Your question = ?if a fool is someone who believes everything he hears, what do you call someone who believes NOTHING he hears??
My answer = I call them a fool, just like the other fool, for avoiding ?wise believing,? which is the safe balance between believing NOTHING he hears and believing ALL that he hears.
Ok Mike, point well taken. :)--> However remember also, a picture (or anything that can be seen) is worth 1000 words.
I other words, you can hear, but unless you see, you have no real basis to believe. If I were to tell you Coca Cola™ is actually clear and not dark, would you just believe me? Probably not. But if you were to see a glass of clear liquid only to have it taste like Coke, then you would have a basis to believe. (Incidently, Coke is in fact clear. The reason it's dark colored is because they use caramel coloring.)
In conclusion which is better? To believe everything, or to believe nothing, pending of course some piece of evidence or proof?
Also just a little food for thought. Is it better to worship a god, only to have it be the devil, or is it better to avoid all worship? I would think a good God would be very understanding and would have you not worship at all rather than worship what you think is God only for it to be something evil.
Furthermore, to believe what you haven't seen is definately not wise believing since it's greatly possible the concept could be a lie. If I were to say doo-doo is good to eat, would you eat it? (presuming you don't know what doo-doo is of course).
Chuck
[This message was edited by CKnapp3 on January 09, 2004 at 23:23.]
I truely at one time beleived in the manifestation of SIT. Here's my 'faith proof' it works. This single mom, a pfal grad in my twig, was having trouble with her child sleeping at night. The child would just cry and cry and cry himself to sleep. She called and asked me over one evening to hear this temper of a child in the crib. I was the twig co ya know. Oh the child would cry alright. I asked her if it would be okay to enter the childs room . She agreed. I just stood over the crib and silently spoke in tongues. Within just a few minutes the child was asleep. I exited the room and she inquired what happened. I told her that SIT is intercession for the saints and rest for the soul and that since her child was not yet old enough to believe, he was covered under her protection. She called me back several evenings to repeat the aformentioned intevention of intersesssion because when she tried what I did, it did not work for her, but worked for me and the child I was "ministering" to via sit. I told her, "Please take you son to the pediatrician." (THIRD AID) Come to find out, the child had cholic. After proper medical remedy he was able to go to sleep on his own.
Now, really JerryB., you actually think that experience is proof of sit? Man that's a flip of the coin and no proof at all. Heads its proof, tails its not; or next time the flip, tails its proof, heads it not. The child simply cried itself to sleep and I just happen to be there sit. Or flip the coin, I just simply sit while the child cried itself to sleep. Or flip the coin again...
Apples and oranges Steve. The verses and examples I posted dealt with a person hearing the manifestation of speaking in tongues in the context of the preaching of the gospel; like your first example of the evangelist and the reactions of the crowd. Your experience with the child is completely different. The mother didn't hear you speaking in tongues and the benefit of intercession is not a sign to unbelievers, it's intercession. In the example you mentinoed, the benefit was that you were able to tell her what to do for the child.
I have been told repeatedly that when I intercede for my friend, it works. So he always asks me to pray for specific things. I never do. I just speak in tongues for him. Is that proof that I have holy spirit, etc. No, it's intercession. The benefit of intercession is answered prayer.
But Mike, you HAVE no data. At least you've yet to share any. Just suppositions, statements, anecdotes but no data.
If there were real, verifiable, repeatable evidence of any spiritual matters, then skeptics would believe in them as well.
There is not.
geo.
Don't be too trusting in the fairmindedness of "skeptics" George. Scientists are lauded as objective observers of empirical evidence, but many of them have core beliefs that color their approach to evidence. Einstein himself admitted to this. His calculations lead him to the conclusion that the universe must have had a beginning, but he refused to publish his findings because it would lend credence to the idea that God had created it. (That's why it was another physicist who is credited with the Big Bang Theory, although Albert actually thought of it first.)
Gasp! What heresy! Well, to science, it is heresy and the rejection of this basic belief colors the endeavors of physicists, biologist, geneticists and other allegedly objective researchers.
So to assume that skeptic's reluctance to embrace an idea means that there's not enough evidence for it, is naive.
But I think Georgio JesioweOweO wins the star on the refrigorator.
I think another Geo said it the best though...
Think about it. Almighty God concocts a bizarre way of talking to Himself to tell Himself how great He is. This doesn't seem a little odd to you? Similar but better than the way I put it which was that God tells your spirit, which tells your mind, what to say back to God. Tre Bizarre for sure.
Could we address some of these very valid questions?
Okay Lindy, I'll take a stab at it. I've always thought of speaking in tongues as a form of The Word of God. Jesus said "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life" (John 6:63 I think). If this is true, then it follows, as noted in Hebrews, that the Word of God itself has spiritual power.
If speaking in tongues is literally speaking by the spirit of God, and is accurately described as the outflowing of rivers of LIVING waters, then it is literally speaking the Word of God. Therefore, it too is quick and powerful, it is spirit and life. So when you speak in tongues, you are gushign forth spiritual power and life into the world. I think God would appreciate that, don't you? Especially since the world has lots and lots of darkness in it.
You are also engaged in a pure spiritual communion with God because you are the fountain by which this river of living water is being poured into the world.
Or, to put it in a manner Todd may appreciate; you are acting as a doorway from the God's dimension of light and love into this lower dimension where darkness and corruption exist. Some of the benefits of speaking in tongues and the related miracles (including Lightside's healing of his sister) may be the result of some willing believer opening a door through which God pours pure light and power. (Of course VP taught that we are not "channels" or conduits, as spiritualists are for daimon and daimonion, but since S.I.T. is voluntary and can be started and stopped at will, I don't see a problem with that aspect of it.)
I admit that I faked SIT and prophecy for over 20 years, cuz I didn't want to be reproved for not doing it, and after a while I thought everyone else was faking it too.
Then I thought some were acutally doing it like my husband, he was not repetitive at all and his tongue was so beautiful it brought me to tears some times.
I never told anyone in that 20 years that I faked it. I finally told my hubby about 6 months ago.
Any way hubby was getting tapes from an ex-way person (off-shoot)?
And one day a couple of months ago I listened to one of his teachings about SIT and all of a sudden towards the end of the teaching I really started SIT for the first time in my life.
It was totally different from the one I faked and was/is very beautiful tongue.
When my hubby heard it he broke down and cryed and so did I.
I do it now on a regular basis. But I haven't yet done interpritation or prophecy yet, maybe someday I will, but I'm patient and will wait til that day comes.
That's a beautiful story Dovie. And it makes a very important point. Juat because someone fakes speaking in tongues doesn't mean they CAN'T do it. It may be more of an indictment of the shallowness of the ministry and the depths to which it fell than of the reality of speaking in tongues.
I say again, just because you faked it doesn't mean you CAN'T do it. Maybe some of you fakers should ask God to work with your heart and faith and show you how it's supposed to be done. I don't mean that to sound demeaning. I just want to encourage you to give it another shot.
You wrote: ?I have been thru the very same thing, except I was faking it. I took out a pen and a concordance and found some heavy stuff to say. I wanted to look cool. I wanted to fit in. I wanted my mother to think I was spiritual.?
You don?t think God could guide you in your concordance search?
Now that's just silly. Composing a message using a concordance is not speaking by inspiration. Just because some of these fine folks faked it and were not discovered doesn't mean the manifestations are fake, as Wytduv's experience indicates. To try to convince someone that God inspired their premeditated message is absurd.
quote:hat?s all we, more sincere, operators of TIP were ever able to do. We ALL had LOTS of repetition, and LOTS of prepared crutch phrases mixed in with our messages from or for God.
Speak for yourself sir. That's a little presumptuous don't you think?
"Oh, by the way, for you doubting Thomass's, Gods rule: You believe first and than you see!!!"
Yeah man , I believed. I really did. I believed to the point that I thought there was something wrong with me.
Mike,
I don't know what to tell you. I made a conscious effort to fake it. I have never thought for a minute that anyone would try to tell me I wasn't faking it. I figured some would laugh, some would say I did an evil thing, some would feel sorry for me. But you, my man Mike, have taken the cake for most unexpected reply.
I have seen you say some ridiculous things, defend VPW (who I say was a scum bag, I have plenty of first hand experience that you would refuse to believe), I've seen you refute the abuse claims, I've seen you defend a ministry built on lies (it didn't snow that day in July, he didn't invent the hook shot, conceive McDonalds or ever receive a doctorate). I've seen you blame others for being "out of fellowship" and not listening to VPW when the king of being "out of fellowship" was Old Vic himself.
I can take all that. I think it's twisted, but I can accept your respect for Vic. If you think he was right, great.
But you trying to tell me I wasn't faking it is the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said to me in my life. Straight up. And I've heard some whoppers, I grew up in TWI ,after all! I was told, by Vic, that non believing young ladies were only good for sex, not relationships. I over heard your man Vic tell my mother that "sex falls under the category of need" and "The man of God can meet your needs". I've heard some really weird stuff. I heard my Limb Coordinator say he had to cast out so many spirits from the previous Limb Coordinator that when he did, the man levitated! (total bs according to witnesses he just went in, yelled at him and threw him out)
I am not exaggerating. You saying I wasn't faking it is truly most ridiculous thing anyone has ever told me. I didn't think anything I heard while I was "in" could be topped, then along came Mike.
Congradu freakin lations.
I don't know why I am asking this but you said: So far you are not convincing me very well. Do you remember Dr teaching on Balaam in the Advanced Class?
Two questions: 1. what could I ever say that would convince you I was faking it? Seriously.
2. I remember the Advance Class. Asking me if I remember what Vic (why DO you call him Dr? I want to be called Captain, is that all it takes?) said about Balaam is like asking me if I remember what he said about the bible in PFAL. Can you be more vague? Please, refresh my memory.
"And one day a couple of months ago I listened to one of his teachings about SIT and all of a sudden towards the end of the teaching I really started SIT for the first time in my life.
It was totally different from the one I faked and was/is very beautiful tongue. When my hubby heard it he broke down and cryed and so did I. I do it now on a regular basis. But I haven't yet done interpritation or prophecy yet, maybe someday I will, but I'm patient and will wait til that day comes."
Wow that is so neat.
I had always understood that "Reason for Speaking in Tongues" number eleven (Mark 16:17 a sign to un-beleivers) was dealing with those un-beleiving beleivers.
A person has been going to fellowships and has been doing stuff, but they still dont 'really' believe that they are really truly saved and righteous and sanctified and redeemed. Speaking in tongues (which they think they are faking) (or which they think is gibberish) will one day finally show them that it is real.
I thought that mine was gibberish. I never tried to repeat any phrases, and I never memorized any verses to say. But I did think that it was not possible for 'me' to do it.
Once while riding my bike on a quick road-trip (Virginia to california to washington to connnecticut), I was SIT'ing a lot while driving, and I decided to try 'influencing' it's sound. I found that I could SIT and sound just like my barracks room-mate's tongue (Rick Horncohl), and then the next day I found that I could make SIT that sounded just like chinese. I was so happy, for a while. But then later I got depressed. Because I knew I was 'faking'. Some months later I was in a twig and used that 'chinese' sounding 'tongue' while doing a tongues with interpretation. Others in the fellowship were very excited and were able to provide the word-for-word translation of what I had said in that 'chinese' tongue. They said that I spoke Mandarin with a 'northern' accent.
This incident finally convinced me that Speaking-in-tongues was real and that I was doing it, I am born again and G-d does like me.
I think that in your case, your 'faking' it was all a part of your journey to finally find your beleif that you are born again. You are my sister in Christ.
You wrote: ?I other words, you can hear, but unless you see, you have no real basis to believe.?
Thomas was reproved for so heavily relying on what he saw.
****
You wrote: ? If I were to tell you Coca Cola™ is actually clear and not dark, would you just believe me? Probably not.?
If you had a previously established track record of saying many right on things, and the stakes weren?t too high for being wrong, I may very well experimentally ?believe? or mentally accept your assertion.
Actually, with this one particular example, I think I DO believe you, since I?ve seen other soft drinks that can be clear. Plus I?ve often seen ingredient labels with caramel coloring mentioned. The more small indirect ?proofs? like this accumulate the more I?m inclined to jump up on that right rail of believing you all the way, assuming these waters have no sharks.
****
You wrote: ?In conclusion which is better? To believe everything, or to believe nothing, pending of course some piece of evidence or proof??
Why the stark extremes? Which is better? Neither, if you insist on the extremes of ?everything? versus ?nothing.?
I find that too many times people resort to extremes in their thinking, stark black and white, and seem to loose track of all the shades of gray in between. This will come up again in my response to other posters below.
****
You wrote: ?Also just a little food for thought. Is it better to worship a god, only to have it be the devil, or is it better to avoid all worship? I would think a good God would be very understanding and would have you not worship at all rather than worship what you think is God only for it to be something evil.?
I agree, but I think you?re resorting to a worldly definition of ?worship? while we were taught that SIT is the only true worship. I know what you mean though, and agree that God can help correct the counterfeit items in our mental processes to come into alignment with His Word and will.
Without studying them closely, I thought that your three posts prior to the one addressed to me were quite good.
I especially liked your last comment to wyteduv58, where you wrote: ?That's a beautiful story Dovie. And it makes a very important point. Juat because someone fakes speaking in tongues doesn't mean they CAN'T do it. It may be more of an indictment of the shallowness of the ministry and the depths to which it fell than of the reality of speaking in tongues. __ I say again, just because you faked it doesn't mean you CAN'T do it. Maybe some of you fakers should ask God to work with your heart and faith and show you how it's supposed to be done. I don't mean that to sound demeaning. I just want to encourage you to give it another shot.?
Excellent! This is the same heart I put into my response to Georgio.
****
Regarding that post you wrote to me: ?Now that's just silly. Composing a message using a concordance is not speaking by inspiration.?
I?d say here that you are over abbreviating what I said. Maybe I should have more explicit. I tried to by including these qualifiers, now placed in ALL-CAPS:
?It sounds like you must have done this a lot, or your Interpretation would be very repetitive, and a smart person like you would know that total repetition would not impress your mother. So, you must have eventually gotten a STOREHOUSE OF IDEAS FROM THIS PROCESS BUILT UP INSIDE YOUR HEAD, and all flowing in harmony with the Word and not at cross purposes. __ On ONE DAY you MAY have decided at the last second to do a previously prepared message, instead of the most recent preparation. Or you MAY have altered your prep at the last second slightly. Or added in SOME other stuff that you may have heard someone else utter long before that stuck. Or a RECENTLY REMEMBERED BIBLE VERSE OR PHRASE. __ On THOSE occasions, IF you had even the slightest inclination to bless or help others in love, such a last second decision COULD HAVE BEEN inspiration! ON THOSE OCCASIONS you may have uttered, like the crooked prophet Balaam?s beautiful prophecy, SOME perfect messages from God. __ In other words, your mental faking it MAY have been MIXED with genuine inspired utterances. That?s all we, more sincere, operators of TIP were ever able to do. We all had lots of repetition, and lots of prepared crutch phrases mixed in with our messages from or for God.?
It wasn?t just the concordance use I was bringing to the table, even though most do contain a line of scripture verse, and the rest of the verse may be stored in mind. Reading a concordance is a LITTLE like flipping through a Bible version. Sure writing a few passages down and premeditating their use later at twig isn?t spiritual, but I included in my post more than just concordant use like the storehouse of verses in memory.
Now inspiration involves God taking those thoughts and memories whose gist lines up with the Word and He points out or brings to mind which ones should be uttered at the decent and in order time at twig. Inspiration is not revelation. If the portions of God?s Word are NOT in memory (whether sourced from gold edged leather KJVs, or concordances, or hearing someone read a Bible, or hearing someone manifest right before it?s your turn...the source doesn?t matter here) if not in memory, then God can?t inspire it. If God whispers something it?s revelation, not inspiration.
Another qualifier in my post to Georgio is the GRAY nature of what I am proposing he consider (much like your quoted paragraph to Dovey above) the possibility that SOME (not all) of his ?fakery? was actually genuine. I really believe this was the case with many grads, and when I talked to them this way it helped them to press on and try again in spite of their FEELINGS of fakery.
Another ALL-CAPS qualifier in my self quote above is the use of words like
may, may, could have been, may. I?m thinking the best case scenario. I?d rather think that way and have not been at all convinced by Georgio that his assessment of his own activity is accurate. I?ve seen too many people THINK something was fakery, and just bit the bullet and continued on the best they could to bless. I?ve examined this very situation so many times and saw that people were not able to properly evaluate their own internal workings because SOME of them were spiritual. We did do some spiritual things, but our understanding was mostly 5-senses at best. Add to that the lack of mastery we all suffered regarding the distilled teachings placed in the PFAL books and even that 5-senses understanding of those internal activities looks mighty untrustworthy in my book.
****
You wrote: ?To try to convince someone that God inspired their premeditated message is absurd.?
I just don?t think his premeditation was all that was going on.
****
You then quoted me : ?that?s all we, more sincere, operators of TIP were ever able to do. We ALL had LOTS of repetition, and LOTS of prepared crutch phrases mixed in with our messages from or for God.?
You then commented: ?Speak for yourself sir. That's a little presumptuous don't you think??
Yes. It was a little heavy handed, but it seems roughly accurate, especially as time wore on into the mid 80?s. As we all drifted away from what we were taught and what was put into writing I sincerely think that my use of the word "all" becomes more and more accurate. I do see exceptions to the contrary, but not trends.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 10, 2004 at 3:25.]
Sorry I somewhat answered your post in my response to Jerry. I?ll try to add more now to your post.
?Oh, by the way, for you doubting Thomass's, Gods rule: You believe first and than you see!!! __ Yeah man , I believed. I really did. I believed to the point that I thought there was something wrong with me.?
Well we got to be wise in our believing. I know I was not always so wise in what I chose to believe. Sometimes it wasn?t God?s Word, but some slightly (or not so slightly) inaccurate form of the Word. If it?s the Word we believe, we will eventually see. But if it?s really believing, then circumstances (like not seeing for a long time or the ministry melting down) will not cause it to stop. Mental assent, a good counterfeit of believing, poops out when challenged sufficiently.
****
You wrote: ?Mike, I don't know what to tell you. I made a conscious effort to fake it. I have never thought for a minute that anyone would try to tell me I wasn't faking it. I figured some would laugh, some would say I did an evil thing, some would feel sorry for me. But you, my man Mike, have taken the cake for most unexpected reply.?
Try reading it again then. Don?t trust your first take to be accurate. Taking the cake can be a distraction that hides many details.
****
You wrote: ?I have seen you say some ridiculous things, defend VPW (who I say was a scum bag, I have plenty of first hand experience that you would refuse to believe)...?
I know that Dr had an old man nature that stunk (so does ours) and I also know that Dr was a very powerful intellect (sorry Zix), and that he was in a very powerful position, so it doesn?t surprise me that his old man COULD stink much more powerfully than ours at times. But then again, his ability to bless us was quite powerful too. I also know that on SOME occasions, his discipline of LEADERS may have been totally right on with God, but the reception of it by immature, insolent, and arrogant students was misunderstood and thought to be evil when it wasn?t. Yes, he also had sin in his life, but that has never stopped God from continuing His work with anyone, Dr/you/me, who comes back and restores fellowship.
****
You wrote: ?I've seen you refute the abuse claims...?
That?s an inaccurate observation. I don?t refute them, I ignore them WHEN it comes to my decision to master the PFAL books. I pay attention to them when I can help anyone who was abused, but I administer my help according to MY rules, and do not cater to demands like yours to not promote PFAL mastery to others. I separate Dr?s sin from the writings God gave him by revelation JUST LIKE I separate David and his abuse of Uriah (murder) from the revelation writings God gave him.
****
You wrote: ?I've seen you defend a ministry built on lies...?
It was NOT built on lies. Lies came in and contaminated a lot of things, especially by the mid 80?s. Your present impressions of it are built on lies and the kind of facts that God tells us to not dwell on.
****
You wrote: ?(it didn't snow that day in July, he didn't invent the hook shot, conceive McDonalds or ever receive a doctorate)?
The ministry was not built on these things. It was October, not July, but still that was not a building block, and it DID snow. Some very interesting things were posted on that snow AND his doctorate here this past year that I liked a lot. maybe I?ll re-post them.
Who cares about the hook shot or McDonalds? I don?t, so I?m not going to bother to search out where these TVTs came from.
The ministry was built on what God taught Dr and he taught us ESPECIALLY in book and magazine form.
*****
You wrote: ?I've seen you blame others for being "out of fellowship" and not listening to VPW when the king of being "out of fellowship" was Old Vic himself.?
Many things went wrong when we got out of alignment. Same with Dr because the Word says he had sin too. That still doesn?t invalidate God?s revelations to him. David was much more out of fellowship with his murder, AND he suffered consequences, but that STILL didn?t prevent God from giving him revelation.
If you think Dr?s sin prevented him from getting valid revelation, then be consistent and rip Psalms out of your Bible. Better include Solomon?s work too because he was worse.
You wrote: ?But you trying to tell me I wasn't faking it is the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said to me in my life. Straight up.?
Calm down and read it again. There?s no way you could have absorbed the details while in the state you describe.
****
You wrote: ?Two questions: 1. what could I ever say that would convince you I was faking it? Seriously. __ 2. I remember the Advance Class. Asking me if I remember what Vic ... said about Balaam is like asking me if I remember what he said about the bible in PFAL. Can you be more vague? Please, refresh my memory.?
(1.) Look at my response to JerryB. I qualified with MAYBE and SOME a lot. I don?t care if you were faking it 100% or 70% or 2% but I do see the POSSIBILITY that some wasn?t. If you don?t want to take it in the light of what Dovey said, and what was said to her by me and Jerry and Galen, then you probably don?t WANT to get your fakery percentage to a lower than 1% level, and my attempt to help you will not work. I?d like to see you consider that some was right some of the time and that you can improve on it, even radically improve on it like Dovey reported happened for her.
A lot of WHY I was so bold as to stand up to your statement of ?I faked it? is because of it?s affect on others. I think you wanted it to help kill their belief that they had it right. Tearing down believing in PFAL is par for the course here, and your tone seemed to say that you were trying to inject the same doubts in others.
I thank God I had the opportunity to type out all I did to you even if it doesn?t help you seek better operation of the manifestations. Many others feel the same way you do (I always saw them in my excellors sessions) so by offering my help to you, they overheard and can now start dealing with whatever percentage of fakery they think they inject or actually inject into their operations.
And now that I?ve gotten your attention in a MOST effective and memorable way, maybe next year you?ll come around and try to get it better.
Thank you for allowing me this soapbox.
****
(2) Here?s your answer to Dr?s teaching on Balaam:
ADVANCED CLASS TRANSCRIPTIONS
Session 20
BIBLICAL ILLUSTRATIONS OF REVELATION (Part-6 Num. 22-24)
I'd like for you to take your Bibles and, we're still dealing with
Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom, and again I want to show you
another great record from God's Word. I do not know of anything that is
more accurate to teach people the operation of manifestations than just
read the Word with you, just share the Word. 'Cause you're going to
have to see all of these things in the Word so you can inculcate them in
your life.
Numbers twenty two has a real interesting story, a lot of the
people think it ought to be developed sometime and put on T.V. or
somethin', I donno. It's another one of the great records in God's Word
that shows you the greatness of God and the greatness of the revelation.
'Cause I'm going to read with you and show you from the record; a man,
in my opinion, was crookeder than a dog's hind leg. Heh, heh, heh - ah,
a man who was just totally unworthy of receiving revelation, and yet,
somehow or other, when that revelation hit, he had enough sense left
sometime to listen to it. And I-I just want you to see the greatness of
it. So, I think the best thing to do is begin reading in chapter twenty
two. It says:
Numbers 22:1 And the children of Israel set forward, and [they] pitched
in the plains of Moab on this side Jordan. . .{by Jericho}.
I love all these little things in the Word, like these baseball
games - pitched, ya know, an' ah - heh-heh-heh, yeah. They tell the
story about why they didn't play cards on Noah's ark with all the time
they had is because Noah sat on the deck or somethin', (laughter) an' ah
I dunno. But I know verse two tells me where we got our zippers from
(laughter) . . . this fella:
22:2 {And} Balak the son of Zippor saw all that Israel had done
to the Amorites.
22:3 And Moab was sore afraid of the people, because they were
many: and Moab was distressed because of the children of
Israel.
22:4 And Moab said unto the elders of Midian, Now shall this
company lick up all that are round about us, as the ox
licketh up the grass of the field. . .
In other words, the children of Israel were causing no small stir
among the unbelievers. 'Cause the unbelievers had taken land and
property that didn't belong to them.
. . . [so] {And} Balak the son of Zippor was king of the
Moabites at that time.
You gotta keep him an' the next fella, Balaam, seperated. Balak,
the king of the Moabites,
22:5 [so] He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of
Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the
children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there
is a people come out from Egypt: {behold,} they cover the
face of the earth, and they abide over against me:
22:6 Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for
they are too mighty for me: . . .
You see, I can handle this section either from Word of Knowledge
an' Word of Wisdom, I could also handle it from Discerning of Spirits.
I choose to handle it in the Word of Knowledge and Wisdom. Although, as
I told my men in a meeting this morning, there aren't - there are lines
of demarcation that I see in the Word and teach, but you cannot separate
out any of the manifestations and then throw the rest out. They all fit
together for you have all nine abilities, potentials, latent within you,
all of them. So, Speaking in Tongues, is even very important for
operating, oh, the manifestation of Believing. Ah, Interpretation of
Tongues, an' Prophesies very important in the operation of Word of
Knowledge, Wisdom, all of those.
Here is a statement: "I pray thee, curse me this people;". . .
there is absolutely no question about it, that in the devil spirit
field, in the black arts, they do put the curse on people. They are
able and they do, at times, kill people, have them destroyed by spirit
power. So, this is what was in the mind of old Balak, he thought:
"Well, if I can get this man out there, he lives right at the border of
where (it told you the border of where he lived) an' right next to the
children of Israel there, an' he's part of the children of Israel, so to
speak, therefore, if I could get him convinced, he could put the curse
on the children of Israel that they couldn't whamp us - beat us up -
destroy us." So he said: "curse me this people; for they are too mighty
. . . {peradventure} [that] I shall prevail, that we may
smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for
I [know] {wot} that he whom thou blessest is [what?]
{blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed}.
Ha-hah-hah! That's quite a record! This Balak knew that this
Balaam, if he put the blessing on anything, it was blessed - and if old
Balaam said "Go fly a kite", they'd fly the kite, if they were cursed,
they were cursed - he knew this. So, he thought, if he could get that
fella over to his territory, he could encourage him to put the curse on
the children of Israel. So:
22:7 {And} the elders of Moab and the elders of Midian departed
with the rewards of divination {in their hand;} . . .
Ha-ha-hah, gifts - gifts, rewards of divination, gifts to be given
to those men who would - or man who would put the curse on 'em - fortune
telling stuff, you know, hah, pay-off.
. . . {and} they came unto Balaam, and spake unto him the
words of Balak.
And Balaam said, ah - hang in here tonight, lodge here tonight, and
I'll bring you word again as the Lord shall speak unto me. You know,
even sense knowledge wise, he-he could have immediately said; Look, men,
you're all screwed up - you're all wrong. Go on back, I'm not comin'.
But old Balaam had sort of a little crooked streak in him. He always
wanted to try to figure out how he could get a little more and squeeze
on God a little bit or something. So, he said: Fellas, just hang in
here overnight, tomorrow morning I'll let ya know. Ah, an the Lord
shall say - and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam.
{NUM 22:8 And he said unto them, Lodge here this night, and I
will bring you word again, as the LORD shall speak unto me:
and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam.}
22:9 And God came unto Balaam, and said, [Who are those fellas
you've got in here?] . . .
You know, God's sorta stupid - He didn't know. How -
. . . What men are these with thee?
22:10 And Balaam said unto God, [Oh, ah, ya know,] Balak the son of
Zippor, king of Moab, hath sent unto me, saying,
22:11 Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth
the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I
shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.
22:12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not [what?] go with them;
[Thou shalt not what? Go with them] thou shalt not curse the
people: for they are [what?] {blessed.} Huh-huh!
And Balaam rose up . . . now ya got revelation: Word of Knowledge,
Word of Wisdom.
22:13 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and said unto the princes
of Balak, Get you into your land: for the LORD refuseth to
give me leave to go with you.
22:14 And the princes of Moab rose up, and they went unto Balak,
and said, Balaam refuseth to come with us.
22:15 And Balak [the king of Moab] sent yet again princes, more,
and more honourable {than they.}
Ya know, protocol. He's now up to, I imagine, about a two star
general. He's sending that caliber. He started out with what ever's
below that someplace, then protocol ya know.
22:16 And they came to Balaam, [verse 16] and said to him, Thus
saith Balak the son of Zippor, Let nothing, I pray thee,
hinder {thee} from coming unto me:
22:17 For I will promote thee unto very great [what?] {honour,}. . .
See, that's always one of the great catches. The adversary will
always keep throwing it at people. They'll throw the sense knowledge
world promotion at ya. And that's exactly, ya know, he's gonna dump
money on him, property, all of that stuff.
. . . and I will do whatsoever thou sayest unto me: come
therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people.
22:18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If
Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I
cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or
more.
Sense knowledge wise, ya know, he could really blow it. But when
he had revelation, if he told the revelation, class, if he declared the
revelation, the revelation would always be right. No matter how wrong
the man was in his walk. If you were dead drunk today, with a quart of
whiskey hanging off of the side of your belt, born again of God's
spirit, filled with the spirit, and if God would give you revelation,
the revelation you would declare would be absolute truth. Your walk of
life is something else. This is why I say revelation, most unlikely
place, unlikely time, I don't know how it always happens this way and
how it works this way but, that's the way it is. The revelation is
always genuine.
Now I know what I've said has disturbed some of your minds, so I'd
better restate it, Father says. Look, being drunk is sin, right? But,
suppose you had a very, very bad thought, contrary to the Word of God,
what's that? (sin) O.K., so no grades of sin with God. Who's gonna
point the first finger? Not me. I don't understand, you know, I just
know if you're in alignment and harmony, it's one thing, but I also know
a man can be out of alignment at what the world would call a little out
of alignment. There is nothing like that, you're either out of
alignment or you're not out of alignment, right? It's not a little out,
ya know, it's like being a little pregnant and not pregnant - so,
(laughter). Terrible illustration. Anyways, that's the truth.
22:19 Now therefore, I pray you, tarry ye also here this night,
that I may know what the LORD will say unto me more.
Screwball! Should have stuck by the original revelation. Matter-
of-fact, he didn't need any revelation to begin with, 'cause he knew, he
was a prophet, he knew God spoke to him. Therefore, he should have sent
the men back the first time, but he didn't. Then God gave him
revelation, now, ya see, he's trying his best to wiggle out of this
thing so he can go over there to Balak and get paid. He wants C.I.F.,
Cash In Fist, or property, he wants something he's after. So he said;
ah, maybe the Lord will say to me a little more. And it's real neat
because God did come and talk to him further that night:
22:20 {And God came unto Balaam at night}, and said unto him, If the
men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the
word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou [what?]{do}.
Which seems to be an apparent contradiction between the revelation
given at first - ah, where was that? "Thou shalt not go with them." in
verse 12, right? Now, it seems in verse 20, God has changed His mind,
God has changed His mind, He says: "Rise up, go with them; but yet the
word which I shall say unto thee, that shall thou [what?] do." Now, God
didn't change, but there's a phrase in there that the critics never see,
and the phrase is: "If the men come to call thee", if the men come to
call thee. God knew, all the time, the men were not going to come to
call him because, the moment this statement was made, old Balaam, in
verse 21, didn't wait on the men to come to call him;
22:21 {And} Balaam rose up in the morning, [bright and early, the
men never came, he] {and} saddled his [stupid] ***, and went
with the princes of Moab.
There it is, he never waited. It's about like Paul, in one sense,
in the epistles, or Acts, remember? Revelation: "Don't go to Jerusalem,
don't go to Jerusalem", but Paul wanted to go where? (Jerusalem) Oh,
Balaam wanted to go see Balak so bad, he could taste it. So, he goes to
God and he says; Lord, can I go? the Lord said NOPE! Then he goes back,
ya know, and keeps working, and the Lord said; if the men come, you can
go. He never waited for the men to come, he just saddled his stupid
***, got up bright and early, loaded 'er up, went over to see the fellas
and he said; Fellas, I'm ready to go, I got the go sign.
22:22 And God's anger was [what?] {kindled} [why?] {because he
went}: . . .
Because there were no men that came to see him, he did not carry
out what God had told him, didn't carry it out. So, God was "T'd-off"
in verse 22, because he what?, went. You see, there's no contradiction
in the Word, you understand?, none what-so-ever. But,
. . . {and} the angel of the LORD [ha-ha-hah!] stood in the
way [see, he was in the way, the angel of the Lord, all along]
for an adversary against [balaam] {him}. . .
Now old Balaam was riding along, singing his song, ya know, bright
and early; "Good morning, Lord, good morning", hah-ha-hah (laughter).
And he's riding along upon his ***, and his two servants were with him.
They were living it up, ya know, having a great time, old Balaam's - I
can just see how his mind would go, he'd say; "Boy, I gonna get up
there, I'll tell Balak - I-I'll get everything Balak's got, and then
we'll go up and, if it's possible, if God shows me what's gonna happen
to the children of Israel, I'll tell old Balak, then I'll get more money
two men, having a great time, ya know, listening to all of his own
thoughts, and ah, twenty three:
{. . . Now he was riding upon his ***, and his two servants
were with him.}
22:23 {And} thearsssaw the angel of the LORD . . .
Not Balaam, he didn't see nothing (ha-ha-ha), a stupid old ***, ya
know, he's riding along, there he goes down the isle, ya know, and ah,
Balaam riding along with his two buddies and, that oldarsslooks up
there and he sees the angel of the Lord,
. . . standing in the way, and [the angel of the Lord had] his
sword drawn in his hand: and thearssturned aside out of the
way, and went into the field: . . .
Gonna eat himself a little grass, ya know, - not smoke it, but eat
it, and he was (laughter) He saw the angel of the Lord, with the sword
drawn, so he just see-sawed off to the right and started nibbling on the
grass.
. . . and Balaam smote the ***, . . .
He socked it to her with his whip and he kicked her in the ribs
with his spurs.
. . . to turn her into the way.
22:24 But the angel of the LORD [verse 24] stood in a path of the
vineyards, [a narrower way] a wall being on this side, and a
wall [where?] {on that side}.
22:25 And when thearsssaw the angel of the LORD, she thrust
herself unto the wall, and crushed [old] Balaam's foot against
the wall: and [he really socked it to her] he smote her again.
And you know, I mean, he really laid the timber to her, hit her. I
think he was thinking about using a two by four between her ears to get
her attention or somethin'. But,
22:26 {And} the angel of the LORD went [down a little] further, and
stood in a {narrow} [narrower] place, where was no way to turn
either to the right hand or to [what?] {the left}.
22:27 And when thearsssaw the angel of the LORD, she fell down
under Balaam: and [old] Balaam's anger was kindled, and he
smote thearsswith a staff. [beat the "H" out of it.]
22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ***, and she said unto
Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me
these three times?
Ha-ha-ha-hah, oh, that's the first time one dumbarsswas talking to
another one, ha-ha-ha! Oh, and then he, ya know, he's riding along and
all at once she caves in under him, and he hits the "H" out of her, he
says; "What in the Hell ya do that for me for?" and thearsslooks around
and says "What the Hell you mean?" (laughter) Oh, my! That must have
been a very intelligent conversation going on there. Thearsssaid;
"What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me three times?"
22:29 And Balaam said unto the ***, [ha-ha-hah (more laughter)]
Because [you made a fool of me, you] {thou hast} mocked me: I
[wish] {would} there were a sword in mine hand, [i'd kill ya,
you old bird!] {for now would I kill thee}.
22:30 And the arss said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ***, [you
wouldn't kill me, oh you've ridden upon me] {upon which thou
hast ridden} ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever
[accustomed or] wont to do so unto thee? [And Balaam said,
No. ah-hah-ha-ha] {And he said, Nay}.
I don't know if they still do, but, they have a - once upon a time,
I think, they had a talking mule on TV or a talking horse or somethin'.
They must have read the story, see - ha-ha! Oh, I think it's great,
it's neat!
22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, [verse 31] and he saw
the angel of the LORD standing in the way, {and} his sword
drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, [this is old
Balaam] {and} fell flat on his face.
22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou
smitten thine arssthese three times? behold, I went out to
withstand thee, because thy way is perverse [wrong] before me:
22:33 {And} [but] thearsssaw me, and turned from me these three
times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had
slain thee, and [i'd have] saved her {alive}. (laughter)
That's a pretty low opinion of a man of God, isn't it? He'd save
the stupidarssand kill him.
22:34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned;
[man, I've sinned, I've just sinned, I've just sinned] for I
knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: . . .
Ya see, he'd have kept right on going. He never dreamed that
there'd be anything hindering him.
. . . now therefore, if [it'll "T" ya off] {it displease
thee}, [i'll go back home, now] {I will get me back again}.
"I've sinned, I got caught, now, ya know, I really feel bad. If you
don't mind, if it's O.K., you want me to go back, I'll go back."
22:35 {And} [but] the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with
the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that
thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
22:36 And when Balak heard that Balaam was come, he went out to
meet him . . .
Ya know, lot different than the man of God sitting in his kitchen
and having another cup of tea, remember? Yeah, Naaman. Balaam, when
he, when Balak finds out he's coming, he goes out to meet him, rolls out
the red carpet.
{unto a city of Moab, which is in the border of Arnon, which
is in the utmost coast.}
22:37 And Balak [verse 37] said unto Balaam, Did I not earnestly
send unto thee to call thee? wherefore camest thou not unto
me? [the first time I sent somebody?] am I not able {indeed}
to promote thee to honour?
22:38 And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I
now any power at all to say any thing? [here it is:] the word
that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I [what?] speak.
22:39 And Balaam went with Balak, and they came unto [this town,]
{Kirjathhuzoth}.
22:40 And Balak offered oxen and sheep, {and} sent to Balaam, {and}
to the princes that were with him.
22:41 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Balak took Balaam,
and brought him up into the high places of [devils] Baal . . .
Brought him up into the high places of Baal. Where all those pagan
god statues were and stuff, where they worship.
. . . that thence he might see the [uttermost] {utmost} part
of the people.
That he could give a good look over, get a good perspective of the
situation.
23:1 And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and
prepare me here seven oxen and seven rams.
23:2 And Balak did as Balaam had spoken; and Balak and Balaam
offered on every altar a bullock and a ram. [verse 3:]
23:3 And Balaam said unto Balak, Stand by thy burnt offering, and I
will go: peradventure [maybe, perhaps] the LORD will come to
meet me: and whatsoever he sheweth me [or shows to me or tells
me] I will tell [you] {thee}. And he went to an high place.
23:4 And God met Balaam: [God meeting Balaam simply means
revelation.] and he said unto him, [revelation] I have
prepared seven altars, [and so forth - offered] {and I have
offered upon every altar a bullock and a ram}.
23:5 And the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth, [that's revelation]
and said, Return unto Balak, and thus thou shalt speak.
23:6 And he returned unto him, and, lo, he stood by his burnt
sacrifice, he, and all the princes of Moab.
23:7 [verse seven] And he [balaam] took up his parable, . . .
Took up his parable simply means that he spoke to Balak and to the
princes that Balak had there the revelation that God had given him.
That's the meaning of the word "parable". He took up his parable, he
took up the words that God had shown him or told him, he told the king,
. . . {and said,} Balak the king of Moab hath brought me [forth]
from Aram [syria], out of the mountains of the east, saying,
Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.
Here, in verse 8, is the great revelation.
23:8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not [what?] cursed? or how
shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied? [verse 9:]
23:9 For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I
behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be
reckoned among the nations.
What a fantastic revelation. Coming out of the mouth of a man who
is crookeder than a dog's hind leg, where thearsssaw more than the man
of God did. And even unto this day, Israel has never been numbered
among the nations - the word "nations" is Gentiles. And I'm not
speaking of the one Israel that's over in the "Bible lands" now, they're
counterfeit. Ah, you know, you don't go to the Bible lands or get
possessing the earth that's the Lord's which He gave to the rightful
children of Israel, you don't get that by a white paper in Great Britain
and the finances of the United States to carry it out. The record of
the Word tells you how, finally, they go back. So it's still future.
You need to read a book on - I don't know the name of it anymore -
"The Thirteenth Tribe" or somethin', see. Years ago, I wrote, long
before I knew any of those books an stuff, I wrote about Jesus Christ
not being a Jew, see, and everybody thought I was nuts. But then we
find the great scholars coming along today and they're just saying what
I put in a little 20 page booklet, they take 400 pages now to say it,
but knew it all the time, see. Well, you aught to read that "Thirteenth
Tribe" or what ever it is - blow your mind.
Another book you should read is "The Myth of the Six Million" that
the Germans incarcerated during the war. Great publicity to keep
Christians supporting the so called "Children of Israel" that are there
today. Ah, it's a bunch of damned lies, see. And a lot of that stuff,
it's just lies upon lies so you can get money and keep support and get
armament, really somethin'.
The greatest book along that line, of course, was just recently
written by Dr. Butz who was a professor at Northwestern University. I
understand that the pressure has been so upon him that, they either have
or are releasing him. You see, there are just so many, many things
happening or have happened, that only if you know God's Word and are
able to rightly divide it, will you ever be able to understand some of
the things.
Now I have absolutely no dislike for anybody, Jews, Gentiles or
anybody else. I have no race prejudices, I have no country prejudices,
(- thank-you, you can take that) therefore, things that I say to you are
not out of my prejudiced mind. This revelation that God gave Balaam is
right-on. They shall not be reckoned among the nations. Verse ten:
23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth
part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let
my {last} end be like his!
You see, they could be counted, but it's a figure of speech of an
enormous group of people.
23:11 And Balak said unto Balaam, What hast thou done unto me? I
took thee [and brought thee up here] to curse mine enemies,
and, behold, [all] thou hast [done is you've just] blessed
them {altogether}.
23:12 And [balaam] {he} answered and said, Must I not take heed to
speak that which the LORD hath put in my [what?] mouth?
23:13 And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto
another place, from whence thou mayest see them: . . .
[better]
Ah, maybe ya didn't see 'em good enough this first time, I'm gonna
take ya up a little higher so you can
. . . {thou shalt} see {but} the [uttermost] {utmost} part of
them, {and shalt not see them all}: and curse me them from
[there] {thence} [O.K.?].
23:14 And [so] he brought him into the field of Zophim, to the top
of Pisgah [a mountain], and [there he] built seven altars, and
offered a bullock and a ram on every altar.
23:15 And [balaam] {he} said unto Balak, Stand here by thy burnt
offering, while I meet the Lord yonder.
23:16 And the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and
said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus.
23:17 And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt
offering, and the princes of Moab with him. . .
And they were just sure they were gonna get the children of Israel
cursed this time.
. . . And Balak said unto him, What hath the LORD spoken?
23:18 And he [balaam] took up his parable [the revelation], and
said, Rise up, Balak, and hear [get your "earballs" open,
Balak]; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor:
23:19 God is not a man [look at the revelation], that he should
[what?] lie; neither the son of man, [that God has to repent]
that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he [what?] not
do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
[see, Word of God's the Will of God].
23:20 Behold, I have received commandment to bless: . . .
That was the revelation, no curse, but do what? Bless! And he
tells old Balak, looks him straight in the eye and says; that's what I
gotta do.
. . . and he [God] hath blessed; and I [can't] {cannot}
reverse it. [no matter what I say]
23:21 He hath not beheld iniquity in [israel] {Jacob}, . . .
Oh, my God, what a revelation! - Jacob - . . . has not beheld
iniquity in Jacob. And the word "Jacob" means "surplanter". That's the
meaning of the word; one who beats somebody else, one who's a little
shady all the time, a little on the crooked side, if you like that
better. And God said: "I just haven't beheld any iniquity in Jacob.
That's what you call God closin' His eyeballs!
. . . neither hath he seen [wrong] {perverseness} in Israel: . . .
Oh, my God! With all the wrong things they did, here it says God
didn't what? See it - that's got to be grace, people. Grace existed
long before this administration, I trust you know that.
. . . the LORD his God is with [Jacob/Israel] {him}, . . .
You see, Jacob He didn't see, it's surplanter, Israel means "one
favored of God". And even in Israel, they blew it. They were off, yet
God refused to see it. And then this great statement:
. . . {and} the shout of a king is among them.
This prophecy, regarding the coming of the lord Jesus Christ,
coming out of the mouth of Balaam is just, sense knowledge wise,
unbelievable. If it was written any other place than in God's Word, I
wouldn't believe it, I don't think. But being in God's Word, it's true.
But I understand revelation. Golly!
23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; [verse 22:] he hath as it were
the strength of [a wild ox] {an} unicorn. [Look at verse 23:]
23:23 Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, . . .
No hooky-pookism, no spiritualism - you can't put the curse upon
him, you can't put the hex on him.
. . . neither is there any divination against Israel: . . .
People, if you can't put the hex on servants, if you cannot in Old
Testament here, where God said you just can't put the hex on a servant,
and there is no divination, no spiritualist, nobody that can make the
pendulum swing in your clock when it's standing still, there is no way
whereby faces can appear in your bedroom at night, shake your bed -
there is no way whereby you can hear voices - from the wrong source, no
way whereby levitation occurs in front of you, or a guy floats out of
one window and floats in another one - which has happened. There is no
divination, class, even upon Jacob, and he was a surplanter, but God's
hand was still on him, and he became Israel, favored of God.
There absolutely is no divination. Then what in the "H" are you
afraid of? Born again, sons of God, you've heard yourselves speak in
tongues. Why are you still full of fear? And some of you in the
Advanced Class are because of your background: you've been mediums;
you've been spiritualists; you've been to seances, you're still afraid
of hearing a voice coming into your room at night or seeing someone
appear at the foot of your bed. Why, people - when are you ever going
to believe God's Word?
You can run fifty million black cats across in front of my car, it
don't bother me a bit. I run over every damn one that gets in the way!
(laughter) Walk underneath a ladder - bad luck - well bless God, set up
a ladder and walk under it all day, back and forth - if you have to, to
prove to yourself that as a son of God, there is no enchantment, there
is no divination, there is nobody can put the hex on you. They can make
a doll out of you and push pins in it from here to Europe and back,
that's not gonna touch you, it's not gonna hurt you! When are you gonna
believe God! (applause)
But, if they got fear in you, then you're not in alignment and
what? (harmony) And that's why you're headed the road of Balaam, and
if that dumbarssdon't fall under you, the sword's gonna kill you - you
are going to die and the spiritualists will do it. It's as simple as
all that.
Well, there's the sound of a king. Verse 24:
23:24 Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up
himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of
the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.
23:25 And Balak said unto [him: Shut-up! Shut-up! Don't you curse
them at all nor bless them. It's better just to keep it
cool. If you're not gonna curse 'em, shut-up.] {Balaam,
Neither curse them at all, nor bless them at all.}
23:26 But Balaam answered and said unto Balak, Told not I thee,
saying, All that the LORD speaketh, that I must do?
And Balak said; O.K., I pray thee, I'm gonna take you up a little
higher - heh, sure workin' him over, ain't it?
23:27 {And Balak said unto Balaam, Come, I pray thee, I will bring
thee unto another place; peradventure} it will please God that
thou mayest curse me them from [there] {thence}.
23:28 And Balak brought Balaam [up to] {unto} the top of Peor, that
looketh toward [this town] {Jeshimon}.
23:29 And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and
prepare me here seven bullocks and seven rams.
23:30 And Balak did as Balaam had said, and offered a bullock and a
ram on every altar. [Chapter 24:]
NUM 24:1 And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel,
he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments . . .
Ha-hah, every time he went up there, he was hoping that he would be
given the clue, like the spiritualists were, that something would happen
where he could sneak in. Crooked! Damn it, he was crooked! One would
have thought he'd have learned his lesson on the road down there
confronted with that jack-***! But it seems man forgets very quickly.
24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in
his tents according to their tribes; and [then] the spirit of
God came [what?] upon him [again].
24:3 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor
hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
24:4 He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the
vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his
eyes [what?] {open}: [He saw it by revelation.]
24:5 How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O
Israel! [There's the prophecy - eh, the revelation.]
24:6 As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the
river's side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath
planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters.
24:7 He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall
be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and
his kingdom shall be exalted.
24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the
strength of an unicorn [a wild ox]: he shall eat up the
nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce
them through with his arrows.
24:9 He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who
shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and
cursed is he that [what?] {curseth thee}.
Anyone that blesses you, people, as sons of God, that person
blessing you, will be blessed. And if any stupid fool tries to put the
curse on you, they're the ones that are gonna get it, not you! That's
the Word (applause) that's right. That's how it happens.
24:10 And Balak's anger was kindled against Balaam, and he smote
his hands together: and Balak said unto Balaam, I called thee
to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast altogether
blessed them these three times.
24:11 Therefore now flee . . .
See, that's man again. See, flee, ya know, he's gonna now, you
know, sock it to him.
. . . {thou to thy place:} I thought to promote thee unto
great honour; but, lo, the LORD hath kept [this honour back
from thee] {thee back from honour}.
What a bunch of junk, huh? Blaming God for keeping the blessing
off of Balaam.
24:12 And Balaam said unto Balak, Spake I not also to thy
messengers which thou sentest unto me, saying,
24:13 If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I
cannot go beyond the commandment of the LORD, to do either
good or bad of mine own mind; [here it is:] but what the LORD
saith, that will I [what?] {speak}?
No matter how badly he wanted all of those other things, when he
had revelation, when he spoke the revelation, the revelation was right-
on. "I cannot go beyond what the Lord saith".
24:14 And now, behold, I go unto my people [i'm going back to
Israel, to my people, Israel]; come therefore [balak], and I
will advertise thee . . .
He's going to make a display ad for him now, heh-heh. He's gonna
advertise him. And he's gonna show him
. . . what this people [israel is going to] {shall} do to
[his] {thy} people [balak's people] in the latter days.
24:15 And he [balaam] took up his parable, and said, {Balaam the son
of Beor hath said, and} the man whose eyes are open {hath
said}: [verse 16:]
24:16 He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the
knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the
Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
[Here's seventeen: Shout of a king among them, now watch this
edition:]
24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not
[immediately] {nigh}: [but] there shall come a Star out of
[what?] {Jacob}, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and
shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children
of Sheth.
This not only was regarding the deliverance at that time but it was
beyond that, because the Star out of Jacob and the Scepter out of Israel
is the lord Jesus Christ. Came out of the mouth of a man who was
crookeder than a dog's hind leg.
24:19 Out of Jacob [verse 19] shall come he that shall have
dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
24:20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and
said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end
shall be that he perish for ever.
24:21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, . . .
24:23 And he took up his parable [again in verse 23], and said,
Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!
Then, verse 25:
24:25 {And} Balaam rose up, and went and returned to his place: and
Balak also went [back to] his {way}.
Really something, isn't it? Really something! Hmm - look at
chapter 31. Ah, by the way, chapter 25 precedes 31 and sometime you
really aught to read through all of these chapters with what I'm
teaching you and just watch how all of this stuff develops. In chapter
25 it says:
Num. 25:1 And Israel abode in ****tim, and the people began to commit
whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
See, that did not mean physical, sexual acts. What it meant is
that the men of the children of Israel married Moabite women, and the
women brought with them the worship of their pagan gods. That's why
it's whoredoms. Whoredoms. I forget which prophet it was, - one of the
prophets, God told him to marry a whore. I forget who that was - who?
That's right, Hosea. Can ya imagine God tellin' a man of God ta shack
up with a whore?
Ya see, God is so fantastic an the things that people get all
messed up with God doesn't but He simply proved to Israel that they were
whoring around because they had other gods. They had other gods! And
the greatest amount of whoredom in the Word of God is to have any other
god but the one true God. They had other gods! And the reason ya have
other gods is because people worshipped them.
That's why the Word teaches that a believer aught to marry a
believer. And don't go marrying an unbeliever whose promised you he's
gonna take the class and change his life after you get married.
(applause) Really somethin', kids.
25:2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods:
and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
25:3 And [then] Israel joined {himself unto Baalpeor:} and the
anger of the LORD was kindled against [what?] {Israel}.
See, anger of the Lord was kindled against the children of Israel.
The anger of the Lord gets kindled against The Way people today, if ya
shack-up with other gods, if ya worship other gods, if ya run around at
these seance meetings or the Edgar Casey junk or the Jeannie Dixon junk,
or ya go to the places with bells in the steeples or somethin' where the
Word of God is hashed to pieces, God'll take His hand off of you. Well,
I don't know. Chapter 31, verse one:
Num. 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward
shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
And that is showing Moses that he's going to die. I think He
showed this to Peter or someone, didn't He when he said: "I must shortly
lay off this tabernacle". Revelation - pre-death revelation, knowing
that you're just sorta winding up your life here upon earth.
31:4 [and] {Of} every tribe . . .
31:5 So there were delivered [verse 5] out of the thousands of
Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for
war.
31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe,
{them} and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, {to the
war,} with the holy instruments, {and} the trumpets to blow in
his hand.
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded
Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of [what?] Midian, beside the rest of
them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and
Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: [and who else?] Balaam
also the son of Beor they slew with [what?] {the sword}
.
Slew him, that's how he died. Sort of a sad ending to a man who
had the spirit of God on him, isn't it? Really. But it's sort of a sad
ending to the life of the church of the body in which you and I live
today to see men and women who have been exposed and have the greatness
of the revelation of God's Word made known unto them and then to go
back.
Sometimes I think, perhaps, words from the gospels would be very
apropos; it would have been better for them had a mill stone been hung
about their neck than they should suffer or cause one of these little
ones to go astray. But I don't run that side of the world. I feel
sorry for people, like I assume, children of Israel felt sorry for
Balaam. But when a man wills to walk away and he walks away, he'll pay
a high price.
Today, not everybody gets killed, if you have revelation, you can
turn him over to the adversary, but - if you don't have, they just live.
But, people, they will be held accountable to God at the gathering
together, the same as all men will, 'cause all men are going to appear
before God. Dead in Christ first, all of that, to receive rewards,
crowns - rewards, others in judgment.
No man can walk for any other man, but I think this Advanced Class
is a tremendous time to make a decision that's non-reversible, one that
you will never reverse on, and that is; "As long as you live upon this
earth, from now on, or until the return of Christ, you just never back-
up on God's Word. And never try to handle it deceitfully, nor allow
devil spirits or anything else to come into your life or body to control
you. Or to speak disrespectful about God and His Word. Or to try to
touch the Apple of God's Eye by you being so wonderful." I think you
have to come to the place, if you really want God's blessing upon your
life, to just stay put, and declare what the Word says.
You're born again, and I know it, I heard ya speak in tongues and
that's the proof, that's why I know you can get revelation as long as
you live. But, man, if you're out in left field, and the adversary
begins to use you, and especially should you allow yourself to become
possessed in your mind by a devil spirit, you can just rack and ruin the
body of Christ, you can do what I said the other night or yesterday
afternoon; A man can tear something down very quickly, which takes a
long time to build. I think I talked about cutting trees down, I did,
on the campus. I could cut those trees down in a couple of minutes,
that took hundreds of years to grow to the beauty of it.
So, God, the true God, will continue to bless and no enchantment
can touch you, unless you open to it by your will, you make a decision
to listen to the adversary, you decide to hear what they have to say,
'cause it's coming through the mouth of your best friends who are like
jack-asses. Who just feed back to you - they're your best friends, many
times it's husband, wife, ancestors, relatives, some prominent political
man or religious leader, they tell you these things and then you listen
to 'em, but what they say is contrary to the Word. And they'll take you
down, people, you'll go down with them. And then you speak badly of the
greatness of the revelation of God, or men and women who have endeavored
to stand for the greatness of that. And you're the one that's going to
be the loser.
So, if I were you, I'd make up my mind, I'd live for God and the
greatness of God and His Word, from this day forward and I just let
everything else in God's judgment. But I would not ever listen to devil
spirits or people who say things that are absolutely contrary to God's
Word. I'd stand up to 'em and say: "Look, that's not what the Word
says!" I think you are God's people to do it. And I'd like to say to
you, if you don't do it, there is no hope left. There is no other way
to go than the Word, people, and revelation is available to every one of
you. But I want you to reap the rewards, the blessings of God
throughout all eternity, for the faithfulness of your walk, and the
right dividing of the Word while you're here. For that, you're going to
be rewarded before God throughout all eternity. And eternity's a lot
longer than the fifty, sixty, seventy years here upon earth. And if I
were you, I'd make that commitment today. O.K.? That's it.
END OF SEGMENT 20
[This message was edited by Mike on January 10, 2004 at 3:21.]
Wow. Holy arrogant. I don't need your help! I'm fine. You don't know me, what my beliefs are or anything else about me. All you know about me is that I am exTWI and I think Vic was a criminal. The difference between David and Vic is that I don't believe that God worked in Vic. He was a charlatan, a hoaxical plagiarizer and a fraud.
"A lot of WHY I was so bold as to stand up to your statement of ?I faked it? is because of it?s affect on others. I think you wanted it to help kill their belief that they had it right. Tearing down believing in PFAL is par for the course here, and your tone seemed to say that you were trying to inject the same doubts in others."
Again you don't know me or my intentions or my tone. I am not trying to tear down anyone's believing. Believe what you want, I don't give a rat's a**. All I was doing was being honest and trying to see if others felt the same way. The truth can set you free, especially when one has been living with a burdensome secret that carries doubt and shame along with it. The weight that was lifted from me when openly admitted I was faking it was tremendous. It took alot for me to say that because it was admitting that I lived a lie for many many years. Now you're idea of helping me is to do the very thing you accuse me of: you're trying to kill MY beliefs and place that lie right back on my shoulders. A classic Way tactic.Good thing I know better, good thing I know I was faking it.
And as far as Vic's "old man nature" goes: I don't know or care if you think there are degrees of sin. But my old ma nature is to have one too many beers and tell the occasional white lie. But I would never dream of using and twisting scripture to convince women to sleep with me and talk people into giving me their money and dedicating their lives to my alternative teachings.
"Thomas was reproved for so heavily relying on what he saw."
Mike, I don't believe I'm worthy of the kind of reproof Thomas got from Jesus. Thomas wanted to believe Jesus was alive but for whatever reason didn't. Also Thomas considered himself a friend of Jesus. Otherwise Thomas' response would have been one of apathy rather than doubt. Unlike you, I'm not concerned about such things as eternal life, because I don't need it for one thing. When I die, I expect to lose consciousness (or have you rejected VPW's teaching that the soul dies?). The only difference is I don't expect to be resurrected (and if it means being resurrected unto something horrible, why would God do something evil like that? I sure as hell don't deserve that kind of experience!). If I were to get the same resurrection unto something good, I guess it wouldn't bother me.
Also, I don't believe Jesus is coming back. I would not be offended or otherwise disturbed however if it turned out I was wrong in my asserstions, and Jesus did in fact return, as long as he turns out to be a swell guy. I would be angry to find Jesus turns out to be a tyrannical a$$hole though, no better or perhaps worse than the Satan whose propositions he rejected.
Also what other teachings of VPW have you held onto? According to VPW, and I guess the Word of God if VPW was straight forward about it, you and I are brothers in Christ, regardless of what I now believe or at least question, and what you may believe or otherwise hold in opinion about me.
I really don't want to engage too much into pointless arguments however. I respect your opinions as long as you respect mine (If you believe in "burn forever in hell" however, I may have an axe to grind with ya there :D-->)
Apples and oranges Steve. The verses and examples I posted dealt with a person hearing the manifestation of speaking in tongues in the context of the preaching of the gospel; like your first example of the evangelist and the reactions of the crowd. Your experience with the child is completely different. The mother didn't hear you speaking in tongues and the benefit of intercession is not a sign to unbelievers, it's intercession. In the example you mentinoed, the benefit was that you were able to tell her what to do for the child.
I have been told repeatedly that when I intercede for my friend, it works. So he always asks me to pray for specific things. I never do. I just speak in tongues for him. Is that proof that I have holy spirit, etc. No, it's intercession. The benefit of intercession is answered prayer.
Peace
JerryB
***
Apples and oranges Jerry for sure. I do dig both crates full!!! No doubt about that.
But what is the proof that sit is for real whether it's doing one thing or 10 others? I have none. "The Bible says" is no more proof than JRRT's Middle Earth. And that is what I am being honest with in my life. I am not saying that you are being dishonest, but that I am being honest with my thoughts and my understanding of what I see and have experienced as far as a faith based life and you yours.
I pray for someone and that person recieves the benefit of answered prayer... i just do not understand that... i used to think i did... but it does not make sence to me anymore. It sounds like 2+2=4.00000000001. Just that little infitesimal edge needed to accept it by faith.
The child had cholic. The mother was frustrated. The child picks up on the stress with great distress and the mother is calling me instead of medical attention. I am under no stress from the whole scene and the child apparently goes to sleep because i silently sit? Facetiously....Oh, now i know... it was word of knowlege and word of wisdom coupled with beleiving and gifts of healing and the spice that got it going was SIT.... 5 out of 9 is pretty good spiritually. :D--> The child actually & finally gets relief from proper medical diagnosis.
Apples and oranges Jerry for sure. I do dig both crates full!!! No doubt about that.
But what is the proof that sit is for real whether it's doing one thing or 10 others? I have none. "The Bible says" is no more proof than JRRT's Middle Earth. And that is what I am being honest with in my life. I am not saying that you are being dishonest, but that I am being honest with my thoughts and my understanding of what I see and have experienced as far as a faith based life and you yours.
I pray for someone and that person recieves the benefit of answered prayer... i just do not understand that... i used to think i did... but it does not make sence to me anymore. It sounds like 2+2=4.00000000001. Just that little infitesimal edge needed to accept it by faith.
The child had cholic. The mother was frustrated. The child picks up on the stress with great distress and the mother is calling me instead of medical attention. I am under no stress from the whole scene and the child apparently goes to sleep because i silently sit? Facetiously....Oh, now i know... it was word of knowlege and word of wisdom coupled with beleiving and gifts of healing and the spice that got it going was SIT.... 5 out of 9 is pretty good spiritually. :D--> The child actually & finally gets relief from proper medical diagnosis.
I suppose it's beating a dead horse to death.
Grace & Peace
StevenH
I can fully understand your point about the mother and the child story Steve. In that particular intance, it's very gray. There may or may not have been any spiritual element to that solution. What I am saying is that there are many others that are much clearer and these do confirm the truth of the gospel of Christ. I'm going to venture a tad bit off topic here to relate one. I beg the indulgence of the thread police.
I was born with a myriad of allergies and respiratory problems that plagued my youth. One was ashthma. Cold weather was one trigger. Often an onset of bitter cold weather would incite an asthma attack that would have me bedridden and wheezing, struggling to breathe for days. When I was in college my fiancee (now my wife of 19 years) took the class and went WOW. To Cleveland. I went to visit her in January and suffered an asthma attack. As I lay on her couch wheezing, she ministered to me. As she prayed, my bronchial tubes opened as if God was breathing fresh air into my lungs. In a matter of seconds the attack ended and I have not had one since.
That's a clear miracle of healing and it reinforces the truth of the gospel because it was administered in the name of Jesus Christ by a believing Christian.
So I can't help you with the cholicy child incident. But I do see the miracles that God has blessed me with as validation of the gospel of Christ. Before I accepted Christ and made a commitment to Him, my life was powerless. Afterward, it was blessed with healings, miracles, inspired utterance, and lots and lots of grace. The same is true of my wife. We had dated for almost two years before she got witnessed to. She had some chronic physical problems and a lot of emotional/spiritual baggage from her youth. After she took the class, she was delivered of a lot of this. Not because PFAL is the worf of God as Mike believes, but because God meets people where they are. We were seeking and piffle was as close to a Church as we were willing to go, so God met us there and blessed us. To his credit "Docvic did teach us about speaking in tongues in such a way that some of us could believe it and manifest it. I think if the heart of the ministry weren't so corrupt, a lot more people would have had genuine manifestations, rather than being pressured to fake it.
I'm not saying you shouldn't question your faith. By all means do. That's how we grow.
I have jettisoned lots of TWI doctrine, and some Biblical doctrine. I'm still searching and learning. But despite the loss of the neat little box of answers that piffle used to be, I remain absolutely convinced that God is true, Christ has indeed redeemed me, both of them are rather fond of us, and that they will continue to meet us where we are as long as we continue to seek them with an honest heart.
..."I'm not saying you shouldn't question your faith. By all means do. That's how we grow.
I have jettisoned lots of TWI doctrine, and some Biblical doctrine. I'm still searching and learning. But despite the loss of the neat little box of answers that piffle used to be, I remain absolutely convinced that God is true, Christ has indeed redeemed me, both of them are rather fond of us, and that they will continue to meet us where we are as long as we continue to seek them with an honest heart. "
Peace
JerryB
*****
Jerry, I just read your post again. So very kewl that you were healed of your respiratory problems "in the name of Jesus Christ by a believing Christian." That is an extraordinary experience.
So many an experience we can count on to prove God is real or a validation of ones beleif in a "Christian" God. That is proof enough to validate a faith based life where there once was a powerless life. We all do evolve if we seek a power that we know is greater than our perception rather than just hang on to the old perceptions that the earth is the centre of the universe.
THE LEFT LEG:I am not suppose to have my left leg. Then I was not supposed to have my left knee cap.Then I was suppose to not be able to bend my left leg more than 10 degrees. Then I was suppose to not be able to squat. I would always walk with a limp and never run. The Bone Docs said my healing was extraordinary to them, like a miracle. And that was jUsT my left leg. I was called The Chariot Man. But ya know my Bone Man Nettles told me that he could not heal me, that he could only set the bones, and the healing would come. Now that is truth. Now what if I did not have a "Bone Man Nettles" and my healing took place without the bones being set, I suppose my bones would have healed deformed... maybe.
Here is another one. One morning I woke up early, yawned and sat on the edge of the bed and stretched. I slipped off the edge and ended on the floor with my right leg pinned like a chicken wing and my left leg straight out. My my my, how do I get myself into these awkward situations. --> Oh that hurt... Well, I tried to get up. I could not. My wife was gone to work and would not be home for hours. I was trapped between the bed and the wall that led to the bathroom. I tried to push the king size bed with my back to give me room to get up. No budge. My right leg was going numb. I tried to get my elbows, hands, arms up on the bed to pull myself up,,, no reach, no leverage. The phone to my left on the night stand... could not bend enough to the side to reach. I was literally trapped... very very helpess... could not feel my chicken winged right leg ... what to do??? I was on the floor on my azz, my back against the bed, my right leg like a chicken wing laying flat on the floor... i became calm realising my silly accident and the seriousnes of my predicament... I tried all the aformentioned manuevers again and again and again with the same results of being trapped. Okay ... I prayed... "Uhm God... hey... uhm ya know I am here and ya see what's going on... can I get some help here."
And I just realised how helpless I was and just accepted the situation knowing that I would get out of it some how. Lo and behold, my numb right leg began to move of its own volition as I watched. My eyes were wide open such a display of involuntary movement that finally resulted in my right leg becoming parallel with my left and all feeling restored. I just simply cried silent tears on to my cheeks and got up and called my wife.
Jerry, I did not pray in the name of JC, but I was a born again Christain.
So many stories of such encounters with the 'miracle' realm eh!!! Makes me wonder why I still can not walk on the water even though I try every time I attend the beach.My wife laughs with and at me each endeavor the attempt to walk on water. So many experiences validates ones beliefs in a 'god' that is just beyond our finite understanding and beyond proof.
Grace & Peace & Rok On Man
StevenH
..."On a day like today, I pass the time away and walk a quiet mile with you..."
Ya know mabe we are just tapping into a resource that has always been within us since we were born... but how to utilise such a resource that has always been in our dna is just what I need to find out how to walk on the water.
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CKnapp3
Ok Mike, point well taken.
:)--> However remember also, a picture (or anything that can be seen) is worth 1000 words.
I other words, you can hear, but unless you see, you have no real basis to believe. If I were to tell you Coca Cola™ is actually clear and not dark, would you just believe me? Probably not. But if you were to see a glass of clear liquid only to have it taste like Coke, then you would have a basis to believe. (Incidently, Coke is in fact clear. The reason it's dark colored is because they use caramel coloring.)
In conclusion which is better? To believe everything, or to believe nothing, pending of course some piece of evidence or proof?
Also just a little food for thought. Is it better to worship a god, only to have it be the devil, or is it better to avoid all worship? I would think a good God would be very understanding and would have you not worship at all rather than worship what you think is God only for it to be something evil.
Furthermore, to believe what you haven't seen is definately not wise believing since it's greatly possible the concept could be a lie. If I were to say doo-doo is good to eat, would you eat it? (presuming you don't know what doo-doo is of course).
Chuck
[This message was edited by CKnapp3 on January 09, 2004 at 23:23.]
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Jbarrax
Apples and oranges Steve. The verses and examples I posted dealt with a person hearing the manifestation of speaking in tongues in the context of the preaching of the gospel; like your first example of the evangelist and the reactions of the crowd. Your experience with the child is completely different. The mother didn't hear you speaking in tongues and the benefit of intercession is not a sign to unbelievers, it's intercession. In the example you mentinoed, the benefit was that you were able to tell her what to do for the child.
I have been told repeatedly that when I intercede for my friend, it works. So he always asks me to pray for specific things. I never do. I just speak in tongues for him. Is that proof that I have holy spirit, etc. No, it's intercession. The benefit of intercession is answered prayer.
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
Gasp! What heresy! Well, to science, it is heresy and the rejection of this basic belief colors the endeavors of physicists, biologist, geneticists and other allegedly objective researchers.
So to assume that skeptic's reluctance to embrace an idea means that there's not enough evidence for it, is naive.
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
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Jbarrax
That's a beautiful story Dovie. And it makes a very important point. Juat because someone fakes speaking in tongues doesn't mean they CAN'T do it. It may be more of an indictment of the shallowness of the ministry and the depths to which it fell than of the reality of speaking in tongues.
I say again, just because you faked it doesn't mean you CAN'T do it. Maybe some of you fakers should ask God to work with your heart and faith and show you how it's supposed to be done. I don't mean that to sound demeaning. I just want to encourage you to give it another shot.
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
Now that's just silly. Composing a message using a concordance is not speaking by inspiration. Just because some of these fine folks faked it and were not discovered doesn't mean the manifestations are fake, as Wytduv's experience indicates. To try to convince someone that God inspired their premeditated message is absurd.
Speak for yourself sir. That's a little presumptuous don't you think?
JerryB
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Georgio Jessio
"Oh, by the way, for you doubting Thomass's, Gods rule: You believe first and than you see!!!"
Yeah man , I believed. I really did. I believed to the point that I thought there was something wrong with me.
Mike,
I don't know what to tell you. I made a conscious effort to fake it. I have never thought for a minute that anyone would try to tell me I wasn't faking it. I figured some would laugh, some would say I did an evil thing, some would feel sorry for me. But you, my man Mike, have taken the cake for most unexpected reply.
I have seen you say some ridiculous things, defend VPW (who I say was a scum bag, I have plenty of first hand experience that you would refuse to believe), I've seen you refute the abuse claims, I've seen you defend a ministry built on lies (it didn't snow that day in July, he didn't invent the hook shot, conceive McDonalds or ever receive a doctorate). I've seen you blame others for being "out of fellowship" and not listening to VPW when the king of being "out of fellowship" was Old Vic himself.
I can take all that. I think it's twisted, but I can accept your respect for Vic. If you think he was right, great.
But you trying to tell me I wasn't faking it is the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said to me in my life. Straight up. And I've heard some whoppers, I grew up in TWI ,after all! I was told, by Vic, that non believing young ladies were only good for sex, not relationships. I over heard your man Vic tell my mother that "sex falls under the category of need" and "The man of God can meet your needs". I've heard some really weird stuff. I heard my Limb Coordinator say he had to cast out so many spirits from the previous Limb Coordinator that when he did, the man levitated! (total bs according to witnesses he just went in, yelled at him and threw him out)
I am not exaggerating. You saying I wasn't faking it is truly most ridiculous thing anyone has ever told me. I didn't think anything I heard while I was "in" could be topped, then along came Mike.
Congradu freakin lations.
I don't know why I am asking this but you said: So far you are not convincing me very well. Do you remember Dr teaching on Balaam in the Advanced Class?
Two questions: 1. what could I ever say that would convince you I was faking it? Seriously.
2. I remember the Advance Class. Asking me if I remember what Vic (why DO you call him Dr? I want to be called Captain, is that all it takes?) said about Balaam is like asking me if I remember what he said about the bible in PFAL. Can you be more vague? Please, refresh my memory.
Glow-ry!
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Galen
wyteduv58
"And one day a couple of months ago I listened to one of his teachings about SIT and all of a sudden towards the end of the teaching I really started SIT for the first time in my life.
It was totally different from the one I faked and was/is very beautiful tongue. When my hubby heard it he broke down and cryed and so did I. I do it now on a regular basis. But I haven't yet done interpritation or prophecy yet, maybe someday I will, but I'm patient and will wait til that day comes."
Wow that is so neat.
I had always understood that "Reason for Speaking in Tongues" number eleven (Mark 16:17 a sign to un-beleivers) was dealing with those un-beleiving beleivers.
A person has been going to fellowships and has been doing stuff, but they still dont 'really' believe that they are really truly saved and righteous and sanctified and redeemed. Speaking in tongues (which they think they are faking) (or which they think is gibberish) will one day finally show them that it is real.
I thought that mine was gibberish. I never tried to repeat any phrases, and I never memorized any verses to say. But I did think that it was not possible for 'me' to do it.
Once while riding my bike on a quick road-trip (Virginia to california to washington to connnecticut), I was SIT'ing a lot while driving, and I decided to try 'influencing' it's sound. I found that I could SIT and sound just like my barracks room-mate's tongue (Rick Horncohl), and then the next day I found that I could make SIT that sounded just like chinese. I was so happy, for a while. But then later I got depressed. Because I knew I was 'faking'. Some months later I was in a twig and used that 'chinese' sounding 'tongue' while doing a tongues with interpretation. Others in the fellowship were very excited and were able to provide the word-for-word translation of what I had said in that 'chinese' tongue. They said that I spoke Mandarin with a 'northern' accent.
This incident finally convinced me that Speaking-in-tongues was real and that I was doing it, I am born again and G-d does like me.
I think that in your case, your 'faking' it was all a part of your journey to finally find your beleif that you are born again. You are my sister in Christ.
Bless you.
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Mike
Galen,
Cool!
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Mike
CKnapp3,
You wrote: ?I other words, you can hear, but unless you see, you have no real basis to believe.?
Thomas was reproved for so heavily relying on what he saw.
****
You wrote: ? If I were to tell you Coca Cola™ is actually clear and not dark, would you just believe me? Probably not.?
If you had a previously established track record of saying many right on things, and the stakes weren?t too high for being wrong, I may very well experimentally ?believe? or mentally accept your assertion.
Actually, with this one particular example, I think I DO believe you, since I?ve seen other soft drinks that can be clear. Plus I?ve often seen ingredient labels with caramel coloring mentioned. The more small indirect ?proofs? like this accumulate the more I?m inclined to jump up on that right rail of believing you all the way, assuming these waters have no sharks.
****
You wrote: ?In conclusion which is better? To believe everything, or to believe nothing, pending of course some piece of evidence or proof??
Why the stark extremes? Which is better? Neither, if you insist on the extremes of ?everything? versus ?nothing.?
I find that too many times people resort to extremes in their thinking, stark black and white, and seem to loose track of all the shades of gray in between. This will come up again in my response to other posters below.
****
You wrote: ?Also just a little food for thought. Is it better to worship a god, only to have it be the devil, or is it better to avoid all worship? I would think a good God would be very understanding and would have you not worship at all rather than worship what you think is God only for it to be something evil.?
I agree, but I think you?re resorting to a worldly definition of ?worship? while we were taught that SIT is the only true worship. I know what you mean though, and agree that God can help correct the counterfeit items in our mental processes to come into alignment with His Word and will.
************************************************************
Jbarrax,
Without studying them closely, I thought that your three posts prior to the one addressed to me were quite good.
I especially liked your last comment to wyteduv58, where you wrote: ?That's a beautiful story Dovie. And it makes a very important point. Juat because someone fakes speaking in tongues doesn't mean they CAN'T do it. It may be more of an indictment of the shallowness of the ministry and the depths to which it fell than of the reality of speaking in tongues. __ I say again, just because you faked it doesn't mean you CAN'T do it. Maybe some of you fakers should ask God to work with your heart and faith and show you how it's supposed to be done. I don't mean that to sound demeaning. I just want to encourage you to give it another shot.?
Excellent! This is the same heart I put into my response to Georgio.
****
Regarding that post you wrote to me: ?Now that's just silly. Composing a message using a concordance is not speaking by inspiration.?
I?d say here that you are over abbreviating what I said. Maybe I should have more explicit. I tried to by including these qualifiers, now placed in ALL-CAPS:
?It sounds like you must have done this a lot, or your Interpretation would be very repetitive, and a smart person like you would know that total repetition would not impress your mother. So, you must have eventually gotten a STOREHOUSE OF IDEAS FROM THIS PROCESS BUILT UP INSIDE YOUR HEAD, and all flowing in harmony with the Word and not at cross purposes. __ On ONE DAY you MAY have decided at the last second to do a previously prepared message, instead of the most recent preparation. Or you MAY have altered your prep at the last second slightly. Or added in SOME other stuff that you may have heard someone else utter long before that stuck. Or a RECENTLY REMEMBERED BIBLE VERSE OR PHRASE. __ On THOSE occasions, IF you had even the slightest inclination to bless or help others in love, such a last second decision COULD HAVE BEEN inspiration! ON THOSE OCCASIONS you may have uttered, like the crooked prophet Balaam?s beautiful prophecy, SOME perfect messages from God. __ In other words, your mental faking it MAY have been MIXED with genuine inspired utterances. That?s all we, more sincere, operators of TIP were ever able to do. We all had lots of repetition, and lots of prepared crutch phrases mixed in with our messages from or for God.?
It wasn?t just the concordance use I was bringing to the table, even though most do contain a line of scripture verse, and the rest of the verse may be stored in mind. Reading a concordance is a LITTLE like flipping through a Bible version. Sure writing a few passages down and premeditating their use later at twig isn?t spiritual, but I included in my post more than just concordant use like the storehouse of verses in memory.
Now inspiration involves God taking those thoughts and memories whose gist lines up with the Word and He points out or brings to mind which ones should be uttered at the decent and in order time at twig. Inspiration is not revelation. If the portions of God?s Word are NOT in memory (whether sourced from gold edged leather KJVs, or concordances, or hearing someone read a Bible, or hearing someone manifest right before it?s your turn...the source doesn?t matter here) if not in memory, then God can?t inspire it. If God whispers something it?s revelation, not inspiration.
Another qualifier in my post to Georgio is the GRAY nature of what I am proposing he consider (much like your quoted paragraph to Dovey above) the possibility that SOME (not all) of his ?fakery? was actually genuine. I really believe this was the case with many grads, and when I talked to them this way it helped them to press on and try again in spite of their FEELINGS of fakery.
Another ALL-CAPS qualifier in my self quote above is the use of words like
may, may, could have been, may. I?m thinking the best case scenario. I?d rather think that way and have not been at all convinced by Georgio that his assessment of his own activity is accurate. I?ve seen too many people THINK something was fakery, and just bit the bullet and continued on the best they could to bless. I?ve examined this very situation so many times and saw that people were not able to properly evaluate their own internal workings because SOME of them were spiritual. We did do some spiritual things, but our understanding was mostly 5-senses at best. Add to that the lack of mastery we all suffered regarding the distilled teachings placed in the PFAL books and even that 5-senses understanding of those internal activities looks mighty untrustworthy in my book.
****
You wrote: ?To try to convince someone that God inspired their premeditated message is absurd.?
I just don?t think his premeditation was all that was going on.
****
You then quoted me : ?that?s all we, more sincere, operators of TIP were ever able to do. We ALL had LOTS of repetition, and LOTS of prepared crutch phrases mixed in with our messages from or for God.?
You then commented: ?Speak for yourself sir. That's a little presumptuous don't you think??
Yes. It was a little heavy handed, but it seems roughly accurate, especially as time wore on into the mid 80?s. As we all drifted away from what we were taught and what was put into writing I sincerely think that my use of the word "all" becomes more and more accurate. I do see exceptions to the contrary, but not trends.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 10, 2004 at 3:25.]
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Mike
Oops. Double post.
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Mike
Georgio Jessio,
Sorry I somewhat answered your post in my response to Jerry. I?ll try to add more now to your post.
?Oh, by the way, for you doubting Thomass's, Gods rule: You believe first and than you see!!! __ Yeah man , I believed. I really did. I believed to the point that I thought there was something wrong with me.?
Well we got to be wise in our believing. I know I was not always so wise in what I chose to believe. Sometimes it wasn?t God?s Word, but some slightly (or not so slightly) inaccurate form of the Word. If it?s the Word we believe, we will eventually see. But if it?s really believing, then circumstances (like not seeing for a long time or the ministry melting down) will not cause it to stop. Mental assent, a good counterfeit of believing, poops out when challenged sufficiently.
****
You wrote: ?Mike, I don't know what to tell you. I made a conscious effort to fake it. I have never thought for a minute that anyone would try to tell me I wasn't faking it. I figured some would laugh, some would say I did an evil thing, some would feel sorry for me. But you, my man Mike, have taken the cake for most unexpected reply.?
Try reading it again then. Don?t trust your first take to be accurate. Taking the cake can be a distraction that hides many details.
****
You wrote: ?I have seen you say some ridiculous things, defend VPW (who I say was a scum bag, I have plenty of first hand experience that you would refuse to believe)...?
I know that Dr had an old man nature that stunk (so does ours) and I also know that Dr was a very powerful intellect (sorry Zix), and that he was in a very powerful position, so it doesn?t surprise me that his old man COULD stink much more powerfully than ours at times. But then again, his ability to bless us was quite powerful too. I also know that on SOME occasions, his discipline of LEADERS may have been totally right on with God, but the reception of it by immature, insolent, and arrogant students was misunderstood and thought to be evil when it wasn?t. Yes, he also had sin in his life, but that has never stopped God from continuing His work with anyone, Dr/you/me, who comes back and restores fellowship.
****
You wrote: ?I've seen you refute the abuse claims...?
That?s an inaccurate observation. I don?t refute them, I ignore them WHEN it comes to my decision to master the PFAL books. I pay attention to them when I can help anyone who was abused, but I administer my help according to MY rules, and do not cater to demands like yours to not promote PFAL mastery to others. I separate Dr?s sin from the writings God gave him by revelation JUST LIKE I separate David and his abuse of Uriah (murder) from the revelation writings God gave him.
****
You wrote: ?I've seen you defend a ministry built on lies...?
It was NOT built on lies. Lies came in and contaminated a lot of things, especially by the mid 80?s. Your present impressions of it are built on lies and the kind of facts that God tells us to not dwell on.
****
You wrote: ?(it didn't snow that day in July, he didn't invent the hook shot, conceive McDonalds or ever receive a doctorate)?
The ministry was not built on these things. It was October, not July, but still that was not a building block, and it DID snow. Some very interesting things were posted on that snow AND his doctorate here this past year that I liked a lot. maybe I?ll re-post them.
Who cares about the hook shot or McDonalds? I don?t, so I?m not going to bother to search out where these TVTs came from.
The ministry was built on what God taught Dr and he taught us ESPECIALLY in book and magazine form.
*****
You wrote: ?I've seen you blame others for being "out of fellowship" and not listening to VPW when the king of being "out of fellowship" was Old Vic himself.?
Many things went wrong when we got out of alignment. Same with Dr because the Word says he had sin too. That still doesn?t invalidate God?s revelations to him. David was much more out of fellowship with his murder, AND he suffered consequences, but that STILL didn?t prevent God from giving him revelation.
If you think Dr?s sin prevented him from getting valid revelation, then be consistent and rip Psalms out of your Bible. Better include Solomon?s work too because he was worse.
You wrote: ?But you trying to tell me I wasn't faking it is the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said to me in my life. Straight up.?
Calm down and read it again. There?s no way you could have absorbed the details while in the state you describe.
****
You wrote: ?Two questions: 1. what could I ever say that would convince you I was faking it? Seriously. __ 2. I remember the Advance Class. Asking me if I remember what Vic ... said about Balaam is like asking me if I remember what he said about the bible in PFAL. Can you be more vague? Please, refresh my memory.?
(1.) Look at my response to JerryB. I qualified with MAYBE and SOME a lot. I don?t care if you were faking it 100% or 70% or 2% but I do see the POSSIBILITY that some wasn?t. If you don?t want to take it in the light of what Dovey said, and what was said to her by me and Jerry and Galen, then you probably don?t WANT to get your fakery percentage to a lower than 1% level, and my attempt to help you will not work. I?d like to see you consider that some was right some of the time and that you can improve on it, even radically improve on it like Dovey reported happened for her.
A lot of WHY I was so bold as to stand up to your statement of ?I faked it? is because of it?s affect on others. I think you wanted it to help kill their belief that they had it right. Tearing down believing in PFAL is par for the course here, and your tone seemed to say that you were trying to inject the same doubts in others.
I thank God I had the opportunity to type out all I did to you even if it doesn?t help you seek better operation of the manifestations. Many others feel the same way you do (I always saw them in my excellors sessions) so by offering my help to you, they overheard and can now start dealing with whatever percentage of fakery they think they inject or actually inject into their operations.
And now that I?ve gotten your attention in a MOST effective and memorable way, maybe next year you?ll come around and try to get it better.
Thank you for allowing me this soapbox.
****
(2) Here?s your answer to Dr?s teaching on Balaam:
ADVANCED CLASS TRANSCRIPTIONS
Session 20
BIBLICAL ILLUSTRATIONS OF REVELATION (Part-6 Num. 22-24)
I'd like for you to take your Bibles and, we're still dealing with
Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom, and again I want to show you
another great record from God's Word. I do not know of anything that is
more accurate to teach people the operation of manifestations than just
read the Word with you, just share the Word. 'Cause you're going to
have to see all of these things in the Word so you can inculcate them in
your life.
Numbers twenty two has a real interesting story, a lot of the
people think it ought to be developed sometime and put on T.V. or
somethin', I donno. It's another one of the great records in God's Word
that shows you the greatness of God and the greatness of the revelation.
'Cause I'm going to read with you and show you from the record; a man,
in my opinion, was crookeder than a dog's hind leg. Heh, heh, heh - ah,
a man who was just totally unworthy of receiving revelation, and yet,
somehow or other, when that revelation hit, he had enough sense left
sometime to listen to it. And I-I just want you to see the greatness of
it. So, I think the best thing to do is begin reading in chapter twenty
two. It says:
Numbers 22:1 And the children of Israel set forward, and [they] pitched
in the plains of Moab on this side Jordan. . .{by Jericho}.
I love all these little things in the Word, like these baseball
games - pitched, ya know, an' ah - heh-heh-heh, yeah. They tell the
story about why they didn't play cards on Noah's ark with all the time
they had is because Noah sat on the deck or somethin', (laughter) an' ah
I dunno. But I know verse two tells me where we got our zippers from
(laughter) . . . this fella:
22:2 {And} Balak the son of Zippor saw all that Israel had done
to the Amorites.
22:3 And Moab was sore afraid of the people, because they were
many: and Moab was distressed because of the children of
Israel.
22:4 And Moab said unto the elders of Midian, Now shall this
company lick up all that are round about us, as the ox
licketh up the grass of the field. . .
In other words, the children of Israel were causing no small stir
among the unbelievers. 'Cause the unbelievers had taken land and
property that didn't belong to them.
. . . [so] {And} Balak the son of Zippor was king of the
Moabites at that time.
You gotta keep him an' the next fella, Balaam, seperated. Balak,
the king of the Moabites,
22:5 [so] He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of
Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the
children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there
is a people come out from Egypt: {behold,} they cover the
face of the earth, and they abide over against me:
22:6 Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for
they are too mighty for me: . . .
You see, I can handle this section either from Word of Knowledge
an' Word of Wisdom, I could also handle it from Discerning of Spirits.
I choose to handle it in the Word of Knowledge and Wisdom. Although, as
I told my men in a meeting this morning, there aren't - there are lines
of demarcation that I see in the Word and teach, but you cannot separate
out any of the manifestations and then throw the rest out. They all fit
together for you have all nine abilities, potentials, latent within you,
all of them. So, Speaking in Tongues, is even very important for
operating, oh, the manifestation of Believing. Ah, Interpretation of
Tongues, an' Prophesies very important in the operation of Word of
Knowledge, Wisdom, all of those.
Here is a statement: "I pray thee, curse me this people;". . .
there is absolutely no question about it, that in the devil spirit
field, in the black arts, they do put the curse on people. They are
able and they do, at times, kill people, have them destroyed by spirit
power. So, this is what was in the mind of old Balak, he thought:
"Well, if I can get this man out there, he lives right at the border of
where (it told you the border of where he lived) an' right next to the
children of Israel there, an' he's part of the children of Israel, so to
speak, therefore, if I could get him convinced, he could put the curse
on the children of Israel that they couldn't whamp us - beat us up -
destroy us." So he said: "curse me this people; for they are too mighty
. . . {peradventure} [that] I shall prevail, that we may
smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for
I [know] {wot} that he whom thou blessest is [what?]
{blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed}.
Ha-hah-hah! That's quite a record! This Balak knew that this
Balaam, if he put the blessing on anything, it was blessed - and if old
Balaam said "Go fly a kite", they'd fly the kite, if they were cursed,
they were cursed - he knew this. So, he thought, if he could get that
fella over to his territory, he could encourage him to put the curse on
the children of Israel. So:
22:7 {And} the elders of Moab and the elders of Midian departed
with the rewards of divination {in their hand;} . . .
Ha-ha-hah, gifts - gifts, rewards of divination, gifts to be given
to those men who would - or man who would put the curse on 'em - fortune
telling stuff, you know, hah, pay-off.
. . . {and} they came unto Balaam, and spake unto him the
words of Balak.
And Balaam said, ah - hang in here tonight, lodge here tonight, and
I'll bring you word again as the Lord shall speak unto me. You know,
even sense knowledge wise, he-he could have immediately said; Look, men,
you're all screwed up - you're all wrong. Go on back, I'm not comin'.
But old Balaam had sort of a little crooked streak in him. He always
wanted to try to figure out how he could get a little more and squeeze
on God a little bit or something. So, he said: Fellas, just hang in
here overnight, tomorrow morning I'll let ya know. Ah, an the Lord
shall say - and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam.
{NUM 22:8 And he said unto them, Lodge here this night, and I
will bring you word again, as the LORD shall speak unto me:
and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam.}
22:9 And God came unto Balaam, and said, [Who are those fellas
you've got in here?] . . .
You know, God's sorta stupid - He didn't know. How -
. . . What men are these with thee?
22:10 And Balaam said unto God, [Oh, ah, ya know,] Balak the son of
Zippor, king of Moab, hath sent unto me, saying,
22:11 Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth
the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I
shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.
22:12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not [what?] go with them;
[Thou shalt not what? Go with them] thou shalt not curse the
people: for they are [what?] {blessed.} Huh-huh!
And Balaam rose up . . . now ya got revelation: Word of Knowledge,
Word of Wisdom.
22:13 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and said unto the princes
of Balak, Get you into your land: for the LORD refuseth to
give me leave to go with you.
22:14 And the princes of Moab rose up, and they went unto Balak,
and said, Balaam refuseth to come with us.
22:15 And Balak [the king of Moab] sent yet again princes, more,
and more honourable {than they.}
Ya know, protocol. He's now up to, I imagine, about a two star
general. He's sending that caliber. He started out with what ever's
below that someplace, then protocol ya know.
22:16 And they came to Balaam, [verse 16] and said to him, Thus
saith Balak the son of Zippor, Let nothing, I pray thee,
hinder {thee} from coming unto me:
22:17 For I will promote thee unto very great [what?] {honour,}. . .
See, that's always one of the great catches. The adversary will
always keep throwing it at people. They'll throw the sense knowledge
world promotion at ya. And that's exactly, ya know, he's gonna dump
money on him, property, all of that stuff.
. . . and I will do whatsoever thou sayest unto me: come
therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people.
22:18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If
Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I
cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or
more.
Sense knowledge wise, ya know, he could really blow it. But when
he had revelation, if he told the revelation, class, if he declared the
revelation, the revelation would always be right. No matter how wrong
the man was in his walk. If you were dead drunk today, with a quart of
whiskey hanging off of the side of your belt, born again of God's
spirit, filled with the spirit, and if God would give you revelation,
the revelation you would declare would be absolute truth. Your walk of
life is something else. This is why I say revelation, most unlikely
place, unlikely time, I don't know how it always happens this way and
how it works this way but, that's the way it is. The revelation is
always genuine.
Now I know what I've said has disturbed some of your minds, so I'd
better restate it, Father says. Look, being drunk is sin, right? But,
suppose you had a very, very bad thought, contrary to the Word of God,
what's that? (sin) O.K., so no grades of sin with God. Who's gonna
point the first finger? Not me. I don't understand, you know, I just
know if you're in alignment and harmony, it's one thing, but I also know
a man can be out of alignment at what the world would call a little out
of alignment. There is nothing like that, you're either out of
alignment or you're not out of alignment, right? It's not a little out,
ya know, it's like being a little pregnant and not pregnant - so,
(laughter). Terrible illustration. Anyways, that's the truth.
22:19 Now therefore, I pray you, tarry ye also here this night,
that I may know what the LORD will say unto me more.
Screwball! Should have stuck by the original revelation. Matter-
of-fact, he didn't need any revelation to begin with, 'cause he knew, he
was a prophet, he knew God spoke to him. Therefore, he should have sent
the men back the first time, but he didn't. Then God gave him
revelation, now, ya see, he's trying his best to wiggle out of this
thing so he can go over there to Balak and get paid. He wants C.I.F.,
Cash In Fist, or property, he wants something he's after. So he said;
ah, maybe the Lord will say to me a little more. And it's real neat
because God did come and talk to him further that night:
22:20 {And God came unto Balaam at night}, and said unto him, If the
men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the
word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou [what?]{do}.
Which seems to be an apparent contradiction between the revelation
given at first - ah, where was that? "Thou shalt not go with them." in
verse 12, right? Now, it seems in verse 20, God has changed His mind,
God has changed His mind, He says: "Rise up, go with them; but yet the
word which I shall say unto thee, that shall thou [what?] do." Now, God
didn't change, but there's a phrase in there that the critics never see,
and the phrase is: "If the men come to call thee", if the men come to
call thee. God knew, all the time, the men were not going to come to
call him because, the moment this statement was made, old Balaam, in
verse 21, didn't wait on the men to come to call him;
22:21 {And} Balaam rose up in the morning, [bright and early, the
men never came, he] {and} saddled his [stupid] ***, and went
with the princes of Moab.
There it is, he never waited. It's about like Paul, in one sense,
in the epistles, or Acts, remember? Revelation: "Don't go to Jerusalem,
don't go to Jerusalem", but Paul wanted to go where? (Jerusalem) Oh,
Balaam wanted to go see Balak so bad, he could taste it. So, he goes to
God and he says; Lord, can I go? the Lord said NOPE! Then he goes back,
ya know, and keeps working, and the Lord said; if the men come, you can
go. He never waited for the men to come, he just saddled his stupid
***, got up bright and early, loaded 'er up, went over to see the fellas
and he said; Fellas, I'm ready to go, I got the go sign.
22:22 And God's anger was [what?] {kindled} [why?] {because he
went}: . . .
Because there were no men that came to see him, he did not carry
out what God had told him, didn't carry it out. So, God was "T'd-off"
in verse 22, because he what?, went. You see, there's no contradiction
in the Word, you understand?, none what-so-ever. But,
. . . {and} the angel of the LORD [ha-ha-hah!] stood in the
way [see, he was in the way, the angel of the Lord, all along]
for an adversary against [balaam] {him}. . .
Now old Balaam was riding along, singing his song, ya know, bright
and early; "Good morning, Lord, good morning", hah-ha-hah (laughter).
And he's riding along upon his ***, and his two servants were with him.
They were living it up, ya know, having a great time, old Balaam's - I
can just see how his mind would go, he'd say; "Boy, I gonna get up
there, I'll tell Balak - I-I'll get everything Balak's got, and then
we'll go up and, if it's possible, if God shows me what's gonna happen
to the children of Israel, I'll tell old Balak, then I'll get more money
two men, having a great time, ya know, listening to all of his own
thoughts, and ah, twenty three:
{. . . Now he was riding upon his ***, and his two servants
were with him.}
22:23 {And} thearsssaw the angel of the LORD . . .
Not Balaam, he didn't see nothing (ha-ha-ha), a stupid old ***, ya
know, he's riding along, there he goes down the isle, ya know, and ah,
Balaam riding along with his two buddies and, that oldarsslooks up
there and he sees the angel of the Lord,
. . . standing in the way, and [the angel of the Lord had] his
sword drawn in his hand: and thearssturned aside out of the
way, and went into the field: . . .
Gonna eat himself a little grass, ya know, - not smoke it, but eat
it, and he was (laughter) He saw the angel of the Lord, with the sword
drawn, so he just see-sawed off to the right and started nibbling on the
grass.
. . . and Balaam smote the ***, . . .
He socked it to her with his whip and he kicked her in the ribs
with his spurs.
. . . to turn her into the way.
22:24 But the angel of the LORD [verse 24] stood in a path of the
vineyards, [a narrower way] a wall being on this side, and a
wall [where?] {on that side}.
22:25 And when thearsssaw the angel of the LORD, she thrust
herself unto the wall, and crushed [old] Balaam's foot against
the wall: and [he really socked it to her] he smote her again.
And you know, I mean, he really laid the timber to her, hit her. I
think he was thinking about using a two by four between her ears to get
her attention or somethin'. But,
22:26 {And} the angel of the LORD went [down a little] further, and
stood in a {narrow} [narrower] place, where was no way to turn
either to the right hand or to [what?] {the left}.
22:27 And when thearsssaw the angel of the LORD, she fell down
under Balaam: and [old] Balaam's anger was kindled, and he
smote thearsswith a staff. [beat the "H" out of it.]
22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ***, and she said unto
Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me
these three times?
Ha-ha-ha-hah, oh, that's the first time one dumbarsswas talking to
another one, ha-ha-ha! Oh, and then he, ya know, he's riding along and
all at once she caves in under him, and he hits the "H" out of her, he
says; "What in the Hell ya do that for me for?" and thearsslooks around
and says "What the Hell you mean?" (laughter) Oh, my! That must have
been a very intelligent conversation going on there. Thearsssaid;
"What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me three times?"
22:29 And Balaam said unto the ***, [ha-ha-hah (more laughter)]
Because [you made a fool of me, you] {thou hast} mocked me: I
[wish] {would} there were a sword in mine hand, [i'd kill ya,
you old bird!] {for now would I kill thee}.
22:30 And the arss said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ***, [you
wouldn't kill me, oh you've ridden upon me] {upon which thou
hast ridden} ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever
[accustomed or] wont to do so unto thee? [And Balaam said,
No. ah-hah-ha-ha] {And he said, Nay}.
I don't know if they still do, but, they have a - once upon a time,
I think, they had a talking mule on TV or a talking horse or somethin'.
They must have read the story, see - ha-ha! Oh, I think it's great,
it's neat!
22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, [verse 31] and he saw
the angel of the LORD standing in the way, {and} his sword
drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, [this is old
Balaam] {and} fell flat on his face.
22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou
smitten thine arssthese three times? behold, I went out to
withstand thee, because thy way is perverse [wrong] before me:
22:33 {And} [but] thearsssaw me, and turned from me these three
times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had
slain thee, and [i'd have] saved her {alive}. (laughter)
That's a pretty low opinion of a man of God, isn't it? He'd save
the stupidarssand kill him.
22:34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned;
[man, I've sinned, I've just sinned, I've just sinned] for I
knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: . . .
Ya see, he'd have kept right on going. He never dreamed that
there'd be anything hindering him.
. . . now therefore, if [it'll "T" ya off] {it displease
thee}, [i'll go back home, now] {I will get me back again}.
"I've sinned, I got caught, now, ya know, I really feel bad. If you
don't mind, if it's O.K., you want me to go back, I'll go back."
22:35 {And} [but] the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with
the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that
thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
22:36 And when Balak heard that Balaam was come, he went out to
meet him . . .
Ya know, lot different than the man of God sitting in his kitchen
and having another cup of tea, remember? Yeah, Naaman. Balaam, when
he, when Balak finds out he's coming, he goes out to meet him, rolls out
the red carpet.
{unto a city of Moab, which is in the border of Arnon, which
is in the utmost coast.}
22:37 And Balak [verse 37] said unto Balaam, Did I not earnestly
send unto thee to call thee? wherefore camest thou not unto
me? [the first time I sent somebody?] am I not able {indeed}
to promote thee to honour?
22:38 And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I
now any power at all to say any thing? [here it is:] the word
that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I [what?] speak.
22:39 And Balaam went with Balak, and they came unto [this town,]
{Kirjathhuzoth}.
22:40 And Balak offered oxen and sheep, {and} sent to Balaam, {and}
to the princes that were with him.
22:41 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Balak took Balaam,
and brought him up into the high places of [devils] Baal . . .
Brought him up into the high places of Baal. Where all those pagan
god statues were and stuff, where they worship.
. . . that thence he might see the [uttermost] {utmost} part
of the people.
That he could give a good look over, get a good perspective of the
situation.
23:1 And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and
prepare me here seven oxen and seven rams.
23:2 And Balak did as Balaam had spoken; and Balak and Balaam
offered on every altar a bullock and a ram. [verse 3:]
23:3 And Balaam said unto Balak, Stand by thy burnt offering, and I
will go: peradventure [maybe, perhaps] the LORD will come to
meet me: and whatsoever he sheweth me [or shows to me or tells
me] I will tell [you] {thee}. And he went to an high place.
23:4 And God met Balaam: [God meeting Balaam simply means
revelation.] and he said unto him, [revelation] I have
prepared seven altars, [and so forth - offered] {and I have
offered upon every altar a bullock and a ram}.
23:5 And the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth, [that's revelation]
and said, Return unto Balak, and thus thou shalt speak.
23:6 And he returned unto him, and, lo, he stood by his burnt
sacrifice, he, and all the princes of Moab.
23:7 [verse seven] And he [balaam] took up his parable, . . .
Took up his parable simply means that he spoke to Balak and to the
princes that Balak had there the revelation that God had given him.
That's the meaning of the word "parable". He took up his parable, he
took up the words that God had shown him or told him, he told the king,
. . . {and said,} Balak the king of Moab hath brought me [forth]
from Aram [syria], out of the mountains of the east, saying,
Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.
Here, in verse 8, is the great revelation.
23:8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not [what?] cursed? or how
shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied? [verse 9:]
23:9 For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I
behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be
reckoned among the nations.
What a fantastic revelation. Coming out of the mouth of a man who
is crookeder than a dog's hind leg, where thearsssaw more than the man
of God did. And even unto this day, Israel has never been numbered
among the nations - the word "nations" is Gentiles. And I'm not
speaking of the one Israel that's over in the "Bible lands" now, they're
counterfeit. Ah, you know, you don't go to the Bible lands or get
possessing the earth that's the Lord's which He gave to the rightful
children of Israel, you don't get that by a white paper in Great Britain
and the finances of the United States to carry it out. The record of
the Word tells you how, finally, they go back. So it's still future.
You need to read a book on - I don't know the name of it anymore -
"The Thirteenth Tribe" or somethin', see. Years ago, I wrote, long
before I knew any of those books an stuff, I wrote about Jesus Christ
not being a Jew, see, and everybody thought I was nuts. But then we
find the great scholars coming along today and they're just saying what
I put in a little 20 page booklet, they take 400 pages now to say it,
but knew it all the time, see. Well, you aught to read that "Thirteenth
Tribe" or what ever it is - blow your mind.
Another book you should read is "The Myth of the Six Million" that
the Germans incarcerated during the war. Great publicity to keep
Christians supporting the so called "Children of Israel" that are there
today. Ah, it's a bunch of damned lies, see. And a lot of that stuff,
it's just lies upon lies so you can get money and keep support and get
armament, really somethin'.
The greatest book along that line, of course, was just recently
written by Dr. Butz who was a professor at Northwestern University. I
understand that the pressure has been so upon him that, they either have
or are releasing him. You see, there are just so many, many things
happening or have happened, that only if you know God's Word and are
able to rightly divide it, will you ever be able to understand some of
the things.
Now I have absolutely no dislike for anybody, Jews, Gentiles or
anybody else. I have no race prejudices, I have no country prejudices,
(- thank-you, you can take that) therefore, things that I say to you are
not out of my prejudiced mind. This revelation that God gave Balaam is
right-on. They shall not be reckoned among the nations. Verse ten:
23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth
part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let
my {last} end be like his!
You see, they could be counted, but it's a figure of speech of an
enormous group of people.
23:11 And Balak said unto Balaam, What hast thou done unto me? I
took thee [and brought thee up here] to curse mine enemies,
and, behold, [all] thou hast [done is you've just] blessed
them {altogether}.
23:12 And [balaam] {he} answered and said, Must I not take heed to
speak that which the LORD hath put in my [what?] mouth?
23:13 And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto
another place, from whence thou mayest see them: . . .
[better]
Ah, maybe ya didn't see 'em good enough this first time, I'm gonna
take ya up a little higher so you can
. . . {thou shalt} see {but} the [uttermost] {utmost} part of
them, {and shalt not see them all}: and curse me them from
[there] {thence} [O.K.?].
23:14 And [so] he brought him into the field of Zophim, to the top
of Pisgah [a mountain], and [there he] built seven altars, and
offered a bullock and a ram on every altar.
23:15 And [balaam] {he} said unto Balak, Stand here by thy burnt
offering, while I meet the Lord yonder.
23:16 And the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and
said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus.
23:17 And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt
offering, and the princes of Moab with him. . .
And they were just sure they were gonna get the children of Israel
cursed this time.
. . . And Balak said unto him, What hath the LORD spoken?
23:18 And he [balaam] took up his parable [the revelation], and
said, Rise up, Balak, and hear [get your "earballs" open,
Balak]; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor:
23:19 God is not a man [look at the revelation], that he should
[what?] lie; neither the son of man, [that God has to repent]
that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he [what?] not
do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
[see, Word of God's the Will of God].
23:20 Behold, I have received commandment to bless: . . .
That was the revelation, no curse, but do what? Bless! And he
tells old Balak, looks him straight in the eye and says; that's what I
gotta do.
. . . and he [God] hath blessed; and I [can't] {cannot}
reverse it. [no matter what I say]
23:21 He hath not beheld iniquity in [israel] {Jacob}, . . .
Oh, my God, what a revelation! - Jacob - . . . has not beheld
iniquity in Jacob. And the word "Jacob" means "surplanter". That's the
meaning of the word; one who beats somebody else, one who's a little
shady all the time, a little on the crooked side, if you like that
better. And God said: "I just haven't beheld any iniquity in Jacob.
That's what you call God closin' His eyeballs!
. . . neither hath he seen [wrong] {perverseness} in Israel: . . .
Oh, my God! With all the wrong things they did, here it says God
didn't what? See it - that's got to be grace, people. Grace existed
long before this administration, I trust you know that.
. . . the LORD his God is with [Jacob/Israel] {him}, . . .
You see, Jacob He didn't see, it's surplanter, Israel means "one
favored of God". And even in Israel, they blew it. They were off, yet
God refused to see it. And then this great statement:
. . . {and} the shout of a king is among them.
This prophecy, regarding the coming of the lord Jesus Christ,
coming out of the mouth of Balaam is just, sense knowledge wise,
unbelievable. If it was written any other place than in God's Word, I
wouldn't believe it, I don't think. But being in God's Word, it's true.
But I understand revelation. Golly!
23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; [verse 22:] he hath as it were
the strength of [a wild ox] {an} unicorn. [Look at verse 23:]
23:23 Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, . . .
No hooky-pookism, no spiritualism - you can't put the curse upon
him, you can't put the hex on him.
. . . neither is there any divination against Israel: . . .
People, if you can't put the hex on servants, if you cannot in Old
Testament here, where God said you just can't put the hex on a servant,
and there is no divination, no spiritualist, nobody that can make the
pendulum swing in your clock when it's standing still, there is no way
whereby faces can appear in your bedroom at night, shake your bed -
there is no way whereby you can hear voices - from the wrong source, no
way whereby levitation occurs in front of you, or a guy floats out of
one window and floats in another one - which has happened. There is no
divination, class, even upon Jacob, and he was a surplanter, but God's
hand was still on him, and he became Israel, favored of God.
There absolutely is no divination. Then what in the "H" are you
afraid of? Born again, sons of God, you've heard yourselves speak in
tongues. Why are you still full of fear? And some of you in the
Advanced Class are because of your background: you've been mediums;
you've been spiritualists; you've been to seances, you're still afraid
of hearing a voice coming into your room at night or seeing someone
appear at the foot of your bed. Why, people - when are you ever going
to believe God's Word?
You can run fifty million black cats across in front of my car, it
don't bother me a bit. I run over every damn one that gets in the way!
(laughter) Walk underneath a ladder - bad luck - well bless God, set up
a ladder and walk under it all day, back and forth - if you have to, to
prove to yourself that as a son of God, there is no enchantment, there
is no divination, there is nobody can put the hex on you. They can make
a doll out of you and push pins in it from here to Europe and back,
that's not gonna touch you, it's not gonna hurt you! When are you gonna
believe God! (applause)
But, if they got fear in you, then you're not in alignment and
what? (harmony) And that's why you're headed the road of Balaam, and
if that dumbarssdon't fall under you, the sword's gonna kill you - you
are going to die and the spiritualists will do it. It's as simple as
all that.
Well, there's the sound of a king. Verse 24:
23:24 Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up
himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of
the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.
23:25 And Balak said unto [him: Shut-up! Shut-up! Don't you curse
them at all nor bless them. It's better just to keep it
cool. If you're not gonna curse 'em, shut-up.] {Balaam,
Neither curse them at all, nor bless them at all.}
23:26 But Balaam answered and said unto Balak, Told not I thee,
saying, All that the LORD speaketh, that I must do?
And Balak said; O.K., I pray thee, I'm gonna take you up a little
higher - heh, sure workin' him over, ain't it?
23:27 {And Balak said unto Balaam, Come, I pray thee, I will bring
thee unto another place; peradventure} it will please God that
thou mayest curse me them from [there] {thence}.
23:28 And Balak brought Balaam [up to] {unto} the top of Peor, that
looketh toward [this town] {Jeshimon}.
23:29 And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and
prepare me here seven bullocks and seven rams.
23:30 And Balak did as Balaam had said, and offered a bullock and a
ram on every altar. [Chapter 24:]
NUM 24:1 And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel,
he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments . . .
Ha-hah, every time he went up there, he was hoping that he would be
given the clue, like the spiritualists were, that something would happen
where he could sneak in. Crooked! Damn it, he was crooked! One would
have thought he'd have learned his lesson on the road down there
confronted with that jack-***! But it seems man forgets very quickly.
24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in
his tents according to their tribes; and [then] the spirit of
God came [what?] upon him [again].
24:3 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor
hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
24:4 He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the
vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his
eyes [what?] {open}: [He saw it by revelation.]
24:5 How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O
Israel! [There's the prophecy - eh, the revelation.]
24:6 As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the
river's side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath
planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters.
24:7 He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall
be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and
his kingdom shall be exalted.
24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the
strength of an unicorn [a wild ox]: he shall eat up the
nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce
them through with his arrows.
24:9 He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who
shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and
cursed is he that [what?] {curseth thee}.
Anyone that blesses you, people, as sons of God, that person
blessing you, will be blessed. And if any stupid fool tries to put the
curse on you, they're the ones that are gonna get it, not you! That's
the Word (applause) that's right. That's how it happens.
24:10 And Balak's anger was kindled against Balaam, and he smote
his hands together: and Balak said unto Balaam, I called thee
to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast altogether
blessed them these three times.
24:11 Therefore now flee . . .
See, that's man again. See, flee, ya know, he's gonna now, you
know, sock it to him.
. . . {thou to thy place:} I thought to promote thee unto
great honour; but, lo, the LORD hath kept [this honour back
from thee] {thee back from honour}.
What a bunch of junk, huh? Blaming God for keeping the blessing
off of Balaam.
24:12 And Balaam said unto Balak, Spake I not also to thy
messengers which thou sentest unto me, saying,
24:13 If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I
cannot go beyond the commandment of the LORD, to do either
good or bad of mine own mind; [here it is:] but what the LORD
saith, that will I [what?] {speak}?
No matter how badly he wanted all of those other things, when he
had revelation, when he spoke the revelation, the revelation was right-
on. "I cannot go beyond what the Lord saith".
24:14 And now, behold, I go unto my people [i'm going back to
Israel, to my people, Israel]; come therefore [balak], and I
will advertise thee . . .
He's going to make a display ad for him now, heh-heh. He's gonna
advertise him. And he's gonna show him
. . . what this people [israel is going to] {shall} do to
[his] {thy} people [balak's people] in the latter days.
24:15 And he [balaam] took up his parable, and said, {Balaam the son
of Beor hath said, and} the man whose eyes are open {hath
said}: [verse 16:]
24:16 He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the
knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the
Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
[Here's seventeen: Shout of a king among them, now watch this
edition:]
24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not
[immediately] {nigh}: [but] there shall come a Star out of
[what?] {Jacob}, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and
shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children
of Sheth.
This not only was regarding the deliverance at that time but it was
beyond that, because the Star out of Jacob and the Scepter out of Israel
is the lord Jesus Christ. Came out of the mouth of a man who was
crookeder than a dog's hind leg.
24:19 Out of Jacob [verse 19] shall come he that shall have
dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
24:20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and
said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end
shall be that he perish for ever.
24:21 And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, . . .
24:23 And he took up his parable [again in verse 23], and said,
Alas, who shall live when God doeth this!
Then, verse 25:
24:25 {And} Balaam rose up, and went and returned to his place: and
Balak also went [back to] his {way}.
Really something, isn't it? Really something! Hmm - look at
chapter 31. Ah, by the way, chapter 25 precedes 31 and sometime you
really aught to read through all of these chapters with what I'm
teaching you and just watch how all of this stuff develops. In chapter
25 it says:
Num. 25:1 And Israel abode in ****tim, and the people began to commit
whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
See, that did not mean physical, sexual acts. What it meant is
that the men of the children of Israel married Moabite women, and the
women brought with them the worship of their pagan gods. That's why
it's whoredoms. Whoredoms. I forget which prophet it was, - one of the
prophets, God told him to marry a whore. I forget who that was - who?
That's right, Hosea. Can ya imagine God tellin' a man of God ta shack
up with a whore?
Ya see, God is so fantastic an the things that people get all
messed up with God doesn't but He simply proved to Israel that they were
whoring around because they had other gods. They had other gods! And
the greatest amount of whoredom in the Word of God is to have any other
god but the one true God. They had other gods! And the reason ya have
other gods is because people worshipped them.
That's why the Word teaches that a believer aught to marry a
believer. And don't go marrying an unbeliever whose promised you he's
gonna take the class and change his life after you get married.
(applause) Really somethin', kids.
25:2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods:
and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
25:3 And [then] Israel joined {himself unto Baalpeor:} and the
anger of the LORD was kindled against [what?] {Israel}.
See, anger of the Lord was kindled against the children of Israel.
The anger of the Lord gets kindled against The Way people today, if ya
shack-up with other gods, if ya worship other gods, if ya run around at
these seance meetings or the Edgar Casey junk or the Jeannie Dixon junk,
or ya go to the places with bells in the steeples or somethin' where the
Word of God is hashed to pieces, God'll take His hand off of you. Well,
I don't know. Chapter 31, verse one:
Num. 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward
shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
And that is showing Moses that he's going to die. I think He
showed this to Peter or someone, didn't He when he said: "I must shortly
lay off this tabernacle". Revelation - pre-death revelation, knowing
that you're just sorta winding up your life here upon earth.
31:4 [and] {Of} every tribe . . .
31:5 So there were delivered [verse 5] out of the thousands of
Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for
war.
31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe,
{them} and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, {to the
war,} with the holy instruments, {and} the trumpets to blow in
his hand.
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded
Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of [what?] Midian, beside the rest of
them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and
Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: [and who else?] Balaam
also the son of Beor they slew with [what?] {the sword}
.
Slew him, that's how he died. Sort of a sad ending to a man who
had the spirit of God on him, isn't it? Really. But it's sort of a sad
ending to the life of the church of the body in which you and I live
today to see men and women who have been exposed and have the greatness
of the revelation of God's Word made known unto them and then to go
back.
Sometimes I think, perhaps, words from the gospels would be very
apropos; it would have been better for them had a mill stone been hung
about their neck than they should suffer or cause one of these little
ones to go astray. But I don't run that side of the world. I feel
sorry for people, like I assume, children of Israel felt sorry for
Balaam. But when a man wills to walk away and he walks away, he'll pay
a high price.
Today, not everybody gets killed, if you have revelation, you can
turn him over to the adversary, but - if you don't have, they just live.
But, people, they will be held accountable to God at the gathering
together, the same as all men will, 'cause all men are going to appear
before God. Dead in Christ first, all of that, to receive rewards,
crowns - rewards, others in judgment.
No man can walk for any other man, but I think this Advanced Class
is a tremendous time to make a decision that's non-reversible, one that
you will never reverse on, and that is; "As long as you live upon this
earth, from now on, or until the return of Christ, you just never back-
up on God's Word. And never try to handle it deceitfully, nor allow
devil spirits or anything else to come into your life or body to control
you. Or to speak disrespectful about God and His Word. Or to try to
touch the Apple of God's Eye by you being so wonderful." I think you
have to come to the place, if you really want God's blessing upon your
life, to just stay put, and declare what the Word says.
You're born again, and I know it, I heard ya speak in tongues and
that's the proof, that's why I know you can get revelation as long as
you live. But, man, if you're out in left field, and the adversary
begins to use you, and especially should you allow yourself to become
possessed in your mind by a devil spirit, you can just rack and ruin the
body of Christ, you can do what I said the other night or yesterday
afternoon; A man can tear something down very quickly, which takes a
long time to build. I think I talked about cutting trees down, I did,
on the campus. I could cut those trees down in a couple of minutes,
that took hundreds of years to grow to the beauty of it.
So, God, the true God, will continue to bless and no enchantment
can touch you, unless you open to it by your will, you make a decision
to listen to the adversary, you decide to hear what they have to say,
'cause it's coming through the mouth of your best friends who are like
jack-asses. Who just feed back to you - they're your best friends, many
times it's husband, wife, ancestors, relatives, some prominent political
man or religious leader, they tell you these things and then you listen
to 'em, but what they say is contrary to the Word. And they'll take you
down, people, you'll go down with them. And then you speak badly of the
greatness of the revelation of God, or men and women who have endeavored
to stand for the greatness of that. And you're the one that's going to
be the loser.
So, if I were you, I'd make up my mind, I'd live for God and the
greatness of God and His Word, from this day forward and I just let
everything else in God's judgment. But I would not ever listen to devil
spirits or people who say things that are absolutely contrary to God's
Word. I'd stand up to 'em and say: "Look, that's not what the Word
says!" I think you are God's people to do it. And I'd like to say to
you, if you don't do it, there is no hope left. There is no other way
to go than the Word, people, and revelation is available to every one of
you. But I want you to reap the rewards, the blessings of God
throughout all eternity, for the faithfulness of your walk, and the
right dividing of the Word while you're here. For that, you're going to
be rewarded before God throughout all eternity. And eternity's a lot
longer than the fifty, sixty, seventy years here upon earth. And if I
were you, I'd make that commitment today. O.K.? That's it.
END OF SEGMENT 20
[This message was edited by Mike on January 10, 2004 at 3:21.]
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Georgio Jessio
"my attempt to help you will not work."
Wow. Holy arrogant. I don't need your help! I'm fine. You don't know me, what my beliefs are or anything else about me. All you know about me is that I am exTWI and I think Vic was a criminal. The difference between David and Vic is that I don't believe that God worked in Vic. He was a charlatan, a hoaxical plagiarizer and a fraud.
"A lot of WHY I was so bold as to stand up to your statement of ?I faked it? is because of it?s affect on others. I think you wanted it to help kill their belief that they had it right. Tearing down believing in PFAL is par for the course here, and your tone seemed to say that you were trying to inject the same doubts in others."
Again you don't know me or my intentions or my tone. I am not trying to tear down anyone's believing. Believe what you want, I don't give a rat's a**. All I was doing was being honest and trying to see if others felt the same way. The truth can set you free, especially when one has been living with a burdensome secret that carries doubt and shame along with it. The weight that was lifted from me when openly admitted I was faking it was tremendous. It took alot for me to say that because it was admitting that I lived a lie for many many years. Now you're idea of helping me is to do the very thing you accuse me of: you're trying to kill MY beliefs and place that lie right back on my shoulders. A classic Way tactic.Good thing I know better, good thing I know I was faking it.
And as far as Vic's "old man nature" goes: I don't know or care if you think there are degrees of sin. But my old ma nature is to have one too many beers and tell the occasional white lie. But I would never dream of using and twisting scripture to convince women to sleep with me and talk people into giving me their money and dedicating their lives to my alternative teachings.
But thanks for the help.
Glow-ry!
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excathedra
lashanta longogitsomi postidio muchoosheo
my children your posts are much too long
?
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CKnapp3
Mike, you said:
"Thomas was reproved for so heavily relying on what he saw."
Mike, I don't believe I'm worthy of the kind of reproof Thomas got from Jesus. Thomas wanted to believe Jesus was alive but for whatever reason didn't. Also Thomas considered himself a friend of Jesus. Otherwise Thomas' response would have been one of apathy rather than doubt. Unlike you, I'm not concerned about such things as eternal life, because I don't need it for one thing. When I die, I expect to lose consciousness (or have you rejected VPW's teaching that the soul dies?). The only difference is I don't expect to be resurrected (and if it means being resurrected unto something horrible, why would God do something evil like that? I sure as hell don't deserve that kind of experience!). If I were to get the same resurrection unto something good, I guess it wouldn't bother me.
Also, I don't believe Jesus is coming back. I would not be offended or otherwise disturbed however if it turned out I was wrong in my asserstions, and Jesus did in fact return, as long as he turns out to be a swell guy. I would be angry to find Jesus turns out to be a tyrannical a$$hole though, no better or perhaps worse than the Satan whose propositions he rejected.
Also what other teachings of VPW have you held onto? According to VPW, and I guess the Word of God if VPW was straight forward about it, you and I are brothers in Christ, regardless of what I now believe or at least question, and what you may believe or otherwise hold in opinion about me.
I really don't want to engage too much into pointless arguments however. I respect your opinions as long as you respect mine (If you believe in "burn forever in hell" however, I may have an axe to grind with ya there
:D-->)
I don't need no stinkin' crown!
Chuck
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Apples and oranges Steve. The verses and examples I posted dealt with a person hearing the manifestation of speaking in tongues in the context of the preaching of the gospel; like your first example of the evangelist and the reactions of the crowd. Your experience with the child is completely different. The mother didn't hear you speaking in tongues and the benefit of intercession is not a sign to unbelievers, it's intercession. In the example you mentinoed, the benefit was that you were able to tell her what to do for the child.
I have been told repeatedly that when I intercede for my friend, it works. So he always asks me to pray for specific things. I never do. I just speak in tongues for him. Is that proof that I have holy spirit, etc. No, it's intercession. The benefit of intercession is answered prayer.
Peace
JerryB
***
Apples and oranges Jerry for sure. I do dig both crates full!!! No doubt about that.
But what is the proof that sit is for real whether it's doing one thing or 10 others? I have none. "The Bible says" is no more proof than JRRT's Middle Earth. And that is what I am being honest with in my life. I am not saying that you are being dishonest, but that I am being honest with my thoughts and my understanding of what I see and have experienced as far as a faith based life and you yours.
I pray for someone and that person recieves the benefit of answered prayer... i just do not understand that... i used to think i did... but it does not make sence to me anymore. It sounds like 2+2=4.00000000001. Just that little infitesimal edge needed to accept it by faith.
The child had cholic. The mother was frustrated. The child picks up on the stress with great distress and the mother is calling me instead of medical attention. I am under no stress from the whole scene and the child apparently goes to sleep because i silently sit? Facetiously....Oh, now i know... it was word of knowlege and word of wisdom coupled with beleiving and gifts of healing and the spice that got it going was SIT.... 5 out of 9 is pretty good spiritually.
:D--> The child actually & finally gets relief from proper medical diagnosis.
I suppose it's beating a dead horse to death.
Grace & Peace
StevenH
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
lashanta longogitsomi postidio muchoosheo
my children your posts are much too long
***
Lolshanta roflmao rok n rollalala la la la funnierio
Laughing with my children ... does anybody remember laughter ...
***
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on January 10, 2004 at 21:14.]
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excathedra
i do my child
;)-->
?
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Jbarrax
I can fully understand your point about the mother and the child story Steve. In that particular intance, it's very gray. There may or may not have been any spiritual element to that solution. What I am saying is that there are many others that are much clearer and these do confirm the truth of the gospel of Christ. I'm going to venture a tad bit off topic here to relate one. I beg the indulgence of the thread police.
I was born with a myriad of allergies and respiratory problems that plagued my youth. One was ashthma. Cold weather was one trigger. Often an onset of bitter cold weather would incite an asthma attack that would have me bedridden and wheezing, struggling to breathe for days. When I was in college my fiancee (now my wife of 19 years) took the class and went WOW. To Cleveland. I went to visit her in January and suffered an asthma attack. As I lay on her couch wheezing, she ministered to me. As she prayed, my bronchial tubes opened as if God was breathing fresh air into my lungs. In a matter of seconds the attack ended and I have not had one since.
That's a clear miracle of healing and it reinforces the truth of the gospel because it was administered in the name of Jesus Christ by a believing Christian.
So I can't help you with the cholicy child incident. But I do see the miracles that God has blessed me with as validation of the gospel of Christ. Before I accepted Christ and made a commitment to Him, my life was powerless. Afterward, it was blessed with healings, miracles, inspired utterance, and lots and lots of grace. The same is true of my wife. We had dated for almost two years before she got witnessed to. She had some chronic physical problems and a lot of emotional/spiritual baggage from her youth. After she took the class, she was delivered of a lot of this. Not because PFAL is the worf of God as Mike believes, but because God meets people where they are. We were seeking and piffle was as close to a Church as we were willing to go, so God met us there and blessed us. To his credit "Docvic did teach us about speaking in tongues in such a way that some of us could believe it and manifest it. I think if the heart of the ministry weren't so corrupt, a lot more people would have had genuine manifestations, rather than being pressured to fake it.
I'm not saying you shouldn't question your faith. By all means do. That's how we grow.
I have jettisoned lots of TWI doctrine, and some Biblical doctrine. I'm still searching and learning. But despite the loss of the neat little box of answers that piffle used to be, I remain absolutely convinced that God is true, Christ has indeed redeemed me, both of them are rather fond of us, and that they will continue to meet us where we are as long as we continue to seek them with an honest heart.
Peace
JerryB
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Jerry,
You and I can go on with all kinds of experiences... beleive me as well as i beleive you those type of things...
eg My mom shortly after she was born had spinal menigitis which caused her to become "hard of hearing"...
she met my dad
Then i was born...
...for years i prayed for my mom's hearing to be restored...
... years later and $$$ much, she had an operation in California...
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Lightside
Hows the old boy doin'?
Expectin' the best....
Explain what you have seen.......
God has the authority to do what HE wants, even beyond our little faith.
Many of us thought that God only worked between our little earballs. OH, we were sooooooo wrong.
Share the news.......
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
..."I'm not saying you shouldn't question your faith. By all means do. That's how we grow.
I have jettisoned lots of TWI doctrine, and some Biblical doctrine. I'm still searching and learning. But despite the loss of the neat little box of answers that piffle used to be, I remain absolutely convinced that God is true, Christ has indeed redeemed me, both of them are rather fond of us, and that they will continue to meet us where we are as long as we continue to seek them with an honest heart. "
Peace
JerryB
*****
Jerry, I just read your post again. So very kewl that you were healed of your respiratory problems "in the name of Jesus Christ by a believing Christian." That is an extraordinary experience.
So many an experience we can count on to prove God is real or a validation of ones beleif in a "Christian" God. That is proof enough to validate a faith based life where there once was a powerless life. We all do evolve if we seek a power that we know is greater than our perception rather than just hang on to the old perceptions that the earth is the centre of the universe.
THE LEFT LEG:I am not suppose to have my left leg. Then I was not supposed to have my left knee cap.Then I was suppose to not be able to bend my left leg more than 10 degrees. Then I was suppose to not be able to squat. I would always walk with a limp and never run. The Bone Docs said my healing was extraordinary to them, like a miracle. And that was jUsT my left leg. I was called The Chariot Man. But ya know my Bone Man Nettles told me that he could not heal me, that he could only set the bones, and the healing would come. Now that is truth. Now what if I did not have a "Bone Man Nettles" and my healing took place without the bones being set, I suppose my bones would have healed deformed... maybe.
Here is another one. One morning I woke up early, yawned and sat on the edge of the bed and stretched. I slipped off the edge and ended on the floor with my right leg pinned like a chicken wing and my left leg straight out. My my my, how do I get myself into these awkward situations.
--> Oh that hurt... Well, I tried to get up. I could not. My wife was gone to work and would not be home for hours. I was trapped between the bed and the wall that led to the bathroom. I tried to push the king size bed with my back to give me room to get up. No budge. My right leg was going numb. I tried to get my elbows, hands, arms up on the bed to pull myself up,,, no reach, no leverage. The phone to my left on the night stand... could not bend enough to the side to reach. I was literally trapped... very very helpess... could not feel my chicken winged right leg ... what to do??? I was on the floor on my azz, my back against the bed, my right leg like a chicken wing laying flat on the floor... i became calm realising my silly accident and the seriousnes of my predicament... I tried all the aformentioned manuevers again and again and again with the same results of being trapped. Okay ... I prayed... "Uhm God... hey... uhm ya know I am here and ya see what's going on... can I get some help here."
And I just realised how helpless I was and just accepted the situation knowing that I would get out of it some how. Lo and behold, my numb right leg began to move of its own volition as I watched. My eyes were wide open such a display of involuntary movement that finally resulted in my right leg becoming parallel with my left and all feeling restored. I just simply cried silent tears on to my cheeks and got up and called my wife.
Jerry, I did not pray in the name of JC, but I was a born again Christain.
So many stories of such encounters with the 'miracle' realm eh!!! Makes me wonder why I still can not walk on the water even though I try every time I attend the beach.My wife laughs with and at me each endeavor the attempt to walk on water. So many experiences validates ones beliefs in a 'god' that is just beyond our finite understanding and beyond proof.
Grace & Peace & Rok On Man
StevenH
..."On a day like today, I pass the time away and walk a quiet mile with you..."
Led
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Jerry,
Just A Thot...
Ya know mabe we are just tapping into a resource that has always been within us since we were born... but how to utilise such a resource that has always been in our dna is just what I need to find out how to walk on the water.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
High Five's Lightside
pray lightly
Love,
Song
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