Silently to yourself, pray in tongues and pray in your own language, similtaneously.
It might seem difficult, at first, but concentrate, a little, and try it.
I wonder if praying this way, gives you double the power, double the results....
Give it a try and let us know whatsha think of it.
Personally, I've never gotten the hang of S.I.T. silently. I can do it, but not without moving my lips. I don't see how you can speak in tongues mentally, since there's no physical action. That, in my opinion does border on "faking it" because you're intruding on God's territory. Once your mind is actively involved, you're notreally speaking by the spirt,imo.
Long before I got into the Word it slowly became clear to me that all internal linguistic thought involved micro speech movements, like moving the lips, throat, or tongue.
Can you speak in English silently? When you do, very careful self observation will reveal micro movement.
In my associations with brain scientists during the 90's this same idea seemed to prevail.
Silent SIT utilizes the same mechanics of speech as SIT out loud, it's just very tiny actual movement of the muscles involved.
I have found that I cannot silently speak English or SIT without such extremely small muscle action. I'm talking about so small that no one else can see it.
We were taught that the mind IS INDEED involved in genuine SIT in that we control the ON/OFF switch, the FAST/SLOW switch, and the LOUD/SOFT switch. The only area our mind should not be involved in is WHAT is said. When WHAT is said is not understood by our internal English editor, then we have sufficiently disengaged our mind. It?s the MEANING of what is said that our mind is not involved in.
God is bigger than the doubts involving fakery that our adversary tries to use in discouraging us.
It functions faster than you can percieve. It is not possible to have two of the same thoughts at the same time. Plus as Mike said, even "silently" talking to yourself causes small muscle movements in the throat and mouth.
What you are probably doing is waht I used to do. It was not saying something at the same time...(SIT and with understanding)...it is alternating speach at a rate that is barely noticable to you. There are breaks in normal speach patterns and it takes our brains very very little time to think of a word or sentence. Much faster than you can speak it. That alone allows all kinds of time for you (and your brain...as if they are different) to SIT in yor head and to pray normaly at the "same time". Not to mention the fact that you don't have to think about the "words" you are saying when you SIT you just make the sounds.
I can not find the Bible where I have the information dispayed. It was a newspaper clipping I taped to the first page of Genesis. I will quote the gist from memory as best I can. (the clipping , not Genesis :P-->) The clipping came from the science page of The Orlando Sentinal in '88. It went something like this:
..."The encoded genetic information needed to make an ordinary field mouse would just about fill all the editions of The Encyclopedia Britannica published since 1768."
Here are all the editions of the aformentioned quote.
Edition history
Edition Published Size
1st 1768-1771 3 vol.
2nd 1777-1784 10 vol.
3rd 1788-1797, 1801 sup. 18 vol. + 2 sup.
4th 1801-1809 20 vol.
5th 1815 20 vol.
6th 1820-1823, 1815-1824 sup. 20 vol. + 2 sup.
7th 1830-1842 21 vol.
8th 1852-1860 21 vol. + index
9th 1870-1890 24 vol. + index. (1)
10th 1902-1903 9th ed. + 9 sup. (2)
11th 1910-1911 29 vol. (3)
12th 1921-1922 11th ed. + 3 sup.
13th 1926 11th ed.+ 6 sup.
14th 1929-1973 24 vol.
15th 1974-1984 28 vol.
16th 1985- 32 vol.
vol. = volume, sup. = supplement
That is 352 volumnes in 16 editions. That is quite a lot of information needed just to build an ordinary field mouse. Just imagine what it takes to build a human brain. imho, We have not even begun to fathom the human brain. There has got to be more than meets the 'eye' rather blaming The Devil for extra sensory perceptions and praising God while speaking in tongues (and the 10 or 11 other benefits this gift/manifestation and not counting the other 8 g/m's and their various links to SIT like a cluster of grapes.) Is there a central nervous system in that cluster of grapes?
Certainly to be able to walk on the water would require no more a special effort than SIT, unless they are both just "special effects". But I suppose some have longer suits than me to walk on the water.
So that is what it takes to build an ordinary grey field mouse that speaks Esperanto.
[This message was edited by pawtucket on January 16, 2004 at 19:25.]
As an exercise in taking the cake and eating it too, I?d like to address the idea of fakery of SIT and TIP again. It?s been a long time since I conducted an excellors session, and in recent days I?ve remembered a little more in how I used to help people get around perceived or actual fakery.
Four days ago on page 7 you objected to my help by posting ?Wow. Holy arrogant. I don't need your help! I'm fine. You don't know me, what my beliefs are or anything else about me...?
You say I shocked you with my non-acceptance at face value of your claims of fakery. I too am shocked in this context, since all my previous discussions on these items in those excellors sessions involved people who really wanted to not be faking it. It shocks me to see such great desire on your part to establish the fakery you think you did in juxtaposition to the desires I had and saw in people decades ago.
***
You wrote: ? It took alot for me to say that because it was admitting that I lived a lie for many many years. Now you're idea of helping me is to do the very thing you accuse me of: you're trying to kill MY beliefs and place that lie right back on my shoulders.?
No. I?m trying to show you (and others here) that your IMPRESSION of it being a lie or fakery MAY not have been totally correct.
I?m trying to assure you (and others) that although we WERE subjected to a lot of garbage, there was ALSO a lot of good stuff going on. Separating truth from error is what PFAL promised us, and I think it?s working for me on this topic. This should be good news that you weren?t a total victim of the adversary?s deceit, but that both the True God and the false god were engaged in a struggle over us. God will eventually win this, but why delay seeing His benefits? I?m just trying to show you that there was some good in there.
***
You wrote: ?And as far as Vic's "old man nature" goes: I don't know or care if you think there are degrees of sin. But my old ma nature is to have one too many beers and tell the occasional white lie.?
I?m glad for your character successes. You may want to try thinking how you WOULD behave in circumstances of much more extreme pressures applied, and in much more extreme pleasures offered that the adversary can throw at people who are more high priority targets. Remember this poem?
Pray don't find fault with the man
who limps or stumbles along the road
Unless you have worn the shoes he wears,
or struggled beneath his load.
There may be tacks in his shoes that hurt,
though hidden away from view,
Or the burden he bears...placed on your back,
might cause you to stumble too.
Don't sneer at the man who's down today,
unless you have felt the blow
That caused his fall or felt the shame
that only the fallen know.
You may be strong, but still the blows that were his...
if dealt to you,
In the selfsame way at the selfsame time
might cause you to stagger too.
Don't be too harsh with the man who sins
or pelt him with word or stone
Unless you are sure...yea doubly sure
that you have no sins of your own...
For you know...perhaps if the tempters
voice should whisper...as softly to you
As it did to him...when he went astray
could cause you to falter too.
*****
Speaking of remembering, did that AC teaching transcript I posted on Balaam help show how God can SOMETIMES get a genuine prophecy through, even when fakery is deliberately attempted?
*****
Ok, now for the cake taking and eating:
Premeditation is interesting if you look at it closely. I go to a weekly poetry meeting where they have an open mic for any kind of writing style. I can?t do regular poetry, but I try some prose there from time to time. I totally premeditate what I?m going to say most times I stand before that audience. More than memorizing my lines, I write them down and read them into the microphone. I trust this is a higher degree of premeditation than you engaged in.
I have found that on nearly every occasion I am NOT faithful to the script. Sometimes I misread a word or two. Sometimes I misread a point of grammar, which propels me into an unintended tense or case, and then feel I must alter a later section script to match the unintended digression earlier. Sometimes I include a spontaneous digression or joke as it occurs to me.
Total premeditation is hardly possible.
In a twig setting, I know I have sometimes stumbled into premeditation, and then found myself executing that premeditation. Since this lower degree of premeditation is NOT written out, and NOT read from the script when called on, the level of digressions is MUCH higher than I see in my poetry sessions as described above.
It is in these digressions from the premeditation that that God can go to work within those who desire to edify/exhort/comfort, IN SPITE OF the premeditation.
In such digressions, if I ?feel? like saying such-and-such, why not think that it is Christ in me that ?feels? that? This is what I would encourage excellors in those sessions. We can grow into minimizing the premeditation fakery and maximize the God-working-within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Can this ?thinking the best? be overdone? Yes. It sometimes was. But with persistent effort, these worship manifestations can emerge in fluency and purity for those who want it.
You later posted: ?I had a twig leader in the 70s who claimed she raised her ex husband from the dead. He was choking and he turned blue. She prayed over his "dead body". When he didn't rize she pounded his chest, he then puked and woke up. __ It's a miracle!!!! __ Well, it was actually a heimlich maneuver of sorts, but dam if she didn't tell everyone that she raised him from the dead. __ Everyone was so dam blessed that no one questioned it.?
I don?t know what actually happened in that particular incident. You MAY be right that there were no supernatural elements at all, and that the spiritual was read into it by the eagerness of the woman to think that way. People can do this at times.
But so can you, right? You can be reading the mundane into it more than the reality of that particular situation, right? You?re human, right? Have you explored all the possibilities of that incident, or are you jumping on the mundane, just as you accuse that woman of jumping on the spiritual?
Did it ever occur to you that it was revelation God gave to the woman to pound? Did you consider that maybe she didn?t know anything of the heimlich maneuver, and that God inspired her. Maybe her fist hit exactly in phase with the faint internal biological impulses trying to re-start his heart, cough, or vomit, and that her exact timing and strength of pounding was perfect in a miraculous sense. How long did you consider these kind of things? Maybe you are doing on the negative side the same thing you accuse her of doing on the positive.
I say these things to show you that your surety of fakery is baseless. You don?t know for sure what went on in that situation, and you don?t know for sure what went on in those twigs where you engaged in premeditation. You?re just steaming along with the crowd all caught up in a mob mentality.
These things deserve much more thought than you?ve put into it. I challenge you to think it all through from the start. Come back to PFAL and see what you missed.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 15, 2004 at 3:03.]
[This message was edited by Mike on January 15, 2004 at 3:06.]
"It shocks me to see such great desire on your part to establish the fakery you think you did in juxtaposition to the desires I had and saw in people decades ago."
I'm not talking about anything you saw in people years ago. And I really don't care if you believe me. But, unlike you who is using the word "shock" loosely, I was actually stunned that someone (even you) would deny that I was faking it. I don't know how you can say I wasn't because I was. I had no great desire to establish fakery till you decided I wasn't faking it.
"I?m glad for your character successes. You may want to try thinking how you WOULD behave in circumstances of much more extreme pressures applied, and in much more extreme pleasures offered that the adversary can throw at people who are more high priority targets."
File that under "you don't know me". I don't say this to brag but: I am the lead vocalist in a seriously successful band. I play shows for a living, in front of thousands of screaming young women. Groupies offer me all kinds of sex, drugs and similar trappings. I know it's not exactly "Cult Leader" but I face pressure and extreme pleasures like you wouldn't believe. And ,unlike a cult leader, it could be considered 'normal' if I caved in and had me some good cocaine and fancy group sex. But no. I'm married and before I was married I was too aware of addiction, diseases, unwanted pregnancy, etc. I love my wife and wouldn't dream of disrespecting her and I am not interested in becoming an addict, fathering children (outside of my marriage), financing abortions, catching herpes and all that good stuff that Vic couldn't resist. I'm not an alcoholic, I don't use my rock star power to take advantage of young women who want me for all the wrong reasons.
"Total premeditation is hardly possible."
Mike , poetry readings are part of my living. I headline the type readings you referred to. I also have acted in the theater and on film. It's called "memorizing your lines". It's possible.
And as for the woman who raised her ex from "the dead". I never denied that she DID save him and maybe even was inspired by God. I was just making the (side) point that Way people are so eager to be perceived as spiritually "on" that they will believe anything that seems like a miracle. My "surety" of fakery is baseless? No dude. I was faking it, of this I'm sure. How about your insitance of legitimacy? How about you defending anything Way-doctrine related , even in the face of obvious fakery. I never said SIT was fake, I never said being raised from the dead is impossible. But you will believe ANYTHING even if the practitioner says he faked it, even if the man wasn't actually raised from the dead, as long as it jives with Vic's dogma.
We're never going to see eye to eye on this stuff Mike. Just admit that someone , some where, MAY have been faking it. Or at least acknowledge that an actor might be able to memorize some simple lines.
"These things deserve much more thought than you?ve put into it. I challenge you to think it all through from the start. Come back to PFAL and see what you missed."
Oh man, you seriously need to quit talking down to me. You have no idea how much time I have put in thinking about this. Stop assuming. How dare you tell me how much time I have put in! You sound liem all the "clergy" I hold in such low regard. You keep doing that to me, assuming I'm inexperienced ,shooting from the hip, haven't thought it through and need MORE pfal. I took that class, I dunno, a thousand times. I had it memorized. I'm all set with PFAL. Come back to planet earth and see what you've missed, I'll be there to help you.
I challenge you to exist in reality. You need to put more time into life outside of Saint Vic. These things deserve more time than you have put into it.
You wrote: ?I don't know how you can say I wasn't because I was. I had no great desire to establish fakery till you decided I wasn't faking it.?
You failed to read my posts with accuracy. I did NOT say you weren?t faking it. I made no such decision. I merely pointed out that I believe you have very little knowledge to discern the very subtle difference between senses making it up and inspirit action. All the top leaders of the ministry failed at this and I think you did to. Simple exposure to the class video and tapes has proved to be insufficient for all leadership, and that?s why Dr insisted so many times that they master the books.
Over and over again I mentioned these things regarding your fakery as possibilities and in part.
That is was only a possibility means that I was not sure about you in particular, but I know the principle as it applies to a large number of people. That it was in part means that you could have intended to do 100% fakery, but that some of the genuine crept in.
From what you?ve outlined about your life now, and the very specialized skills you may have, I now believe 100% fakery may very well be possible for you NOW. But what about when you were a teen believer? What about the years before Dr died? I?m inclined to believe that the earlier the year, the more likely that a significant percentage of the genuine had ?crept? in there. If you had seriously mastered the books like Dr told us to in 1975, 79, 82, 84, and 1985 you could have increased the genuineness.
I?m not talking down to you any more than all the rest of us, because we ALL blew it in failing to sufficiently master the books, INCLUDING ME.
As for assuming that you don?t have the understanding to separate flesh from spirit, I got that from God and His Word. NONE of us have it! It?s the plight of being born merely body and soul, cut off from spirit. Only with extraordinary efforts can a human being overcome this. Repeating the video class won?t do it. If that could do it someone in top leadership would have gotten the necessary revelation to halt the ministry meltdown. The extraordinary efforts required to be spiritually savvy were told to us all and that was mastering the PFAL writings.
I suggest you can best utilize your skills by coming back to these PFAL books and magazine articles and apply them to help not only yourself, but everyone you know, and then some.
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Tom Strange
all of myseestorEx's tongue words end in vowels... always have... try to explain that!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Lightside
Silently to yourself, pray in tongues and pray in your own language, similtaneously.
It might seem difficult, at first, but concentrate, a little, and try it.
I wonder if praying this way, gives you double the power, double the results....
Give it a try and let us know whatsha think of it.
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George Aar
I can rub my stomach and pat my head at the same time...
geo.
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Oakspear
But George, can you rub your head and pat your stomach at the same time?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Oakspear
Can you raise someone from the dead and bring sight to the blind at the same time?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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ItsStillTheWord
BUT,
Can you pat your head, rub your stomach AND SIT at the same time?
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Georgio Jessio
^ only in my sleep.
Glow-ry!
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Lightside
Can a human think two completely different sets of thoughts at the same time?
Speak in tongues (an unknown tongue) and pray in english (a known tongue) at the same time.
When you do it, it feels like you have two brains.
Please explain this to da simple folk here....
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Tom Strange
boop boop boop... beep beep beep...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Jbarrax
Personally, I've never gotten the hang of S.I.T. silently. I can do it, but not without moving my lips. I don't see how you can speak in tongues mentally, since there's no physical action. That, in my opinion does border on "faking it" because you're intruding on God's territory. Once your mind is actively involved, you're notreally speaking by the spirt,imo.
plink,plink.
my two cents' worth.
Peace
JerryB
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Mike
Jerry,
Long before I got into the Word it slowly became clear to me that all internal linguistic thought involved micro speech movements, like moving the lips, throat, or tongue.
Can you speak in English silently? When you do, very careful self observation will reveal micro movement.
In my associations with brain scientists during the 90's this same idea seemed to prevail.
Silent SIT utilizes the same mechanics of speech as SIT out loud, it's just very tiny actual movement of the muscles involved.
I have found that I cannot silently speak English or SIT without such extremely small muscle action. I'm talking about so small that no one else can see it.
We were taught that the mind IS INDEED involved in genuine SIT in that we control the ON/OFF switch, the FAST/SLOW switch, and the LOUD/SOFT switch. The only area our mind should not be involved in is WHAT is said. When WHAT is said is not understood by our internal English editor, then we have sufficiently disengaged our mind. It?s the MEANING of what is said that our mind is not involved in.
God is bigger than the doubts involving fakery that our adversary tries to use in discouraging us.
I like to take the cake and eat it too.
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lindyhopper
Tried it before Lightside.
Also know a little about the brain.
It functions faster than you can percieve. It is not possible to have two of the same thoughts at the same time. Plus as Mike said, even "silently" talking to yourself causes small muscle movements in the throat and mouth.
What you are probably doing is waht I used to do. It was not saying something at the same time...(SIT and with understanding)...it is alternating speach at a rate that is barely noticable to you. There are breaks in normal speach patterns and it takes our brains very very little time to think of a word or sentence. Much faster than you can speak it. That alone allows all kinds of time for you (and your brain...as if they are different) to SIT in yor head and to pray normaly at the "same time". Not to mention the fact that you don't have to think about the "words" you are saying when you SIT you just make the sounds.
Kind of like Scat. Ever do that you Beatniks?
Very similar, kind of like singing in tounges.
Who's your daddy?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Hiya Todd!!!
__________________________________________________________________ __________
..."how much information does it take to make an ordinary field mouse?..."
Song
__________________________________________________________________ ___________
..."What language?...
...Hey Song, re: the field mouse, are you talking about information as
in from an alphabet of only 4 letters?..."
sirguessalot
__________________________________________________________________ ___________
Hiya Sir Guess,
I can not find the Bible where I have the information dispayed. It was a newspaper clipping I taped to the first page of Genesis. I will quote the gist from memory as best I can. (the clipping , not Genesis
:P-->) The clipping came from the science page of The Orlando Sentinal in '88. It went something like this:
..."The encoded genetic information needed to make an ordinary field mouse would just about fill all the editions of The Encyclopedia Britannica published since 1768."
Here are all the editions of the aformentioned quote.
Edition history
Edition Published Size
1st 1768-1771 3 vol.
2nd 1777-1784 10 vol.
3rd 1788-1797, 1801 sup. 18 vol. + 2 sup.
4th 1801-1809 20 vol.
5th 1815 20 vol.
6th 1820-1823, 1815-1824 sup. 20 vol. + 2 sup.
7th 1830-1842 21 vol.
8th 1852-1860 21 vol. + index
9th 1870-1890 24 vol. + index. (1)
10th 1902-1903 9th ed. + 9 sup. (2)
11th 1910-1911 29 vol. (3)
12th 1921-1922 11th ed. + 3 sup.
13th 1926 11th ed.+ 6 sup.
14th 1929-1973 24 vol.
15th 1974-1984 28 vol.
16th 1985- 32 vol.
vol. = volume, sup. = supplement
That is 352 volumnes in 16 editions. That is quite a lot of information needed just to build an ordinary field mouse. Just imagine what it takes to build a human brain. imho, We have not even begun to fathom the human brain. There has got to be more than meets the 'eye' rather blaming The Devil for extra sensory perceptions and praising God while speaking in tongues (and the 10 or 11 other benefits this gift/manifestation and not counting the other 8 g/m's and their various links to SIT like a cluster of grapes.) Is there a central nervous system in that cluster of grapes?
Certainly to be able to walk on the water would require no more a special effort than SIT, unless they are both just "special effects". But I suppose some have longer suits than me to walk on the water.
So that is what it takes to build an ordinary grey field mouse that speaks Esperanto.
[This message was edited by pawtucket on January 16, 2004 at 19:25.]
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sirguessalot
TOo keWl.
And all that with an alphabet of only 4 letters!
Talk about a tongue on an angel!
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Mike
Georgio Jessio,
As an exercise in taking the cake and eating it too, I?d like to address the idea of fakery of SIT and TIP again. It?s been a long time since I conducted an excellors session, and in recent days I?ve remembered a little more in how I used to help people get around perceived or actual fakery.
Four days ago on page 7 you objected to my help by posting ?Wow. Holy arrogant. I don't need your help! I'm fine. You don't know me, what my beliefs are or anything else about me...?
You say I shocked you with my non-acceptance at face value of your claims of fakery. I too am shocked in this context, since all my previous discussions on these items in those excellors sessions involved people who really wanted to not be faking it. It shocks me to see such great desire on your part to establish the fakery you think you did in juxtaposition to the desires I had and saw in people decades ago.
***
You wrote: ? It took alot for me to say that because it was admitting that I lived a lie for many many years. Now you're idea of helping me is to do the very thing you accuse me of: you're trying to kill MY beliefs and place that lie right back on my shoulders.?
No. I?m trying to show you (and others here) that your IMPRESSION of it being a lie or fakery MAY not have been totally correct.
I?m trying to assure you (and others) that although we WERE subjected to a lot of garbage, there was ALSO a lot of good stuff going on. Separating truth from error is what PFAL promised us, and I think it?s working for me on this topic. This should be good news that you weren?t a total victim of the adversary?s deceit, but that both the True God and the false god were engaged in a struggle over us. God will eventually win this, but why delay seeing His benefits? I?m just trying to show you that there was some good in there.
***
You wrote: ?And as far as Vic's "old man nature" goes: I don't know or care if you think there are degrees of sin. But my old ma nature is to have one too many beers and tell the occasional white lie.?
I?m glad for your character successes. You may want to try thinking how you WOULD behave in circumstances of much more extreme pressures applied, and in much more extreme pleasures offered that the adversary can throw at people who are more high priority targets. Remember this poem?
Pray don't find fault with the man
who limps or stumbles along the road
Unless you have worn the shoes he wears,
or struggled beneath his load.
There may be tacks in his shoes that hurt,
though hidden away from view,
Or the burden he bears...placed on your back,
might cause you to stumble too.
Don't sneer at the man who's down today,
unless you have felt the blow
That caused his fall or felt the shame
that only the fallen know.
You may be strong, but still the blows that were his...
if dealt to you,
In the selfsame way at the selfsame time
might cause you to stagger too.
Don't be too harsh with the man who sins
or pelt him with word or stone
Unless you are sure...yea doubly sure
that you have no sins of your own...
For you know...perhaps if the tempters
voice should whisper...as softly to you
As it did to him...when he went astray
could cause you to falter too.
*****
Speaking of remembering, did that AC teaching transcript I posted on Balaam help show how God can SOMETIMES get a genuine prophecy through, even when fakery is deliberately attempted?
*****
Ok, now for the cake taking and eating:
Premeditation is interesting if you look at it closely. I go to a weekly poetry meeting where they have an open mic for any kind of writing style. I can?t do regular poetry, but I try some prose there from time to time. I totally premeditate what I?m going to say most times I stand before that audience. More than memorizing my lines, I write them down and read them into the microphone. I trust this is a higher degree of premeditation than you engaged in.
I have found that on nearly every occasion I am NOT faithful to the script. Sometimes I misread a word or two. Sometimes I misread a point of grammar, which propels me into an unintended tense or case, and then feel I must alter a later section script to match the unintended digression earlier. Sometimes I include a spontaneous digression or joke as it occurs to me.
Total premeditation is hardly possible.
In a twig setting, I know I have sometimes stumbled into premeditation, and then found myself executing that premeditation. Since this lower degree of premeditation is NOT written out, and NOT read from the script when called on, the level of digressions is MUCH higher than I see in my poetry sessions as described above.
It is in these digressions from the premeditation that that God can go to work within those who desire to edify/exhort/comfort, IN SPITE OF the premeditation.
In such digressions, if I ?feel? like saying such-and-such, why not think that it is Christ in me that ?feels? that? This is what I would encourage excellors in those sessions. We can grow into minimizing the premeditation fakery and maximize the God-working-within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Can this ?thinking the best? be overdone? Yes. It sometimes was. But with persistent effort, these worship manifestations can emerge in fluency and purity for those who want it.
You later posted: ?I had a twig leader in the 70s who claimed she raised her ex husband from the dead. He was choking and he turned blue. She prayed over his "dead body". When he didn't rize she pounded his chest, he then puked and woke up. __ It's a miracle!!!! __ Well, it was actually a heimlich maneuver of sorts, but dam if she didn't tell everyone that she raised him from the dead. __ Everyone was so dam blessed that no one questioned it.?
I don?t know what actually happened in that particular incident. You MAY be right that there were no supernatural elements at all, and that the spiritual was read into it by the eagerness of the woman to think that way. People can do this at times.
But so can you, right? You can be reading the mundane into it more than the reality of that particular situation, right? You?re human, right? Have you explored all the possibilities of that incident, or are you jumping on the mundane, just as you accuse that woman of jumping on the spiritual?
Did it ever occur to you that it was revelation God gave to the woman to pound? Did you consider that maybe she didn?t know anything of the heimlich maneuver, and that God inspired her. Maybe her fist hit exactly in phase with the faint internal biological impulses trying to re-start his heart, cough, or vomit, and that her exact timing and strength of pounding was perfect in a miraculous sense. How long did you consider these kind of things? Maybe you are doing on the negative side the same thing you accuse her of doing on the positive.
I say these things to show you that your surety of fakery is baseless. You don?t know for sure what went on in that situation, and you don?t know for sure what went on in those twigs where you engaged in premeditation. You?re just steaming along with the crowd all caught up in a mob mentality.
These things deserve much more thought than you?ve put into it. I challenge you to think it all through from the start. Come back to PFAL and see what you missed.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 15, 2004 at 3:03.]
[This message was edited by Mike on January 15, 2004 at 3:06.]
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CKnapp3
Tom, your forgot to interpret
:D-->, or was THAT the intpretation?
I don't need no stinkin' crown!
Chuck
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Oakspear
Boy, it sure must be comforting to all of you who faked tongues that you really weren't faking it.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Tom Strange
boop, boop, boop... beep, beep, beep...
keeds, that's NO DICE!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Georgio Jessio
"It shocks me to see such great desire on your part to establish the fakery you think you did in juxtaposition to the desires I had and saw in people decades ago."
I'm not talking about anything you saw in people years ago. And I really don't care if you believe me. But, unlike you who is using the word "shock" loosely, I was actually stunned that someone (even you) would deny that I was faking it. I don't know how you can say I wasn't because I was. I had no great desire to establish fakery till you decided I wasn't faking it.
"I?m glad for your character successes. You may want to try thinking how you WOULD behave in circumstances of much more extreme pressures applied, and in much more extreme pleasures offered that the adversary can throw at people who are more high priority targets."
File that under "you don't know me". I don't say this to brag but: I am the lead vocalist in a seriously successful band. I play shows for a living, in front of thousands of screaming young women. Groupies offer me all kinds of sex, drugs and similar trappings. I know it's not exactly "Cult Leader" but I face pressure and extreme pleasures like you wouldn't believe. And ,unlike a cult leader, it could be considered 'normal' if I caved in and had me some good cocaine and fancy group sex. But no. I'm married and before I was married I was too aware of addiction, diseases, unwanted pregnancy, etc. I love my wife and wouldn't dream of disrespecting her and I am not interested in becoming an addict, fathering children (outside of my marriage), financing abortions, catching herpes and all that good stuff that Vic couldn't resist. I'm not an alcoholic, I don't use my rock star power to take advantage of young women who want me for all the wrong reasons.
"Total premeditation is hardly possible."
Mike , poetry readings are part of my living. I headline the type readings you referred to. I also have acted in the theater and on film. It's called "memorizing your lines". It's possible.
And as for the woman who raised her ex from "the dead". I never denied that she DID save him and maybe even was inspired by God. I was just making the (side) point that Way people are so eager to be perceived as spiritually "on" that they will believe anything that seems like a miracle. My "surety" of fakery is baseless? No dude. I was faking it, of this I'm sure. How about your insitance of legitimacy? How about you defending anything Way-doctrine related , even in the face of obvious fakery. I never said SIT was fake, I never said being raised from the dead is impossible. But you will believe ANYTHING even if the practitioner says he faked it, even if the man wasn't actually raised from the dead, as long as it jives with Vic's dogma.
We're never going to see eye to eye on this stuff Mike. Just admit that someone , some where, MAY have been faking it. Or at least acknowledge that an actor might be able to memorize some simple lines.
"These things deserve much more thought than you?ve put into it. I challenge you to think it all through from the start. Come back to PFAL and see what you missed."
Oh man, you seriously need to quit talking down to me. You have no idea how much time I have put in thinking about this. Stop assuming. How dare you tell me how much time I have put in! You sound liem all the "clergy" I hold in such low regard. You keep doing that to me, assuming I'm inexperienced ,shooting from the hip, haven't thought it through and need MORE pfal. I took that class, I dunno, a thousand times. I had it memorized. I'm all set with PFAL. Come back to planet earth and see what you've missed, I'll be there to help you.
I challenge you to exist in reality. You need to put more time into life outside of Saint Vic. These things deserve more time than you have put into it.
Glow-ry!
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Oakspear
GJ:
Your experience does not fit into Mike's reality, therefore he looks for ways to make it fit.
I had thought that I had heard Mike get as ridiculous as he could get, but his "sermons" to you exceeded my expectations!
Hey, if you ever play Lincoln or Omaha, let me know.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Mike
Georgio,
You wrote: ?I don't know how you can say I wasn't because I was. I had no great desire to establish fakery till you decided I wasn't faking it.?
You failed to read my posts with accuracy. I did NOT say you weren?t faking it. I made no such decision. I merely pointed out that I believe you have very little knowledge to discern the very subtle difference between senses making it up and inspirit action. All the top leaders of the ministry failed at this and I think you did to. Simple exposure to the class video and tapes has proved to be insufficient for all leadership, and that?s why Dr insisted so many times that they master the books.
Over and over again I mentioned these things regarding your fakery as possibilities and in part.
That is was only a possibility means that I was not sure about you in particular, but I know the principle as it applies to a large number of people. That it was in part means that you could have intended to do 100% fakery, but that some of the genuine crept in.
From what you?ve outlined about your life now, and the very specialized skills you may have, I now believe 100% fakery may very well be possible for you NOW. But what about when you were a teen believer? What about the years before Dr died? I?m inclined to believe that the earlier the year, the more likely that a significant percentage of the genuine had ?crept? in there. If you had seriously mastered the books like Dr told us to in 1975, 79, 82, 84, and 1985 you could have increased the genuineness.
I?m not talking down to you any more than all the rest of us, because we ALL blew it in failing to sufficiently master the books, INCLUDING ME.
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Georgio Jessio
"I merely pointed out that I believe you have very little knowledge to
discern the very subtle difference"
Well thank goodness you weren't assuming things about me an my knowledge.
News Flash: Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean that they
don't know what they're talking about. Even if you think my exposure to
"dr's" tapes was simple. Funny I happen to think my exposure to those tapes
was beyond simple. I studied that .... for 20 years. That's practically
complex. Especially considering Vic was my buddy and he often taught me
directly.
Finally: believe it or not, I have POSSESSED the uncanny ability to
memorize, yeah even RETEMORIZE, scripture, lines and writings since I was a
teen. I am a MAGICAL entity in that WAY. I am so LUCKY to be so CREATIVE.
What a COINCIDENCE! I must have been a thespian in a PREVIOUS LIFE. Either
that or I FAKED IT without God letting his message CREEP in. I hate to use
GOD and CREEP in the same sentence but that's what happens when you're
throughly (thru and thru and thru) off the word, marked & avoided and
tripped out.
Careful, it's contagious
;)-->
Glow-ry!
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Mike
Georgio Jessio,
.
.
.
UNCLE!
.
.
.
I give up.
I believe you faked it.
.
.
.
.
.
As for assuming that you don?t have the understanding to separate flesh from spirit, I got that from God and His Word. NONE of us have it! It?s the plight of being born merely body and soul, cut off from spirit. Only with extraordinary efforts can a human being overcome this. Repeating the video class won?t do it. If that could do it someone in top leadership would have gotten the necessary revelation to halt the ministry meltdown. The extraordinary efforts required to be spiritually savvy were told to us all and that was mastering the PFAL writings.
I suggest you can best utilize your skills by coming back to these PFAL books and magazine articles and apply them to help not only yourself, but everyone you know, and then some.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I just dig Zen & Rok N Roll... oh yeah and Celtic tunes...
and one day... I'm gonna walk on that water...
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