Scroll down to "concerned citizens" for a description of class content.
One of the least qualifying points made in defense of these hacks is "if you haven't taken it you can't really comment on it" since you don't really know what goes on. The response to that would have to be - so give the kind of details that would allow an interested person to make an honest informed decision.
Other weak responses: "Jesus didn't give detailed explanations to people about what He was doing".
When Jesus opens one of these classes, I'll give Him cart blanche.
These links give some details from people who have taken it. I'd be perfectly happy to read detailed descriptions of what the content is from satisfied customers too if they're out there. P.S. - to add - there's a postive feedback discussion portion in the second link. Interesting overall.
Preachers like Joyce Myers have been brought up in these discussions, comparing their lack of degrees and "qualifications" to Momentous instructors. It's a bad comparison IMO.
Generally bible preachers preach for free, there's no charge. Church services and meetings may include a financial collection but the benefits of attendance are free of charge to people that go, there's no compulsory fee to get in. The speakers want you to come, have something to say they believe is good and will be helpful and the doors are open - and work both ways.
Generally speaking. There may be books and CD's and assorted gee-gaws and collectibles offered, no question about that. There may be seminars that include a fee, too. Church services and meetings however are widely available at no charge.
So - if you don't like it, you don't have to haggle for a refund. If you do or don't like what you hear you're not restricted in what you can or can't say about it afterwards as a requirement to attend. You don't usually have to sign a waiver before hearing most church sermons, promising you won't hold them legally responsible for anything that goes wrong.
What you see and hear is what you get. Period, it's a free-will, come as you are or don't come deal in many many many many, lots of churches.
And there's a reason for that. Most preachers and ministers - a lot - don't equate spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ with making a buck. It's not a revenue stream, not a way to make money. If you are helped and join the church you aren't expected to now bring others in who can bring their money with them so they can pay up.
That and Momentous are hugely different, and I'd never compare what someone like Joyce Myers does to what a certified instructor of Momentous does, not even based on content but strictly based on expectation and requirements to attend.
For one of the real problems about running an organization by people who lack credentials.. look at Der Vey.
A guy who worked in a LUMBERYARD was chosen to head up the finances..
A second-rate JOCK was chosen as PRESIDENT.
(notice I didn't say "athlete" )
A Beretta-bearing THUG was chosen to run the work in a COUNTRY.
Holy smokes..
And there was no talking to these guys, no common sense.. neither SPIRITUAL sense, which they falsly ascribed to themselves.
They were better, in their own eyes, than those who had valid qualifications.
Ole doc had a valid Masters, there was no excuse for him as such..
But I remember him complaining, "wa, wa wa.. I can't do what I wanna, all you smart guys are trying to run this thing by your senses.." when those who qualified were RIGHT.
"Well, we know da verd.. " or "Father told me.." "end of 'discussion', THUS SAYETH THE LORD"
loy did that with the full time ministers debacle, when he was practicing the morals and sexual abstinence of a Guinea Pig.
To this day, anybody in power in that place won't admit it was a mistake.
I think people have to get to a certain age to understand what leadership is.
twi claims you have to be thirty to be a adult. I do not know about just because that was what they came up with as Jesus christ age when "his ministry began",
Twi talks to people that have for whatever reason been unable to say IM an adult I can chose my own choices and make my own decision.
it was often a case of co-denpendency which is and always will be rampant in our culture.
CES buys into that very healthy system and life style.
bottom line is allow someone eles to do your fixing of your soul and that is what your stuck with and it is never going to be correct or right or even work in many cases.
but it is easier than taking responsibility for your own choices and actions.
alot eaiser.
those who you allow to lead YOU want it for their own needs inside that are lacking and their need is for YOU to fill it up.. you can not hence why it is abuse all around.
no one gets "happy" or has their needs fullfilled.
i believe that is why the Lord says to have great courage it is NOT about fighting another person or a nation or a cold it is fighting the core of who we are and make choices that are good for us.
the line of those willing to tell me how to run my life is so darn long.. but those willing to hear my own plans and dreams and think I can succeed is very small.
God is on the human side He wants us all to succeed.
I have to go to work I kind of lost my point but it has to do with the scholorships you speak of.
I think people have to get to a certain age to understand what leadership is.
Good point. Why is it a LOT of these unqualified people start as a "trainer" or "leader" in these kind of organizations at a rather young age..
No qualifications necessary, well, maybe CPR training. SOMEBODY has to recognize when pressure from the training is pushing someone over the edge, and they're having a heart attack..
No qualifications, and NO EXPERIENCE EITHER, or little.
No experience or qualifications to get a job as a thug either. The "boss" is more than willing to watch you "learn as you go".
"Now filling leadership and training positions. Must be young, robust, healthy, motivated.. CPR training, and an appetite for sheep flesh a plus.
Must be willing to travel, and obey implicitly.
Only serious applicants please."
This was the perfect job for Mr. (now Rev) "I never mix my bread and vegetables" limb coordinator. He was so "successful" that they promoted him, and made him a region coordinator.
Take a flunky just out of high school, put him on the fast track..
To me, the parallels between TWI and some groups arerather striking.
They teach people how to hurt people. And provide every rationalization in the world to ease whatever conscience they may have had..
loy put a lot of these goons in charge.. and he said something to the effect of "well, can't learn to cook without breaking a few heads. Besides, we gotta get 'things' done.."
"the gain that we get will outweigh the FEW MISTAKES (they) will make.."
That is why the atitude is so difficult for them to see.
I do not think they realize what life is without the power and say so in peoples life.
people wanted it people still want it.
and it is a feel good thing to think your helping people in the name of God, and powerful when your talking about no holds bar god as they have put in their thinking.
a agent for God where does one draw the line?
really they do not have to.
see in real leadership, at some point along the way up you got slapped bad, and learned what it meant to make an error and realize that IS the growth of leadership.. with these groups it was given to them to use in the name of Jesus and they can and do take advantage of the ignorance in fact that is the very foundation of pfal MY people lack because of ignoranceblah blah class #1 WELL
it set up a power play YOUR ignorant from the get go .. and they are not.
in real life outside fantsy world of leadership it goes like YOU KNOW something I do not? PROVE IT?
see i do not blame anyone it is the system that is corrupt really.
and you can not ask past middle age men to change their thinking now why because bottom line is this is what has paid their bread line and bills their entire life.. not to metion their egos.
but I think that's fairly valid, Pond. Look at the response people got about the prophecy thingy-
"READ MY BOOK".
One thing your thought suggests to me.. with all of the "prophecies", "counter-prophecies", blaming, maneuvering.. the past middle age wolves have no place left to go. They lack the stamina and charisma to really work up a following anymore. So what do they do? They turn on themselves.
I'm glad I'm not directly in the middle of all this.
I feel sad for those who are.
Apparently there is no "honor among thieves", or thugs for that matter, anymore..
I think the TWI model of leadership might play a role in this discussion.
TWI leadership being charismatic, great public speakers, a aura of authority and command, flash and dash..though their personal life might be in shambles, no one was supposed to notice.
We often concluded that boy, howdy, he can teach the Word, it must be a gift ministry, when it may well have been a combination of personality, natural ability and good training.
Even in groups like WOW families, this played out. A total a h0le wow who got plenty of people in the class was lauded, while others who plodded through trying to be good people got ignored due to their lack of charisma and numbers( and no, I'm not whining about my wow year. We had waay other issues going on!)
Aggressive, out going, bold personalities were seen as leadership potential, while the quiet careful thoughtful folk weren't seen as having 'natural leadership ability.'
I think this has relevance on THIS discussion, as well.
The more aggressive, the better, or so they thought.
I would only add, reckless. Careless with PEOPLE. I think qualifications and experience only stood in the way.
For one of the real problems about running an organization by people who lack credentials.. look at Der Vey.
A guy who worked in a LUMBERYARD was chosen to head up the finances..
A second-rate JOCK was chosen as PRESIDENT.
(notice I didn't say "athlete" )
A Beretta-bearing THUG was chosen to run the work in a COUNTRY.
Holy smokes..
And there was no talking to these guys, no common sense.. neither SPIRITUAL sense, which they falsly ascribed to themselves.
They were better, in their own eyes, than those who had valid qualifications.
Ole doc had a valid Masters, there was no excuse for him as such..
But I remember him complaining, "wa, wa wa.. I can't do what I wanna, all you smart guys are trying to run this thing by your senses.." when those who qualified were RIGHT.
"Well, we know da verd.. " or "Father told me.." "end of 'discussion', THUS SAYETH THE LORD"
loy did that with the full time ministers debacle, when he was practicing the morals and sexual abstinence of a Guinea Pig.
To this day, anybody in power in that place won't admit it was a mistake.
CES is suffering the same fate.
Those on top are.. untouchable.
Until the lawyers get involved..
I thought that was worth repeating.
Well, you can ask..
but I think that's fairly valid, Pond. Look at the response people got about the prophecy thingy-
"READ MY BOOK".
One thing your thought suggests to me.. with all of the "prophecies", "counter-prophecies", blaming, maneuvering.. the past middle age wolves have no place left to go. They lack the stamina and charisma to really work up a following anymore. So what do they do? They turn on themselves.
I'm glad I'm not directly in the middle of all this.
I feel sad for those who are.
Apparently there is no "honor among thieves", or thugs for that matter, anymore..[/i]
OK, guys, I just had a thought....(please bear with me...lol)
Could it be that these folks who don`t bother with getting the credentials or qualifications are just basically lazy?
Could that laziness be a symptom that manifests itself in their ministries and self help groups? Is this why the results are so mixed, why the people whom are adversly affected by their groups are considered inconsequential?
Could it be that the attitude towards getting properly qualified is also seen in their lack of responsibility and accountability to the folks they claim to be benefitting?
Those in authority often don't have qualifications, credentials. Or few, or the wrong ones, to run an organization, to counsel PEOPLE.
Quote by Mr. Hammeroni
As for qualifications:
When Jesus finished telling these stories, he left there, returned to his hometown, and gave a lecture in the meetinghouse. He made a real hit, impressing everyone. "We had no idea he was this good!" they said. "How did he get so wise, get such ability?" But in the next breath they were cutting him down: "We've known him since he was a kid; he's the carpenter's son. We know his mother, Mary. We know his brothers James and Joseph, Simon and Judas. All his sisters live here. Who does he think he is?" They got their noses all out of joint.
I think that may be the whole point, rascal. Lazy. For some, there is a choice, hard work and study, or easy money.
And some of these jokers, to get them to even consider honest work, is near impossible. Why?
I think it's the same thing I heard Ross Perot say about the plight of so many sixteen year old crack dealers- they just can't make the same kind of living working at McDonalds. And school is too hard for them, so they say. No instant gratification the honest way. You're not gonna persuade them otherwise with small talk; the money is just too easy.
It doesn't take much skill, effort, education or training to be a thug.
I know that good people can freelance their way into doing something godly, AS A PROFESSION, AS A JOB, praise God for them, but I think they are the exception.
I think it is way to easy to throw "holy water" on it, and call it a "ministry" or such, claim that they have the power, and demand a following. It's instant gratification.
Some offshoots already had it made. They found a properly conditioned, otherwise unocupied bunch of people that left the vey, or kicked out, just looking for something to do. Ring the right bell, use the right catch-phrases, "here boy, comere, it's da word, da word.." and people come running, salivating. I don't know if that was what they had in mind, but that was the effect, nonetheless.
People are soooo afraid to let go of some of these groups.. I was too, but I eventually learned how to feed myself. And it isn't really all so bad.
Well....yeah, but wasn`t that Jesus? Do you not think he may have had a bit more on the ball then the people that we are discussing in these groups, as I think is evidenced in the widely differing impact of their actions?
I have to wonder if these folks, placing themselves on par with Jesus, isn`t what has been wrong with twi/ces/momentus all along.
When Jesus finished telling these stories, he left there, returned to his hometown, and gave a lecture in the meetinghouse. He made a real hit, impressing everyone. "We had no idea he was this good!" they said. "How did he get so wise, get such ability?" But in the next breath they were cutting him down: "We've known him since he was a kid; he's the carpenter's son. We know his mother, Mary. We know his brothers James and Joseph, Simon and Judas. All his sisters live here. Who does he think he is?" They got their noses all out of joint.
It's your opinion, but I wouldn't compare the false prophecies, counter false prophecies of J.L. M.G. et al, with their despicable treatment of the brethren to the actions and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
A wolf by any other name is still a wolf.
Sorry I won't salivate. The bell doesn't work anymore. I found my brain, and it still works.
And don't say Jesus didn't have qualifications. "This is my beloved son, hear ye HIM".
Honestly- I've NEVER read a gospel account where Jesus instructed people to beat pillows, screaming "mommy mommy mommy"
Never.
Paul or Peter never did either.
Only pillow I even know of in the new testament was the one Jesus slept on in the back of the boat..
No seminars to make people more aggressive..
No practice sessions of "real" life, throwing people out of a lifeboat..
No "prophetic counciels" sorting through piles of supposed "prophecies" of ugliness.. and using them to defame and discredit other "brethen".. to "protect the MINISTRY"..
One more thing. Why is it- someone who claims to be an engineer, and has only a B.A. in HISTORY.. or a man who claims to have a cure for a horrible disease, claims he came up with it independantly, and it is a hoax.. we unabashadly don them with the title "fraud".
But take the same guy, throw some holy water, or bible verses on his "endeavor", and it is practically automatically above reproach and suspicion in the minds of some. Why?
What's the difference?
I guess it is the "loving" thing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Or is it?
Well....yeah, but wasn`t that Jesus? Do you not think he may have had a bit more on the ball then the people that we are discussing in these groups, as I think is evidenced in the widely differing impact of their actions?
I have to wonder if these folks, placing themselves on par with Jesus, isn`t what has been wrong with twi/ces/momentus all along.
Ahem.
Jesus was a Rabbi.
He had all the qualifications of the job, which meant he did the work, and had the equivalent of
Certification at the time.
So, he had the professional qualifications at the time.
We know, for example, he had understanding, even at age 12- he REASONED with the scholars
at the temple, asking questions, AND ANSWERING.
At age 12, he impressed the people present with his skill at both.
(Compare that to full adults, whose idea of dialogue isn't "reasoning", it's "we're right and buy our book".)
At age 30, he found a precise verse in Isaiah without chapter and verse headings,
which means he spent a LOT of time in the Scriptures. We know he UNDERSTOOD them because this
is what he did at age 12, and he'd had more than another decade of study since then.
So it wasn't just using verses to justify his theology.
education is not the end all of knowledge, experience counts.. so consider what is their experience?
hmmm
education brings an accountability and a mix of fellows to play with in other words a person may indeed have a real gift for an area.. and school will help fine tune the ability to present that gift with the awareness of others who also pursue the same calling or gift.
these guys are loners it is truly their way or the highway.
one factor in this mess is the fact Mark is attending classes and mixing with those who bring new ideas and presentations to the goal of getting a piece of paper that says they now can but also have done what the degree admits.
they do not like this....
John S. has his "degree" by the way international and by his years spent doing what he has always done same with John Lynn.. they will not consider new ideas unless it is completely on their bred platform.
I have talent but it has to be tempered with the fact we need to work with other people and systems in place that may be wrong and ineffective .
no one gradutes from college and goes into a place and says I have all the answers because i went to college.
no ya work with what you got. try to enforce change when possible etc.
but not these guys again it is their "baby" and compromise and working with others well without the final say so and power just aint gonna happen.
I believe they feel quite entitled by now to know all what they know.
it isnt real.
those who have begun their own business will tell ya , alearning curve about what the competition is and capable of is quite awesome and where in many fail.
CES has never considered anything beyond what they considered as right because they began this thing with scrap from twi.
people fell into as blind as the leaders saw the "marks" (heheh) and took them.
it isnt leading or building anything.
a degree says you have done and completed a process of learning the way things are done in a area, these guys do not want this learning because they already have a set plan and process that has worked for them just fine and without one bit f questioning or grade on how.
I think you missed my point if you thought I was talking about Jesus's qualifications. I was referring to
the nay sayers that questioned his qualifications.
I am not among those who question or deny Jesus's qualifications.
I DO have an issue with corrupt MEN however.
People have been made a commodity of, and have been traded from "ministry" to "ministry".
People have been so conditioned to cut themselves off from the rest of the body- the mere mention of the word "trinity" in a church causes almost literal pain for some folks. Sorry, can't go there.. possessed ya know..
I think it is a Pavlovian response.
Ring the bell, shock the dog. Ring the bell, shock the dog. After a while, just ring the bell, and the dog will still jump without the shock.
Qualified, alright.. right out of a high school psychology textbook.
just for starters, the trainers get together before the training begins and review the information about the people who have signed up, to figure out who is most likely to express vocal resistance to the training techniques. Then, when the training begins, and that person starts to raise objections, the trainers browbeat and harass and humiliate and bullyrag that person without mercy, until he's psychologically beaten into submission. This is all a show, to intimidate everyone else, so that nobody dares raise a voice against the training practices.
Maybe they think it is "group therapy".
Perfect job for the guy voted "most likely to be a thug".
Recommended Posts
socks
Mr. H, some links to relevant discussions on Momentous-
Worth a read, kind of long
Lengthy, series of board posts, but includes some specific discussions about class content
Scroll down to "concerned citizens" for a description of class content.
One of the least qualifying points made in defense of these hacks is "if you haven't taken it you can't really comment on it" since you don't really know what goes on. The response to that would have to be - so give the kind of details that would allow an interested person to make an honest informed decision.
Other weak responses: "Jesus didn't give detailed explanations to people about what He was doing".
When Jesus opens one of these classes, I'll give Him cart blanche.
These links give some details from people who have taken it. I'd be perfectly happy to read detailed descriptions of what the content is from satisfied customers too if they're out there. P.S. - to add - there's a postive feedback discussion portion in the second link. Interesting overall.
Preachers like Joyce Myers have been brought up in these discussions, comparing their lack of degrees and "qualifications" to Momentous instructors. It's a bad comparison IMO.
Generally bible preachers preach for free, there's no charge. Church services and meetings may include a financial collection but the benefits of attendance are free of charge to people that go, there's no compulsory fee to get in. The speakers want you to come, have something to say they believe is good and will be helpful and the doors are open - and work both ways.
Generally speaking. There may be books and CD's and assorted gee-gaws and collectibles offered, no question about that. There may be seminars that include a fee, too. Church services and meetings however are widely available at no charge.
So - if you don't like it, you don't have to haggle for a refund. If you do or don't like what you hear you're not restricted in what you can or can't say about it afterwards as a requirement to attend. You don't usually have to sign a waiver before hearing most church sermons, promising you won't hold them legally responsible for anything that goes wrong.
What you see and hear is what you get. Period, it's a free-will, come as you are or don't come deal in many many many many, lots of churches.
And there's a reason for that. Most preachers and ministers - a lot - don't equate spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ with making a buck. It's not a revenue stream, not a way to make money. If you are helped and join the church you aren't expected to now bring others in who can bring their money with them so they can pay up.
That and Momentous are hugely different, and I'd never compare what someone like Joyce Myers does to what a certified instructor of Momentous does, not even based on content but strictly based on expectation and requirements to attend.
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Ham
For one of the real problems about running an organization by people who lack credentials.. look at Der Vey.
A guy who worked in a LUMBERYARD was chosen to head up the finances..
A second-rate JOCK was chosen as PRESIDENT.
(notice I didn't say "athlete" )
A Beretta-bearing THUG was chosen to run the work in a COUNTRY.
Holy smokes..
And there was no talking to these guys, no common sense.. neither SPIRITUAL sense, which they falsly ascribed to themselves.
They were better, in their own eyes, than those who had valid qualifications.
Ole doc had a valid Masters, there was no excuse for him as such..
But I remember him complaining, "wa, wa wa.. I can't do what I wanna, all you smart guys are trying to run this thing by your senses.." when those who qualified were RIGHT.
"Well, we know da verd.. " or "Father told me.." "end of 'discussion', THUS SAYETH THE LORD"
loy did that with the full time ministers debacle, when he was practicing the morals and sexual abstinence of a Guinea Pig.
To this day, anybody in power in that place won't admit it was a mistake.
CES is suffering the same fate.
Those on top are.. untouchable.
Until the lawyers get involved..
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ChasUFarley
You're forgetting that the lemmings that you referred to in your first post CHOOSE to thow themselves down the proverbial hole.
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Ham
True.. but if you're gonna go down a hole, why be miserable and alone?
Actually, "they" managed to chase off a lot of people that had some logic, education, and a few qualifications.
Those who would not blindly follow, the few who could not honestly "rubber stamp" the most mindless "research" known to the mind of man.
The sad part is, some who did leave became what it was that they left.
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pond
A second rate jock lololol
I think people have to get to a certain age to understand what leadership is.
twi claims you have to be thirty to be a adult. I do not know about just because that was what they came up with as Jesus christ age when "his ministry began",
Twi talks to people that have for whatever reason been unable to say IM an adult I can chose my own choices and make my own decision.
it was often a case of co-denpendency which is and always will be rampant in our culture.
CES buys into that very healthy system and life style.
bottom line is allow someone eles to do your fixing of your soul and that is what your stuck with and it is never going to be correct or right or even work in many cases.
but it is easier than taking responsibility for your own choices and actions.
alot eaiser.
those who you allow to lead YOU want it for their own needs inside that are lacking and their need is for YOU to fill it up.. you can not hence why it is abuse all around.
no one gets "happy" or has their needs fullfilled.
i believe that is why the Lord says to have great courage it is NOT about fighting another person or a nation or a cold it is fighting the core of who we are and make choices that are good for us.
the line of those willing to tell me how to run my life is so darn long.. but those willing to hear my own plans and dreams and think I can succeed is very small.
God is on the human side He wants us all to succeed.
I have to go to work I kind of lost my point but it has to do with the scholorships you speak of.
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Ham
yep.. second rate jock.
I do use that term with care, however.. no offense to the REAL athletes here. Both of my kids participated in athletics.
Real athletes have more than physical discipline. They're not just mindless brutes..
loy on the other hand..
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Ham
Good point. Why is it a LOT of these unqualified people start as a "trainer" or "leader" in these kind of organizations at a rather young age..
No qualifications necessary, well, maybe CPR training. SOMEBODY has to recognize when pressure from the training is pushing someone over the edge, and they're having a heart attack..
No qualifications, and NO EXPERIENCE EITHER, or little.
No experience or qualifications to get a job as a thug either. The "boss" is more than willing to watch you "learn as you go".
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Ham
"Help Wanted"
"Thugs for Jesus"
"Now filling leadership and training positions. Must be young, robust, healthy, motivated.. CPR training, and an appetite for sheep flesh a plus.
Must be willing to travel, and obey implicitly.
Only serious applicants please."
This was the perfect job for Mr. (now Rev) "I never mix my bread and vegetables" limb coordinator. He was so "successful" that they promoted him, and made him a region coordinator.
Take a flunky just out of high school, put him on the fast track..
To me, the parallels between TWI and some groups arerather striking.
They teach people how to hurt people. And provide every rationalization in the world to ease whatever conscience they may have had..
loy put a lot of these goons in charge.. and he said something to the effect of "well, can't learn to cook without breaking a few heads. Besides, we gotta get 'things' done.."
"the gain that we get will outweigh the FEW MISTAKES (they) will make.."
Same damn "ethics".
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pond
That is why the atitude is so difficult for them to see.
I do not think they realize what life is without the power and say so in peoples life.
people wanted it people still want it.
and it is a feel good thing to think your helping people in the name of God, and powerful when your talking about no holds bar god as they have put in their thinking.
a agent for God where does one draw the line?
really they do not have to.
see in real leadership, at some point along the way up you got slapped bad, and learned what it meant to make an error and realize that IS the growth of leadership.. with these groups it was given to them to use in the name of Jesus and they can and do take advantage of the ignorance in fact that is the very foundation of pfal MY people lack because of ignoranceblah blah class #1 WELL
it set up a power play YOUR ignorant from the get go .. and they are not.
in real life outside fantsy world of leadership it goes like YOU KNOW something I do not? PROVE IT?
see i do not blame anyone it is the system that is corrupt really.
and you can not ask past middle age men to change their thinking now why because bottom line is this is what has paid their bread line and bills their entire life.. not to metion their egos.
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Ham
Well, you can ask..
but I think that's fairly valid, Pond. Look at the response people got about the prophecy thingy-
"READ MY BOOK".
One thing your thought suggests to me.. with all of the "prophecies", "counter-prophecies", blaming, maneuvering.. the past middle age wolves have no place left to go. They lack the stamina and charisma to really work up a following anymore. So what do they do? They turn on themselves.
I'm glad I'm not directly in the middle of all this.
I feel sad for those who are.
Apparently there is no "honor among thieves", or thugs for that matter, anymore..
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Ham
From Bramble, on another thread:
I think this has relevance on THIS discussion, as well.
The more aggressive, the better, or so they thought.
I would only add, reckless. Careless with PEOPLE. I think qualifications and experience only stood in the way.
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WordWolf
I thought that was worth repeating.
This was worth repeating, also...
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rascal
OK, guys, I just had a thought....(please bear with me...lol)
Could it be that these folks who don`t bother with getting the credentials or qualifications are just basically lazy?
Could that laziness be a symptom that manifests itself in their ministries and self help groups? Is this why the results are so mixed, why the people whom are adversly affected by their groups are considered inconsequential?
Could it be that the attitude towards getting properly qualified is also seen in their lack of responsibility and accountability to the folks they claim to be benefitting?
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undone
Those in authority often don't have qualifications, credentials. Or few, or the wrong ones, to run an organization, to counsel PEOPLE.
Quote by Mr. Hammeroni
As for qualifications:
When Jesus finished telling these stories, he left there, returned to his hometown, and gave a lecture in the meetinghouse. He made a real hit, impressing everyone. "We had no idea he was this good!" they said. "How did he get so wise, get such ability?" But in the next breath they were cutting him down: "We've known him since he was a kid; he's the carpenter's son. We know his mother, Mary. We know his brothers James and Joseph, Simon and Judas. All his sisters live here. Who does he think he is?" They got their noses all out of joint.
Matthew 13:53-57 The Message
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Ham
I think that may be the whole point, rascal. Lazy. For some, there is a choice, hard work and study, or easy money.
And some of these jokers, to get them to even consider honest work, is near impossible. Why?
I think it's the same thing I heard Ross Perot say about the plight of so many sixteen year old crack dealers- they just can't make the same kind of living working at McDonalds. And school is too hard for them, so they say. No instant gratification the honest way. You're not gonna persuade them otherwise with small talk; the money is just too easy.
It doesn't take much skill, effort, education or training to be a thug.
I know that good people can freelance their way into doing something godly, AS A PROFESSION, AS A JOB, praise God for them, but I think they are the exception.
I think it is way to easy to throw "holy water" on it, and call it a "ministry" or such, claim that they have the power, and demand a following. It's instant gratification.
Some offshoots already had it made. They found a properly conditioned, otherwise unocupied bunch of people that left the vey, or kicked out, just looking for something to do. Ring the right bell, use the right catch-phrases, "here boy, comere, it's da word, da word.." and people come running, salivating. I don't know if that was what they had in mind, but that was the effect, nonetheless.
People are soooo afraid to let go of some of these groups.. I was too, but I eventually learned how to feed myself. And it isn't really all so bad.
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rascal
Well....yeah, but wasn`t that Jesus? Do you not think he may have had a bit more on the ball then the people that we are discussing in these groups, as I think is evidenced in the widely differing impact of their actions?
I have to wonder if these folks, placing themselves on par with Jesus, isn`t what has been wrong with twi/ces/momentus all along.
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Ham
It's your opinion, but I wouldn't compare the false prophecies, counter false prophecies of J.L. M.G. et al, with their despicable treatment of the brethren to the actions and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
A wolf by any other name is still a wolf.
Sorry I won't salivate. The bell doesn't work anymore. I found my brain, and it still works.
And don't say Jesus didn't have qualifications. "This is my beloved son, hear ye HIM".
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Ham
Honestly- I've NEVER read a gospel account where Jesus instructed people to beat pillows, screaming "mommy mommy mommy"
Never.
Paul or Peter never did either.
Only pillow I even know of in the new testament was the one Jesus slept on in the back of the boat..
No seminars to make people more aggressive..
No practice sessions of "real" life, throwing people out of a lifeboat..
No "prophetic counciels" sorting through piles of supposed "prophecies" of ugliness.. and using them to defame and discredit other "brethen".. to "protect the MINISTRY"..
what are people thinking?
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Ham
One more thing. Why is it- someone who claims to be an engineer, and has only a B.A. in HISTORY.. or a man who claims to have a cure for a horrible disease, claims he came up with it independantly, and it is a hoax.. we unabashadly don them with the title "fraud".
But take the same guy, throw some holy water, or bible verses on his "endeavor", and it is practically automatically above reproach and suspicion in the minds of some. Why?
What's the difference?
I guess it is the "loving" thing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Or is it?
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WordWolf
Ahem.
Jesus was a Rabbi.
He had all the qualifications of the job, which meant he did the work, and had the equivalent of
Certification at the time.
So, he had the professional qualifications at the time.
We know, for example, he had understanding, even at age 12- he REASONED with the scholars
at the temple, asking questions, AND ANSWERING.
At age 12, he impressed the people present with his skill at both.
(Compare that to full adults, whose idea of dialogue isn't "reasoning", it's "we're right and buy our book".)
At age 30, he found a precise verse in Isaiah without chapter and verse headings,
which means he spent a LOT of time in the Scriptures. We know he UNDERSTOOD them because this
is what he did at age 12, and he'd had more than another decade of study since then.
So it wasn't just using verses to justify his theology.
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pond
education is not the end all of knowledge, experience counts.. so consider what is their experience?
hmmm
education brings an accountability and a mix of fellows to play with in other words a person may indeed have a real gift for an area.. and school will help fine tune the ability to present that gift with the awareness of others who also pursue the same calling or gift.
these guys are loners it is truly their way or the highway.
one factor in this mess is the fact Mark is attending classes and mixing with those who bring new ideas and presentations to the goal of getting a piece of paper that says they now can but also have done what the degree admits.
they do not like this....
John S. has his "degree" by the way international and by his years spent doing what he has always done same with John Lynn.. they will not consider new ideas unless it is completely on their bred platform.
I have talent but it has to be tempered with the fact we need to work with other people and systems in place that may be wrong and ineffective .
no one gradutes from college and goes into a place and says I have all the answers because i went to college.
no ya work with what you got. try to enforce change when possible etc.
but not these guys again it is their "baby" and compromise and working with others well without the final say so and power just aint gonna happen.
I believe they feel quite entitled by now to know all what they know.
it isnt real.
those who have begun their own business will tell ya , alearning curve about what the competition is and capable of is quite awesome and where in many fail.
CES has never considered anything beyond what they considered as right because they began this thing with scrap from twi.
people fell into as blind as the leaders saw the "marks" (heheh) and took them.
it isnt leading or building anything.
a degree says you have done and completed a process of learning the way things are done in a area, these guys do not want this learning because they already have a set plan and process that has worked for them just fine and without one bit f questioning or grade on how.
which would you chose if you could?
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undone
And don't say Jesus didn't have qualifications. "This is my beloved son, hear ye HIM".
quote: Mr. Hammeroni
Jesus was a Rabbi.
He had all the qualifications of the job, which meant he did the work, and had the equivalent of
Certification at the time.
quote: Wordwolf
I think you missed my point if you thought I was talking about Jesus's qualifications. I was referring to
the nay sayers that questioned his qualifications.
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Ham
I am not among those who question or deny Jesus's qualifications.
I DO have an issue with corrupt MEN however.
People have been made a commodity of, and have been traded from "ministry" to "ministry".
People have been so conditioned to cut themselves off from the rest of the body- the mere mention of the word "trinity" in a church causes almost literal pain for some folks. Sorry, can't go there.. possessed ya know..
I think it is a Pavlovian response.
Ring the bell, shock the dog. Ring the bell, shock the dog. After a while, just ring the bell, and the dog will still jump without the shock.
Qualified, alright.. right out of a high school psychology textbook.
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Ham
How many qualifications does it take to do this:
Maybe they think it is "group therapy".
Perfect job for the guy voted "most likely to be a thug".
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