked on, instead of enjoying the Bread of Life.
These "seekers after signs" don't seem to be satisfied with much of anything.. they go scouring over the face of the earth, looking for something even more controversial and splashy to add to their "unique" package, momentus from people utterly devoid of authority and qualifications, and the personal prophecy fiasco of a belief, from whom only God knows.
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Listener
Good point, Mr. Hammeroni. I think these people are caught up in the same thinking that the Pharisees were. Seeking after their own importance...the pride thing.
It's a sad state of affairs, indeed. Celebrity can be very intoxicating...and even addictive.
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Ham
I was thinking that too. A lot of them came out the womb of TWI just like that, addicted.
It is kinda pitiful too.. to have to stoop so low a person is buying their "drugs" from people who very likely barely made it out of high school.
And seeking out every second rate hawker on the street that's trying to sell them the Brooklyn Bridge.
Oh yes.. welcome to the Cafe, Listener. You can call me Ham.
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Listener
Thank you, Ham. I was just thinking of the old adage...Pride goeth before a fall.
It seems to me, to be a natural tendency for humans to like to have a "claim to fame", so to speak...something they can take personal pride in.
That in itself isn't evil, or wrong at all, but if not balanced with humility, it can grow out of control, resulting in some pretty devastating situations for all concerned.
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excathedra
well i was on the sandy becker show when i was 7
i also got my camera taken away when i was on the 2nd row of a rod stewart concert
--
and there you have it
--
my claim to fame
;)
sowwy claimS to fame
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pawtucket
YOU were the one with the camera!!!!!!!!
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excathedra
i was NOT. i had said that to protect the real offender
it's my kind nature
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dmiller
Sandy Becker we know.
Rod Stewart we know.
But who are you??
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P
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Ham
I would agree. Nothing wrong with fame and fortune, as long as you're not climbing up on the bodies of your half dead "victims" to acquire it..
I think "they" worship the idea of fame, adore it.
Lived so long in front of the microphone, wouldn't know what else to do in life.. I wonder if they've noticed the crowd thinning out.
I wonder if they will probably die on stage, their cold dead fingers grasping the microphone, like some poor beggar claiming squatter's rights on an empty mine.
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sprawled out
SANDY BECKER??!! NOW we're talkin'!!!
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excathedra
sprawlie, i humbly thank you for seeing the greatness
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Ham
So I wonder where ces is after all of this today..
Are they "raising up new leadership"
i.e. promoting young followers to go to college, get a degree, become honest to God REAL, QUALIFIED counsellors, doctors.. (God forbid) LAWYERS.. REAL, QUALIFIED educators and teachers..
or are they promoting the same old same old.. "success" in a weekend momentus seminar..
with a "golly gee, you could really contribute here.. you could be a momentus trainer.."
or "we'll show you how to run MEETINGS.."
"how to do a word study"..
how to string chairs..
how to present the bribe, *ahem* gift onstage, to the visiting manogawd..
I'd LIKE to think differently..
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pond
me to.
or at least learn from a place where you get some credit and make more money instead of giving it to them .
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