If true, and since my public objection to this teaching was one of the reasons that I was thrown out of TWI, do you think I'll be getting an apology and and invitation back anytime soon?
It might happen when you find an emoticon of this guy: with his tongue stuck to a flagpole.
The tape class ceased the moment he resigned, Mr. Ham...I was still in at the time, and for the next several years when they could get enough students, it was taught live by the LC
I heard from anonymous source whose reliability I cannot verify that The Way no longer includes in their Way of Abundance and Power (WayAP) class the segement on the Devil & Eve having sex.
Anyone hear anything about this? And if so, have they repudiated the teaching, or just removed it from the WayAP class?
If true, and since my public objection to this teaching was one of the reasons that I was thrown out of TWI, do you think I'll be getting an apology and and invitation back anytime soon?
It is not in the new video class. It has not been repudiated, it has just been removed from the class.
You are unlikely to get an apology or invitation back, but you wouldn't really be interested in that anyway would you?
It is not in the new video class. It has not been repudiated, it has just been removed from the class.
You are unlikely to get an apology or invitation back, but you wouldn't really be interested in that anyway would you?
An apology might cause me to consider whether or not they've really changed as we hear from time to time. A repudiation might indicate to me that they can admit they were wrong about something.
An apology might cause me to consider whether or not they've really changed as we hear from time to time. A repudiation might indicate to me that they can admit they were wrong about something.
Of course, they can't say they were wrong because they already taught us that if a prophet gives erroneous prophesy, he is not really a prophet(I don't remember what class that's in)
HMMM! Maybe they could just say they were wrong about THAT one and then they would be free to change anything they wanted.
Why assume they have privately repudiated a doctrine because they no longer teach it publicly?
The Way has several doctrines they believe to be true that they do not teach publicly. They are usually too controversial to be public, drawing too much criticism on them, or if their rank and file members knew about them there would be a mass exodus (without the genocide encompassing all first born males).
Seven years ago people learned of their "every woman in the kingdom belongs to the king" doctrine, as well as the physical adultery being ok if you can handle it doctrine (well, many knew it before but this was when everyone who wanted to know could have easy access to the information). A mass exodus occurred -- they played damage control but never repudiated the doctrines.
The furthest they went was one corpse night teaching in 2000 -- a limited private teaching not available to the rank and file members -- in which one sentence was uttered: "adultery is wrong." I didn't hear this teaching, but heard of it first hand from the local corpse who did. He was amazed because it was the first time he had every heard it taught in The Way. I never heard anything taught about adultery. The way it was done, I have no doubt that Harve Platig silently put the word "spiritual" in front of the sentence so he could claim honesty.
The only reason Craig is not still president is because of the outcry of the rank and file members. Without that, he would still be there. He tried to remain, taking a break from teaching publicly. That lasted two weeks. When the outcry from the perceived (and real) hypocritical treatment of him would not go away and Paul Allen ready to expose all their dirty secrets in a public court room, they had no choice but "put him on 'spiritual probation'" -- where he remains to this day. But the doctrine lives on and is very guarded from the public or low-level members.
Craig was an idiot for putting that in their foundational class. A product of his ego wanting to prove that he can do biblical research like VPW (I'd put that research on par with VPW -- VPW just did a better job of selling his crappy research), his addiction to sex with women (plural) besides his wife and his fascination with homosexuality. I'm sure Craig really saw all that in Genesis and he could picture the entire scene in his head -- the whole time thinking God was playing a tape of the actual event for him. It's no different than a lot of other things they believe. But putting it in their foundational class, where the attempt at initial indoctrination is made and allegiance to TWI is either gained or lost, was just plain stupid (and not the only stupid thing he did with that class -- remember the 'in your face' rant on the trinity in the first 20 minutes of the class?). But Craig's ego demanded it go into "his" class.
The Way has taken a lot of heat over this teaching. But the worst part is they have lost many new recruits, along with their money, because they hear of this teaching and (rightly so) choose not to go any further with the group. Removing it from their foundational class is purely a marketing decision. If The Way (or any other group) does not publicly recant a doctrine, there is no reason to assume they do not believe and practice it anymore.
I challenge anyone, especially those who are still active members, to name one doctrine Craig established or continued from VPW The Way has since repudiated since he supposedly left (even that has its doubts). Doctrines may disappear from the public, but unless officially repudiated, they live on in the fantasy world of those who have risen high enough in The Way's pecking order -- having attained enough "spiritual maturity" to handle them.
Why assume they have privately repudiated a doctrine because they no longer teach it publicly?
This is true. The Genesis 3: teaching is no longer publicly taught, but privately they still stand by it.
The furthest they went was one corpse night teaching in 2000 -- a limited private teaching not available to the rank and file members -- in which one sentence was uttered: "adultery is wrong." I didn't hear this teaching, but heard of it first hand from the local corpse who did. He was amazed because it was the first time he had every heard it taught in The Way. I never heard anything taught about adultery. The way it was done, I have no doubt that Harve Platig silently put the word "spiritual" in front of the sentence so he could claim honesty.
I thought this was in a STS teaching, but it may have been Corps Night. I think the whole sentence was, "We have always taught adultery is wrong." I don't recall any previous teaching to this effect, but it to me it always seemed so self evident it could go unstated. It is clearly stated now in the class Living God's Word as a Family.
I challenge anyone, especially those who are still active members, to name one doctrine Craig established or continued from VPW The Way has since repudiated since he supposedly left (even that has its doubts). Doctrines may disappear from the public, but unless officially repudiated, they live on in the fantasy world of those who have risen high enough in The Way's pecking order -- having attained enough "spiritual maturity" to handle them.
Good point. I can't think of any doctrines that have since been repudiated. The class has been cleaned up, toned down a bit, and organized better. But nothing has really changed doctrinally.
I wonder how much the doctrinal positions in the class have been even looked at.
In 2001, when Way Corps were "teaching" WayAP live, they pretty much just stuck to the syllabus, changing only Martindale's personal examples and anecdotes.
At the time I wrote to John Reynolds, presenting him with a long list of things that I thought were doctrinally wrong with the class. I had spent the previous year spending a week or two on each segment, listening to the STS versions of each segment (for 24 weeks the STS topic was a segment of WayAP, and the subject in the fellowships was the same) and coming up with about ten pages of errors, inconsistancies, etc. John called me at home to attempt to quell my concerns. In response to my doctrinal questions, he referred me to T*m H*rr*cks, the region coordinator, who would be "teaching" the class live in a month or two in my city. According to John, Tom should be 'working the Word", to make the class his own in his preparation before teaching.
A few weeks later Tom came to our fellowship and I spent some time with him one-on-one. He addressed none of my concerns. When I told him what John had said his answer was that he didn't need to work the Word, if the Trustees were behind the class, that was good enough for him.
A few weeks later Tom came to our fellowship and I spent some time with him one-on-one. He addressed none of my concerns. When I told him what John had said his answer was that he didn't need to work the Word, if the Trustees were behind the class, that was good enough for him.
How incredibly typical! John couldn't answer you so he passes the buck to the next guy on the tree. He assumes that this guy is actually doing his job and preparing for the class but doesn't tell him about your concerns. So when Tom shows up you basically blind side him and having been unprepared for you he can't even give you a good "reason" why your concerns are not valid. Instead he actually tells you the truth, he's not "working the word" to make the material his own because the Trustees have placed their "seal of approval" on it all so it must be correct. Inferring that MOG that high in the tree don't make mistakes!
Wow...what a load...sometimes I am so embarrassed to have ever been associated with some of these people.
I thought this was in a STS teaching, but it may have been Corps Night. I think the whole sentence was, "We have always taught adultery is wrong." I don't recall any previous teaching to this effect, but it to me it always seemed so self evident it could go unstated. It is clearly stated now in the class Living God's Word as a Family.
I think you're right on the whole sentence. It was originally on a corps night but they may have repeated it later on a STS after I made my exit. When I heard it second-hand from a corps, Paul Allen's lawsuit was still active and they were being careful what they said publicly.
The way the statement stands can only mean Harve was referring to spiritual adultery because The Way never taught anything on physical adultery -- for the obvious reason that everyone at the top was practicing it. Karl Kahler documented that VPW was most likely having an affair as early as the 1950's and was the primary reason he resigned his position in his church to start his own thing later to be called The Way International (got caught having an affair with his church secretary).
Whenever the word came up in a bible verse they were covering in a teaching it was always clarified as meaning spiritual adultery -- including what is in the Ten Commandments. They defined spiritual adultery as God seeing the worship of other gods equivalent to what a prostitute does. Since they did not pay anything when practicing their physical adultery, it must be OK with God (especially since all those O.T. "leaders" got to have multiple wives).
My ex used the self evident excuse for TWI. Problem is, TWI sets a doctrine for anything they think they can control -- finances, state of your house, what's hanging on the walls, etc. It is also known that they knew of affairs occurring within TWI outside of their top circle. Adultery is a fact of life that every married person has to chose or not chose to do. It is a prime target for a doctrine. Leaving it for their members to assume it is wrong based on what they learned prior to joining TWI is contrary to how TWI functions.
I would be very interested in seeing what is stated in Living God's Word as a Family. If anyone has a copy of the class or the syllabus, send it in. We have several people more than qualified to do a critical analysis of it -- more qualified than the people teaching the class.
I have spoken several times to my former fiance, who is still in..He sent me an ecard inviting me into his nest in 2 yrs..I wont try to explain that..I had told him, that "The Way," broke my heart..I never blamed him, he was under the gun so to speak...It was very hard thing for me to talk about, and we spoke about 5 since...
He told me, "The Way," has changed. THey no longer practice Craigs cleaning house practices..geesh, a little late..I didnt say that..
He said, they now put the Bible first in practice...I called headquarter's back in Feb, and asked, If I could order SNS tapes and asked how I should proceed. I told her I didnt go to a fellowship, and she said just to send a check to NK.No ?'s asked...
I picked up on Way words and it made me squirm....I tried to keep my eyes on the direction he was going..I ended up telling him,I would never go back...that the way got so far away from Living in the Love I know..
Your incident reminds me of the guy who beats his wife until, one day, she threatens to blow his cover and leave him.
"Oh, Honey",he says, "I can change and I promise things will be different."
Well, things are better---------for a while-------------and then one day,out of the blue, the woman finds herself searching for her sunglasses to hide her blackened eyes in shame. She is sure it must be her fault because he promised he would change.
TWI is not going to change. They can say,"I promise things will be different." til the cows come home, but those problems are so ingrained in their very fabric of thinking that it's only a matter of time until the "sunglass search" would begin.
I have been out of TWI for a long time but I still remember that whenever adultery was taught, there was almost always a smugness that implied,"If you are REALLY spiritual, you will see that it is referring to "spiritual" adultery and idolotry. What a crock of horse hooey. They tried to make you feel inferior because you saw it for what it actually was!
Even in CF&S, VPW taught that intercourse was a "spiritual "event.(his words) Well,gosh, what woman wouldn't want to share a "spiritual" event with the greatest MOG to have walked the Earth in the past 2,000 years? Did that sound cynical enough?
They are not likely to change because, quite simply, it would negate the doctrine they have spent the last umpteen years drumming into their followers minds.
As to inviting you back: Who knows, maybe your return would be regarded as some kind of spiritual "score". I don't know if that's the case, but think back on the trophy mentality that permeated the organization during your association with them.
I dont have a clue whats going within the Hallowed Halls Of Ivy..
Thanks Waysider....
BTY, it's ironic because leadership voided our engagement..and put me on probation..but never marked and avoided, I wonder if he got permission to email me?
I honestly don't think they'll ever apologize for anything...even though they should.
I guess they've been so concerned about damage control, they can't think of anything else.
Bingo!...They will never apologize because it would be admitting to everyone that they were/are wrong...they already know that we are wise to them and their main concern is to continue the facade with those who stumble along blindly within the walls of twi's make believe world. We are portrayed as the "bad guys" and an apology would undermine that perception to the innies...
It must be difficult to even attempt to pretend that they are God's special ministry when so many of their doctrines are ridiculously wrong and their ethical behavior is so coldhearted and deceitful.
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waysider
If true, and since my public objection to this teaching was one of the reasons that I was thrown out of TWI, do you think I'll be getting an apology and and invitation back anytime soon?
It might happen when you find an emoticon of this guy:
with his tongue stuck to a flagpole.
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1 john 3:1
Oh does that mean we can all go back now? :blink:
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Ham
Maybe they'll save it for "grad" meetings, like the old PFAL segment "the day Jesus Christ died".
Only viewable by those "mature" enough..
Are they actually STILL running video from loy's class? That would suprise me.. but not too much.
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QuietThinker
The tape class ceased the moment he resigned, Mr. Ham...I was still in at the time, and for the next several years when they could get enough students, it was taught live by the LC
~QT
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shortfuse
It is not in the new video class. It has not been repudiated, it has just been removed from the class.
You are unlikely to get an apology or invitation back, but you wouldn't really be interested in that anyway would you?
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Oakspear
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waysider
Of course, they can't say they were wrong because they already taught us that if a prophet gives erroneous prophesy, he is not really a prophet(I don't remember what class that's in)
HMMM! Maybe they could just say they were wrong about THAT one and then they would be free to change anything they wanted.
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Ham
Hmmm. Add a word, change a word..
pretty soon they have eve approaching der debil for a home loan..
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frank123lol
Ham I just about spit all over the computer..too funny...
"Te class" was supposed to be taught by the man of god for our time,he only had the revelation to teach
it as he had made it his own.Or at least that is what he told us in the live ac for grads in 96.
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GT
Why assume they have privately repudiated a doctrine because they no longer teach it publicly?
The Way has several doctrines they believe to be true that they do not teach publicly. They are usually too controversial to be public, drawing too much criticism on them, or if their rank and file members knew about them there would be a mass exodus (without the genocide encompassing all first born males).
Seven years ago people learned of their "every woman in the kingdom belongs to the king" doctrine, as well as the physical adultery being ok if you can handle it doctrine (well, many knew it before but this was when everyone who wanted to know could have easy access to the information). A mass exodus occurred -- they played damage control but never repudiated the doctrines.
The furthest they went was one corpse night teaching in 2000 -- a limited private teaching not available to the rank and file members -- in which one sentence was uttered: "adultery is wrong." I didn't hear this teaching, but heard of it first hand from the local corpse who did. He was amazed because it was the first time he had every heard it taught in The Way. I never heard anything taught about adultery. The way it was done, I have no doubt that Harve Platig silently put the word "spiritual" in front of the sentence so he could claim honesty.
The only reason Craig is not still president is because of the outcry of the rank and file members. Without that, he would still be there. He tried to remain, taking a break from teaching publicly. That lasted two weeks. When the outcry from the perceived (and real) hypocritical treatment of him would not go away and Paul Allen ready to expose all their dirty secrets in a public court room, they had no choice but "put him on 'spiritual probation'" -- where he remains to this day. But the doctrine lives on and is very guarded from the public or low-level members.
Craig was an idiot for putting that in their foundational class. A product of his ego wanting to prove that he can do biblical research like VPW (I'd put that research on par with VPW -- VPW just did a better job of selling his crappy research), his addiction to sex with women (plural) besides his wife and his fascination with homosexuality. I'm sure Craig really saw all that in Genesis and he could picture the entire scene in his head -- the whole time thinking God was playing a tape of the actual event for him. It's no different than a lot of other things they believe. But putting it in their foundational class, where the attempt at initial indoctrination is made and allegiance to TWI is either gained or lost, was just plain stupid (and not the only stupid thing he did with that class -- remember the 'in your face' rant on the trinity in the first 20 minutes of the class?). But Craig's ego demanded it go into "his" class.
The Way has taken a lot of heat over this teaching. But the worst part is they have lost many new recruits, along with their money, because they hear of this teaching and (rightly so) choose not to go any further with the group. Removing it from their foundational class is purely a marketing decision. If The Way (or any other group) does not publicly recant a doctrine, there is no reason to assume they do not believe and practice it anymore.
I challenge anyone, especially those who are still active members, to name one doctrine Craig established or continued from VPW The Way has since repudiated since he supposedly left (even that has its doubts). Doctrines may disappear from the public, but unless officially repudiated, they live on in the fantasy world of those who have risen high enough in The Way's pecking order -- having attained enough "spiritual maturity" to handle them.
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GT
I have no idea why I felt like expunging a rant on TWI this morning?
Strange day....
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shortfuse
This is true. The Genesis 3: teaching is no longer publicly taught, but privately they still stand by it.
I thought this was in a STS teaching, but it may have been Corps Night. I think the whole sentence was, "We have always taught adultery is wrong." I don't recall any previous teaching to this effect, but it to me it always seemed so self evident it could go unstated. It is clearly stated now in the class Living God's Word as a Family.Good point. I can't think of any doctrines that have since been repudiated. The class has been cleaned up, toned down a bit, and organized better. But nothing has really changed doctrinally.
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Oakspear
I wonder how much the doctrinal positions in the class have been even looked at.
In 2001, when Way Corps were "teaching" WayAP live, they pretty much just stuck to the syllabus, changing only Martindale's personal examples and anecdotes.
At the time I wrote to John Reynolds, presenting him with a long list of things that I thought were doctrinally wrong with the class. I had spent the previous year spending a week or two on each segment, listening to the STS versions of each segment (for 24 weeks the STS topic was a segment of WayAP, and the subject in the fellowships was the same) and coming up with about ten pages of errors, inconsistancies, etc. John called me at home to attempt to quell my concerns. In response to my doctrinal questions, he referred me to T*m H*rr*cks, the region coordinator, who would be "teaching" the class live in a month or two in my city. According to John, Tom should be 'working the Word", to make the class his own in his preparation before teaching.
A few weeks later Tom came to our fellowship and I spent some time with him one-on-one. He addressed none of my concerns. When I told him what John had said his answer was that he didn't need to work the Word, if the Trustees were behind the class, that was good enough for him.
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Eyesopen
How incredibly typical! John couldn't answer you so he passes the buck to the next guy on the tree. He assumes that this guy is actually doing his job and preparing for the class but doesn't tell him about your concerns. So when Tom shows up you basically blind side him and having been unprepared for you he can't even give you a good "reason" why your concerns are not valid. Instead he actually tells you the truth, he's not "working the word" to make the material his own because the Trustees have placed their "seal of approval" on it all so it must be correct. Inferring that MOG that high in the tree don't make mistakes!
Wow...what a load...sometimes I am so embarrassed to have ever been associated with some of these people.
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GT
I think you're right on the whole sentence. It was originally on a corps night but they may have repeated it later on a STS after I made my exit. When I heard it second-hand from a corps, Paul Allen's lawsuit was still active and they were being careful what they said publicly.
The way the statement stands can only mean Harve was referring to spiritual adultery because The Way never taught anything on physical adultery -- for the obvious reason that everyone at the top was practicing it. Karl Kahler documented that VPW was most likely having an affair as early as the 1950's and was the primary reason he resigned his position in his church to start his own thing later to be called The Way International (got caught having an affair with his church secretary).
Whenever the word came up in a bible verse they were covering in a teaching it was always clarified as meaning spiritual adultery -- including what is in the Ten Commandments. They defined spiritual adultery as God seeing the worship of other gods equivalent to what a prostitute does. Since they did not pay anything when practicing their physical adultery, it must be OK with God (especially since all those O.T. "leaders" got to have multiple wives).
My ex used the self evident excuse for TWI. Problem is, TWI sets a doctrine for anything they think they can control -- finances, state of your house, what's hanging on the walls, etc. It is also known that they knew of affairs occurring within TWI outside of their top circle. Adultery is a fact of life that every married person has to chose or not chose to do. It is a prime target for a doctrine. Leaving it for their members to assume it is wrong based on what they learned prior to joining TWI is contrary to how TWI functions.
I would be very interested in seeing what is stated in Living God's Word as a Family. If anyone has a copy of the class or the syllabus, send it in. We have several people more than qualified to do a critical analysis of it -- more qualified than the people teaching the class.
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Lori
I honestly don't think they'll ever apologize for anything...even though they should.
I guess they've been so concerned about damage control, they can't think of anything else.
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likeaneagle
I have spoken several times to my former fiance, who is still in..He sent me an ecard inviting me into his nest in 2 yrs..I wont try to explain that..I had told him, that "The Way," broke my heart..I never blamed him, he was under the gun so to speak...It was very hard thing for me to talk about, and we spoke about 5 since...
He told me, "The Way," has changed. THey no longer practice Craigs cleaning house practices..geesh, a little late..I didnt say that..
He said, they now put the Bible first in practice...I called headquarter's back in Feb, and asked, If I could order SNS tapes and asked how I should proceed. I told her I didnt go to a fellowship, and she said just to send a check to NK.No ?'s asked...
I picked up on Way words and it made me squirm....I tried to keep my eyes on the direction he was going..I ended up telling him,I would never go back...that the way got so far away from Living in the Love I know..
Im not a risk taker...even tho I care for him..
nomore nomore
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waysider
Likeaneagle-----
Your incident reminds me of the guy who beats his wife until, one day, she threatens to blow his cover and leave him.
"Oh, Honey",he says, "I can change and I promise things will be different."
Well, things are better---------for a while-------------and then one day,out of the blue, the woman finds herself searching for her sunglasses to hide her blackened eyes in shame. She is sure it must be her fault because he promised he would change.
TWI is not going to change. They can say,"I promise things will be different." til the cows come home, but those problems are so ingrained in their very fabric of thinking that it's only a matter of time until the "sunglass search" would begin.
I have been out of TWI for a long time but I still remember that whenever adultery was taught, there was almost always a smugness that implied,"If you are REALLY spiritual, you will see that it is referring to "spiritual" adultery and idolotry. What a crock of horse hooey. They tried to make you feel inferior because you saw it for what it actually was!
Even in CF&S, VPW taught that intercourse was a "spiritual "event.(his words) Well,gosh, what woman wouldn't want to share a "spiritual" event with the greatest MOG to have walked the Earth in the past 2,000 years? Did that sound cynical enough?
They are not likely to change because, quite simply, it would negate the doctrine they have spent the last umpteen years drumming into their followers minds.
As to inviting you back: Who knows, maybe your return would be regarded as some kind of spiritual "score". I don't know if that's the case, but think back on the trophy mentality that permeated the organization during your association with them.
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likeaneagle
trophy mentality--how repulsive..
I dont have a clue whats going within the Hallowed Halls Of Ivy..
Thanks Waysider....
BTY, it's ironic because leadership voided our engagement..and put me on probation..but never marked and avoided, I wonder if he got permission to email me?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Bingo!...They will never apologize because it would be admitting to everyone that they were/are wrong...they already know that we are wise to them and their main concern is to continue the facade with those who stumble along blindly within the walls of twi's make believe world. We are portrayed as the "bad guys" and an apology would undermine that perception to the innies...
It must be difficult to even attempt to pretend that they are God's special ministry when so many of their doctrines are ridiculously wrong and their ethical behavior is so coldhearted and deceitful.
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